Good melee build?

[Icestorm245]

I am trying to make a good melee build to really shock my friends and DM, who all think that a straight fighter is just as good as something out of ToB if done right. I don't even want to use ToB, as it kind of confuses me. So far I was thinking of starting with Human Duskblade, taking Arcane Disciple (Travel) and Travel Devotion, dipping in Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce, taking two levels of fighter (or something better that gives me two bonus feats, basically to replace the feats lost on Travel Devotion), and back into Duskblade so I utilize a True Strike + Power Attack combo. Any way to make this better?

[Greenish]

I am trying to make a good melee build to really shock my friends and DM, who all think that a straight fighter is just as good as something out of ToB if done right.Let them think that?

Anyhow, what level do you start?

[Hirax]

What level are you starting at? Level adjustment allowed? Books and other sources allowed?

[gbprime]

If you're using straight Duskblade and adding a domain, you want something with a cool spell you can channel. Poison, for example.

You could also do a straight fighter. Boomerang Daze plus Aptitude weapon is a great way to cause enemies to lose actions. But Aptitude Weapon is from Tome of Battle, so perhaps you want to avoid that. The other option then is Three Mountains style from Complete Warrior. In the former case, to optimize it you want bonuses to damage, in the latter you want bonus attacks.

[Greenish]

You could also do a straight fighter.That would quite defeat the point of the exercise, I should think.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

(Whisper) Gnome or Water Halfling, single-classed Druid. Get Companion Spellbond, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, and whatever else (Multiattack, Combat Reflexes, and Power Attack are all good). Get a Fleshraker animal companion (MM3) and still count your full level toward its benefits thanks to Natural Bond. Buff yourself with (Lesser Rod of Extended) Greater Magic Weapon, (Extended) Longstrider, etc. and share them with your companion. Walk around all day Wild Shaped into a melee form (Dire Lion, Dire Tiger, etc.). At the start of combat cast Bite of the Were-X shared and send your companion in to fight, and you can charge in the next round. Use a (Wilding Clasped) Circlet of Rapid Casting to cast (Extended) Produce Flame just before you charge to add fire damage to all of your melee attacks, as per holding the charge on a touch spell. Wear Wild armor and a (Wilding Clasped) Monk's Belt, and you'll get your Wisdom bonus to AC when Wild Shaped since the armor melds into your form and you're not longer considered wearing it.

[Acanous]

Could go Transmuter wizard, as well. Druid's probably the best choice, though.

[gbprime]

That would quite defeat the point of the exercise, I should think.

Well that's just it. It _is_ possible to wrangle some power out of a straight fighter. But I still think either of those methods would shock your friends.

[magwaaf]

i played an epic fighter once that even with all the feats didnt compare to my level 12 warblade's abilities.

ToB is better than a fighter hands down anytime youa re going for a melee build

[etrpgb]

And if races with LA are allowed I think an excellent choice is the Goliath Half Minotaur:
+16 STR, -2 DEX, +8 CON, -2 Int Large (Powerful Build), 40' Walk, +2 Natural Armor, 2 LA
plus some other bonuses you can read in the Dragon 313 pag 94.
Take a huge valorous lance and battle jump and start charging away!

Otherwise for only one adjustment Wood Elf Half Minotaur is fairly solid.

Here a possible begin, you need to put Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and possibly Combat Brute as soon as possible and maximize jump and tumble to activate the Battle Jump.

Cloistered Cleric Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Time Domain (Bonus: Improved Initiative)
Lion Barbarian (Bonus: Pounce)
Chaos Monk (Overwhelming Attack) (Bonus: Power Attack)
Chaos Monk (Bonus: Improved Bull Rush)
Fighter (Bonus: Battle Jump)
Fighter (Bonus: Improved Sunder*)
*If you go for the combat brute way.

Oh, you can consider the Blade Dancer class (7 or 10 levels). While it has some hateful requirements in feats it gives a great bonus to jump and speed. Just what you need for your lethal charges.
Ask your DM about if you can change the first level power (Leap of the Clouds) that is obsolete in 3.5 in the newer Leap of the Heavens (Player's Handbook II pag. 80.) It is an obvious fix, but unfortunately the official errata changes stupid things (like making the Vanara an useless race from nice), but not this one.

[Essence_of_War]

Yikes, I'm only seeing a +8 str from the goliath+half-minotaur, where are you getting +16 from?

[etrpgb]

Size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)! The Half Minotaur description states explicitly you have to keep count of it.

[Iferus]

You could dip a level of cleric to get more uses of travel devotion and to get it for free in the first place.

[etrpgb]

Cloistered Cleric is there for exactly that reason.
The character is a Cloistered Cleric with Time and Travel domain. She also has Knowledge domain just because she is Cloistered. Following the rules of complete champion (pag. 53) she gives up to the power of Travel and Knowledge domain in exchange of the two devotion feats. Time domain gives Improved Initiative and True Strike as spell, that you should cast spontaneously using the rule of PHII (pag. 37). You can probably take a second level for BAB and Saving Throws.

But it was not a complete build, just a possible begin. I do not even know if the OP likes it!

[Airanath]

Am I the only one who finds it odd to make anything other than a straight fighter to prove a point that a straight fighter can be better than ToB in what it does?
Just my two copper, a gish(what you are making) is not a straight fighter, and while it can be better than ToB stuff (spells are that borked anyway), a fighter(MOAR FEATS), will still fail compared to ToB, as they lack versatility.

Anyway, as for your proposed gish build, Poison Spell, making your touch spells channel poison for each strike they are entitled to, and as you are taking duskblade, that is gonna be a lot. Unless you really need feats(and fighter bonus feats at that), don't dip fighter, you'll lose on duskblade's spell casting, which, if you take poison spell, is gonna progress even more nastly, since you are gonna hog all those touch spells, that you can use on your melee attacks, while power attacking and true stricking.

[Greenish]

Am I the only one who finds it odd to make anything other than a straight fighter to prove a point that a straight fighter can be better than ToB in what it does?That's exactly the opposite of what OP is trying to prove. :smallamused:

[etrpgb]

I am trying to make a good melee build to really shock my friends and DM, who all think that a straight fighter is just as good as something out of ToB if done right. I don't even want to use ToB...

It sounds to me that he does not want to use ToB and he wants to make a good melee build that beats his friends' straight fighters... An ubercharger is a simple and effective solution.

[Person_Man]

Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)

That should walk you through all the basic Feat combos you need.

Various strong non-Fighter non-ToB melee builds:

Druid 20: Wildshape into something powerful (look at the dinosaurs in the SRD, or animals in general in the various Monster Manuals and the backs of most supplements). Make sure you have a semi-useful Animal Companion - preferably something with the ability to Trip or Grapple well. Take Natural Spell. Buff yourself and your Companion (using your Share Spells if possible) if you feel like it, or just keep some healing and blasty spells memorized for when you need them. On the first (and if needed, second) round of combat use Summon Nature's Ally spontaneously. Have the Summoned animals distract your weaker enemies while you and your Companion tag team the strongest enemy.

Cleric 5/Any Prestige Class that fully progresses casting 10/Another Prestige Class that fully progresses casting 5: Cast buff spells with a long duration, bumping up your To-Hit, damage, AC, and special effects as needed. First round of battle cast a battlefield control spell (something that reduces your enemy's ability to move and/or attack you - Summons are one example, but Clerics have many others). Then pound on the strongest enemy. If he hurts you, laugh at him and spontaneously heal yourself.

Psychic Warrior 20: Google "Psychic Warrior" and "King of Smack" together. Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, and Expansion to give you massive damage and healing. Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge for mobility. Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes as your basic feat combo.

Knight 20: Weaker then the above options, but still capable of doing things way better then the Fighter. Go read the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429), it gives lots of sample builds.

I could go on and on - Binder, Totemist, Incarnate, various Gish options, etc. Can you narrow what you want down to one particular class or combo that you want to pull off well?

[Icestorm245]

These are some certainly good options, and probably must more justifiable in the roleplaying aspect than a duskblade/barbarian. As for starting level, this character is generally just a concept for now; probably have some arena sessions with him if I get him created. We usually, however, start around 6th level. I want a high damage dealing character that utilizes charge a lot. An ubercharger, as etrpgb called it. Basically that's why I was thinking arcane disciple with travel devotion to get the swift action to move my speed away, then charge with pounce as to get my full attack. That's really the only reason for duskblade as well.

While the suggesstions that were posted were ideas I have never even considered before, I'd like to build upon what I have already thought of. And yes, I am trying to prove that a straight fighter is not as capable as other melee type characters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Druid 6 with a Fleshraker companion who Wild Shapes into a Fleshraker is two uberchargers.

[Greenish]

Totemist (as Person_Man mentioned above) and Totem Ragers are always fun, but if you really want to drive the point home, how about some Incarnate?

Poor BAB, d6 hitdice, excellent stuff for showing off how useful actual class features can be. Keeps going for as long as you want, too, so fighter can't use that excuse.

[etrpgb]

Level 6 is tight, because shock trooper (base of uberchargers) has +6 as BAB requisite and instead Leap Attack has 8 ranks of Jump. You need something like this:

Lion Barbarian Power Attack
Lion Barbarian
Lion Barbarian Improved Bull Rush
Lion Barbarian
Fighter Leap Attack(F)
Fighter Shock Trooper(F), Battle Jump

Of course you can replace 3 Lion Barbarian levels with anything with full bab.

But without monk levels you will be virtually forced to wear armors that gives armor check penalty to Jump that you need to activate Leap Attack and Battle Jump.
Without Cloistered Cleric no free Improved Initiative, Devotions and True Strike.

Battle Jump is probably difficult to activate at such low level, but you still need a Jump result of 10 for activating Leap Attack with a running start.

[Icestorm245]

What book is Incarnate in? Also, I'm unfamiliar with Shock Trooper. What does it do?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Battle Jump is probably difficult to activate at such low level, but you still need a Jump result of 10 for activating Leap Attack with a running start.
Battle Jump requires you to be 5 feet above the opponent. And I think you have to jump from a standing position.

[Greenish]

What book is Incarnate in? Also, I'm unfamiliar with Shock Trooper. What does it do?Magic of Incarnum, like the totemist.

Shock Trooper is a tactical feat that gives you a few tricks. The most used one is pushing the attack penalty from using PA into AC penalty instead, when charging.

[Metahuman1]

Factotem 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/Bard 7-8/Sublime Cord 2/Virtuoso 8-9.

Take able learner, Fearie Mysteries Initiate, Melodic Casting, and exotic weapon's proficiency Gnome Quick Razor at lvl 1.

Get knowledge and Travel devotion and something else useful at lvl two.

At level 3 get Snow Flake Wardance.

At level 6 get Dragonfire Inspiration.

At level 9 Get words of creation, and a way to have immunity to nonlethal damage. After that, go what ever way you wanna go.

For skills, you want Balance, Iaijutsu Focus, Tumble, Preform Singing, UMD, Knowledge Skills that tell you about monsters and opponents, and then Trapfinding related skills, in that order.

For this build you might want to invest in a couple of those tricks that let you reroll on a bad roll. Then Max the hell out of reflex saves and Balance checks, and out of IaiJutsu Checks. After that, use Wands of grease and bags of Marbles to keep leaving anything that isn't invested in balance flat footed all the way though combat and tumble to get on top of them. Then spam Dragonfire Inspiration+Knowledge Devotion+Iaijutsu Focused attacks on them. You'll be a combat beast who can deal staggering amounts of damage on every attack and will have a too hit that's better then just about any fighter, and you can move while doing it, do useful stuff with skills Becase of UMD, Preform, Knowledge, and if you worked it in there Trapfinding, and too top it off, you've got spell casting and several nice PRC features!

[Icestorm245]

Magic of Incarnum, like the totemist.

Shock Trooper is a tactical feat that gives you a few tricks. The most used one is pushing the attack penalty from using PA into AC penalty instead, when charging.

... That's got to be the most useful thing ever. I hate to say it but this just make my DM throw a balor at me at 6th level. I'll definately look into Magic of Incarnum. Thanks for the help guys!

[etrpgb]

Well, if a the master brings you a Balor at level 6 then there is something wrong with him. I mean, a Balor will probably wipe the whole party!

The real reaction is trying to put more smaller monster (a charger can kill one at time), bad terrain there and there (so you need to find something smart to charge)...
Remember, caster are broken. Uberchargers are not.



Battle Jump requires you to be 5 feet above the opponent. And I think you have to jump from a standing position.
The ``standing position'' part is not stated in the feat the text simply states: ``You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent.''

Instead the Normal section says:
``Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain double damage [...] for the ensuing attack.'' that is expected as you are not in straight line and normal charge does not give the x2 anyway.

A particularly evil interpretation might says you have to keep the straight line even with battle jump but it has some unwanted effect (IMO) making the feat fairly useless. I guess it depends on the DM; as usual my fist advice is ``if it is unclear, do what is more fun'' and I think it is more fun you can run, jump, charge.

Anyhow, you need a 40 Jump success to activate Battle Jump with a running start against a medium creature, 80 without. You can also activate Leap Attack if you jump at least 10 feet horizontally.

The definitive information about this idea of uberchargers is ``A little red raiding hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon)'' guide. I personally think the author exaggerate a little, but it worth the read (x6 moltiplier? Come on!). The premade build you might use to prove your points is the ``Build #8: The Trancer''. No fighter levels, magic based and can probably kill any full fighter.

[Icestorm245]

Well, if a the master brings you a Balor at level 6 then there is something wrong with him. I mean, a Balor will probably wipe the whole party!

The real reaction is trying to put more smaller monster (a charger can kill one at time), bad terrain there and there (so you need to find something smart to charge)...
Remember, caster are broken. Uberchargers are not.

This is the problem. They think that casters are weak in comparison to fighters and the like... last time I made an arcane caster I shocked them unintentionally. Focused Specialist conjuration/Master Specialist. Two summons a turn? Ouch. I want to prove to them that fighters are actually very weak in comparison to other things, as they won't believe the tier system.

[etrpgb]

Spellcasters are broken because... well, the spells are broken. The fact itself that anyone will state: ``never lose caster levels'' is the proof.
If your DM diligently passed the list of spells and removed the broken spells and made some fixes it might be true, probably the game is even more fun.

Examples:
Broken Spells: Love's Pain, Mindrape, Solid Fog and the like, Contact Other Plane (and most divinations actually), Summoning...
Broken Feats: Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell...
Broken Classes: Incantrix, Artificer...
Simply fixable: Archivist (only CLERICAL spells), Summoning call a premade fairly standard creature (e.g. Summon Monster N can call an all-18 Human with Nx2 levels in the Warrior class), Casting is now longer...

As you can see it is a fairly long job, and I think your master did not do that.

Then, what about going Archivist? Seek the manuals for Clerical spells with lower than normal level (e.g. Adept lev. 5 Heal or Ranger lev. 2 Swift Haste) and make a spell... prayerbook that make anyone cry.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Persistent Spell is fine without metamagic reducers.

[etrpgb]

Maybe, but there are too many way to reduce price of metamagic. Just ban the broken feat instead of all the ways to reduce ``fair'' metamagic.

[Metahuman1]

There's an idea, Go Druid, take Natural Bond and Natural Spell, maybe Augment summoning and Improved Initiative. Proceed to one man most encounters.

Or introduce them to DMM Persist + DMM Quicken and a couple of devotion feats. Destroy everything.

[Thurbane]

If it's allowed, the simple variant Rogue from UA is better for a 2 level dip for feats than Fighter is. You lose 1 BAB, but you get 16 skill points instead of 4. You also get Trapfinding, Evasion and (FWIW) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow).

[Icestorm245]

If it's allowed, the simple variant Rogue from UA is better for a 2 level dip for feats than Fighter is. You lose 1 BAB, but you get 16 skill points instead of 4. You also get Trapfinding, Evasion and (FWIW) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow).

Well more skill points might help me max out jump and tumble so I can charge at stuff better. The group I play in rarely uses traps, and I mean, I was the only one to use traps as a DM ever. Evasion might be good as well... actually it probably is a better dip. But the problem is the roleplaying aspect... I'm already going to have a hard enough time explaining why my guy is a duskblade (int based, tactical character) AND a barbarian (smash stuff!). Adding rogue (sneak around/talk to people/steal stuff) wouldn't mix well with the flavour, you know?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm already going to have a hard enough time explaining why my guy is a duskblade (int based, tactical character) AND a barbarian (smash stuff!).

Because everyone hates stereotypes.

[Icestorm245]

Because everyone hates stereotypes.

I'm not sure of the message you are trying to convey here. Are you saying that it shouldn't matter, or I can actually soundly justify having a raging, tactical lightfoot silvertounge?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not sure of the message you are trying to convey here. Are you saying that it shouldn't matter, or I can actually soundly justify having a raging, tactical lightfoot silvertounge?

Rage = adrenaline rush. No illiteracy because of multiclassing.

[etrpgb]

There's an idea, Go Druid, take Natural Bond and Natural Spell, maybe Augment summoning and Improved Initiative. Proceed to one man most encounters.

Druids start to shine (read: outclass almost everyone) at level 8 when they can become large... at level 6 they are still somewhat normal. And yet at level 6 you MUST take Natural Spell, no exception. I am not sure of the advantage of Natural Bound for a full druid since your animal level cannot overtake the character level...

The advantage of going druid is that you are full core, no strange rules, no new books yet you are stronger than any fighter. Just find strong transformations (google it) and thanks to Natural Spell you still cast devastating spells normally.

[Gwendol]

If you go shock trooper consider taking at least two levels of dungeon chrasher fighter. Combined with feats like large and in charge or knockback or knockdown, you'll rule.

[Greenish]

Druids start to shine (read: outclass almost everyone) at level 8 when they can become large...Or at level 1 when they're essentially two characters in one. :smallamused:


I am not sure of the advantage of Natural Bound for a full druid since your animal level cannot overtake the character level...You take a more powerful animal companion, as detailed in the druid entry. This gives you a penalty on your effective druid level. Then you use Natural Bond to fix that penalty.