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HMS Invincible
2011-09-08, 02:59 AM
and my DM asked me to bargain with them, except I have no idea how. We ended up rolling charisma checks, and I won. Still got attacked by the elemental afterwards. =\ How exactly do you make these bargains easier on my hp? I'm on Planar Binding, lesser so it's not a big deal right now, but I do wanna do it right, or least well enough to mitigate angry outsiders coming for revenge.

Eldan
2011-09-08, 03:58 AM
I'd say bargain with them as you would with everyone else. Figure out what they want, and offer them that. Elementals mostly want to go home, really. They aren't even all that smart, out of their own environment. Outsiders should be easier to bargain with.

Engine
2011-09-08, 05:47 AM
Binding good outsiders could be easy enough if your character's good (or at least neutral): you could bind them saying that you need their help for a just cause, so they'll probably help your character for free.

Binding evil outsiders could be risky: they'll probably try to subvert your orders for their own agenda, but if your character's evil and he's willing to offer something - or someone, much better - in sacrifice to them it could be easier to persuade them to do what you wish.

Neutral outsiders could be tricky and risky: before trying to bind one of them you should try to do some research, so you could figure out what they would probably want when you'll bargain with them.

Mark Hall
2011-09-08, 10:43 AM
Binding is, essentially, making a deal. You want them to work for you. They want something in return. As mentioned, you need to make it worth their while.

Good Outsiders will frequently work for a good cause, but MAY require some other overt Good act from you, especially if you're asking help from someone much more powerful than you.

Evil Outsiders may pervert your orders to allow evil, or may want some evil act from you... sacrifice is common.

So, think about who you're summoning and what they're likely to want. If you open up with an offer, they may accept it. You might overpay, but you're also offering what you can afford... and might have some room to bargain.

imperialspectre
2011-09-09, 10:18 AM
Also, if you make the Charisma check, the monster serves you. Period. So if the DM is doing it otherwise, you may wish to have a conversation with your DM out-of-game to clarify what's going on.

gbprime
2011-09-09, 10:54 AM
Don't forget the other spells you can cast to help you. Magic Circle, Dimensional Anchor, etc. Charisma items and a Circlet of Persuasion are key too. Nar Demonbinder has it best, since at 4th level an outsider can't resist with SR.

When you're confident that you have the process down and your DM won't screw you, you can start doing things like binding advanced celestial hippogriffs for use as a mount. If that goes well and you get Planar Binding, you might be ready for the big time. A Glabrezu has nearly 200 HP, is awesome in combat, and can grant a Wish. (But you better be airtight in how you bind it and what the DM might do to you first.)

JonRG
2011-09-09, 11:27 AM
You're probably not playing PF, but here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories) are some 'sacrifices' you can make to boost your Cha check. Some of them are impractical, but it might give you some ideas. :smallwink:

AngellusMortus
2011-09-09, 02:21 PM
Also, if you make the Charisma check, the monster serves you. Period. So if the DM is doing it otherwise, you may wish to have a conversation with your DM out-of-game to clarify what's going on.

What he said. If you beat its Charisma roll, it's automatically yours. The reward is only to make it easier.

I will say one thing: be very careful with this. I lost a character because I bound a Balor (playing a Malconvoker) and, as part of his contract, commanded him to never attack anyone unless ordered by me, and to never attempt to harm me in any way. So instead, while I was sleeping, he used his own summon ability to summon a balor, play a quick game of chess with it, and then let it do whatever it wanted...which, of course, was murder the **** out of me. :smalltongue:

DaragosKitsune
2011-09-09, 02:53 PM
Basically, remember that bound creatures, especially evil ones, are prone to liberal interpretations of your orders. Much like mercenaries, really.

Eric Tolle
2011-09-09, 03:52 PM
Really, I'd avoid long-term bindings. Just summon the Efreet, get the wishes, and send it home.

Mark Hall
2011-09-09, 04:28 PM
Really, I'd avoid long-term bindings. Just summon the Efreet, get the wishes, and send it home.

Generally, this is excellent advice. Planar Binding is free... you just have to sacrifice ten minutes and a spell slot for it. No XP, no expensive material components. Call something up, give it a specific task of limited duration, and pay it.

Telok
2011-09-09, 07:40 PM
If you want wishes off of efreeti and you have some extra time and a base there is a way to increase your bargaining position. Although you may not want to do this if you're plaing a goody goody type character.

Use True Strike and an empowered or maxed [cold] spell to kill several efreeti. Because creatures from [calling] spells don't vanish when killed you will have several efreet corpses to play with and display for visitors.

Now the next time you summon an efreet there is ample evidence that you are willing and able to kill him if he disagrees with you.

Lord Loss
2011-09-10, 10:17 PM
If you want wishes off of efreeti and you have some extra time and a base there is a way to increase your bargaining position. Although you may not want to do this if you're plaing a goody goody type character.

Use True Strike and an empowered or maxed [cold] spell to kill several efreeti. Because creatures from [calling] spells don't vanish when killed you will have several efreet corpses to play with and display for visitors.

Now the next time you summon an efreet there is ample evidence that you are willing and able to kill him if he disagrees with you.

(Also, welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool)

Alternatively, you could make illusions of Efreeti corpses...

DragonOfUndeath
2011-09-10, 10:27 PM
(Also, welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool)

Alternatively, you could make illusions of Efreeti corpses...

No the way to do it is this: (Warning: Evil)
1. Summon Efreeti
2. Command it to Wish for *insert airtight wish here* then stand perfectly still and not react to anything for 2 minutes (Sacrifice some dude to them for this)
3. Murder the **** out of it
4. Summon Efreeti
5. Show them corpse and say "give me *airtight wish* or you'll end up like that guy"
6. Murder the **** out of it no matter what it does
7. Repeat steps 4-7 until you don't want to anymore

Net loss: Casting Time, Spell Slots, Some dude
Net gain: X Efreet bodies, Y Wishes
X= Number of Efreet Summoned,, Y= 3X

Steward
2011-09-10, 11:01 PM
I don't understand why you need to do all that. Planar Binding forces the creature to serve you if you make the check, right? Why do you have to summon a bunch of creatures so you can kill them in order to intimidate the next creature that shows up? Wouldn't it make sense to summon the first Efreeti, give it an order, and save the whole 'murder' advice for when you fail the check?

DragonOfUndeath
2011-09-10, 11:11 PM
Because the Murder option gives XP and you need some corpses to fall back on if you fail the check.
The Dude you sacrifice to the Efreet is a bonus to the check and after that you get "I'll kill you like I killed them" bonuses.

Golden-Esque
2011-09-11, 02:08 AM
and my DM asked me to bargain with them, except I have no idea how. We ended up rolling charisma checks, and I won. Still got attacked by the elemental afterwards. =\ How exactly do you make these bargains easier on my hp? I'm on Planar Binding, lesser so it's not a big deal right now, but I do wanna do it right, or least well enough to mitigate angry outsiders coming for revenge.

Pathfinder's Ultimate Magic has a really good section on how to bargain with outsiders. What they may want, what their motivations are, etc. You might be able to find it on the Pathfinder SRD.

Steward
2011-09-11, 08:18 AM
Because the Murder option gives XP and you need some corpses to fall back on if you fail the check.
The Dude you sacrifice to the Efreet is a bonus to the check and after that you get "I'll kill you like I killed them" bonuses.

Ah, that makes sense.

jguy
2011-09-11, 12:19 PM
I had an idea for either a one-shot character for me or a horrible mid-range villain for a game. The idea was that she was a powerful wizard who ran a orphanage in a large city. She would care for the children in a perfect manner, making sure they were loved and cared for and never wanted for naught. As she did this she would slowly brainwash them that the best thing they could ever do is "give your soul to your guardian and you will live eternally". No need for magic in this, just repeat the lesson over and over while they are young and gullible until they honestly believe it to be true.

Now, with these pure and honest souls and her beck, I would have her summon various demons and devils with planar binding and gain more and more power by selling the children's souls to them. It wouldn't even be very hard. A lot of demons/devils have a way to change their outward appearance so she would tell the child that this person was their new guardian and that it was time to give your soul over to them. Afterwards, with the deal done, the outsider would walk out of town with the child so that everyone thought they had been adopted and then never seen again.

I am tempted to use this character as a contact for a low-level adventure group and she sells them magical gear that is very undercosted to get in their good graces and to help provide food and clothing for the children. Even better if they are a good aligned party and the huge blow up that will happen when they find out how she is affording all the gear and what is happening to the children.