[3.5/3.P] Totemist and Factotum question(s)

[BlueInc]

I finally picked up Magic of Incarnum and Dungeonscape, and I must say, I like both the Totemist and the Factotum a lot; I wish I'd know about the Factotum the last time I played a rogue - I really wanted him to have minor spellcasting, but I didn't want to multiclass.

Question 1: Has anyone tried using either of these classes in a Pathfinder game? My gut feeling is that they'd fit right in, no problems.

Question 1a: What would you change, if anything, when integrating these two classes into a Pathfinder game?

Question 2: Are there any other books with soulmelds for totemists in them?

[Volthawk]

Can't answer question 1, but for 2, there's soulmelds in Dragon Magic (need dragonblooded subtype), and also one Totemist soulmeld here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a).

[subject42]

The biggest problem with Factotum in a 3.P game is that you can use the additional feats granted by Pathfinder to really abuse Font of Inspiration. I would either ban that feat or tone down the bonus that taking it repeatedly provides.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The biggest problem with Factotum in a 3.P game is that you can use the additional feats granted by Pathfinder to really abuse Font of Inspiration. I would either ban that feat or tone down the bonus that taking it repeatedly provides.

It's still a maximum of your int modifier. :smallconfused: Yeah yeah, headband of intellect, but you still have to wait to afford that.

[Andreaz]

I finally picked up Magic of Incarnum and Dungeonscape, and I must say, I like both the Totemist and the Factotum a lot; I wish I'd know about the Factotum the last time I played a rogue - I really wanted him to have minor spellcasting, but I didn't want to multiclass.

Question 1: Has anyone tried using either of these classes in a Pathfinder game? My gut feeling is that they'd fit right in, no problems.

No, but I have played an incarnate in a gestalt game in pathfinder. The problems seemed to be the same as there would be in a more standard game. Power-wise we buffed them to BAB 3/4, nothing more.


Question 1a: What would you change, if anything, when integrating these two classes into a Pathfinder game?

Mostly the soulmelds that granted skill bonuses were changed to answer the new ones. Sometimes that'd leave a redundant meld but we didn't care.


Question 2: Are there any other books with soulmelds for totemists in them?
I believe there are only web enhancements with extra melds, nothing else.

[Greenish]

Totemist can rack up quite large bonuses to Grapple, enough to make it a worthwhile tactic every now and then. They also get Pounce so they can actually use their multiple attacks. I think those are against PF's design principles.

[Keld Denar]

There is a copy of a Dragon mag with some extra soulmelds, in particular Chaos Roc Span which gives the ever elusive "wing buffet" natural attack, and the Beastheart meld which can give you the Swarm type. I forget which number it is, but a bit of googling around could probably get you the details.

[subject42]

It's still a maximum of your int modifier. :smallconfused: Yeah yeah, headband of intellect, but you still have to wait to afford that.

PF point buy is considerably more forgiving than 3.5 point buy, so it's easier to have 18 starting INT than it used to be. This goes double when you factor in racial bonus changes.

Assuming you boost INT at 4th and 8th level and don't use any INT boosting items, that's enough to cover all of your standard feats and your human bonus feat up to that point. The end result is 15 inspiration points from feats, which is more than you get from your entire class progression.

[drakir_nosslin]

There is a copy of a Dragon mag with some extra soulmelds, in particular Chaos Roc Span which gives the ever elusive "wing buffet" natural attack, and the Beastheart meld which can give you the Swarm type. I forget which number it is, but a bit of googling around could probably get you the details.

I think it's Dragon #350, though I'm afb atm, so I'm not sure.

[Curious]

PF point buy is considerably more forgiving than 3.5 point buy, so it's easier to have 18 starting INT than it used to be. This goes double when you factor in racial bonus changes.

Assuming you boost INT at 4th and 8th level and don't use any INT boosting items, that's enough to cover all of your standard feats and your human bonus feat up to that point. The end result is 15 inspiration points from feats, which is more than you get from your entire class progression.

And the problem with this is. . ? If the guy spends all his resources to boost his Inspiration points, I'd be inclined to let him have that.

[BlueInc]

Wow! Lots of good responses.

@Volt - Thanks for the link.

@Font of Inspiration - The biggest problem with FoI is that you can spend inspiration points for extra actions, right? Why not just say you can only give yourself one extra action per round? Or one extra action per encounter? Or if the more times you use it during an encounter, the more and more expensive it comes?

Are there any other problems with having a huge inspiration pool?

@Andreaz - Yeah, all of the skill stuff would need to be reworked; not too too big of a problem, though.

@Greenish - There are "pouncy" abilities in Ultimate Combat; I for one am in the "melee can have nice things" camp - which is why I want my PF players to have access to the Totemist.

@Keld Denar, drakir_nosslin- I don't have many Dragon Magazines, but I'll see if I can track it down.

[subject42]

And the problem with this is. . ? If the guy spends all his resources to boost his Inspiration points, I'd be inclined to let him have that.


Are there any other problems with having a huge inspiration pool?


It's mostly the standard action shenanigans, but there are a few potential issues that I see beyond standard actions.

The main one is the RAW/RAI issue around cunning strike. If you go RAW and only allow 1d6 bonus damage total, this ability is pretty much worthless. If you allow a 1:1 benefit of sneak attack dice to inspiration spent, you'll need to cap the maximum amount of sneak attack you can obtain from inspiration, lest you have an 8th level character with the sneak attack of an epic rogue once per encounter.

[Hiro Protagonest]

@Font of Inspiration - The biggest problem with FoI is that you can spend inspiration points for extra actions, right? Why not just say you can only give yourself one extra action per round? Or one extra action per encounter? Or if the more times you use it during an encounter, the more and more expensive it comes?...It costs 8 inspiration points already.
@Greenish - There are "pouncy" abilities in Ultimate Combat; I for one am in the "melee can have nice things" camp - which is why I want my PF players to have access to the Totemist.

Tiger's Pounce is just Heedless Charge. Barbarians don't get it sooner than 11th. The new feat that lets you Dimension Door and full attack is avaiable for the monk at 17th level, and maguses get them sooner, so magic still wins. Mobile Fighter and Danflower Dervish get it at level 20.

[subject42]

...It costs 8 inspiration points already.

It costs 3 inspiration points. You get it at 8th level.



Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you learn to push yourself when needed. By spending 3 inspiration points, you can take an extra standard action during
your turn.

[BlueInc]

@Swiftmongoose - Yeah, Pathfinder isn't too kind to melee; that's why I include ToB in my PF games :D

Problem is getting my players to use it...they're all playing casters right now :/

[MeeposFire]

It's mostly the standard action shenanigans, but there are a few potential issues that I see beyond standard actions.

The main one is the RAW/RAI issue around cunning strike. If you go RAW and only allow 1d6 bonus damage total, this ability is pretty much worthless. If you allow a 1:1 benefit of sneak attack dice to inspiration spent, you'll need to cap the maximum amount of sneak attack you can obtain from inspiration, lest you have an 8th level character with the sneak attack of an epic rogue once per encounter.

Who cares about a single rounds worth of SA? That is a lame use of inspiration. Go to the pros of factotums and they will tell you that taking FoI more than three times or so is overkill. Especially since there are many feats that make those standard actions better that the factotum wants. Taking FoI every time is a big waste.

[Person_Man]

Key Synergies:

1) Factotum gets all Skills on it's class list. Soulmelds can be used to boost Skills. So human Facotum 1 or 3/Totemist X with the Able Learner feat has a very easy time boosting certain Skills, most notably Spot, Search, Listen, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, and Intimidate. If you want UMD, Diplomacy, Slieght of Hand, Open Locks, Disable Device, Tumble, Escape Artist, and a few others, you'll probably want Factotum 1 or 3/Incarnate X instead. Throw in the Factotum's easy access to Alter Self, and you're set.

2) Essentia capacity continues to increase with hit dice, and you can unlock higher level chakra binds with Feats. So both Totemist and Incarnate tend to multiclass well with non-Incarnum classes at mid levels.

3) Factotum 8 can get an extra Standard Action by spending Inspiration points. Key Standard Action soulmelds: Basalisk Mask bound to Totem for Flesh to Stone, Blink Shirt for Dimension Door (Move Action if bound to Totem), Frost Helm bound to Totem for Stun burst, and five different breath weapons (which qualify for metabreath feats).

Note that Factotum's dependence on Int and lack of essentia/soulmeld/chakra bind progression will generally weaken the Totemist's long term melee effectiveness, which depends heavily on stacking and boosting natural attacks.

And it's not really worth it to take levels of Totemist or Incarnate to boost Skills if you're playing in mid to high level games, because it's fairly easy to boost Skills with magic items and magic, which a Factotum would have easy access to at ECL 8ish+.

And at ECL 15+ it generally wouldn't be a good idea to multiclass at all for either class, as you'd be denying yourself access to their highest level class abilities.

Important additional soulmelds are in the Dragon Magic supplement (they're online somewhere on the WotC website) and Dragon Magazine #350 pg 86.