Help with a new Gish

[macdaddy]

I am starting in a D&D 3.5 campaign after a looooong side treck into a Hackmaster and then Gamma world Campaign(8 years?).

I believe that we will be starting at 1st level. I would like to play a Gish, as it has always been one of my favorites. However, I honestly have no idea about how to structure one in 3.5.

I am completely unsure of what Race (Dwarf, Human, Elf?), classes/prestige classes to get, in what order, and what feats to take.

The only thing I have settled on really, is to use a two-handed sword for my melee weapon, and that I would prefer the spell casting class to be sorcerer or Wizard (no bard. I just dislike them).

My only exposure to playing this type of class in 3.5 was on NWN2 using FTR2/Wiz5/Eld Kn 10 or something like that.

I searched on the site, and found a few things, but nothing specific enough to help me out (Haven't played 3rd edition in 8 years or so). I am looking for as much help as possible to bail me out!

Thanx in advance

[Curious]

Play a Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). It's got Wizard-like flavor, and is a gish right out of the box.

[Urpriest]

Play a Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). It's got Wizard-like flavor, and is a gish right out of the box.

Not Pathfinder, as far as the OP says.

Given that, Duskblade (PHBII) is the classic Gish-in-a-can, capable of blasting things with magic and swording them to death with equal ease. It's not all that versatile, but it can keep up, and it's viable from level 1.

I'll let others detail the standard Wizard based gishes.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Since I don't know your list of resources, here ya go! "On hitting things through the applications of arcane formula." (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0)

[herrhauptmann]

I'd suggest the Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage.
Also, a level of spellsword for reduced arcane spell failure.

Race? Human for the extra feat if you want power. (Or something that boosts int without a level adjustment)

Spells? Most gish handbooks, it looks like they just grabbed a spell list from the god wizard handbook or something. Blah.
So, here's a better list I got with some help from Shneekey
1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)
If you're playing a Good character, I'd say add the Luminous Armor spells from BoED.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This can tell you what books to find stuff in. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) Prestige classes and feats are particularly elusive if you're not already familiar with what comes from which book.

Always get Power Attack, Arcane Strike (CW), Practiced Spellcaster (CA, CD), try to include Leap Attack (CV), Combat Reflexes is highly recommended especially starting low level, and you'll want the spell Wraithstrike (CV, SC). You can use a Lesser Rod of Extend to cast Wraithstrike half as often, which even spontaneously cast it won't increase the casting time due to the wording on those rules. A Wand of Wraithstrike is still a swift action to use, so get a weapon with a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) and once you get some wealth you can load that up and never run out of those. Persistent Spell (CD, CA) is also highly recommended for the higher levels, or for free metamagic cheese if the rest of your party is high-powered.

Physical ability scores become irrelevant when you get access to Polymorph, so don't stress out over Str or Dex. You'll want your Constitution and your casting stat to be high, Str at least 14 probably, and Dex can be low if you plan to wear heavy armor early on. Draconic Polymorph in the Draconomicon is even better, and it's an eligible target for Persistent Spell.

The standard Sorcerer gish build goes Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which gets 9th level spells and +16 BAB at 20th. There's plenty of spell slots to spend on Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, you can use wands of Paladin spells, and you can get Divine Might (CW) once you take Sacred Exorcist. Note that once you hit Sacred Exorcist 4 you can trade out Dismissal for a different spell known, as its Dispel Evil spell-like ability will meet its own spellcasting prerequisite for you. If you don't want to play LG there are paladin variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) for every alignment extreme, though good-aligned you can take Arcane Preparation (CA) to use exalted spells (BoED) such as (Greater) Luminous Armor, which benefits from Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor ability. Human is probably best, though you could pick Illumian (RoD) with the Naenhoon runeword and use it with Sacred Exorcist to put Persistent Spell on two of your buffs, such as Wraithstrike and Displacement.

The strongest Wizard based gish would probably be Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 (or Knight Phantom 4). The first six levels can have some variation, such as starting out Wizard 4/ Crusader 2, or Wizard 4/ Crusader 1/ Warblade 1, etc. If you pick Elf (Gray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) or Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire) or Snow in FB) or Human you could instead start Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2, or replace Fighter with Crusader and take it at 6th, though starting at 1st level it will be slightly more difficult. The Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant can get you a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Incantatrix allows you to add Persistent Spell to any qualifying spell (personal or set range, not touch) without increasing the spell slot it's cast from, so pretty much all of your personal-range buffs get to last all day with one casting, even if their normal duration would only be a single round.

Starting in the lower levels, you'll want to either play as a primary caster and stay out of melee until you get Polymorph, or play cautiously as a primary melee and mostly use spells that don't have any somatic components. Get Combat Reflexes and use a reach weapon such as a Glaive, and you should be able to ride out a few levels just like that. If you wear armor spikes with a reach weapon you'll still threaten adjacent squares and be able to AoO adjacent opponents. It doesn't take any actions to take one hand off a two-handed weapon or to put it back on, so you'll still be able to use somatic components when using a 2H weapon. In the unlikely event that someone attacks you while you're casting and provokes an AoO (when you're unable to attack with your 2h weapon), you can still make that AoO with your armor spikes provided they're within reach, so there's not really any drawback at all to arming yourself in this manner.

[Greenish]

Gish from first levels is a bit tricky, since it takes a while to come together, unless you use a canned version. Duskblade is okay, psychic warrior is grand if psionics count. At lower levels, wizard with a sword and decent Str/Con can do okay (just don't get hit).

Things like sorcadin (paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurant champion5/etc) or swiftblade (wizard or sorcerer6/swiftblade X) come on their own as gishes on later levels.

[macdaddy]

Thanx guys

So far I have 3 builds to choose from:

Human, LG
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Human
Fighter 2/ Transmuter 2/ Fighter 2/ Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 9

Dwarf
Fighter 2/ Wiz 4/ Spellsword 5/ Eldritch Knight 9


At heart,I am a power gamer :) so I would like an optimal build.

I like the pally/sorc, but am afraid he won't live very well at low levels.

The Ftr/Transmuter will probably survive well in the early game, but he loses out on ASF from spellsword, and loses quite a few spell casting levels.

The last one loses out on the same number of spell casting levels, but gains a lot of additional bennies compared to the second, and is perhaps not as survivable early on?

What do people think? I had already looked at the links provided, and there is very little consensus on optimal builds and/or what to take...

[Essence_of_War]

If you want something a little more surviveable at early levels, you could try something like this:

To toss some more things in the mix:

Duskblade4/Warblade2/Suel Arcanamach4/Abj Champion 5/Spellsword1/Warblade 3-6

OR

Hexblade 5/Crusader1/AbjChampion5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9

The former uses the Suel Arcanamach PrC which gets its own casting progression and has some really neat tricks for extending buffs, resisting dispelling, and being good at dispelling other people's stuff.

The latter uses the much more limited Hexblade casting progression, and is focused on melee/ToB. It does pick up Mettle, and the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance, which are both nice.

Both are quite survivable at all levels.

Edit: Honestly, the straight duskblade is quite playable to high levels. If you want a good, right out of the box gish, it's hard to go wrong with the duskblade. It even has its own handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)!

[Eldariel]

What do people think? I had already looked at the links provided, and there is very little consensus on optimal builds and/or what to take...

Rule of thumb, far as power goes, lose as few caster levels as possible. If you wish a Wizard-base, I suggest either:

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight ->

Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist ->

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5


Note, I personally prefer Ranger over Fighter for the skills; it costs you Spellsword but outside the Fighter 2-build Spellsword is not integral to the build progression anyways so you're fine.

[macdaddy]

Ok, after a LOT of thought, I have decided to go with
Pal 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Edlritch Knight *

So, now I need help picking Race, Stats and Feats

I am guessing that human is my only real option, unless there is a class without a CL that gives me a +CHA bonus that makes a good gish?

For stats, using point buy system, obviously CHA 16/17, But I am not sure what other stats to pump up. I am guessing Dex is not seriously needed (a 10 maybe a 12?), STR around a 14, then Wis/Int at 12?

Does Arcane Spell Preperation allow you to prepare a Meta magic feat sorcerer spell as a "normal" spell so it is no longer a move equivalent action, thus making quicken spell useful?

Feats:
Power Attack
Practiced spell caster(? is this needed with Abj Champ?)
Extend Spell
Arcane Spell Preperation
Quicken Spell
Permanancy
Improved Init

What else?

[Eldariel]

Ok, after a LOT of thought, I have decided to go with
Pal 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Edlritch Knight *

So, now I need help picking Race, Stats and Feats

I am guessing that human is my only real option, unless there is a class without a CL that gives me a +CHA bonus that makes a good gish?

For stats, using point buy system, obviously CHA 16/17, But I am not sure what other stats to pump up. I am guessing Dex is not seriously needed (a 10 maybe a 12?), STR around a 14, then Wis/Int at 12?

Does Arcane Spell Preperation allow you to prepare a Meta magic feat sorcerer spell as a "normal" spell so it is no longer a move equivalent action, thus making quicken spell useful?

Feats:
Power Attack
Practiced spell caster(? is this needed with Abj Champ?)
Extend Spell
Arcane Spell Preperation
Quicken Spell
Permanancy
Improved Init

What else?

Arcane Preparation pales in comparison to Rapid Metamagic [Complete Mage]. You also definitely need Arcane Strike [Complete Warrior] in there. Improved Initiative is probably not worth it and neither is Persistent Spell. Divine Might [Complete Divine] could get you Charisma to damage a lot of times per day once you get to Sacred Exorcist. You already have Power Attack to qualify, too.

Good races include:
Lesser Aasimar [Player's Guide to Faerun - Basically Humanoid-version of Aasimar with LA +0]
Star Elf [Unapproachable East]
Strongheart Halfling [Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings]
Human [PHB]


For point buy, depending on what exactly you're working with you should probably look at:
As high Charisma as possible (18 is optimal, of course - that said, Gishes are notorious for requiring multiple attributes and thus can't afford it quite as easily)
10ish Wisdom and Intelligence
14+ Strength
14+ Constitution
As much Dex as possible (I'd go 14+ there).

[Urpriest]

Ok, after a LOT of thought, I have decided to go with
Pal 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Edlritch Knight *

So, now I need help picking Race, Stats and Feats

I am guessing that human is my only real option, unless there is a class without a CL that gives me a +CHA bonus that makes a good gish?

For stats, using point buy system, obviously CHA 16/17, But I am not sure what other stats to pump up. I am guessing Dex is not seriously needed (a 10 maybe a 12?), STR around a 14, then Wis/Int at 12?

Does Arcane Spell Preperation allow you to prepare a Meta magic feat sorcerer spell as a "normal" spell so it is no longer a move equivalent action, thus making quicken spell useful?

Feats:
Power Attack
Practiced spell caster(? is this needed with Abj Champ?)
Extend Spell
Arcane Spell Preperation
Quicken Spell
Permanancy
Improved Init

What else?

I know it won't come up for a while, but I really wouldn't use Eldritch Knight at the end of that build. It loses a caster level, making it so you won't ever get 9th level spells unless your game goes epic. I'd switch it for Sacred Exorcist. You'll still manage decent BAB, and you get a few new toys like Turn Undead.

Permanency isn't a feat, what did you mean to put down?

Arcane Spell Preparation does exactly that. That's what it's for.

[LordBlades]

I'd also suggest taking a look at Spellscale from Races of the Dragon. +2 cha -2 con, bunch of nice abilities, and being dragonblood opens access to some nice feats, including Practical Metamagic

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If Lesser Assimar is an option, it's a +0 LA race with a +2 CHA bonus.

Just remember, you can take one of the class variants of Paladin to suit your alignment needs so you don't have to play 'stick up your pigu' all the time.

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist

is the advancement you're looking for, actually.

Doesn't AbChamp require Combat Casting or some such feat tax? You're gonna need to pick that up.

In addition to the excellent spell list mentioned above, there's a couple others you may wish to consider:

Improved Mirror Image (4th). Basically, it regenerates mirror images every round. And it's a swift-action cast. What's not to love? Best way to not get hit? 12.5% chance of being hit by any given attack is a good start.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For the Paladin/Sorcerer build, if you're getting Persistent Spell then use Illumian (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) for your race, from Races of Destiny. Illumians get two power sigils among the glowing runes encircling their head, and those two sigils combine to a runeword. Each individual sigil and each runeword has a benefit, you'll want Naen and Hoon, to make the Naenhoon runeword which allows an effect similar to the Divine Metamagic feat in Complete Divine. The difference here is that Divine Metamagic can only be used on divine spells, whereas Naenhoon has no such limitation and can be used with arcane spells. This allows you to spend turn undead attempts from Sacred Exorcist to add Persistent Spell to a buff without paying the standard spell slot or casting time increase. If you're not going to use Illumian, then don't even bother with Persistent Spell or even Extend Spell. (Lesser) Metamagic Rods of Extend are extremely cheap and can fulfill all of your Extend Spell needs without investing a feat or higher spell slot.

Arcane Preparation is mostly to gain access to exalted spells from Book of Exalted Deeds, namely Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor which provide protection equal to breastplate and full plate respectively. They're similar to Mage Armor in that they don't have a max dex limit, don't slow you down at all, and you're not even considered armored when under their effect. Additionally, opponents who use sight take a -4 penalty to hit you because the armor is so bright. It's the only useful armor bonus spell that benefits from Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor ability, and it's better than any armor you could buy until extremely high levels of wealth. Plus exalted spells can be cast by any exalted character who prepares spells, you don't have to spend a spell known to learn any of them.

Quicken Spell is not worth taking, since with current rules a quickened spell takes a swift action to cast and there are much better things to spend your swift action on every round. Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, any 3rd level or lower abjuration spell thanks to Abjurant Champion, and several other useful spells take a swift action to cast, so it's like they're already quickened for free. You can get the feat Minor Shapeshift from Complete Mage, and you can spend a swift action every round to gain temporary HP equal to your level, which makes you take that much less actual damage from the next hit you take. You can also get a Circlet of Rapid Casting from Magic Item Compendium to make three 2nd level or lower spells per day take a Swift action to cast, which basically quickens them for free but it doesn't have the casting time increase of metamagic so it works with spontaneous casters.

Starting at 1st level you'll want to use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes. With point buy, a 14 is your most efficient stat, so try to put Str, Dex, and Con all at 14, Cha 16, Wis either 11+ (to use paladin wands) or 8 (your save can afford it), Int 10 is plenty since you only need Concentration and your prestige class and feat prerequisites. Use the Harmonious Knight substitution level (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (the 'Download now' link) to get Inspire Courage, and get a Badge of Valor (MIC) when you can to increase the bonus to +2. You can also use Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill, which can really come in handy. You may as well also get the Magical Affinity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) bonus class feature for Sorcerer, Outsider would probably be the best choice since so many can disguise themselves, plus it gives you a reason to say he gained his sorcerer abilities from a celestial lineage. Edit: There's also the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature in PHB2, which trades your familiar for the ability to ignore the casting time increase of using metamagic a certain number of times each day.

[Greenish]

Wis either 11+ (to use paladin wands)What does Wis score have to do with using wands? :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What does Wis score have to do with using wands? :smallconfused:

You still need to have the minimum ability score to cast that spell to use a spell trigger or spell completion item of that spell. It's 10 + spell level, so Wis 12 allows you to use wands of 1st and 2nd level paladin spells.

[Fenryr]

You still need to have the minimum ability score to cast that spell to use a spell trigger or spell completion item of that spell. It's 10 + spell level, so Wis 12 allows you to use wands of 1st and 2nd level paladin spells.

I may be wrong but that rule only applies to scrolls. Wands are used only by UMD.

[Bloodgruve]

I am currently playing an Ardent with homebrewed Medium BAB. I really like the feel of the build, using ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Substitute Powers to gain Claws of the Beast in the Natural World mantle. Mantles of Natural World, Freedom, Conflict and Force are fun. Weapon Focus (Claws) from Conflict and Offensive Precognition set you up pretty good in Melee. Freedom keeps you mobile. If freedom is your Dominant Ideal ACF you can link Hustle and do some fun stuff too. Nice Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=1j2q6h7bfue86t0qguu23ee0e0&topic=5871.0) to look at.

Something to look at.

GL
Blood~

*Yep, I was mixed up for some reason, Ardents run medium BAB standard.

[Essence_of_War]

currently playing an Ardent with homebrewed Medium BAB

Doesn't the Ardent have medium BAB out of the box?

[Greenish]

You still need to have the minimum ability score to cast that spell to use a spell trigger or spell completion item of that spell. It's 10 + spell level, so Wis 12 allows you to use wands of 1st and 2nd level paladin spells.That doesn't sound right. Especially given that you don't have to be able to cast the spell in the first place to use spell trigger items.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, I had to go to the Rules Compendium just to find anything about a minimum ability score to activate an item containing a spell. Scrolls do require 10 + spell level in your casting stat, but spell trigger items have no such requirement. So in the case of this character, Wisdom can be a dump stat, you won't need to be making Spot or Listen checks and your Will save should still be plenty high after just a few levels.

[macdaddy]

Ok, so here is what I am thinking

Race:
============
Human, or Lesser Aasimar if it is available

Stats:
============
Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Chr: 16
Then apply racial bonuses if available.

Level Progression:
=============
paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spell sword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 8 (in that order)


Feats:
====================
1: power attack, Combat Reflexes
3: practiced spell caster(??)
6: combat casting
9: arcane strike
12: open feat (Extend Spell?? Arcane Preperation??)
15: divine might
18: open feat (??)

I will begin by using a reach weapon, some kind of pole arm I suspect (glaive). I can always switch over to something else as appropriate at later levels.

I will be going for these spells early:
=====================
1st Level Spells:
Grease
Mage Armor
Nerverskitter
Shield
Fist of Stone(?)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image
Wraithstrike
Alter Self
Bull Strength, Cats Grace?

3rd Level Spells:
Haste
Dispel Magic

4th Level Spells:
Dimension Door
Polymorph


Any ideas on what to do for my open feats? Any other suggestions or glaring ommisions?

[Lonely Tylenol]

For your spare feats, Travel Devotion is nice if you can swing it--as a swift action, it grants you a move action (somewhat like Lesser Celerity, but on your turn only), which is great for, say, moving into position to make a full-round attack for the extra iterative attacks (which you can pump with Divine Might or Arcane Strike as a free action).

Feats also blow the potential for turn undead uses wide open, which is GREAT for you, because you will have a ton of turn uses from your high CHA score, but a pitifully weak effective cleric level that won't be strong enough to turn most undead outright. Granted, the two big ones are Divine Might (which you have) and Divine Metamagic (which you likely won't have, because it's too feat-intensive at this point), but there are a few honorable mentions (with props and slops):

Sacred Healing: Expend a turn use during a full-round action to grant fast healing 3 for 1+CHA mod rounds to everyone within a 60-ft. burst. Requires 8 ranks in Heal. (Source: Complete Divine p. 84)
Best for out-of-combat healing; a 26 CHA, which is 4 points from levels and a +6 item with your current stats, gives you nine rounds of fast healing 3, or about 27 damage for everybody per turn use - not a bad way to burn a few spares between combat. This is strictly better than Sacred Boost, which doesn't get an honorable mention.

Ancestral Whispers: Expend a turn use during a standard action to gain a +4 bonus to one skill for 1+CHA mod rounds. During this time, the skill is treated as a trained skill, and you can take 10 while rushed or threatened on that skill. (Source: Eberron: Faiths of Eberron p. 145)
Decent utility; with a good DEX score, you could pick a lock or disarm a trap in a pinch. Frankly, I don't recommend it if you have a Rogue or Bard (or other skill monkey) to do it for you, as you'll never be as good at it.

Sacred Purification: Expend a turn use and a swift action to heal all living creatures within a 60-ft. burst for 1d8+CHA mod damage, and damage all undead creatures within a 60-ft. burst damage. Requires Sacred Healing (the PhBII version, which is terrible) as a prerequisite (though if you could talk your DM into letting you use Sacred Healing as a prereq, it would be less awful). (Source: Player's Handbook II p. 89)
This is your in-combat healing option. You'll rarely (if ever) get 20 damage or healing out of this thing, but it's a swift action to use, so it doesn't interfere with the rest of your plans. I tend to avoid in-combat healing, and since you don't have two feats to spare in the early levels, this will likely come online too late to matter in the middle of battle. It's basically your "emergency patchwork" ability if you feel you need it. Still not terrible, and the damage is strictly better than Divine Vengeance/Sacred Vengeance in almost every case, however, so worthy of mention.

Divine Vigor: Expend a turn use as a standard action to gain +10 ft. movement speed and +2 temporary hit points/level for CHA mod minutes. (Source: Complete Warrior p.20)
Moving faster than everything else is nice. The +2 hit points/level aren't bad either, but I'd think the 10 feet of movement is the draw here. Pick from the low-hanging fruit first, though. I think this is strictly better than Divine Alacrity, which gives you +30 feet of movement as a swift action, but for only one round (which makes it Swift Expeditious Retreat in feat form, basically), but I can see times when you just need that extra 30 feet NOW. For that purpose, however, Travel Devotion is better than both of these.

[Godskook]

Plus exalted spells can be cast by any exalted character who prepares spells, you don't have to spend a spell known to learn any of them.

I'm curious, how are you arriving at this rule?

[Coidzor]

Minor Shapeshift - Complete Mage. One source of freshing temp HP for when something does manage to get through. Bout the only reserve feat of note for a gish.

There's a Runesmith or something from Races of Stone, which includes its own work-around ASF and also creates things (like items of animate dead) that can be used by the rest of the party.

[Runestar]

I too would go with duskblade, it seeming like the simplest and most elegant to play. :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

I like swiftblades myself; the extra standard action can be used in so many wonderful ways.

[Coidzor]

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) linkery.

[macdaddy]

I was looking through the requirements for Sacred Exorcist. I don't see how it is possible to create a Pal 2 /Sorc 4/SpSw 1 / Abj Champ 5 / Exorcist N.

To be a sacred exorcist, you need Knowledge(planes) =10.

It is a cross class skill for Pal, Sorc, spell sword, and abjurant champ. So at 12th level, the highest that skill can be is (12 + 3) /2 = 7.5

So how is this class progression supposed to work?

[Eldariel]

I was looking through the requirements for Sacred Exorcist. I don't see how it is possible to create a Pal 2 /Sorc 4/Swb 1 / Abj Champ 5 / Exorcist N.

To be a sacred exorcist, you need Knowledge(planes) =10.

It is a cross class skill for Pal, Sorc, Swashb, and abjurant champ. So at 12th level, the highest that skill can be is (12 + 3) /2 = 7.5

So how is this class progression supposed to work?

It's a class skill for Spellsword [Complete Warrior] which raises your skill rank max to class skill max for your character. I don't see why you'd use Swashbuckler there anyways when it clearly makes no sense and provides you with nothing.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is the default.

[Godskook]

1.The progression is with spellsword, not swashbuckler, and spellsword does get knowledge(planes)

2.Feats can give you feats as class skills, most notably Knowledge Devotion. Able Learner would work too, since we get it from Spellsword.

[macdaddy]

uhm, typos... :)

I didnt see it on the spell sword, will look again

[Dayzgone]

Im going to throw in one of my old faves (if ToB is alowed)

Cleric 4/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator X

With maybe a couple classes in Knight between Cleric and Crusader, so the enemy cant even run

[Essence_of_War]

For feats, I'm a big fan of Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, and Minor Shapeshift.

You probably shouldn't touch any of the devotions until you get your first exorcist level at 12 though.

[Eldariel]

uhm, typos... :)

I didnt see it on the spell sword, will look again

Spellsword's skills:
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Con)
Knowledge (Int)
Jump (Str)
Profession (Wis)
Spellcraft (Int)

That expression means the same thing it does in the PHB Wizard-entry (though there it's spelled out "All knowledges, taken separately"). So yeah, Spellsword gets all Knowledges. Including The Planes. Problem solved.

[Urpriest]

I'm curious, how are you arriving at this rule?

He means Sanctified Spells, and that's how they've always worked. Like Corrupt Spells, they're the "dangerous forbidden technique" that anyone (who prepares spells) can tap into but that saps your stats.

[Godskook]

He means Sanctified Spells, and that's how they've always worked. Like Corrupt Spells, they're the "dangerous forbidden technique" that anyone (who prepares spells) can tap into but that saps your stats.

I assumed that, but I can't find special rules he's using in BoED. I can find the ones that allow Clerics to cast them spontaneously, but that's called out specifically as a cleric benefit.

[AMFV]

I assumed that, but I can't find special rules he's using in BoED. I can find the ones that allow Clerics to cast them spontaneously, but that's called out specifically as a cleric benefit.

It's right after spell lists it states: "This section begins with a list of sanctified spells, which are available to any class that prepares spells rather than casting them spontaneously"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

BoED page 83, Sanctified Magic. The Sanctified spells are often referred to as Exalted spells, just because that's the term everyone's familiar with regarding that book's content. There's a bit of territory for interpretation regarding whether a spontaneous caster with Arcane Preparation could use them. It could be ruled that because a spontaneous caster can both prepare spells and cast them spontaneously, he cannot use sanctified spells, but then again a Druid can prepare spells and also spontaneously cast several, a Cleric can prepare spells but also spontaneously cast several, and if a Wizard takes the Spontaneous Divination ACF would Sanctified spells no longer be available to him?

Most of the books were written with nothing but the core three rulebooks in mind, thus non-core spellcasting classes, and feats that change the way spells are made available, are not taken into consideration when things like this are worded. It's fair that a Sorcerer who invests a feat in Arcane Preparation be allowed access to Sanctified spells, given their limited usefulness and ability-damage cost. On that subject, get a Rod of Bodily Restoration from MIC to fix that sacrifice damage whenever you cast (Greater) Luminous Armor.

[Godskook]

Um, BiFu, you're missing my point, so I'll be explicit:

1.There's no room for interpretation. The RAW explicitly calls out that all prepared casters get them, and gives Sorcerer and Bard as examples of those who can't. Given that the 'rule' isn't "no sorcerers", but rather "must prepare spells", changing the Sorcerer class so that it can prepare spells allows the class to qualify to use the spells.

2.What I'm actually talking about is your claim that it doesn't take a spell known slot. The closest thing to a rule in this regard that I can find is:


Spell casters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells...

Given that, I don't really see how you can justify that it doesn't take a spell known slot. But I know that BoED is horribly organized, so its quite possible that I've missed something in another chapter or later in this chapter or something(that book is notorious for explaining something in one chapter but giving you a reason to care in an entirely different chapter).

[Greenish]

Im going to throw in one of my old faves (if ToB is alowed)

Cleric 4/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator X

With maybe a couple classes in Knight between Cleric and Crusader, so the enemy cant even runWhy two levels of crusader? Crusader 2 gets Cha to Will save, yeah, but given that you've a whole bunch of levels in classes with good Will save, and your key attribute is wisdom, that doesn't seem worth delaying your spellcasting further.

As for Knight, eh, not worth it. Crusader has Thicket of Blades, which is better than Knight's Bulwark of Defense.

[macdaddy]

Ok, I have every thing worked out except my feat progressions :)

We rolled stats (4d6) instead of point buying, and I got lucky and rolled an 18. Also, if our rolled total was less than 84, we got to add +1 to a stat.... my rolled total was 83, so score! I got to bump a 13 to a 14.

Human
Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 13, W: 11, Chr: 18

Feats:
1. Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
3. Practiced Spell Caster (?? Is this necessary with martial arcanist? or is it wasted?)
6. Combat Casting (Pre-Req for Abj Ch)
9. Arcane Strike (?? This is better than Arcane Boost, but is it worth a feat?)
12. ??
15. Divine Might (+6 to dmg for a round 9 times per day? Boo yeah!)
18. ??

Would Extend spell, and persistent spell be worth it? Shield, Haste, Wraithstrike could all be made persistent (albeit at high levels since shield would require 7th level slots).

As you can see, I am missing quite a few slots to fill and could use some help. Thanx!

[Godskook]

1.Combat Reflexes isn't too useful on your build, and you can get it via a spell. I'd drop it.

2.Practiced Caster is more useful when you're progressing through the levels. If you're starting at level 20, you can afford to get something else instead.

3.Persist is godly at high levels, regardless of what +level you're using it at.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1.Combat Reflexes isn't too useful on your build, and you can get it via a spell. I'd drop it.

2.Practiced Caster is more useful when you're progressing through the levels. If you're starting at level 20, you can afford to get something else instead.

3.Persist is godly at high levels, regardless of what +level you're using it at.

He's starting at 1st level, when Combat Reflexes will be king of the battlefield.

I'll agree that there's not much reason not to get Extend and Persistent Spell at 12 and 18, especially considering that right at 18th level you'll get 8th level spells and can have Persistent Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Shield, Swift Expeditious Retreat, etc. Be sure to get a Runestaff (MIC) with any spells you'll only be casting once or twice a day (Greater/Superior Resistance, Mind Blank).


On the topic of Sanctified spells, we have the following: "Sanctified spells are specific to no character class. They are neither inherently arcane nor divine spells. A divine caster casting a sanctified spell casts it as a divine spell, while an arcane caster casts it as an arcane spell." Since they're not specific to the Wizard spell list, and not considered arcane unless currently being cast, a Wizard would not be able to put any of them into his spellbook. "Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells," so a Wizard could prepare a spell from his spellbook or he can prepare Read Magic and any spell he's mastered via Spell Mastery from memory, and thus does not need to put them into his spellbook. Thus, there is room for allowing the Wizard to prepare Sanctified spells from memory, but there is no room for allowing him to add them to his spellbook. Similarly, there is no room for allowing a Sorcerer to select a Sanctified spell as a spell known, which would indicate that he does not need to do so in order to cast one, only that he must prepare it first rather than casting it spontaneously. I'd say that Sanctified spells are granted by the higher powers similar to divine spells, whether used by an arcane or divine caster.