[3.5..ish] Knight

[Showzilla]

I have yet to play with a group who likes how the knight was done..so lets see how I can do.
if something is confusing, see this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11811877#post11811877)

Knight
Hit dice: D12
Alignment: any non-nuetral
Skills at level one: (int +4) x 4
Skills after: 4+int mod
Important stats: strength, constitution, charisma
{table=head]Level|Base attack bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Specials|
1|+1| +2|+0|+0|Valor/1 day, powerful strike, improved unarmed strike|
2|+2| +3|+0|+0|Defend ally, parry, +2 armor|
3|+3|+3|+1|+1| improved grapple,Martyr|
4|+4|+4|+1|+1| Valor /2,+2 armor,divine grace|
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Greater improved grapple|
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|augmented critical(choice),+2 armor|
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+ 2|augmented critical (choice),DR 2/-|
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+ 2| valor/3 day, +2 armor|
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3| |
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|DR 4/-,+2 armor|
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Great valor|
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|valor/4 day, +2 armor|
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4| DR 6/-|
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|+2 armor|
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Greater parry|
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|+2 armor, DR 8/-, valor/5 day|
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|tireless valor|
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|+2 armor,armor mastery|
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|DR 10/-|
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|+2 armor, Mighty valor, Valor/6 day|
[/table]

Valor: a knight draws on the power of his spirit and devotion to good, he adds his cha modifier to his strength and constitution. It functions similarly to barbarian rage. He gains a +2 to will and a -2 to ac
Powerful strike: a knight can destroy even the hardiest of evil doers with his strong sword arm. A knight add ½ his str mod to damage with one handed weapons. He also doubles the str mod use for damage when wielding a two handed weapon( 3 times his strength mod). As the knight continues to build his skill, his body hardens and his strikes become more sure, every four levels grants the knight a +2(+3 2handed)or on a full attack action +4(+6 with two-handed weapons) to damage rolls, these bonuses stack. At level 10, a knight gains an additional ½ bonus to damage on each hand. He now use four times the strength mod he would use on two handed weapons. At level 10, all his damage bonuses upgrade from +2(+3) to +3(+4) and when he uses a full round attack option he gets +6(+9). at level 20, the damage bonuses increase one last time to +4(+5) on single attacks and +8(+12) when he goes in for a full attack option.
Defend ally: a knight may use his block strike action to defend any allies within reach.
Great armor: a knight is a warrior trained to fight in even the heaviest of armors and defensive items, gaining as much as possible from their use. A Knight gains a +2 to his soak while wearing any form of protective item(s). His armor check penalty also takes a -2, his speed penalty lessens by 20ft and his max dexterity bonus to his armor class gains a +2 . The second enhancement grants an additional enhancement: knight can also sleep in any armor with no penalties the next day and his speed and he carries his armor so well that it only counts for ¾ it’s normal weight when determining how much it counts against the knight’s loads. A knight also gains an AC bonus equal to 1/5 his soak bonus from this class feature. He also gains fortification +15% every 10 levels and gains a +1 bonus to his efficiency ranges at lvl 5 and every 5 lvls after that
Parry: a knight is a great martial combatant and can make opponents suffer for their lack of skill. When a knight uses a block strike, should his attack roll exceed his opponent, he may trip or disarm his foe as a free action. The opponent can’t react fast enough to try to trip or disarm the knight.
Great parry: a knight may also attack an opponent they trip or disarm as a result of a block strike.
Improved grapple: in addition to great martial power with his strikes, a knight is a superb wrestler. He gains improved grapple as a bonus feat. If he already has it, he gains greater improved grapple
DR: a knight can shrug off the blows of combat
Great valor: the charisma mod is now 50% more potent . +3 to will, -2 to ac
Greater improved grapple: a knight now is a master of the wrestling ring. he can take 10, can maintain as a swift action, and is considered one size category larger for grappling limits. he gains a bonus to grapple checks equal to 1/4 his knight levels.
Divine Grace: the knight adds his charisma mod to his saves.
Martyr:lvl 3, a knight throws himself into the fray defending his partners, by becoming the main target using a free action to activate it while he has valor turned on, he grants his partners a bonus to ac equal to his charisma mod and he gains a bonus to his attack rolls, and damage rolls equal and a bonus his AC equal to his charisma mod. Every round also increases the number of rounds he could be in valor by one round. once the encounter ends, the knight is exhausted. The knight may also transfer any damage dealt to an ally to himself and may make a fortitude save for an ally. Foes must make a will save DC(10+1/2 the knight levels+the knights charisma modifier) or be forced to attack the knight.
Tireless valor: the knight is no longer tired by his valor use. martyr now only fatigues the knight.
Mighty valor: double the charisma used in valor. +4 to will. +2 ac.
Armor Mastery: a knight adds 5 to his DR when wearing armor.

he's based on the real life knightly combat records, they were pretty much just mainland answers to barbarians and the sort, so they're training involved learning to kill with everything possible (hands included), they were also tough as all hell, so yeah. I kept the concept of most of his powers being based on charisma, keeping in spirit with the the heroic and charismatic juggernaut. I've ran this class, it plays very much like a damn tankasaurus rex.
now with some standard izing for 3.5(next is pathfinder)
{table=head]Level|Base attack bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Specials|
1|+1| +2|+0|+0|Valor/1 day, powerful strike, improved unarmed strike|
2|+2| +3|+0|+0|Defend ally, parry|
3|+3|+3|+1|+1| Martyr, improved grapple|
4|+4|+4|+1|+1| Valor /2,divine grace|
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Greater improved grapple|
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|augmented critical(choice)|
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+ 2|augmented critical (choice),DR 2/-|
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+ 2| valor/3 day|
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3| |
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|DR 4/-|
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Great valor|
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|valor/4 day|
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4| DR 6/-|
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4||
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Greater parry|
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|DR 8/-, valor/5 day|
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|tireless valor|
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6||
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Martyr,DR 10/-|
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Mighty valor, Valor/6 day|
[/table]

Valor: a knight draws on the power of his spirit and devotion to good, he adds his cha modifier to his strength and constitution. It functions similarly to barbarian rage. He gains a +2 to will and a -2 to ac
Powerful strike: a knight can destroy even the hardiest of evil doers with his strong sword arm. A knight add ½ his str mod to damage with one handed weapons. He also doubles the str mod use for damage when wielding a two handed weapon( 3 times his strength mod). As the knight continues to build his skill, his body hardens and his strikes become more sure, every four levels grants the knight a +2(+3 2handed)or on a full attack action +4(+6 with two-handed weapons) to damage rolls, these bonuses stack. At level 10, a knight gains an additional ½ bonus to damage on each hand. He now use four times the strength mod he would use on two handed weapons. At level 10, all his damage bonuses upgrade from +2(+3) to +3(+4) and when he uses a full round attack option he gets +6(+9). at level 20, the damage bonuses increase one last time to +4(+5) on single attacks and +8(+12) when he goes in for a full attack option.
Defend ally: a knight may use his block strike action to defend any allies within reach.
Armor training: a knight is a warrior trained to fight in even the heaviest of armors and defensive items, gaining as much as possible from their use.every four levels grants a +2 to AC. His armor check penalty also takes a -2 every four levels, his speed penalty lessens by 20ft and his max dexterity bonus to his armor class gains a +2 every four levels . At lvl four, knight can also sleep in any armor with no penalties the next day and his speed and he carries his armor so well that it only counts for ¾ it’s normal weight when determining how much it counts against the knight’s loads.
Parry:a knight can sacrifice an attack and gains two uses per round. he can make an attack roll against anyone who attacks him, if his roll exceeds his foes, the attack is negated. The knight can add a shield's AC bonus to this roll.
Great parry: a knight may now disarm or trip anyone they successfully parry.
Improved grapple: in addition to great martial power with his strikes, a knight is a superb wrestler. He gains improved grapple as a bonus feat. If he already has it, he gains greater improved grapple
DR: a knight can shrug off the blows of combat
Great valor: the charisma mod is now 50% more potent . +3 to will, -2 to ac
Greater improved grapple: a knight now is a master of the wrestling ring. he can take 10, can maintain as a swift action, and is considered one size category larger for grappling limits. he gains a bonus to grapple checks equal to 1/4 his knight levels.
Martyr:lvl 3, a knight throws himself into the fray defending his partners, by becoming the main target using a free action to activate it while he has valor turned on, he grants his partners a bonus to ac equal to his charisma mod and he gains a bonus to his attack rolls, and damage rolls equal and a bonus his AC equal to his charisma mod. Every round also increases the number of rounds he could be in valor by one round. once the encounter ends, the knight is exhausted. The knight may also transfer any damage dealt to an ally to himself and may make a fortitude save for an ally. Foes must make a will save DC(10+1/2 the knight levels+the knights charisma modifier) or be forced to attack the knight.
Tireless valor: the knight is no longer tired by his valor use. martyr now only fatigues the knight.
Mighty valor: double the charisma used in valor. +4 to will. +2 ac.
Divine Grace: a knight adds his charisma to his saves
Armor Mastery: a knight adds 5 to his DR when wearing armor.

[drakir_nosslin]

I'm new, I don't know how to set up tables here yet

Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677), now you do. :smallwink:

[Iferus]

You should improve the formatting of your text to increase readability. Bolden the names of abilities and perhaps put a line of whitespace between the ability descriptions.

[Showzilla]

I can haz feed backz? oh, and I have some broken ass prestige classes that you'd have to have levels in knight to take:
-Teutonic
-Templar
-Hospitaller
-Ursa Major
-Hero

[NeoSeraphi]

You need to list class skills for this class, if we are to judge it based on its skill points.

Valor is an interesting take on Rage/Smite Evil. It's a bit weak unless you're built for MADness (You would need at least 18 Cha to get the same effect that Rage does, and that's cutting into your base Str and Con already) but it scales with your WBL and access to magic, rather than every 10 levels, so it has more potential than Rage.

That said, Mighty Valor can get a bit crazy. Say your character has 30 Charisma. Not difficult to accomplish, with a +6 Item and a +5 tome, as well as a few points spent from leveling and a racial bonus. You activate Valor, and suddenly, your Str and Con increase by 20 each. Combine that with Powerful Strike, and even if you still have a 12 Str base at level 20 (really, really unlikely), you're dealing an extra 56 damage per attack with a full-round, two-handed weapon. So it's abusable, but I don't really have a suggestion for how to fix it, so I'll just let you read my statement and decide whether you think it's a problem or not.

Pro Tip: If you want people to comment on this class, you should link to your Armor thread so everyone understands what a "block strike action" is (you don't explain it at all here)

No problems with Resistance Power. It's just like Divine Grace, only less awesome because it encourages MAD. I would point out, however, that you don't have a minimum for those, so if, say, your Knight has only 8 Int, he actually would take a -1 penalty to his Reflex saves.

Greater Improved Grapple needs some clarification. I do not understand how a knight could possibly grapple and attack with a two-handed weapon. Are you saying that he is able to hold his two-handed weapon in one hand while he holds the guy down with the other? (He can't pin or grapple without using a hand. That's just not how grappling works)

Martyr needs a range limit on how far away his allies can be affected, and also a duration, and an action required to activate it.

So yeah, at the moment, I would say tone down either Valor or Powerful Strike. Keeping both of them as they are now at the same time would make this an absurd Tier 2 class with a damage output that is far too high and a Fortitude saving throw that is insurmountable. (You're adding Con, Str, and double Cha to your Fort saves at level 20 when you're Valoring, along with having a base of +12)

[Showzilla]

You need to list class skills for this class, if we are to judge it based on its skill points.

Valor is an interesting take on Rage/Smite Evil. It's a bit weak unless you're built for MADness (You would need at least 18 Cha to get the same effect that Rage does, and that's cutting into your base Str and Con already) but it scales with your WBL and access to magic, rather than every 10 levels, so it has more potential than Rage.

That said, Mighty Valor can get a bit crazy. Say your character has 30 Charisma. Not difficult to accomplish, with a +6 Item and a +5 tome, as well as a few points spent from leveling and a racial bonus. You activate Valor, and suddenly, your Str and Con increase by 20 each. Combine that with Powerful Strike, and even if you still have a 12 Str base at level 20 (really, really unlikely), you're dealing an extra 56 damage per attack with a full-round, two-handed weapon. So it's abusable, but I don't really have a suggestion for how to fix it, so I'll just let you read my statement and decide whether you think it's a problem or not.

Pro Tip: If you want people to comment on this class, you should link to your Armor thread so everyone understands what a "block strike action" is (you don't explain it at all here)

No problems with Resistance Power. It's just like Divine Grace, only less awesome because it encourages MAD. I would point out, however, that you don't have a minimum for those, so if, say, your Knight has only 8 Int, he actually would take a -1 penalty to his Reflex saves.

Greater Improved Grapple needs some clarification. I do not understand how a knight could possibly grapple and attack with a two-handed weapon. Are you saying that he is able to hold his two-handed weapon in one hand while he holds the guy down with the other? (He can't pin or grapple without using a hand. That's just not how grappling works)

Martyr needs a range limit on how far away his allies can be affected, and also a duration, and an action required to activate it.

So yeah, at the moment, I would say tone down either Valor or Powerful Strike. Keeping both of them as they are now at the same time would make this an absurd Tier 2 class with a damage output that is far too high and a Fortitude saving throw that is insurmountable. (You're adding Con, Str, and double Cha to your Fort saves at level 20 when you're Valoring, along with having a base of +12)
thanks pall.
Valor was built with everything you said in mind. if you neglect charisma, it sucks, take care of it, it rocks. plus, if a character is abusing it too much, Charisma damage, even temporary, handles a knight. Valor vs Rage came down to potential gain vs certain gain.
thanks for pointing out that wording in resistances, I might implement a limit or keep it as is to balance out powerful strike.
to explain attacking with a two-handed weapon in a grapple, its my attempt to display hand and a half style. ex: ogre and knight go at it, knight gets the upper hand. He wraps both arms around the ogre, aims his sword down and grabs the blade and thrusts it into the ogres back.
Martyr: maybe charisma+lvl=range.ends with encounter and results in exhaustion(or fatigued if you finish out the knights class).free action to activate but you can only activate it when Valor is active and he cant activate it on the same round he activates valor.
as for the insurmountable fort save.....eh, had a feeling that would come up, but I might posit that you have to wast an ability that has a limited number of charges of resistance powers and valor to accomplish it.
maybe I should put a special weakness in valor, if you take cha damage that drops your mod into the negative, you take penalties to strength and constitution as you begin to doubt yourself. Also the drop in charisma reduces the number of resistance uses per day.
so, here's hoping the potential weaknesses even the potential strengths out.

[...You Lost Me]

It's "Martyr", not "Marty". You may want to change that.

[Showzilla]

It's "Martyr", not "Marty". You may want to change that.
sorry, guess it didn't copy over too well...so what do ya think?

[Showzilla]

I'm one with the warrior inside, my dominance can't be denied
some one say something, I need feed back, criticism, trollssssssss to slaughter(I remember me flaming vorpal sword)

[jiriku]

There's a certain implied contract in D&D that you're breaking, which is that The Party Shall Remain Balanced. There's some text on the subject on p.13 of the DMG.

Let me give you an example:
Say you have a 20th level knight with Charisma 34, Strength 20, and Constitution 20, and that your knight is equipped with a ring of resistance +5. This is not too hard to have at level 20. Your Fortitude save with valor is +51. A warblade with the same stats will have a Fortitude save of +22. That's 29 points lower. If the DM introduces a monster with a special attack that requires a Fort save, and the save DC is such that the warblade passes 50% of the time, the knight will pass 95% of the time, only failing on a 1. If the DM instead chooses a monster whose Fort save DC is such that the knight passes 50% of the time, the warblade passes only 5% of the time, on a natural 20.

This is a problem, because the DM cannot produce a Fort save DC that simultaneously challenges both characters (even though they both have the same stats and the same Fort save progression). If the DC is fair for one character, the other will either auto-pass or auto-fail. The party's Fortitude saves are unbalanced.

I think you're tending to fall into a mental trap that catches a lot of homebrewers - thinking that you need "bigger numbers". Some classes do need slightly bigger numbers - but not this much bigger (and rarely more than +5 on a d20 roll). What most weak classes need is not bigger numbers, but more and better options. For example, Defend Ally, Parry, and Greater Improved Grapple are good features, because they give the knight more versatility and let him try new tactics in combat. You need more features like these. Martyr and Mighty Valor are bad features, because they just jack up the math that makes D&D work, suddenly trivializing what was an otherwise level-appropriate encounter. You want to cut these out and replace them with features that allow a knight to do something different, not just do the same thing really really uber.

[Showzilla]

There's a certain implied contract in D&D that you're breaking, which is that The Party Shall Remain Balanced. There's some text on the subject on p.13 of the DMG.

Let me give you an example:
Say you have a 20th level knight with Charisma 34, Strength 20, and Constitution 20, and that your knight is equipped with a ring of resistance +5. This is not too hard to have at level 20. Your Fortitude save with valor is +51. A warblade with the same stats will have a Fortitude save of +22. That's 29 points lower. If the DM introduces a monster with a special attack that requires a Fort save, and the save DC is such that the warblade passes 50% of the time, the knight will pass 95% of the time, only failing on a 1. If the DM instead chooses a monster whose Fort save DC is such that the knight passes 50% of the time, the warblade passes only 5% of the time, on a natural 20.

This is a problem, because the DM cannot produce a Fort save DC that simultaneously challenges both characters (even though they both have the same stats and the same Fort save progression). If the DC is fair for one character, the other will either auto-pass or auto-fail. The party's Fortitude saves are unbalanced.

I think you're tending to fall into a mental trap that catches a lot of homebrewers - thinking that you need "bigger numbers". Some classes do need slightly bigger numbers - but not this much bigger (and rarely more than +5 on a d20 roll). What most weak classes need is not bigger numbers, but more and better options. For example, Defend Ally, Parry, and Greater Improved Grapple are good features, because they give the knight more versatility and let him try new tactics in combat. You need more features like these. Martyr and Mighty Valor are bad features, because they just jack up the math that makes D&D work, suddenly trivializing what was an otherwise level-appropriate encounter. You want to cut these out and replace them with features that allow a knight to do something different, not just do the same thing really really uber.
thanks, though I've got more than a few ways to neutralize mr. Knight.
Valor and Martyr can be nerfed by anything that can deal charisma damage (things normally dealt by incorporeal undead, something a knight can't really do too well against)
a knight with Charisma 30 is nigh unstoppable, bring him down to charisma 20, he's still tough as hell but he is now manageable, bring him down to 12, he's nigh worthless. He works likes juggernaut is supposed to, hit him with attacks, abilities and even level 9 spells meant to deal balls out damage, he's going to laugh at you and then hit you with seven times the force you hit him with...hit him with something meant to do mental damage, he might be in alot of trouble.
the warblade has strengths and weaknesses, which means he has things that he can deal with things the knight can't (normally magical and physicals enemies both very well, all those that fight directly and indirectly).
The knight has strengths and weaknesses, he has things he can do that the warblade can't(he handily crush all opponents who fight directly, spell casters and claw swingers alike, but those that fight indirectly can get the upper hand over him)

[jiriku]

thanks, though I've got more than a few ways to neutralize mr. Knight.Valor and Martyr can be nerfed by anything that can deal charisma damage (things normally dealt by incorporeal undead, something a knight can't really do too well against)

This is an example of Stormwind Fallacy, thinking "this is balanced because I can imagine a certain situation in which if the DM does X, the party is balanced." There's only one monster in the MM that can damage Charisma with an incorporeal touch attack: the ghost, IF it selects the Draining Touch ability, and even then, only 1d4 Cha per touch. Completely setting aside the fact that a knight with a ghost touch weapon could one-shot any ghost, Many DMs will not think to themselves "Oh, Pat rolled a knight. I'd better put ghosts in all my encounters." Further, even if a DM did do such a thing, it stretches the bounds of believability that in encounter after encounter, every group of monsters always seems to have enemies who are perfectly positioned to exploit the knight's one weak point, as if the forces of fate and chance were conspiring to exploit his weaknesses. Moreover, the DM shouldn't have to do this. If your game is trucking along well, and you'd suddenly have to rewrite every single planned encounter because someone brings a knight to the group, that's not balance.


a knight with Charisma 30 is nigh unstoppable, bring him down to charisma 20, he's still tough as hell but he is now manageable, bring him down to 12, he's nigh worthless. He works likes juggernaut is supposed to, hit him with attacks, abilities and even level 9 spells meant to deal balls out damage, he's going to laugh at you and then hit you with seven times the force you hit him with...hit him with something meant to do mental damage, he might be in alot of trouble.

This is exactly the trouble. Your knight is either an invulnerable juggernaut or a lame duck, and rarely anything in between -- turning D&D into a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors. D&D characters aren't supposed to be night unstoppable with one fatal weakness. That's why your players complained about your knight. People don't get excited about playing rock-paper-scissors for six hours every Saturday night. Being invulnerable is a nice ego trip for the knight's player, but D&D characters aren't intended to be invulnerable. Party members are supposed to need one another. That's why they're in a party. Did you notice that Sir Jason never needed any of the PCs? That's a warning sign indicating the class needs a balance adjustment.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This is an example of Stormwind Fallacy, thinking "this is balanced because I can imagine a certain situation in which if the DM does X, the party is balanced." There's only one monster in the MM that can damage Charisma with an incorporeal touch attack: the ghost, IF it selects the Draining Touch ability, and even then, only 1d4 Cha per touch. Completely setting aside the fact that a knight with a ghost touch weapon could one-shot any ghost, Many DMs will not think to themselves "Oh, Pat rolled a knight. I'd better put ghosts in all my encounters." Further, even if a DM did do such a thing, it stretches the bounds of believability that in encounter after encounter, every group of monsters always seems to have enemies who are perfectly positioned to exploit the knight's one weak point, as if the forces of fate and chance were conspiring to exploit his weaknesses. Moreover, the DM shouldn't have to do this. If your game is trucking along well, and you'd suddenly have to rewrite every single planned encounter because someone brings a knight to the group, that's not balance.

This. D&D is balanced around all character being able to contribute in as many situations as possible. It doesn't do this WELL, but that's the design goal. At lower balance tiers (Rogue vs. Monk, for example, or even up to Warblade vs. Swordsage) victory isn't assured by either class. At the highest tiers (Wizard, Cleric, Artificer, technically Ubercharger builds for this purpose) it becomes rocket-tag: whoever hits first is likely to win.

But this class? It has immense damage, immense resistances...there's nothing it's bad against, no way to damage it, short of a single weakness: Charisma drain. That's not balance, nor does it even APPROACH balance.

If you'd like, I can give you an exhaustive critique as to exactly where and why this class falls apart. Would you be interested in reading such a thing?

[Showzilla]

This. D&D is balanced around all character being able to contribute in as many situations as possible. It doesn't do this WELL, but that's the design goal. At lower balance tiers (Rogue vs. Monk, for example, or even up to Warblade vs. Swordsage) victory isn't assured by either class. At the highest tiers (Wizard, Cleric, Artificer, technically Ubercharger builds for this purpose) it becomes rocket-tag: whoever hits first is likely to win.

But this class? It has immense damage, immense resistances...there's nothing it's bad against, no way to damage it, short of a single weakness: Charisma drain. That's not balance, nor does it even APPROACH balance.

If you'd like, I can give you an exhaustive critique as to exactly where and why this class falls apart. Would you be interested in reading such a thing?

sure, so far when I've run this, nobodies gotten that out of hand, but I put this up to get feed back

[Showzilla]

This is an example of Stormwind Fallacy, thinking "this is balanced because I can imagine a certain situation in which if the DM does X, the party is balanced." There's only one monster in the MM that can damage Charisma with an incorporeal touch attack: the ghost, IF it selects the Draining Touch ability, and even then, only 1d4 Cha per touch. Completely setting aside the fact that a knight with a ghost touch weapon could one-shot any ghost, Many DMs will not think to themselves "Oh, Pat rolled a knight. I'd better put ghosts in all my encounters." Further, even if a DM did do such a thing, it stretches the bounds of believability that in encounter after encounter, every group of monsters always seems to have enemies who are perfectly positioned to exploit the knight's one weak point, as if the forces of fate and chance were conspiring to exploit his weaknesses. Moreover, the DM shouldn't have to do this. If your game is trucking along well, and you'd suddenly have to rewrite every single planned encounter because someone brings a knight to the group, that's not balance.



This is exactly the trouble. Your knight is either an invulnerable juggernaut or a lame duck, and rarely anything in between -- turning D&D into a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors. D&D characters aren't supposed to be night unstoppable with one fatal weakness. That's why your players complained about your knight. People don't get excited about playing rock-paper-scissors for six hours every Saturday night. Being invulnerable is a nice ego trip for the knight's player, but D&D characters aren't intended to be invulnerable. Party members are supposed to need one another. That's why they're in a party. Did you notice that Sir Jason never needed any of the PCs? That's a warning sign indicating the class needs a balance adjustment.
but earlier you set up a situation where I had to bring in something that requires a fort that challenges the knight and set it against everyone. I can't think of too many things off the bat that involves a fort save that high in the first 20 levels. Second, the knight get +51 when he is in an enhanced state and when he uses a special ability that has a limited number of charges.

[jiriku]

but earlier you set up a situation where I had to bring in something that requires a fort that challenges the knight and set it against everyone. I can't think of too many things off the bat that involves a fort save that high in the first 20 levels.

This is true, and exposes an issue. The knight isn't supposed to be immune to effects requiring a Fort save, but he effectively is, because nothing has save DCs that can threaten him. Immunity doesn't fit the fluff of the class either: the knight's fluff is "i'm really tough!", not "I have no metabolism!"


Second, the knight get +51 when he is in an enhanced state and when he uses a special ability that has a limited number of charges.

This is also true. But by level 20, that's six encounters per day. "He's only immune to everything for the six hardest encounters of every day" isn't a good balance point.

For practice: Flip through any Monster Manual and pick any random monster of CR X. Now, imagine a party of 4 PCs of level X face an encounter with two of those monsters (that's an EL of X+2, which should be one the PCs would win after a fairly challenging fight). Imagine how the fight would go for the knight, and how it would go for members of average, mid-power classes like bard, warblade, beguiler, or psychic warrior. Imagine how the group would fare if the knight was instead replaced with a similar defender class like a crusader. Now, mentally add more monsters until you think the encounter is difficult enough to seriously challenge the knight. How is the rest of his party doing now? Are they contributing alongside him, or do they need to run and hide to have any hope of surviving? Do this several times for several random monsters throughout the Monster Manual. If you find that against most monsters, the knight breezes through any encounter except those that would slaughter his compatriots like cattle, then the numbers are out of whack.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Valor: a knight draws on the power of his spirit and devotion to good, he adds his cha modifier to his strength and constitution. It functions similarly to barbarian rage. He gains a +2 to will and a -2 to ac

Great valor: the charisma mod is now 50% more potent . +3 to will, -2 to ac

Mighty valor: double the charisma used in valor. +4 to will. +2 ac.

This is fine in theory, save for two things. Firstly, why is a Valorous Knight easier to hit? That confuses me.

The major concern, however, is how open-ended this is. If you look at the Barbarian's Rage ability, you'll see that it has a hard value, because this prevents abuse. You always know how big a +8 is. With this, however...well, I can easily hit a 30 Charisma, which means that, assuming a 20 Strength and Constitution (a low estimate), I can get +20 to those stats, which is a +10 bonus. That means I'm in this state for 18 rounds, running around with 40 Strength, 40 Constitution (that's 200 bonus hit points at 20th level from this ability alone, by the way), and 30 Charisma. That's a bit crazy. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the Greater Valor and Might Valor abilities: in fact, without those, it's relatively balanced with a Barbarian's Rage ability.


Powerful strike: a knight can destroy even the hardiest of evil doers with his strong sword arm. A knight add ½ his str mod to damage with one handed weapons and his shield block value. He also doubles the str mod use for damage when wielding a two handed weapon( 3 times his strength mod). As the knight continues to build his skill, his body hardens and his strikes become more sure, every four levels grants the knight a +2(+3 2handed)or on a full attack action +4(+6 with two-handed weapons) to damage rolls, these bonuses stack. At level 8, a knight gains an additional ½ bonus to damage on each hand. He now use four times the strength mod he would use on two handed weapons. At level 10, all his damage bonuses upgrade from +2(+3) to +3(+4) and when he uses a full round attack option he gets +6(+9). at level 20, the damage bonuses increase one last time to +4(+5) on single attacks and +8(+12) when he goes in for a full attack option.

So on a dedicated meatshield class, you're giving some of the highest flat damage bonuses I've seen. Remember...I'm carrying around up to 40 Strength when in Valor, meaning that my 2 handed weapon is dealing +72 damage per hit with a full attack routine. This just gets far to out of hand...that's about +280 odd damage per full attack routine. To put this in perspective, a 9th level Martial Maneuver allows a Warblade to make a single attack that deals +100 damage. This ability you have, on every attack, is basically almost that good on any one of those attacks.

Further, you're increasing his block value, and I'll show you later how dangerous this gets when combined with your armor rules from the other thread.


Defend ally: a knight may use his block strike action to defend any allies within reach.

You don't say what a block strike action is. :smalltongue:


Great armor: a knight is a warrior trained to fight in even the heaviest of armors and defensive items, gaining as much as possible from their use. A Knight gains a +2 to his soak while wearing any form of protective item(s). His armor check penalty also takes a -2, his speed penalty lessens by 20ft and his max dexterity bonus to his armor class gains a +2 . The second enhancement grants an additional enhancement: knight can also sleep in any armor with no penalties the next day and his speed and he carries his armor so well that it only counts for ¾ it’s normal weight when determining how much it counts against the knight’s loads. A knight also gains an AC bonus equal to 1/5 his soak bonus from this class feature. He also gains fortification +15% every 4 levels and gains a +1 bonus to his efficiency ranges at lvl 4 and every 5 lvls after that

This could be very much simplified, as it's giving way to many small bonuses when one or two larger ones would accomplish pretty much the same thing. Also, what is an efficiency range? That said, I calculate that this totals +20 to his soak value, which in turn (including the Dex bonus) becomes +6 AC. You also wear armor with basically no penalties to anything that matters to you, and are almost immune to critical hits. Tanky indeed, but, as I'll prove later, this with your other rules is to much.


Parry: a knight is a great martial combatant and can make opponents suffer for their lack of skill. When a knight uses a block strike, should his attack roll exceed his opponent, he may trip or disarm his foe as a free action. The opponent can’t react fast enough to try to trip or disarm the knight.

I'd like to see this block strike rules. I'm not going to touch upon this now, but I imagine that this allows you overly excessive action denial, exacerbating the already bad "Invincible Knight" scenario.


Resistance power: a knight can augment his abilities to shrug off effective attacks. A knight gains resistance powers starting at level three and ends at level five. He may choose one of the three powers at each level until he gains all three by level five. When he gains his first power, the knight may use it once per day. When he gains his second power, he may use each once per encounter and a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier. After gaining all three, he may use each a number of times per encounter equal to his charisma modifier and has a number of per day uses equal to his charisma modifier times his levels as a knight.

Mighty resistance: a Knight tenses up and braces for impact against, sending his body into a state of readiness against physical assaults. A knight may add his strength modifier to his fortitude saves.
Glorious Resistance: a knight can use his heroic spirit to drive out all who would seek to cloud or taint his mind. A knight may add his charisma modifier to his will save.
Tactical Resistance: a knight is a soldier trained to adapt to the hectic flow of combat and can spot the tells of his enemies. A Knight may add his intelligence to his reflex saves.

So, assuming that 30 Charisma...10/encounter I can add my huge bonuses to Charisma and Strength to my already good saves, and my mediocre to low modifier to the save that deals raw damage...something that I already excel at resisting. I can do each of these 200 times per day. Hm. Something isn't right here.

Assuming that reasonable 20 Str/20 Con/30 Cha spread I mentioned (and we'll say 12 Wisdom, 11 Int and 14 Dex)...that's a base of +15 Fort, +7 Wisdom, and +8 Reflex. When in Valor and using this ability, however...

+15 Fort + 10 more from Valor + 10 from Charisma = +35. With a Ring of Resistance +5, that's a low estimate of +40. There is no Fortitude save in the Monster Manual that you can fail on anything but a natural 1.

+7 Wisdom, +10 from this ability +4 from Valor = +21. Again, a ring makes that +26, which is almost as good as the +27 that a level 20, 30 Wis Cleric with a +5 ring could hope to achieve. You'll fail very few Will saves, and most of those only on a 1 or maybe a 2.

Reflex is unimportant.

The conclusion from this though? You can't reliably hit a Knight with anything requiring a save, as he'll just ignore it all. So the fallback plan is what? Well, all that's left is damage, or cheese. But, as I'll show later, damage can't kill a Knight. Nor, apparently, can spells.


Great parry: a knight may also attack an opponent they trip or disarm as a result of a block strike.

So he can hit them and deny them when they attack him. I want to see this block strike mechanic, so my example alter can be more accurate.



DR: a knight can shrug off the blows of combat

And now you work towards making the Knight completely impossible to kill...



Greater improved grapple: a knight now is a master of the wrestling ring. +8 to grapple, take 10, can maintain as a swift action, and is considered one size category larger for grappling limits.

So your Grappling. +15 from Strength (when Valor is active), +8 from this ability, +20 from your attack bonus: that's +43. You can take 10, so we'll call that a 53. You can maintain it as a Swift action.

You are aware that this means that almost nothing in the game can fight back against your grapple? Anything that you can possibly grab is going to be almost entirely unable to break the grab, and fighting back with hit point damage just isn't an option.


Martyr: a knight throws himself into the fray defending his partners, by becoming using a free action to activate it while he has valor turned on, he grants his partners a bonus to ac equal to his charisma mod used in his valor power and gains a bonus to his AC, soak, attack rolls and damage rolls equal to his charisma mod, these bonuses keep adding up every round. Every round also increases the number of rounds he could be in valor by one round.

So now you have +10 to AC, +10 to your soak, +10 to hit, and +10 to damage on top of everything else. There's no limit on uses I can see aside from Valor, and "increases every round" implies that these bonuses keep stacking. I really hope that's not what you mean...can you help me clarify your wording here?


Math Time
Regardless, let's do some mathcrafting here. I'm pretend Soak doesn't exist for the first example (standard D&D), and I'm ignoring your ability to block + action deny, and your ability to auto-win grapples.

Average hp for a 20th level, 20 Con character is around 235. We'll run with that.

We'll assume that Valor and Martyr are active, and that the bonuses from Martyr doesn't increase with time.

Your total combat benefits are as follows:

DR 5/-
+20 Con (+200 hit points, for 430 total)
+20 Strength
+20 to attack rolls (+10 from the Strength boost, +10 from Martyr)
+16 AC (from Martyr and your static AC boosting abilities)
+82 damage per attack (without the other damage bonus mentioned above included)


This is all in addition to what you normally have. Your Knight (assuming, say, +5 Fullplate) is harder to hit than a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, deals more damage with HALF of his full attack than a Warblade focused entirely on non-cheese levels of damage using a full-round action, auto-wins grapples against foes of Large size or smaller (and can lock down most Huge foes as well), has more HP than your average raging Barbarian, and hits MORE OFTEN THAN THE TARRASQUE OR THE AFOREMENTIONED GOLD DRAGON. His lowest attack roll comes in at (with a +5 weapon) +35, and his highest at +50. He misses his first through third attack against a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon on a roll of 1, and his fourth on a roll of 6 or less. He can't miss any non-dragon monster in the Monster Manual with anything but his last attack.

And speaking of that...with his damage output, he will single-handedly fell a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon within three rounds of combat. It can't possibly kill him in the same timeframe, and his saves are to high for it to harm him reliably with spells.


I have class now, but next will be the examples with your armor system in place.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So now let's introduce Soak. According to your other thread, Soak reduces damage from every source that hits you. A Knight with Martyr up Soaks an additional 30 damage, on top of a base: in the other thread, you gave an example of soaking 48 points of damage as a base.

Again, we'll pit him against that same Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (a fitting encounter for an entire party of 20th level characters).

The Great Wyrm has the following attacks: Bite (4d8+17), 2 Claws (4d6+8), 2 Wings (2d8+8), 1 Tail Slap (4d6+25). The only abilities that can penetrate the Soak are the Bite and the Tail Slap, which will both deal 1 damage. The same is true of the Tarrasque's Bite, and those are the two highest damage attacks in the Monster Manual. However, that 1 damage is absorbed by the Knight's DR, meaning that only critical hits can hurt the Knight.

The average crit from the Great Wyrm's Bite deals 62 damage. 48 of that is soaked, and 5 resisted by DR. So that's 9 damage that goes through per crit, on average. A 20th level Knight negates (15% * 5) = 75% of crits. So for every 80 attacks (4 crits) from the Great Wyrm's most powerful attacks, a Knight takes 9 damage. Those 80 attacks would otherwise have dealt 3,120 damage. It takes 48 hits for 9 damage each to kill a 430 hp Knight (as I showed above, that's his average hp value).

What does this mean? Assuming average rolls, it will take a great Wyrm almost three hours to kill a Knight. In that time, the Knight has negated enough damage to raise his effective hit points (i.e. the amount of damage he would have taken without results) to 149,067, or 346 times his normal hit point total. It would take 1920 rounds to kill the Knight if the Dragon gets both attacks each round, or 3.2 hours of smacking the Knight around.

The Knight, in turn, hits, on average, 3.5 times per round, for slightly over 100 damage per attack. That kills the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon in 2 rounds flat. So, if he fights the Great Wyrms one at a time, he can kill 949 of them without stopping before the last one has a 50% chance to kill the Knight before the Knight kills it.

If the Great Wyrms use exclusively save-or-die effects, he can only kill 5-10 single-handedly before he's liable to fail a saving throw. I say only, but that's soloing 5-10 CR 23 encounters without stopping. And Valor WILL last long enough for him to kill 10 Dragons, as that only takes him 20 rounds. For his Valor to run out (assuming that it lasts the minimum of 18 rounds, and that it's not extended by the possible maximum of 34-36 Charisma, nor by Martyr), a foe needs to have, effectively, over 6300 health. The highest hit point value in a published 3.5 book is the Devastation Beetle, with 2,880 hit points. Yes, such a creature would kill a 20th level Knight...but then again, it's CR 50.

Can you see the problems here?

You should. The Knight is invincible. It can out-damage almost any class, it can soak any damage, it doesn't fail saves. It can beat a Warblade in direct combat, it can beat a Monk in unarmed combat. It can wrestle an Adult Dragon to the ground. It literally cannot lose a combat against anything of a reasonably close CR unless outnumbered more than 10-1 by Tarrasques and/or Dragons, or unless faced with insane damage cheese or no-save-just-die spells.

Not only will it always win, but only a select handful of opponents can even damage the Knight. That's such a huge problem I'm not even sure how to phrase it.

[jiriku]

I pulled this from the armor thread. I believe these are the block strike rules.


shields work with another home rule of of mine (quick sum up, you have two actions you have per round that you use when you are on the defensive, the block is basically when someone takes a swing at you, you can swing back and block it with your weapon or shield, if you meet or exceed their attack roll, your safe and shields get to add their ac bonus to this), if you fail to successfully block a strike, you roll a dice assigned to that shield, add the strength mod of that hand and subtract that from damage....before you soak with armor (yes, shield carriers with armor are hard as hell to hurt).

So, I'm making some assumptions here, but if I read it correctly you get two free block attempts per round when attacked (I think by "on the defensive" he meant merely being attacked, not fighting defensively or using full defense), and can attempt a parry with your melee attack roll. If you succeed, the hit is negated. If you fail and are blocking with a shield, you get free additional damage reduction - probably to the tune of an extra DR 20/- in your current example. By choosing to always block the dragon's bite and tail slap attacks, the knight should therefore be able to solo one great wyrm gold dragon every other round with no damage to himself for as long as his buff lasts.

[ErrantX]

Can you see the problems here?

You should. The Knight is invincible. It can out-damage almost any class, it can soak any damage, it doesn't fail saves. It can beat a Warblade in direct combat, it can beat a Monk in unarmed combat. It can wrestle an Adult Dragon to the ground. It literally cannot lose a combat against anything of a reasonably close CR unless outnumbered more than 10-1 by Tarrasques and/or Dragons, or unless faced with insane damage cheese or no-save-just-die spells.

Wow... that's very thorough.

Djinn just blinded me with science and math. I guess there you go!

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So, I'm making some assumptions here, but if I read it correctly you get two free block attempts per round when attacked (I think by "on the defensive" he meant merely being attacked, not fighting defensively or using full defense), and can attempt a parry with your melee attack roll. If you succeed, the hit is negated. If you fail and are blocking with a shield, you get free additional damage reduction - probably to the tune of an extra DR 20/- in your current example.

Oh. Well, in that case my math is messed up. Adding a Shield Block not only doubles the attack the Dragon needs to make, but an extra 20 Soak means that your average crit deals no damage, so only about 25% of crits that go through will damage...which, in turn, multiplier the number of attacks needed by another 4.

So that means we're looking at an effective health value of 1,192,536 against the most powerful monster attacks in the game. Anything that deals less damage only increases this effective health value, since even MORE hits are required.

In an 18 round Valor, he can kill roughly 10 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons, and take, on average, no damage.

:smalleek:

All I can say is no no no NO.

...by the way? That's not even accounting for the fact that the Knight can trip the Dragon repeatedly with every attack it could actually damage him with (allowing him to live even longer, since the Dragon will be denied actions), nor the fact that he'd kill more with the extra attacks his class abilities give him when he blocks. :smallfrown:

[Zeta Kai]

Misleading title is misleading.

[Showzilla]

So now let's introduce Soak. According to your other thread, Soak reduces damage from every source that hits you. A Knight with Martyr up Soaks an additional 30 damage, on top of a base: in the other thread, you gave an example of soaking 48 points of damage as a base.

Again, we'll pit him against that same Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (a fitting encounter for an entire party of 20th level characters).

The Great Wyrm has the following attacks: Bite (4d8+17), 2 Claws (4d6+8), 2 Wings (2d8+8), 1 Tail Slap (4d6+25). The only abilities that can penetrate the Soak are the Bite and the Tail Slap, which will both deal 1 damage. The same is true of the Tarrasque's Bite, and those are the two highest damage attacks in the Monster Manual. However, that 1 damage is absorbed by the Knight's DR, meaning that only critical hits can hurt the Knight.

The average crit from the Great Wyrm's Bite deals 62 damage. 48 of that is soaked, and 5 resisted by DR. So that's 9 damage that goes through per crit, on average. A 20th level Knight negates (15% * 5) = 75% of crits. So for every 80 attacks (4 crits) from the Great Wyrm's most powerful attacks, a Knight takes 9 damage. Those 80 attacks would otherwise have dealt 3,120 damage. It takes 48 hits for 9 damage each to kill a 430 hp Knight (as I showed above, that's his average hp value).

What does this mean? Assuming average rolls, it will take a great Wyrm... In that time, the Knight has negated enough damage to raise his effective hit points (i.e. the amount of damage he would have taken without results) to 149,067, or 346 times his normal hit point total. It would take 1920 rounds to kill the Knight if the Dragon gets both attacks each round, or 3.2 hours of smacking the Knight around.

The Knight, in turn, hits, on average, 3.5 times per round, for slightly over 100 damage per attack. That kills the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon in 2 rounds flat. So, if he fights the Great Wyrms one at a time, he can kill 949 of them without stopping before the last one has a 50% chance to kill the Knight before the Knight kills it.

If the Great Wyrms use exclusively save-or-die effects, he can only kill 5-10 single-handedly before he's liable to fail a saving throw. I say only, but that's soloing 5-10 CR 23 encounters without stopping. And Valor WILL last long enough for him to kill 10 Dragons, as that only takes him 20 rounds. For his Valor to run out (assuming that it lasts the minimum of 18 rounds, and that it's not extended by the possible maximum of 34-36 Charisma, nor by Martyr), a foe needs to have, effectively, over 6300 health. The highest hit point value in a published 3.5 book is the Devastation Beetle, with 2,880 hit points. Yes, such a creature would kill a 20th level Knight...but then again, it's CR 50.

Can you see the problems here?

You should. The Knight is invincible. It can out-damage almost any class, it can soak any damage, it doesn't fail saves. It can beat a Warblade in direct combat, it can beat a Monk in unarmed combat. It can wrestle an Adult Dragon to the ground. It literally cannot lose a combat against anything of a reasonably close CR unless outnumbered more than 10-1 by Tarrasques and/or Dragons, or unless faced with insane damage cheese or no-save-just-die spells.

Not only will it always win, but only a select handful of opponents can even damage the Knight. That's such a huge problem I'm not even sure how to phrase it.
....wow...resistance powers...nerfing powers activate..... he can use them much less times per day(charisma mod per day per power), everything else will go under heavy scrutiny and consideration.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

....wow...resistance powers...nerfing powers activate..... he can use them much less times per day(charisma mod per day per power), everything else will go under heavy scrutiny and consideration.

Good start. That said, your formula is unnecessarily complicated, as are the Resistance Powers. Using Grace as a basis (add Charisma to saves) would be an acceptable replacement for the entire Resistance Power ability, and then all you'd need to do would be to lessen the class' overall use for Charisma (so that it's no longer the PRIMARY stat), reduce the crazy damage you get (pick one to specialize in: damage mitigation or damage output) and (and this is the important part) completely revise the armor system that is mostly responsible for making this class a monstrous beast of a thing.


As a heads up, any time a class goes 12 rounds solo toe-to-toe against the Tarrasque without magical back-up and is A: still standing and B: almost a full health, your class is horribly, horribly overpowered. The same goes for beating up another class in that class' area of expertise (the Monk & unarmed fighting in this example), killing him in three hits, and taking no damage in the process. Those are warning signs of poor design, not funny stories of how fun and balanced the class is.

[jiriku]

Good start. That said, your formula is unnecessarily complicated, as are the Resistance Powers. Using Grace as a basis (add Charisma to saves) would be an acceptable replacement for the entire Resistance Power ability, and then all you'd need to do would be to lessen the class' overall use for Charisma (so that it's no longer the PRIMARY stat), reduce the crazy damage you get (pick one to specialize in: damage mitigation or damage output) and (and this is the important part) completely revise the armor system that is mostly responsible for making this class a monstrous beast of a thing.

Agreed, Charisma to saves is easy to use and easy to remember. It works well on a pally, because a pally has plenty of use for his other stats and wouldn't want to make Charisma his highest stat. Make the knight focus primarily on Strength and Constitution (which makes more sense, anyhow), and Charisma to saves (added once, not twice or three times) should work fine.

[Showzilla]

Agreed, Charisma to saves is easy to use and easy to remember. It works well on a pally, because a pally has plenty of use for his other stats and wouldn't want to make Charisma his highest stat. Make the knight focus primarily on Strength and Constitution (which makes more sense, anyhow), and Charisma to saves (added once, not twice or three times) should work fine.

check it now that resistance powers have been removed(currently nothing has been but back in its place)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

check it now that resistance powers have been removed(currently nothing has been but back in its place)

You still have all the same problems...all you've done is change the invincibility to save-or-die spells as WELL as damage. The class is still fundamentally broken.

[paddyfool]

Another nerf to suggest: cap the potential bonus to Str and Con from Valor. It's all a bit much. And/or have the player divide it among Str and Con (so that with, say, a +10 bonus, they could have +10 Str, or +10 Con, or +6 Str and +4 Con, or whatever), halving the effective overall bonus and giving them more options in combat. (In this fight, do I want to be tough or good at hitting things?)

[Showzilla]

You still have all the same problems...all you've done is change the invincibility to save-or-die spells as WELL as damage. The class is still fundamentally broken.
nerfing piece by piece

[Showzilla]

Another nerf to suggest: cap the potential bonus to Str and Con from Valor. It's all a bit much. And/or have the player divide it among Str and Con (so that with, say, a +10 bonus, they could have +10 Str, or +10 Con, or +6 Str and +4 Con, or whatever), halving the effective overall bonus and giving them more options in combat. (In this fight, do I want to be tough or good at hitting things?)

no.....Valor can turn into a hinderance if you drop to a negative modifier. you go from +10 to -10

[jiriku]

Great Valor and Mighty Valor are a large part of the problem. Barbarian gets Greater Rage and Mighty Rage because his flat +4 bonus wouldn't scale otherwise. +Charisma to Str and Con is inherently self-scaling, since a PC can allocate ability points to Charisma every 4 levels or improve it with magic items.

For my money, I'd remove both features and replace them with new features that give the knight new tactical options, like a better bull rush or overrun, a taunt of some kind, an aura power,or even just something basic like +5 reach when using a two-handed weapon.

[Showzilla]

Great Valor and Mighty Valor are a large part of the problem. Barbarian gets Greater Rage and Mighty Rage because his flat +4 bonus wouldn't scale otherwise. +Charisma to Str and Con is inherently self-scaling, since a PC can allocate ability points to Charisma every 4 levels or improve it with magic items.

For my money, I'd remove both features and replace them with new features that give the knight new tactical options, like a better bull rush or overrun, a taunt of some kind, an aura power,or even just something basic like +5 reach when using a two-handed weapon.

thing is this double when it's positive
double when it negative.
as my friend one stated, if you can crit fail, you can crit succeed

[paddyfool]

no.....Valor can turn into a hinderance if you drop to a negative modifier. you go from +10 to -10

You're overstating the effect of ability damage here, imho. A Knight with a Cha of 20 and, say, Int as a dump stat would drop from Int damage by the time his Cha fell below 10, for instance. Basing this ability off that stat really isn't introducing any extra vulnerability to ability damage to the class.

[jiriku]

thing is this double when it's positive
double when it negative.
as my friend one stated, if you can crit fail, you can crit succeed

It's never negative. Really. There are only so many ghosts with draining touch in the world, and as paddyfool points out, those ghosts would be better off dealing Int drain to the knight in order to drain his weakest stat and drop him than to drain his highest stat and get the snot beaten out of them while the knight laughs off their piddly 1d4 drain and hits back for several hundred hp damage.

[Showzilla]

You're overstating the effect of ability damage here, imho. A Knight with a Cha of 20 and, say, Int as a dump stat would drop from Int damage by the time his Cha fell below 10, for instance. Basing this ability off that stat really isn't introducing any extra vulnerability to ability damage to the class.

k, I'll state some numbers.
lets assume that if someone can ID a knight on the battlefield. They hammer him down with CHA damage and bring him from cha 20 to cha 12: he goes from +10 to a +2.
now what if he drops to 8: his strength and con take a -2
6=-4
4=-8

[Showzilla]

It's never negative. Really. There are only so many ghosts with draining touch in the world, and as paddyfool points out, those ghosts would be better off dealing Int drain to the knight in order to drain his weakest stat and drop him than to drain his highest stat and get the snot beaten out of them while the knight laughs off their piddly 1d4 drain and hits back for several hundred hp damage.

ghostS? I was talking bout casters

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

For a similar flavor to Valor, and a better balanced form of the Powerful Strike ability that further enforces the idea of the Knight as a protector...


Valor (Ex): A Knight is a valorous combatant. If an ally within 100 feet of you falls below 50% of his or her normal hit point total, the Knight rises to the occasion. For the rest of the encounter, the Knight gains DR 2/-, and he gains a +2 Morale bonus to his AC and his Saving Throws. Allies within 100ft who have line of sight to the Knight or can hear him in battle gain half of these benefits (DR 1/- and a +1 Morale bonus to AC and Saving Throws). Finally, the first time each round the Knight deals damage to an enemy with a melee attack, he and all allies within 100ft regain 2 hit points (this effect stacks with White Raven stances that grant similar benefits). These benefits last until the end of the encounter, but are not applicable during any round in which the Knight is helpless or unable to take actions.

1st level: Valor (DR 2/-, +2, 2 hit points)
5th level: Valor (DR 4/-, +2, 3 hit points)
9th level: Valor (DR 6/-, +2, 4 hit points)
13th level: Valor (DR 8/-, +4, 5 hit points)
17th level: Valor (DR 10/-, +4, 6 hit points)

So by the end the Knight has DR 10/- and a +4 to AC and Saves, while his allies have DR 5/- and +2 to AC and Saves. They all heal 6 hit points the first time each round the Knight hits a target with a melee attack.

Is it as powerful? No. Is it more flavorful, and more in keeping with the idea of a Knight, and the idea of a sudden surge of Valor when it's most needed? Probably. Does it give the Knight extra power in combat in a balanced and easy to moderate fashion? Yes. Success.

Your armor system still needs to be completely revised though...with that system, even this ability is OP in the hands of the Knight.

Protect the Weak (Ex): A Knight gains a bonus to attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier and a bonus to damage rolls equal to 2 + ½ his class level (rounded down, minimum 1) against enemies who have struck one of the Knight’s allies in the last two rounds. If the Knight is wielding a 2-handed weapon, he gains 1.5x the listed bonus to damage instead of the listed bonus.

Now your foes have a choice: attack you, and eat through your tankiness, or pick on the squishier allies you have and allow you to deal greater damage to them. +12 - +18 isn't exactly heavy damage, but it's enough to give an attacker pause while not being inherently overpowered on a tanky class.

[jiriku]

ghostS? I was talking bout casters

Ok, fair enough. So we're talking about bestow curse, contagion, feeblemind, flensing, greater bestow curse, greater contagion, and touch of idiocy. Except that all of those either require a save (which the knight will pass), or impose a non-stacking penalty, which will never exceed -6, or perhaps -9 with lots of metamagic. So, assuming your knight has a Charisma of at least 16-19, the knight's Charisma modifier will never be negative.

If I can toss on an additional thought, the idea of Valor making you weaker if your Charisma is low doesn't make sense, fluff-wise. History is full of knights who were brutish, uncouth and boorish, to say nothing of ugy. Low Charisma didn't render these knights weak of limb or frail of body.

Djinn: I think you mean Devoted Spirit stances.

[Showzilla]

Ok, fair enough. So we're talking about bestow curse, contagion, feeblemind, flensing, greater bestow curse, greater contagion, and touch of idiocy. Except that all of those either require a save (which the knight will pass), or impose a non-stacking penalty, which will never exceed -6, or perhaps -9 with lots of metamagic. I say again, the knight's Charisma modifier will never be negative.

If I can toss on an additional thought, the idea of Valor making you weaker if your Charisma is low doesn't make sense, fluff-wise. History is full of knights who were brutish, uncouth and boorish, to say nothing of ugy. Low Charisma didn't render these knights weak of limb or frail of body.

Djinn: I think you mean Devoted Spirit stances.

now the reverse of my statement above
if you can crit succeed, you can crit fail
valor: you push your body past it's limits,the barbarian uses rage, you push on with your sense of heroism, your tenacity, your spirit, and what stat embodies these things?
besides, these penalties occur if you drop to negative while valor is active, think of it as them lose the will to keep fighting, they grow doubtful or something like that.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Djinn: I think you mean Devoted Spirit stances.

Indeed I do. Thanks for that.


valor: you push your body past it's limits,the barbarian uses rage, you push on with your sense of heroism, your tenacity, your spirit, and what stat embodies these things?
besides, these penalties occur if you drop to negative while valor is active, think of it as them lose the will to keep fighting, they grow doubtful or something like that.

The point, however, is that that's unlikely to ever happen. Additionally, take the Paladin's Smite Evil. Even a negative Cha Paladin gets a +1 to hit, 'cause there's a minimum stuck on the value.

But yeah...Valor, as you've written it, isn't a very well build mechanic. There's to much Charisma dependence, and to much variance.

[jiriku]

My thought is that you would then no longer be able to push, as you lack the "pushing muscle" (a forceful personality, in this case). If you try to unscrew a pickle jar and are exceptionally weak, the lid doesn't screw itself on tighter, it just doesn't budge.

But that's really a philosophical point. Let's look at the whole crit succeed/crit fail thing. Where is the crit? I'm not seeing a dice roll. There's no gamble, no risk. You simply ROCK HARD during the first several fights of every day, with no risk. If somebody slaps you with ray of idiocy, then you ROCK HARD for your usual amount minus 1d6/2 - hardly a noticeable loss if your Charisma is large (which it is, of course). Additional rays of idiocy don't stack and are therefore of negligible threat to you. Your Charisma modifier never goes negative, you always get your benefit whenever you want as a free action, and there's no crit success or crit fail. Does that make sense?

[Showzilla]

My thought is that you would then no longer be able to push, as you lack the "pushing muscle" (a forceful personality, in this case). If you try to unscrew a pickle jar and are exceptionally weak, the lid doesn't screw itself on tighter, it just doesn't budge.

But that's really a philosophical point. Let's look at the whole crit succeed/crit fail thing. Where is the crit? I'm not seeing a dice roll. There's no gamble, no risk. You simply ROCK HARD during the first several fights of every day, with no risk. If somebody slaps you with ray of idiocy, then you ROCK HARD for your usual amount minus 1d6/2 - hardly a noticeable loss if your Charisma is large (which it is, of course). Additional rays of idiocy don't stack and are therefore of negligible threat to you. Your Charisma modifier never goes negative, you always get your benefit whenever you want as a free action, and there's no crit success or crit fail. Does that make sense?
that is a saying that arose among me and my chums one day when I calmed someone down on a one on a skill check "if I won't allow a crit success, then I won't allow a crit failure"

[jiriku]

Also, stylistically, think about what you're encouraging with Valor. Because Charisma offers 100%, 150%, or 200% of the bonus that a character can get from Strength and Constitution combined, knights in your game world always will prefer to develop their amazing personalities in preference to developing their bodies. Calisthenics, strength training, field exercises, these things are secondary to attending finishing school, learning table manners and how to make polite small talk, attending assertiveness classes and public speaking courses, and reading how to win friends and influence people - for war! Any knight who neglects his personality training for mere athletics is a sucker, because his fellow knights who are learning how to hold their teacups just so while he's out pumping iron will surely beat the crap out of him in combat.

Edit: In fact, I challenge you! Showzilla, I say here and now that your knight is a girly-man! I want to see a MANLY KNIGHT! Show me class features with spit, sweat, and the stink of blood in them! I sneer at these girly knights with their hifalutin' manners and their Ivy League educations! Your knights ride sidesaddle, and look dainty in their armor! GIVE ME GORE! I want knights who scream, howl, and curse the gods if they'll not grant them victory on the field of battle! I scoff at your Charisma-dependency! GIVE ME RED WAR!

[Showzilla]

Also, stylistically, think about what you're encouraging with Valor. Because Charisma offers 100%, 150%, or 200% of the bonus that a character can get from Strength and Constitution combined, knights in your game world always will prefer to develop their amazing personalities in preference to developing their bodies. Calisthenics, strength training, field exercises, these things are secondary to attending finishing school, learning table manners and how to make polite small talk, attending assertiveness classes and public speaking courses, and reading how to win friends and influence people - for war! Any knight who neglects his personality training for mere athletics is a sucker, because his fellow knights who are learning how to hold their teacups just so while he's out pumping iron will surely beat the crap out of him in combat.

Edit: In fact, I challenge you! Showzilla, I say here and now that your knight is a girly-man! I want to see a MANLY KNIGHT! Show me class features with spit, sweat, and the stink of blood in them! I sneer at these girly knights with their hifalutin' manners and their Ivy League educations! Your knights ride sidesaddle, and look dainty in their armor! GIVE ME GORE! I want knights who scream, howl, and curse the gods if they'll not grant them victory on the field of battle! I scoff at your Charisma-dependency. GIVE ME RED WAR!

str 30 vs 20
cha 20 vs 30
valor
str:30+10=40
str:20+20=40
any way, you seem to want to goad a bit of a fight out of me...well then....if you want blood.....you've got it...
while your sissy knights are learning how to clean their lady bits and your howling barbarians lift weights and runs miles in armor, my knight lifts weights, he runs several miles in his armor with his comrades, he picks up those that can't push on and carries them the rest of the way, he trains until his body can give no more and then he pushes himself on, he fights until his last and then he fights some more, he kicks reality to the curb, breaks the unbreakable, touches the untouchable, he fights against the malevolent powers that be in this world, he builds his strength and his charisma in combat, he learns to be as confident in his sword as his allies are in his sword arm, and that's what makes a KNIGHT!!!!!...no...THAT'S WHAT MAKES A MAN!! row row, FIGHT THE POWAH!!!!!! so while your "knights" pound at him from all sides, he fights back with all and summons forth an unseen power that they cant even dream of wielding, slaughtering all in his wake before directing his righteous furry at his enemies heathen gods and declares that they are next!!!!!!!!

[jiriku]

(This is all just in fun. :smallsmile:)

Those are big numbers, from a class that has Knowledge (manners) as a class skill! I nominate my knight-paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700) to serve as my champion in this match. a match, not of numbers, but of knightliness! Let us compare class features so that all may judge whose knight is more brawny, masculine, and smells of sweat, armor grease, and horse poop! We shall trade class features, or taunts and insults about features of our opponent, until a victor is declared or the thread grows boring! :smallbiggrin:

Let the competition begin! My knight has a challenge feature, allowing him to call out his foes to do battle, as I am now doing! What have thee, sir knight?

[Showzilla]

(This is all just in fun. :smallsmile:)

Those are big numbers, from a class that has Knowledge (manners) as a class skill! I nominate my knight-paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700) to serve as my champion in this match. a match, not of numbers, but of knightliness! Let us compare class features so that all may judge whose knight is more brawny, masculine, and smells of sweat, armor grease, and horse poop! We shall trade class features, or taunts and insults about features of our opponent, until a victor is declared or the thread grows boring! :smallbiggrin:

Let the competition begin! My knight has a challenge feature, allowing him to call out his foes to do battle, as I am now doing! What have thee, sir knight?

refer to my above statement....NOW! this is fun

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

refer to my above statement....NOW! this is fun

So...should we let the two of you get on with this, or would you like us to attempt to balance your creation?

[jiriku]

Well said! Well said! I'll take this challenge and return another.


My knight... has a horse. We'll see you at the battlefield next week. Hope you aren't tired from all that walking in full plate.


KNIGHT-PALADIN
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Knight-Paladin/JoustingSteed.jpg

KNIGHT
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Knight-Paladin/monty-python-holy-grail-horses.jpg

Djinn: Pssh, maturity and focus. What is it good for, absolutely nothing. Huah! Good gawd, y'all! :smallbiggrin:

[Showzilla]

(Probably a good idea to edit out the v word - that may trigger a mod response)

Well said! Well said! I'll take this challenge and return another.


My knight... has a horse. We'll see you at the battlefield next week. Hope you aren't tired from all that walking in full plate.

Djinn: Pssh, maturity and focus. What is it good for, absolutely nothing. Huah! Good gawd, y'all! :smallbiggrin:
have no fear my good chum for I use the same skills as my ph2 counter part, I ride with thee into battle oh wayward brother!! heeyaa!!!

Knight
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/227/b/2/teutonic_knight_by_odinoir-d46lcdj.jpg
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs40/f/2009/051/b/7/GAAAARRRRR_by_beanclam.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/010/0/2/020d52a3d5abfa9195c32102deaf6130-d36wz43.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/057/9/8/the_steam_knight_by_reaper78-d3ahm0x.jpg
now that would be a good class Idea
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/253/f/e/warrior_by_happyfungus.jpg

[jiriku]

You ride a mundane horse into battle? You may be able to kill a thousand great wyrm gold dragons, sir knight, but without a special mount, you'll be facedown in the mud and smelling of barbecued horse after the first blast of fire!

(Psst, Djinn! If you'll look very closely, you'll see that we are discussing class features. A little. I think. Look closely, it's there. No, closer than that. :smalltongue:)

[Showzilla]

You ride a mundane horse into battle? You may be able to kill a thousand great wyrm gold dragons, sir knight, but without a special mount, you'll be facedown in the mud and smelling of barbecued horse after the first blast of fire!

(Psst, Djinn! If you'll look very closely, you'll see that we are discussing class features. A little. I think. Look closely, it's there. No, closer than that. :smalltongue:)

hahaha, you need your steed in combat, I can fight not only to save my self, but I can defend all others who are near me, for I am not part of the charge, I do not lead the charge, I am the charge. for you all shall see, the preservation of the martyr in me!

[jiriku]

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/010/0/2/020d52a3d5abfa9195c32102deaf6130-d36wz43.jpg

Now that is an excellent picture of your knight, sir! But who's the armored fellow on the horse with her? Oh wait, that must be the guy who owns the horse!

Yes, I've heard that knights of your type are handy to stand next to. That's well done, sir, as an honorable knight should be a defender of the weak. Bravo. My knight-paladin can protect the weak as well. In fact, he can use shield other and glory of the martyr to protect them even if they're spread out through a room like adventurers usually are. Still, I imagine you get by somehow, perhaps by using perfumes and steamy innuendos to encourage others to remain nearby.

[Showzilla]

Now that is an excellent picture of your knight, sir! But who's the armored fellow on the horse with her? Oh wait, that must be the guy who owns the horse!

Yes, I've heard that knights of your type are handy to stand next to. That's well done, sir, as an honorable knight should be a defender of the weak. Bravo. My knight-paladin can protect the weak as well. In fact, he can use shield other and glory of the martyr to protect them even if they're spread out through a room like adventurers usually are. Still, I imagine you get by somehow, perhaps by using perfumes and steamy innuendos to encourage others to remain nearby.

no, I just dig deep and pull the damage away from them and towards me with SHEER FORCE OF WILL!!!

[jiriku]

Yes, but what do you do to protect them for the other 18 levels while you're waiting to get Martyr? Perhaps you write them get-well-soon cards with elegant calligraphy. I hear they teach that at your knight school. They sure don't teach how to protect an ally who's out of your reach, though. Perhaps you might add a feature in that 9th level that you opened up, something to fill the gap.

[Showzilla]

Yes, but what do you do to protect them for the other 18 levels while you're waiting to get Martyr? Perhaps you write them get-well cards with elegant calligraphy. I hear they teach that at your knight school. They sure don't teach how to protect an ally who's out of your reach, though.
I can give the that, though when the beasts see me charging into the battle they tend to either focus on me or run away, especially after I split their great wyrm leader in half with a single well place blow, something that I taught myself, how do your little prayers do when thee have been laid low with a great hammer?

[jiriku]

Heh. Although the honorable djinn has exposed your mathematical inequities for all to see, a great wyrm dragon will merely turn invisible, laugh quietly to himself, and proceed to ignore your armor-plated butt while he munches on your party. Your survival will mean little when you return to your order in disgrace with neither your companions nor the head of the beast.

My knight-paladin, on the other hand, can detect the direction to an invisible being with detect hostile intent, and dispel the invisibility with greater dispel magic. And he doesn't get these powers by poking around in books like some namby-pamby wizard. He gets them because HE IS RIGHTEOUS. Perhaps you have some means of detecting invisible creatures, sir knight? See invisibility, perhaps, or tremorsense, since, being unhorsed, you're already on the ground? Spot as a class skill, even? No? A pity, that.

[Showzilla]

Heh. Although the honorable djinn has exposed your mathematical inequities for all to see, a great wyrm dragon will merely turn invisible, laugh quietly to himself, and proceed to ignore your armor-plated butt while he munches on your party. Your survival will mean little when you return to your order in disgrace with neither your companions nor the head of the beast.

My knight-paladin, on the other hand, can detect the direction to an invisible being with detect hostile intent, and dispel the invisibility with greater dispel magic. And he doesn't get these powers by poking around in books like some namby-pamby wizard. He gets them because HE IS RIGHTEOUS. Perhaps you have some means of detecting invisible creatures, sir knight? See invisibility, perhaps, or tremorsense, since, being unhorsed, you're already on the ground? Spot as a class skill, even? No? A pity, that.
wow, my party must not be useful, oh well, if only his damage transfered to me just long enough for either his spell to run out or my party members find him some how or if I keep the wizard or priest nearby and protect them...but, obviously no one hides behind a solid wall.

[jiriku]

How exactly can a wizard hide behind you? Dragon swoops in with flyby attack (because he has a scads of feats and Flyby attack is an obvious choice. Dragon bites and improved grabs the wizzie, continues moving, and flies off with him. Dragon has total concealment, you get no AoO. I don't see any tanking happening here. :smallfrown:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...I hate to interrupt, but this seems like something more appropriate for the Silly Message Board games. Either way, it's not really a format that allows for good discussion and/or critique from anyone else, so I'll be bowing out of this thread now. I think I've said my piece anyway.

[Showzilla]

oi, standard rules variation has been posted. Martyr got moved and changed slightly.

[Showzilla]

oi standard rules knight be up..............