A DM in distress

[Viper700]

Okay, first off, i'm new to the whole posting thing so bare with me a bit and forgive my spelling. So I have been playing D&d for about 3 years now started with 2e and then began DMing 3.5e. My gaming group are some of my cloasest freinds but recently I've noticed a problem....

I game with 3 other people and for this post i'll name then PC1, PC2, and PC3.
They are great guys to game with but with vastly different styles of play. and it's getting harder to have balanced games.

PC1: Is a hardcore powergamer/rules lawyer that finds every combination of skills, classes, and race to create perfect killing machines. He lcaims that it's for pure flavor but his favorite character at lvl 5 had an AC in the 60's and was dealing almost 300 points of damage a round.:smallfrown:

PC2: puts alot of effort into his characters making back stories and flavor, then only wants to "punch face" throughout the whole game. For example:

Me: The knight says he wishes for you to accompany him on a journey for wealth and glory, but first you must meet with his king

PC2: Hulk smash knight!

I would also like to point out that his favored class is fighter and at lvl 15 is lucky to have a AC above 14. :smallamused:

And PC3: Similar to PC2 except that he puts a little more effort into roleplaying and tries to play out his charcters but isnt the best charcter builder.

It's also important to note that if PC1 stops playing then so does PC3 (don't ask why because IDK)

So does anyone have any ideas as to how I can help this party be more balanced and let everyone have fun?

Thanx in advance.

[Gandariel]

not that hard. give pc 2 and 3 better items and advice, ask pc 1 to pick a tier 4-5 class, and advice pc 2 and 3 to pick a tier 1-2-3 class...

[Volos]

First, you are in the wrong thread. This would probably go under roleplaying general rather than 3.5.

Second, you are facing a very common problem. There are different styles of players and of dungeon masters and when those different styles clash... groups can be split. No need to fear though. If you have access to the DMG II, I would suggest reading through it thoroughly. It has a whole chapter dedicated to explaining the different play styles and how to make a game that can mesh them together into a group of happy players rather than a drama explosion waiting to happen.

If you don't have access to the DMG II, I would suggest the following...

For PC1, point to him the part of the rules where it says that as the DM you can refuse him access to any race, class, feat, or even mundane item as you see fit. So he's using tons of different classes? Either tell him that those classes are not playable in your game/campaign, or that the multiclass penalites are too great and that you'd like his character to remain at/near the same level as the rest of the party. So he's using obscure feats? Limit him/everyone to core. Magic Items? Suddenly there aren't any casters who can/will make those items. If he cries foul and doesn't want to play, explain to him that broken characters make it harder for you to make the game fun for everyone.

For PC2, have him write a background for his character. Even if you have to fill in most of it for him or give him a basic shell of a background, do it. This is the easiest way to give depth to a character. Or have his character beat into submission by the next NPC he attacks without reason. Humbling him may also work.

For PC3, there isn't much of an issue there. Have PC1 help PC2 and PC3 build their characters (using a limited selection of races, classes, and feats) so that PC1 feels like he's contributing to the group's fun and the other two will feel like they can do something without having to leave it all to PC1.

[BlueInc]

not that hard. give pc 2 and 3 better items and advice, ask pc 1 to pick a tier 4-5 class, and advice pc 2 and 3 to pick a tier 1-2-3 class...

Trap. A low-optimized Wizard and Sorcerer will get smacked in the face every time.

Get the lower-powered player to use "hard to mess up" classes like Warblade and Druid. Also consider that different people have fun in different ways; if PC3 doesn't mind getting upstaged in combat (as long as he gets his roleplay time) then make enemies who are interesting as characters and hard to kill; PC1 and PC2 enjoy face-smashing time, PC3 enjoys verbal jousting with intelligent opponents.

Also, ask PC1 to play "support" classes that help others shine; a super-optimized bard or cleric will buff PC2 to that he will smash faces like the best of them.

[Gorgondantess]

For PC3, there isn't much of an issue there. Have PC1 help PC2 and PC3 build their characters (using a limited selection of races, classes, and feats) so that PC1 feels like he's contributing to the group's fun and the other two will feel like they can do something without having to leave it all to PC1.

I fully agree with this. Having PC1 help the other PCs optimize should do the trick pretty well.
Also, limit his options, don't just say "No, no, no", just because it's him asking. Also, 60 AC by level 5? That's a little iffy. I honestly don't know how he accomplished that, and I'd assume he's misinterpreting, deliberately or no, the rules. Could you post/link his character sheet? Or at least the important bits?
And, yeah, for PC2, make repercussions for his actions. If he wants to beat everyone up, soon enough he'll meet a bigger fish and get beaten up himself.

[Viper700]

First, Volos, thanks for the update as i said I'm still new to posting. I do have the DM guide 2 along with almost every other book out there for 3.5e and 3e.

Gorgondantess, I was simply explaining how overpowered his characters become, in all honesty he didnt get his ac 60 till like level 9 or 10, it was some kind of build with Vow of poverty, Vow of peace build with a cleric and really pissed off PC2 because the whole game turned into a Diplomacy skill only game.

My next question is can anyone tell me what classes you think would be good to help PC2 ease out of his fighter only style, he recently wanted to try a spellcasting class but doesnt like wizard or sorcerer, I told him to try out duskblade or mabye ranger( he hates paladins) but said no to both. any ideas?

[Fouredged Sword]

Duskblade will give him a taste of spellcasting and fighter stabbing without any complex build needed.

A shapeshifer druidic avenger (SRD varrient druid) is also a good option. You get to turn into a bear all day long and rage.

The duskblade has more direct damage spells, and plays like a hard hitting fighter, the druid is more of a support caster who turns into a barbarian when needed.

[Urpriest]

For someone who loves Hulk Smash! and isn't particularly into optimization, Druid is a good choice for a melee class. Psychic Warrior is fun too, but it takes more work and isn't technically spellcasting.

[Andorax]

I'd recommend sitting down the whole group (it's only 3 players) and putting characters together as a cooperative effort. PC3 can help 1 and 2 with background, storyline...come up with a good concept. PC1 can help 2 and 3 come up with mechanically effective characters.

Make it clear that group cohesiveness, participation, and success is vastly more important than one of them "winning" over the other two, and that the overall aim is a party that will work well together where everyone makes a difference.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would point PC 3 twards a marshal, dragon shaman, or bard, or maybe a mix of them all.

He can basicly sit out combat and still help if he so wishes. Let him throw his charisma through the roof and diplomance everything in creation.

[Wamphyri]

My next question is can anyone tell me what classes you think would be good to help PC2 ease out of his fighter only style, he recently wanted to try a spellcasting class but doesnt like wizard or sorcerer, I told him to try out duskblade or mabye ranger( he hates paladins) but said no to both. any ideas?

Since Duskblade is out and so is ranger. Try suggesting a fighter with a prestige class that has partial spellcasting. Eldritch Knight, Suel Arcanamach, psionic warrior if you use psionics. You might even try the warlock or hex blade.

[Tyndmyr]

Aright, good news first. None of these guys are that crazy, and there's no need to kick anyone out.



PC1: Is a hardcore powergamer/rules lawyer that finds every combination of skills, classes, and race to create perfect killing machines. He lcaims that it's for pure flavor but his favorite character at lvl 5 had an AC in the 60's and was dealing almost 300 points of damage a round.:smallfrown:

Well, check his sheets carefully, and ask him to explain how it works. Legit rules lawyers, etc tend to LOVE explaining their awesome builds. Feel free to post it on here for critique. You'll probably receive half a dozen suggestions on how to challenge his weaknesses(and probably half a dozen more describing how to optimize it EVEN MOAR)...but here's the trick.

Get him to help the other characters make their builds more awesome. Ideally, swear him to secrecy, and say you're concerned they won't be able to keep up with him. Ask him to do you a favor and suggest a few things for them.

Reward team victories. If he gets too overtly the center of everything...have enemies treat him as the biggest danger, since he logically is. Make sure at least some enemies have ways to affect him...preferably a good variety. Gotta keep him on his toes. Def don't negate his specialty all the time, though. Describing how attack such and such bounces off his armor is a good thing.


PC2: puts alot of effort into his characters making back stories and flavor, then only wants to "punch face" throughout the whole game. For example:

Me: The knight says he wishes for you to accompany him on a journey for wealth and glory, but first you must meet with his king

PC2: Hulk smash knight!

I would also like to point out that his favored class is fighter and at lvl 15 is lucky to have a AC above 14. :smallamused:

So, he's hack and slashy. Not actually that big of a deal, if everyone else is ok with a fair amount of hack and slash. Just try to mix it up and appeal to everyone's interests. Try to appeal to him by finding nice, fluffy ways to make him better at punching face. Reward him for being successful at punching face.


And PC3: Similar to PC2 except that he puts a little more effort into roleplaying and tries to play out his charcters but isnt the best charcter builder.

Much like two, but include a dab of roleplaying if he's into it.

Part of it's just practice, really. They'll get better at both roleplaying and char building with time...Im guessing this group includes some newer players.

Also, they seem pretty melee heavy. Feel free to mix it up a bit. Perhaps allow them to hire an adept henchman or the like, and let one of the weaker chars run him(probably mr punchy). That'll let them get their feet wet in magic nice and easy...he'll probably just be a healbot, but they'll be all kinds of interested in figuring out exactly how much they get healed for.

Oh, almost forgot...if #1s builds ARENT legit...we're pretty much sure to figure that out as well. The answer for that is mostly simple. Point out the mistakes in a friendly fashion and have him fix em.

[NecroRick]

Have you considered 4.0? My understanding is that it is a lot more forgiving, and the gap between high-op and low-op isn't so vast.

Also, lots of combat abilities for everyone (which will make the hulk-smashers in the group happy-ish).



PC1: Is a hardcore powergamer/rules lawyer that finds every combination of skills, classes, and race to create perfect killing machines. He lcaims that it's for pure flavor but his favorite character at lvl 5 had an AC in the 60's and was dealing almost 300 points of damage a round.


It is very important with the rules lawyer types not to be bullied into something that is obviously wrong. If a passage of rules text has two possible interpretations, one of which is plain and obvious, and the other one of which is twisted and convoluted and seems counter to everything else you know about the game... pick the first interpretation. Trust your gut instinct.

Rules lawyers love to tell you that their counter-intuitive bizarro universe explanation of a rule is the only way it can be interpreted, but they are full of crap.



but his favorite character at lvl 5 had an AC in the 60's and was dealing almost 300 points of damage a round.


This is almost certainly not legit, and I guarantee you that it is totally against RAI, whatever the heck it is that he is doing.

[Viper700]

Actually Necrorick, I have been thinking about giving 4e a try for sometime now, I have the Ph1,2,and 3 as well as the dm guides and monster manuals. But i've heard so much crap about it I have been a little hesitent about it, but if you think it would be worth a shot I will most certainly look into it.

[Greenish]

Actually Necrorick, I have been thinking about giving 4e a try for sometime now, I have the Ph1,2,and 3 as well as the dm guides and monster manuals. But i've heard so much crap about it I have been a little hesitent about it, but if you think it would be worth a shot I will most certainly look into it.Eh, you've already bought the books, so it's a waste if you don't give it a shot. Lots of people like it, maybe your group will, too.

[Safety Sword]

Eh, you've already bought the books, so it's a waste if you don't give it a shot. Lots of people like it, maybe your group will, too.

"People" is the only term I take issue with in your statement Greenish. :smallamused:

I can see how people who never played any other edition would get into it, but I honestly can't fathom downgrading my group to 4.0 after we've had (and are still having!) so much fun with 3.5.

If your particular boat requires that type of floating, that's OK of course. It takes all kinds (even 4.0 players) to make the world the crazy melting pot that it is. :smallwink:

Edit: Forgot my smilies! :smallsmile:

Edity edity edit: Oh, and on the topic, I think 3.5 is a superior system for smashing players of different playing styles together in a party. YMMV.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

My group has recently started playing Pathfinder. With regards to making PC2 think outside the box it allows you to customize each base class, so effectively no two members of the same class need to be shaped from the same mould.

I see myself as PC1, any loophole in the rules and I'm all over it. I simply enjoy making the most effective character possible. However, I find my characters can only reach true potential when they have access to hordes of 3.5 books. Simple solution is to limit the books available. The first time a DM pulled this on me I was outraged, but the more I played in this manner allowed me to see that there was more to the game than DC50 spells,a +100 to hit and an 304AC.

As for PC3, if I'm helping players create a character I ask the basic concept they see there character as. From that I aid them in optimizing it whilst still keeping it relatively simple, that they will be able to play it. There's no point in PC1 showing PC3 a 4 round combo to throw out 1600+ damage with a quasi-max-twinned-upthejacksie meteor swarm when all PC3 wants to do is throw a grease and laugh manically as other PC's squirm.

For example, my friend wanted to play a fighter that wielded a trident & a net and had a gladiatorial fell to him. Instead of fully optimizing him to perform specific maneuvers which involved intricate detail, I merely selected feats like Wep Focus, Specialization, Intimidating Prowess to help him hit foes and do his own thing. That way he gets to roleplay him exactly how he imagined and all I've done is make him focused in those areas.

Sage advice: For players poor at building, select feats and equipment with continuous abilities or numerical values. Stay clear of no./day or when a foe is in a specific condition. Tell him it gives him bonus damage, who's going to say no to more damage?!?!

[Fallbot]

The opening salvo of an edition war

Ben and Jerry's oatmeal cookie chunk.

If you have the books, you have absolutely nothing to lose by giving another system a try. 4E does indeed have a smaller gap between high and low-op characters and places the focus more on party synergy than building individually powerful characters. It might be just what you need. Of course it might not be, and you might absolutely hate it, but it's down to you to make that decision, not a load of extremely biased "people" on the internet.