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Mastikator
2011-09-08, 12:44 PM
The first question goes to the players of the playground, what kind of game master do you prefer, the Killer GM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster) or the Monty Haul (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MontyHaul)? (pick a balance between them)

Likewise to the game masters, what kind are you?

Traab
2011-09-08, 12:52 PM
I dont think killer gm is really the opposite of the monty haul. Its close, but imo the opposite of monty haul is the dm who doesnt give out ANY loot worth mentioning. Like, DM Of The Rings comic style. Not alot of combat, but even when there is, there is no leveling up, no loot, the towns dont have anything worth buying/stealing/conning, and the storyline is on rails.

Sipex
2011-09-08, 12:56 PM
Taking the TV Tropes definitions I'd rather play with the Monty Haul DM than the Killer GM. Monty Haul DMs at least provide you with fair battles, even if you have a ton of loot.

I've come close to being a Monty Haul DM before, I have to watch that side of me.

Kerrin
2011-09-08, 12:57 PM
Hmm, I'm more of an "everything* in moderation" kinda person.

*for certain definitions of "everything" :smallsmile:

pendell
2011-09-08, 12:57 PM
How about a balance between the two?

I want a dungeon that is challenging -- there is a real risk of death from CR-appropriate monsters and difficult traps -- but with a minimum of RFED and Screw You traps. If I die, I want it to be because *I* was stupid or didn't roll well, not because the GM decided to drop the Tarrasque on my level 3 character.

Likewise with loot. A game where +5 swords are given out like party favors is boring. But if I defeat a challenging boss, I want more of a reward than 10 gp.

So I would say that both are extremes to be avoided. True GMing is the art of carefully balancing between the extremes to produce a challenging game that is fun for the players.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

valadil
2011-09-08, 12:57 PM
Killer GM. Loot distribution is one of my least favorite parts of any game. Even when we can get through equipment distribution quickly and amicably, I want to feel that my character is the one doing the work. If my magic sword is contributing more than my character is, something is wrong.

Traab
2011-09-08, 12:58 PM
Yeah id rather have monty haul, if only because at least you can have fun for awhile before it gets to the stupid and silly stage. Killer dm? It sucks from character creation until he finally "wins" and kills you all. And I bet if your group found a way to beat him? Oh yeah, dice chucking, swearing, and rocks fall, everyone dies type responses.

EvilDM
2011-09-08, 12:59 PM
I really don't see how these are the only choices.

I run a low wealth world, new level 1's usually remember when they earned their first gold coin and there really aren't too many magic items, but in no way, shape or form am I out to get the players unless I'm controlling an NPC who is out to get the players. I like to challenge but I never have put a group into a no win situation that results in them dying.

Overall I'm of the opinion that the linked examples need some expanding before they are worthy of consideration.

Sipex
2011-09-08, 01:01 PM
I think it's a philisophical exercise.

"IE: Of these two extremes, which would you prefer if you HAD to choose."

The second question about what kind of DM you are though...yeah...that's kind of unfair. Maybe "Which are you more like" would be more appropriate.

Greenish
2011-09-08, 01:10 PM
The first question goes to the players of the playground, what kind of game master do you prefer, the Killer GM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster) or the Monty Haul (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MontyHaul)?Neither. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption)

Mastikator
2011-09-08, 01:10 PM
No you can pick a balance. I was unclear about that and apologize.
Lets say between 1 and 10, where 1 is the killer GM who'd give you the cursed item as a reward, and 10 is the monty haul who lets you stumble over magic items on the ground.

Traab
2011-09-08, 01:14 PM
Id go for a 5-7 range towards monty. I want a challenge, but I also want a nice reward at the end of it when I find a way past everything. I dont want a dm who is obsessed with killing me, and I dont want my level 2 warrior to loot a +7 sword of everything slaying.

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-08, 01:25 PM
I'd prefer the Killer DM if only because I know my group can never be trusted with a Monty Haul.

pendell
2011-09-08, 01:27 PM
I'd say 3-4. To my mind, the game feels more fantastic if the fantastic elements are set against a fairly ordinary world. Having a +3 sword means something if there are only 2 in the entire world. Scarcity means greater appreciation for such goodies as do exist. By contrast, something like forbidden realms where every tavern owner is an epic-level retired adventurer with a +bazillion mace of killemall under the bar to keep order becomes boring. When everything is special, nothing is.

Also, finding the truly powerful, ultimate items to be initially cursed or unuseable isn't a problem provided A) there is some reliable way of identifying them as such and B) there is some mechanism for making them functional.

Nethack veterans know very well the worst thing you can with a scroll you've just found is to read it, or to just slip on an unidentified ring. There are all kinds of tips and tricks to narrow down just what it is you've found, whether it's dangerous, and if it is how to negate the penalties and produce a useful artifact. Done right, it can add a bit of detective work to a game, which is fun for people like me. Done wrong, of course, it's a source of annoyance.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-08, 01:35 PM
The first question goes to the players of the playground, what kind of game master do you prefer, the Killer GM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster) or the Monty Haul (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MontyHaul)?

Likewise to the game masters, what kind are you?

Neither. Both are bad. Hell, the same person could be both. Monty Haul gives you disproportionate rewards, and the killer GM is out to get you. Very DM vs player style.

They are both flaws.

EvilDM
2011-09-08, 01:37 PM
No you can pick a balance. I was unclear about that and apologize.
Lets say between 1 and 10, where 1 is the killer GM who'd give you the cursed item as a reward, and 10 is the monty haul who lets you stumble over magic items on the ground.

I would be in the 2-3 range myself, not out to kill you but always presenting challenges. When you got that special item or sum of money you'd know you earned it. Narrowly defeating a villain's sergeant only makes you wonder what his lieutenant might have in store for you.

The one exception to this is leveling, my skills based system allows for a lot of character customization. This internal advancement takes the place of external advancements like magic items and I like to allow my players to reach a certain level fairly quickly so they can define their characters better.

Jayabalard
2011-09-08, 02:01 PM
Hmm, I'm more of an "everything* in moderation" kinda person.

*for certain definitions of "everything" :smallsmile:you should take everything in moderation... including moderation.

Binks
2011-09-08, 02:20 PM
Obviously I prefer balance. I tend, on the other hands, too be too much of a monty haul gm. Part of that is impatience (if I give them some more xp/loot I can get to the epic climax faster) and part is me being a horrible judge of challenge and having some ridiculously effective players (even a series of 'hard' encounters barely phases them in 4E. Not high op or cheating, just great teamwork/prioritization).

Neither is good though.

Keinnicht
2011-09-08, 06:00 PM
I'm a mild Monty Haul. I don't hand out +5 Vorpal Swords to fifth level characters, but usually I make sure to leave items hand-picked to be useful to PCs, and I tend not to give out magic items I think are lame (Which sometimes leads to me giving PCs things that are a little more powerful than is appropriate for their level, but not massively so.)

I'm more of a Monty Haul in terms of non-treasure stuff, though. I usually request players play gestalt, I'm fine letting players be werewolves or vampires or whatever, I generally try to have characters level up every session until about level ten, etc.

All of these things are for the same reason: D&D characters are supposed to be AWESOME. For me, at least, gestalt characters make the game more fun more quickly - I mean, let's face it, being a level 1 wizard SUCKS. You're easy to hit, could easily die in one swing of an orc's falchion, you don't stand a good chance of hitting most things you're fighting, and you'll run out of spells in one or two encounters.

On the other hand, being a level 1 gestalt wizard/barbarian makes me feel more like my character is a budding hero, and less like my character is a budding osteoporosis patient.

However, I do balance it out by also putting PCs up against very difficult monsters and throwing in fairly nasty traps.

navar100
2011-09-08, 07:20 PM
Killer GMs hate their players. That is why they kill PCs. They view the players as the enemy. They always win because they are the GM.

I hate Killer GMs.

Knaight
2011-09-08, 07:32 PM
Lets say between 1 and 10, where 1 is the killer GM who'd give you the cursed item as a reward, and 10 is the monty haul who lets you stumble over magic items on the ground.

6i

Its not as if the two are actually even part of the same spectrum. One is brutality, the other loot distribution.

mrzomby
2011-09-08, 08:16 PM
If it is a sandbox game, I like monty haul DMs more, but if the DM has a general plot we are a part of, I like 3-4. If we are doing a 1 shot adventure while the normal DM takes a break, I prefer a 1, where each player needs to be extremely careful, and probably bring 2-3 characters. The gameplay with a 1 isn't fun for very long, but every once in a while.

QuidEst
2011-09-08, 08:34 PM
Well, if I had to pick between the extremes, I'd go with killer DM. There's some satisfaction in "beating" him, and I might enjoy that. If he's too killer, have fatalistic characters, and start playing with that. On the other hand, I would expect a Monty Haul DM to be easier to work with to fix things. If I had a Monty Haul DM that was set in his ways, I'd have a Bard and try to get them to ascend to DM-hood and one-up apotheosis. Otherwise, I'd make a themed character and do something like try to make Batman with all his gadgets.

That, of course, is all else being equal. If they have a darn good plot, I'd be okay milling characters or tripping over tons of items.

Kerrin
2011-09-08, 10:39 PM
you should take everything in moderation... including moderation.
Heh. I threw in the qualifier for "everything" because I believe in some happy-medium for most things, but there -are- things I don't want any of. Most of such things are very destructive. For example, I don't want to play a moderate amount of Russian roulette - I'd rather not play at all. :smallbiggrin:

Yourshallowpal
2011-09-09, 12:13 AM
Is there a name for "A GM who distributes no loot, at all, ever, but is otherwise moderate-easy in terms of difficulty?"

That's how I started out. (In my defense, I inherited it from my only prior DM. I didn't realize rewards were supposed to be frequent or substantial.)

I've lurched my way up and down the scale, since then. Due to long-term player availability issues, we're speeding towards the end of my campaign, going up a level every other session. (I don't want to nerf the encounters I made months ago, but they won't be available after November...)

So, I'm currently a bit of Monty Haul. I feel partially justified, in that they are rapidly gaining levels, and need to turn over to level-appropriate equipment very quickly.

I did make them roll up new characters once, for a two-part session where I explicitely said I was going to give killer DMing a shot.
- They were upset about some monsters that were way too high-level for them, but got over it when they decided to run away more often.
- One instant-kill trap made them afraid to try anything risky, ever, which took the fun out of role-playing.

So, killer DMing nudged more towards where I need to be. Absurdly high danger should be present, rare, and mostly with some method of minimizing the damage done.

Tvtyrant
2011-09-09, 12:31 AM
Depends on the campaign. In a one location game probably monty haul, in a wilderness game probably killer.

If I was playing a game where we were supposed to be fighting in Sigil, for instance, I would want a lot of magical items floating around. In a dungeon I would expect them to be mostly one use, and in the wilderness items would be scarce.

joe
2011-09-09, 12:33 AM
On the 1-10 scale, I think I prefer my games in the realm of 3-4.

As a DM, I am probably on the other end of that, though I can't really fall under either category. On one hand, I'm probably more nice to my players than I should be, but as they can attest, I am also very stingy with giving out magic items (mostly to maintain a low-magic campaign).

I'm probably closer to the Monty Haul however.

SowZ
2011-09-09, 12:39 AM
Killer GMs hate their players. That is why they kill PCs. They view the players as the enemy. They always win because they are the GM.

I hate Killer GMs.

By killer GMs, do you mean lethal GMs or GMs who actually want their players to die? I am certainly closer to two to four on the scale of mortality, (PC death rate is about every third session,) and there are always consequences to actions. There are actually fewer combats because combat is so lethal, the PCs want the combats to be things they plan out.

But I want the players to achieve. I simulate the game world and if their choices lead to death, so be it. It is their actions and the risks of being an adventurer that suceed or help them. It won't be me pushing them one way or the other. Still, I like seeing characters, against all odds, overcoming and defeating the enemy. I like to see them resolve their subplots. In also like to see a good story with serious complications and have players with great satisfcation when they do achieve.

But I am still very lethal as a GM. Wealth is earned by your actions and if you don't actions to gain it I won't nudge things so you have your WBL. Would that be a Killer GM by your estimation?

I prefer a Killer GM, but I want to have a GM who feels like he is 'winning' when everyone is having fun, they are invested in their characters/story, and he simulates a solid world. Not 'winning' when the players are dying.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-09, 12:32 PM
low-magic campaign)

Are there full casters in your world?

pendell
2011-09-09, 12:37 PM
Have some additional thoughts on dungeon rewards which I'll throw here to see if anyone agrees with 'em or not.

Am I the only one who is annoyed by JRPGs where you can buy the coolest and best weapons from the local store, and that same storeowner will happily buy any artifact you give them at list price without batting an eyelash?

I suggest that your average store should sell average weapons -- normal weapons, some mastercraft, maybe a few +1 or +2 devices. The really cool stuff should be very expensive -- and very exclusive. The high-end stuff would probably require a pilgrimmage to someplace like Waterdeep -- a place where a great deal of wealth is concentrated , where there are stores and storeowners who have deep pockets. They can afford to pay Big money for unique, powerful items because they have equally wealthy, equally powerful buyers.

You would not only have to go to such a place to buy such items, you would also have to go to such a place to sell them as well. Imagine you try to sell an artifact weapon to a village blacksmith for 50000 gold pieces. The blacksmith should refuse the deal. He doesn't HAVE 50,000 gold pieces. And even if he did have the money to buy it , who would he re-sell it to? Hope that in the midst of hundreds of humdrum villagers wanting nails made for silver pieces, some other party of high-levels comes through? One that would be willing to fork over >50,000 gold pieces to a low-level expert instead of simply killing him for it?

Which raises the question.

What kind of shopkeeper deals in things like the +12 hackmaster? Given the unique rarity of the weapon, what's to stop some high-level party of assassins from simply robbing him?

It implies that a shop dealing in such high-end goods is probably a high-level dungeon in it's own right. The fact that the storekeeper has such goods for sale implies that s/he has the ability to secure those goods, which means they are either high-level NPCs with backstory to match, or they can afford to pay for really, really, high-level security. In any case, they can't be simply a glorified vending machine.

It occurs to me that such a shop might be a source of adventure hooks in and of itself -- the storeowner is probably on the lookout for new wares. They probably have a list of items they are willing to acquire and a price they'd be willing to pay for them, so there's a series of sidequests with reward right there. Securing the shop against a high-level raiding party would be another adventure. Or, turn it the other way around and raid the shop despite its defenses.

I guess what I'm describing is a "not Monty Haul" campaign world. I think rewards are cheapened if the item you just broke the Tomb of Horrors to acquire can be bought at the next town for XXXX gold pieces. I would want a world where the really unique and powerful stuff comes either directly from questing, or from very high-level shops and places which are quests in their own right. And I would like those shops to make a certain amount of sense. As I explained, it doesn't make sense for a level 1 expert shopkeeper to buy and sell artifacts many times higher than his own level. S/he has neither the ability to secure them from greedy adventurers nor any prospect of selling them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tvtyrant
2011-09-09, 05:04 PM
This is why I suggest that a city campaign be item full; Howl's Weapon Emporium is going to be literally jammed full of +5 weapons that people come from out of state plane to buy, and Vespro's House of Tox sells 55 kinds of poison, and 35 ravages. Each of these places, along with magic shops and alchemical retailers are going to have tremendous amounts of security and their own magical gold vaults. Outside street vendors sell cheap merchandise that you can easily steal, but the good stuff has to be bought or adventured for.

Ashiel
2011-09-09, 05:06 PM
The first question goes to the players of the playground, what kind of game master do you prefer, the Killer GM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster) or the Monty Haul (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MontyHaul)? (pick a balance between them)

Likewise to the game masters, what kind are you?

I'm both. Sort of. I'm brutally vicious when it comes to designing encounters. My NPCs fight dirty. They use potions, wands, scrolls. They use terrain. When you get to the light at the end of the tunnel, god hope it's not collapsing in on you as well. But what is the reward?

Well generally it's gratuitous amounts of treasure! Piles an piles of copper pieces as far as they eye can see (hey, it's treasure :smallamused:). Plus you get to keep all the phat loots that you acquired getting here, like the potions that ogre never got to use before he was blinded and then struck down by a ramming tackle and sneak attack combo.

Then of course, you get the treasure for all those traps and monsters and such who didn't have gear. Piled up as high as grown men; like that that time the party opened the vault in the foundry to find 5,000 gold pieces worth of copper bars! That's 10,000 lbs of Wealth! Money and fame is yours to be had! Might even find a +5 competence bonus to your Disguise checks that swaps your gender when you put it on.

Of course, you finds lots of cool stuff in addition to all that wealth. In addition to the vast collection of consumable items, art objects, gems, tapestries, dusty old tomes, you're likely to find lots of level appropriate equipment, many of which will have special abilities attached. A +1 heavy steel shield that shoot up to 5d4 fire damag per day as burning hands is pretty cool.

Now the next adventure is getting the treasure back to town! You're twelve miles outside of town. Time go get 10,000 lbs of copper bars out of the two story dungeon's vault and back to civilization! :smallbiggrin:

Provengreil
2011-09-09, 05:15 PM
I've had a monty haul DM. I took Vow of poverty for my own sanity from all the bookkeeping.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-09, 05:17 PM
I've had a monty haul DM. I took Vow of poverty for my own sanity from all the bookkeeping.

As general advice, don't take VoP, just give whatever you don't want to charity.

Provengreil
2011-09-09, 05:24 PM
As general advice, don't take VoP, just give whatever you don't want to charity.

meh. we were so low op at the time it actually was pretty even(also, i was a sorcerer so there's a good bit of its issues lessened)

navar100
2011-09-09, 06:27 PM
By killer GMs, do you mean lethal GMs or GMs who actually want their players to die? I am certainly closer to two to four on the scale of mortality, (PC death rate is about every third session,) and there are always consequences to actions. There are actually fewer combats because combat is so lethal, the PCs want the combats to be things they plan out.

But I want the players to achieve. I simulate the game world and if their choices lead to death, so be it. It is their actions and the risks of being an adventurer that suceed or help them. It won't be me pushing them one way or the other. Still, I like seeing characters, against all odds, overcoming and defeating the enemy. I like to see them resolve their subplots. In also like to see a good story with serious complications and have players with great satisfcation when they do achieve.

But I am still very lethal as a GM. Wealth is earned by your actions and if you don't actions to gain it I won't nudge things so you have your WBL. Would that be a Killer GM by your estimation?

I prefer a Killer GM, but I want to have a GM who feels like he is 'winning' when everyone is having fun, they are invested in their characters/story, and he simulates a solid world. Not 'winning' when the players are dying.

By saying that, yes you are a Killer GM. You can say you want the players to succeed all you want, but if you're proud of yourself of being lethal, you're a Killer DM.

I am not saying player characters should never be killed, ever, but character death should not be something a DM craves, boasts, or otherwise have a cavalier attitude about. A player should not have to need a back up character.

SowZ
2011-09-09, 06:37 PM
By saying that, yes you are a Killer GM. You can say you want the players to succeed all you want, but if you're proud of yourself of being lethal, you're a Killer DM.

I am not saying player characters should never be killed, ever, but character death should not be something a DM craves, boasts, or otherwise have a cavalier attitude about. A player should not have to need a back up character.

What makes you assume I am proud of being lethal? I am not proud or ashamed of it. And I think if I provided you with a list of times when PCs have died, you would probably agree that they were reasonable and not things I set out to do. I don't bring out god and the machine to save my players if their actions lead to their deaths.

Yourshallowpal
2011-09-09, 07:57 PM
I did have the party engage in a skill challenge once that involved searching a local market for whatever magic items they were seeking, and then haggling over price. My reasoning was it would keep magic items from seeming too common.

Additionally, it would allow for the occasional thrill of getting a powerful weapon at a discount, through use of skill. (Up to 50% off, after a "find," check, a luck die for random price fluctuations, and a haggling check.)

It ended up with the party being incredibly annoyed, as they all rolled poorly, and none of them bought the items they thought they'd saved up enough for.

Additionally, they were in town to run a dungeon, so now they felt they had to choose between
1) grinding a dozen or random encounters to save up,
2) using items that didn't sync well with their powers, or
3) entering a life-and-death scenario while under-powered.

I tried to fix it by having a villain (who wanted to steal a useful but non-essential plot coupon from them) introduce herself, and offer to guide them to the more "honest" dealers. But the cleric rolled well on her Insight check and they assumed they were being conned. They killed her, and acted like they had no choice but to enter the dungeon, ASAP, or they'd face waves of irritating cons/REs in the streets.

Since then, I just let them buy the items at market price, but only when resting in a large city between dungeons/quests. It's the best compromise I can manage.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-09-09, 08:11 PM
Going with the idea that they're two scales... It depends.

For a fiat heavy DM, loot doesn't matter (anywhere on MH scale), and I'd want less brutality (far from Killer GM), because if it's all cutscenes anyway, it might as well be cutscenes of our characters doing awesome things and generally being awesome. And before you tell me heavy loot or DM kindness takes away from the glory of victory, check the previous "if" clause.

For a more by-the-books DM, I like loot to be 5-7 towards Monty Haul since more wealth generally allows everyone to feel like they're contributing. Too much, of course, often leads to wealth disparity either in total value of items or in the usefulness of said items (I once, at low levels, got a randomly-rolled greater rod of... enlarge spell). On the Killer GM scale I actually like it somewhere around 3, since surprising the DM with interesting tactics and defeating his meat-grinding encounter is a great experience when the tactic isn't fiated away.

Acanous
2011-09-09, 08:51 PM
I actually preffer my DM to be a by the book sort. That's the sort I am, that's the sort I expect to see, and that's the sort I build my character and story for.
If suddenly, my 4th level Barbarian from the northern wastes gets hit with a template that gives him bunches of SLA's, just so he can use them during a preplanned cutscene, it feels like the plot doesn't care about your character. If you get hit with oodles of GP, I immediately go on the defensive, expecting something to happen which will relieve us from it. (Which is entirely reasonable IC, folks who come into a lot of wealth do one of two things: Go on spending sprees, or find a good place to protect it)

Tyndmyr
2011-09-10, 08:11 AM
Since then, I just let them buy the items at market price, but only when resting in a large city between dungeons/quests. It's the best compromise I can manage.

It's the easiest solution. I tend to occasionally end a session in some sort of civilization, and just give a blanket "anything below x gold" is available here". Then, they can take care of all the flipping through books and shopping between sessions.

Cause, frankly, a session of roleplaying a shopping trip bores me to tears. Someone is always indecisive, someone else doesn't know the items well...there's not enough books to go around, someone else is trying to haggle over every last gold piece, and in the back of someone's mind is the possibility of conning/stealing the merchants and getting both money and items.

Nah. Save the RP time for more important things.

SowZ
2011-09-10, 11:24 AM
It's the easiest solution. I tend to occasionally end a session in some sort of civilization, and just give a blanket "anything below x gold" is available here". Then, they can take care of all the flipping through books and shopping between sessions.

Cause, frankly, a session of roleplaying a shopping trip bores me to tears. Someone is always indecisive, someone else doesn't know the items well...there's not enough books to go around, someone else is trying to haggle over every last gold piece, and in the back of someone's mind is the possibility of conning/stealing the merchants and getting both money and items.

Nah. Save the RP time for more important things.

That's one solution that works. Another to solve that problem is not to allow them to flip through books during the session to find items. Their character wouldn't know about that many types of magic items, most likely. Rather, they can just say they are shopping and I will tell them all notable/magic items for sale in a short list.

Either way works, depending on if it is a high magic setting I suppose. It is one of those things where if you don't go to one side or the other and try to go in the middle, there can be a lot of time spent doing boring things.