Destroying artifacts

[Alleran]

I was skimming Heroes of Horror, and noticed a few things about the artifacts listed there. For example, Acereak's robe has the following in its description:

"Acereak's robe can only be destroyed if it is first coated in dust taken from a demilich - some legends maintain that it must be from Acereak himself - and then burned in holy fire, such as that produced by a flame strike spell, cast by a 20th level caster."

Compared to disjunction:

"Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items."

Of course, friends don't let friends use disjunction. However, Acereak's robe (and the descriptions for the other artifacts in the book) seems to be quite clear that it is only the described method that will destroy it. Yet disjunction also states that even artifacts are subject to it.

Which of the two takes precedence? I can't think of many other artifacts in 3.0/3.5 that have the built-in destruction clause (the ones in the SRD don't, for one), but would these artifacts in fact be immune to disjunction?

[Drelua]

I would say disjunction works the same, but the described method is the only surefire way to destroy it. This is based off of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, which does describe certain methods to destroy each artifact, and also says disjunction effects artifacts in the same way as 3.5.

[Alaris]

Considering no OTHER Artifacts that I know of actually specify how to destroy them, I would say Disjunction bounces harmlessly off of the particular Artifact in question. It is clearly a powerful one, and essentially says in it's text that nothing else can destroy it.

[NichG]

In older editions, every artifact explicitly had a few specific 'ways to destroy' (it was part of the standard artifact stat block format in Book of Artifacts, for example).

As far as potential for interesting plots goes, there's more interesting leeway if a Disjunction can't just destroy an artifact. On the other hand, if 9th level spells are just not available in your setting unless the PCs get to that point, it could be an interesting way to show the PCs just how far they've come (back at Lv6 they had to take the Ring to Mt. Doom, but now they can just Disjunction+Limited Wish: Surge of Fortune to not lose casting forever, and call it a day).

[Drelua]

There's the quote I was looking for. DMG, page 280-281:

Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction, determined ahead of time by you. For example, a specific artifact might be undone by one of the following means:
Throwing it into the volcano lair of the dragon Uthrax.
Crushed under the heel of a demigod.
Buried in the rift of corrosion in the Abyss.
This shows that the intention was for there to be one single, extremely difficult way to destroy a major artifact, and yet the disjunction spell still exists, showing that disjunction should still be able to work, with no more than a 20% chance of success, of course.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's always "If it actually specifies something, specific trumps general." And if it don't specify something and the DM don't think to specify something, then general applies by default.

[Psyren]

I don't see the issue here. It simply means that there are two ways to destroy any artifact - its special unique way (e.g. toss the One Ring into Mount Doom), or a successful disjunction pulled off by a supercaster. The odds on the second method are really long, but it's an option in case the first is impractical or unknown.

If the first method was the only way to destroy an artifact, that would be a huge problem for the world - the ability of a deity or deific figure to circulate false information/hide his gizmo's silver bullet surely exceeds the ability of a mere mortal to uncover it. The majority of artifacts that end up on the Material belong to bastards too (e.g. Vecna, Asmodeus, Acererak etc.)


There's the quote I was looking for. DMG, page 280-281:

This shows that the intention was for there to be one single, extremely difficult way to destroy a major artifact, and yet the disjunction spell still exists, showing that disjunction should still be able to work, with no more than a 20% chance of success, of course.

Well, if your caster level is only 20 at level 20, you're either severely poor, doing it wrong, or both.

Anyway, the "lose all casting forever" drawback only kicks in if you're successful at disjoining the artifact in question - meaning you can try again multiple times per day, devoting all of your 9th-level spell slots (and higher, if epic) to nuking the artifact in question. Presumably if you're trying to rub out an artifact, that's going to be a primary concern for you. You can also have sufficiently-high level underlings try along with you.

Finally, Pathfinder has a psionic version of disjunction that can also be used (Unravel Psionics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/u/unravel-psionics)). Due to the mutable nature of power points, a Psion devoting all his ammunition to disjunction gets 20 shots per day to nuke an artifact before bonus PP are factored in. Wilders get a ton more assuming no enervation, and a Wilder 20 can Perfect Surge for a 30% chance before items and feats. In Pathfinder though, the artifact gets a will save to avoid being disjoined, and its saves are likely to be pretty damn high.

The 3.x caster can use the Spell Points variant (or a CStP Erudite using shenanigans can) for a similar effect to the PF Psion - i.e. 20 or more disjunctions per day.

[Drelua]

Well, if your caster level is only 20 at level 20, you're either severely poor, doing it wrong, or both.

Well, when it comes to optimization, I have a tendency to do it wrong. :smalltongue: Also, I have yet to play a caster (with higher than 4th level spells), so I readily admit that I have know idea what I'm talking about in this area, beyond the absolute basics.

[Deimess]

I always assumed that the spell Disjunction only worked on minor artifacts. The rules seems pretty clear to me that major artifacts are very difficult to destroy.