Stuck on a character

[waffleology]

I have a campaign coming up with some buddies of mine and im stuck on a race im thinking on being a warrior or something that just goes in and can take heat off the party. Anyone got any good suggestions??

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A bit more information would be useful, such as level, books, setting, etc.

Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), Heart aspect for the breath attack, Entangling Exhalation (RotD). Probably go Crusader all the way, probably Stone Power, definitely Extra Granted Maneuver.

[waffleology]

sorry yea you got a point lol ummm not to many restrictions and i think as long as i can run it by my dm it will be ok we are starting out at level 5 so pretty much anything goes

[Grendus]

The biggest questions are what books do you have and how optimized are your party members. We don't want to set you up with a water orc barbarian charger if your party mates are a sword and board fighter, a healbot cleric, and a sniper rogue who didn't invest much in hide and stays behind the party.

[waffleology]

i have alot of the books to many to list and the party isnt to optimized because we are playing a tough campaign and they keep dieing lol

ohhh and the DM is giving us 9k gold to start

[Feytalist]

I always suggest Knight/Crusader for a tanky character. Not a lot of synergy between the two, but they both have nice defences and a some ways to take the heat off the rest of the party.

The knight has the useful d12 HD and the knight's challenge, which penalises enemies for attacking anyone other than you. The Crusader has zeal and steely resolve, which delays some damage and gives you bonuses for taking said damage. The Devoted Spirit/White Raven maneuvres and stances also feature some nice lockdown options.

You don't even have to optimise all that much. It should work well right out of the box.

[waffleology]

what kinda races do you suggest?? im trying to find something that has some strength to it so maybe an orcish race or something along those lines

[Feytalist]

Heh. I'd go dwarf, but that's just me. Constitution is perhaps even more important than Strength. Some[weasel words, please revise] have also suggested gnome, but being small won't help you too much here.

As has been mentioned, go Water Orc, if you can swing it. Otherwise, plain old human is better than most.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you want something that is very, very unlikely to die via HP damage, I would second B_F's mineral warrior dragon born water orc crusader. That said, if you're an unstoppable killing machine and your buddies aren't, that's just going to make your DM ramp everything up to your level. Ultimately, through the metagame, it will threaten your allies more than any level-appropriate monster ever could. Also, this sounds a bit counterintuitive, but I think Warblade has better overall defense than the Crusader since it has access to Diamond Mind save replacers + Iron Heart Surge. Again, you would already have HP damage covered with DR 8/adamantine and a ridiculous constitution score; your real problem is getting taken out of the fight via will saves and possibly reflex saves.

Of course, the problem with warblade is that your INT is probably going to be 10 at the highest. What's your stat gen?

[waffleology]

ummmm i think the dm is being generious and itys gonna be 4d6 dropping the lowest dice starting the charecter out at level 5. I was really digging the mineral warrior after reading about it

[Feytalist]

I honestly think mineral warrior should be at least +2 LA. It's a ridiculous template. DR 8/adamantine? Just... yeah.

Warblade might be a bit beefier at the lower levels, but Crusader's steely resolve really makes up for a lot afterwards. Not to mention Devoted Spirit's line of healing attacks. And Crusader gets indomitable soul, which should help your Will save out. And zealous surge. And mettle. Tank-wise, crusader is just better.

[waffleology]

what books do i find the classes and the races in that you guys have described??

sorry about all the questions it has been a long time since i have played so i am wicked rusty

[Feytalist]

Well, you have links to Water Orc, mineral warrior and Dragonborn.

Knight is in the Player's Handbook 2; Crusader, Warblade and all their goodies are in Tome of Battle.

If you want all the sources, Dragonborn comes from Races of the Dragon, mineral warrior is in Underdark (a 3.0 Forgotten Realms sourcebook), and Water Orc is in Unearthed Arcana.

[waffleology]

thanks man i appericiate it

[waffleology]

what do you guys think of a half human half giant of some type??

[JonRG]

Well, half giant has a level adjustment of +1, and then goliath (Races of Stone) is a slightly better +1. Half-ogre is a +2, but may not be worth it as too much LA slows your BAB progression, saves, etcetc.

Though half-giants make pretty good psychic warriors, if you want new crazy options at this point in the thread.

As for Will Saves, I went for Steadfast Determination on my Barbarian (Con to Will saves, cannot auto-fail Fort saves). The pre-req (Endurance) isn't great, but it's the same pre-req for Diehard. :smallamused: It's a bit feat-heavy, but just throwing the idea out there.

[Legendairy]

I would think just go straight Crusader for a bit then throw in a level or so of warblade(later levels) and be a goliath with a reach weapon. Instead of doing huge amounts of damage you will be a meat shield that can take a beating and keep the bad guys pinned down so they cant get to the rest of the part. You will also have some minor healing abilities with a crusader.

This should make the DM happy too as you will just be the TANK not a damage tank but a tank, at later levels throw in some warblade levels for some beefier damage and Iron Heart Surge, also there is a manuaver that lets you use concentration checks instead of wisdom for will saves (probably your weakest save).

Other players should be happy as they will still be the damagers even tho you will essentially be shouldering the burden, it also frees them up to do more things as you will be pinning the big bads and controlling the fights.

[waffleology]

cool cool thanks for the advice like i said in my earlier posts im so rusty its been hard trying to get back into the swing of things. BTW what are the abreviations you were useing for the mineral warrior?? not familiar with them.

so the consensus is earlier a mineral warrior or a goliath with crusader or warblade ill def look at them both under a microscope

[JonRG]

Goliath is the best kind of giant, but Water Orc is better due to no LA.


Mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (also called "stony") is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature that is not a construct, undead, or an elemental (referred to hereafter as the base creature). You don't have to pick between Mineral Warrior and Orc/Goliath.

I think the consensus is Crusader at first. Then if you want more damage output, you can take Warblade levels. Though you'll have to be mindful of too many stacking Int penalties. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Goliath is the best kind of giant, but Water Orc is better due to no LA.

You don't have to pick between Mineral Warrior and Orc/Goliath.

I think the consensus is Crusader at first. Then if you want more damage output, you can take Warblade levels. Though you'll have to be mindful of too many stacking Int penalties. :smalltongue:

Mineral Warrior isn't in RoS. Seriously, the link tells you.

[waffleology]

Ok so I have narrowed it down to goliath and water orc ill have to run them by the dn to see if he dislikes one less than the other now I just gotta look at crusader and warblade does a crusader fit for an orc??

[JonRG]

Mineral Warrior isn't in RoS. Seriously, the link tells you.

Yeah, my brain stuck on Races of Stone 'cause of Goliath. :smallredface:

[Legendairy]

As for as crusader fitting for an Orc, eh depends on the campaign. They are kind of like paladins so they can fit anything its up to your play style, the campaign, and the god you choose to follow.

[Curious]

A bit more information would be useful, such as level, books, setting, etc.

Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), Heart aspect for the breath attack, Entangling Exhalation (RotD). Probably go Crusader all the way, probably Stone Power, definitely Extra Granted Maneuver.

Wait a sec- doesn't Dragonborn replace the traits from Water Orc, replacing it's +4 Str, +2 Con thing? Or do stat modifiers not count as racial traits.

[Greenish]

Wait a sec- doesn't Dragonborn replace the traits from Water Orc, replacing it's +4 Str, +2 Con thing? Or do stat modifiers not count as racial traits.Dragonborn replaces most everything except stat modifiers (or movement modes).

[Curious]

Dragonborn replaces most everything except stat modifiers (or movement modes).

Oh, alright. That's very awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[rexreg]

http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/9.jpg (http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm)

[waffleology]

so how many levels of a crusader do i go into until i switch over to warblade??

[Legendairy]

Well here is a generic sort of build you may want to swap a feat out somewhere to get the feat Large and in charge from RoS or Knockback.

Crusader 16 / Warblade 4 (Crusader 8 / Warblade 1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2 / Warblade +1 / Crusader +2)

Feats:
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Stand Still
3: Extra Granted Maneuver
6: Stone Power
9: Ironheart Aura
12: Stormguard Warrior
15: Robilar's Gambit
18: Defensive Sweep (PHB2)

Maneuvers Show
Maneuvers in Italics are later swapped out.

Crusader 1: Charging Minotaur (SD 1), Crusader's Strike (DS 1), Douse the Flames (WR 1), Leading the Attack (WR 1), Stone Bones (SD 1) + Martial Spirit (DS 1, Stance)
Crusader 2: Iron Guard's Glare (DS 1, Stance)
Crusader 3: Foehammer (DS 2)
Crusader 4: Swap Leading the Attack -> Battle Leader's Charge (WR 2)
Crusader 5: White Raven Tactics (WR 3)
Crusader 6: Swap Stone Bones -> Defensive Rebuke or Revitalising Strike (DS 3)
Crusader 7: Divine Surge (DS 4)
Crusader 8: Swap Charging Minotaur -> White Raven Strike (WR 4) + Thicket of Blades (DS 3. Stance)
Warblade 1: Iron Heart Surge (IH 3), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM 1), Wall of Blades (IH 2) + Punishing Stance (IH 1, Stance)
Crusader 9: Radiant Charge (DS 5)
Crusader 10: Swap Crusader's Strike -> Flanking Maneuver (WR 5)
Warblade 2: Lightning Recovery (IH 4)
Crusader 11: Order Forged From Chaos (WR 6)
Crusader 12: Swap Douse the Flames -> Rallying Strike (DS 6)
Warblade 3: Iron Heart Focus (IH 5)
Crusader 13: Clarion Call (WR 7)
Crusader 14: Swap Foehammer -> White Raven Hammer (WR 8) + Immortal Fortitude (DS 8, Stance)
Warblade 4: Dancing Blade Form (IH 5, Stance)
Crusader 15: Strike of Righteous Vitality (DS 9)
Crusader 16: Swap Battle Leader's Charge -> War Master's Charge (WR 9)

[waffleology]

Wow thanks legend for taking the time to post that so basically 2 lvls of crusade then one of warblade?

[Legendairy]

Actually its 8 Crusader then 1 warblade then alternate them. You are welcome, although I really didn't do much but copy paste

[waffleology]

ahhh ok gotcha but hey you still took time to answer my question thourghly though

[Hazzardevil]

For your build I would personally take 15 levels of warblade and 5 levels of crusader, Crusader's class features aren't really that useful, but Thicket of Blades is a stance that you will certainly want.

[waffleology]

Why go with warblade over crusader?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Before you use ToB in your games, let me ask you this. Are your game groups made of barbarians, warmages, blasty wiz/sorcs, buffer/healbot clerics/druids, and rogues, or Batman/GOD wizards, factotums, duskblades, battlefield control clerics/druids, warlocks, psions/wilders, and psychic warriors?

[waffleology]

From what I have its a pally a wizard a cleric a rogue a figther and then me I don't know if they have any weird classes or not my buddy didn't tell me that

[Legendairy]

If the group is mainly core and UN-optimized anything out of ToB is going to grab the spotlight. Personally, I would still go more crusader than warblade as stated before. Be careful you don't want to hurt everyone's feelings with the "look what I can do" complex. A straight cleric can be a great tank with a little spell buffing before combat if the feel for core is better than that of the feel of using ToB.

[waffleology]

No that's just the base classes I know of im sure they will be dabbling in other classes we are doing the return to the temple of the elemental evil so I wanted something to do something not just sit there ya know? But really im open to any classes and races

[Legendairy]

Well depending on what you are wanting, the Crusader is an amazing tank without much tweaking. The only down side is your damage output is going to suck(hence the Warblade Dips). Through and through it is a fun build if you like being the meatchield with options and a few heals and such. If you are wanting more damage then be a caster type, more utility rogues and factatum(sp?) type, buffs? bards clerics and a whole slew of others. It is entirely up to your personal flavor and the people at the playground will help you with just about anything and they are pretty awesome at it (most anyway :P)

So figure out what YOU want to play, look up things that sound fun, and if you get stuck or can't figure out how to make what you want a possibility, drop us a line!

[waffleology]

Really? Casters out good Dmg outputs?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Really? Casters out good Dmg outputs?

Yeah, but you have to mix in some debuffs and control. Magic Missile. Grease. Ray of Enfeeblement. Scorching Ray. Blindness/Deafness. Glitterdust. Web. Pyrotechnics (smoke). Fireball. Stinking Cloud. Lightning Bolt. Orb of Force. Orb of Fire. Evard's Black Tentacles. Shout. Cloudkill. Cone of Cold. Baleful Polymorph. And that's only to 5th level spells. If you want straight blasting though, sorcerers with Energy Substitution and kineticist psions are the kings.

[Greenish]

I don't see a reason to switch over to warblade, either. Straight crusader gets more higher level maneuvers faster, and the refreshing mechanic is arguably better.

As for caster vs. melee in damage, eh. Melee has way easier time racking the damage up, casters have easier time applying theirs.

[Legendairy]

Hmm sarcasm? Anyway Artificers, Druids, Spirit Shaman are some of the tops without having to have crazy builds, sorta.

[Legendairy]

I don't see a reason to switch over to warblade, either. Straight crusader gets more higher level maneuvers faster, and the refreshing mechanic is arguably better.

As for caster vs. melee in damage, eh. Melee has way easier time racking the damage up, casters have easier time applying theirs.

Well put, only reason to dip warblade is for some nice things like Iron Heart Surge and the Diamond Mind one that let's you use a concentration check instead of a will save and the more damage specific stuff.

Be sure to go with a reach weapon and like spiked gauntlet or the nice spiked chain.

[Greenish]

Hmm sarcasm?What? Melee damage is easier to rack up, usually with standard charger shenanigans.

[Legendairy]

What? Melee damage is easier to rack up, usually with standard charger shenanigans.

That was actually in reference to what OP said about casters being able to do damage.

[waffleology]

Yea going through my old characters I think im gonna fall back to what I know and play a wizard. They are always fun and versatile but the only restriction is I usually play a necro but the em wants to stay close to good alligned. But ill come up with something some form of wizard I've never played maybe a transmutation or conj I know its a broken spell but I really like polymorph :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

Yea going through my old characters I think im gonna fall back to what I know and play a wizard. They are always fun and versatile but the only restriction is I usually play a necro but the em wants to stay close to good alligned. But ill come up with something some form of wizard I've never played maybe a transmutation or conj I know its a broken spell but I really like polymorph :smallbiggrin:

If you got creative with your character's personality/background/etc. then you might be able to pull off a Good necromancer.

[Tvtyrant]

Totemist with rage claws is also good at taking hits; con based class that can keep fighting into the negatives? Amazing.

[Legendairy]

If you got creative with your character's personality/background/etc. then you might be able to pull off a Good necromancer.

Depends on the DM as re-animating a corpse is inherently evil in most campaigns. You snatch up a soul and force it into a body and then make it do what you will( even if its to save a princess or what have you) it's still pretty evil.