Tucker's Challenge - need help setting up rules

[sonofzeal]

My gaming group has agreed on an odd challenge, at least in principal. We're still working out the specifics, and could use some advice making this a good challenge.

Each member of the group, in turn, runs a "Tucker's Kobolds" session. They have as many kobolds as they like, in a warren of their own devising, and have to kill the PCs as thoroughly as possible with as few Kobold casualties as they can manage. When all members have had their turn, victory is scored based on how many kobolds were lost during their run. Someone who kills the PCs with only 100 Kobold fatalities beats someone who lost 300 Kobolds, etc. Members handling the players have to kill as many Kobolds as they can before they go down, thus making their own run look better in comparison.



Rules we've agreed on so far....
- PCs will be ECL 7.
- No Kobold can be more than CR 1, nor can any Kobold have levels in a PC class.
- Kobolds cannot possess anything that CR 1 Kobolds could not make.
- All traps have to be build by CR 1 Kobolds.
- No "TO" (no character with arbitrarily high scores in any area, no making use of any known TO exploits, no builds that have commonly recognized names on these boards)



We'd like to limit "High-OP" too. DMM:Persist, Wightapocalype, and Lesser Planar Ally abuse should all be out... but it's harder to draw a line here. ToS ruleset, maybe? Anything else necessary to keep this challenge interesting? Any further limits on the Kobold side to keep the spirit of Tucker - such as limiting access to flaws and "Shape Soulmeld" or other pseudomagical feats? Any general thoughts on the challenge?

I await your feedback!

[candycorn]

Well, the key is a devious nature, and optimization of trap creation.

Let's see.

Kobold Expert 4 (CR 1)

Int stat: 14 (+2) -non elite array, 13 int, +1 from level 4.
Ranks in craft (trap) (+7)
Skill focus (Craft trap) (+3)
MW Tool (Craft trap) (+2)
Racial Bonus (Craft Trap) (+2)
Ok, so a +16.

This is because kobolds with levels in NPC classes have CR equal to their character level -3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm).

This allows the kobold to craft at DC 26 on a take 10, allowing for traps with a CR 6 to be used.

This gets you: Spiked Pit trap. DC 20 reflex save avoids.

Falling: 10d6.
At bottom, 1d4 spikes attack at +10 for 1d4+5 each.

Trap 2: Compacting room
Timed trigger, onset 4 rounds. Everything in a 10x10 room takes 12d6.

Trap 3: Let's make one.

Search DC 15 (CR -1)
Disable DC 35 (CR +2)
Miscellaneous: Liquid: (CR +5)
Onset Delay: 4 Rounds (CR -1)
Never Miss
Multiple targets (All targets in a 10x50 corridor)

Basically? 10x50 corridor, ceiling trapdoor at end. A switch activates when the door is closed, caving in the back entrance, and opening a floodgate from a nearby river. Kobolds trip a log trap to block down the closed trapdoor. Str DC 30 opens, or disable device DC 35 can close/jam the floodgate.

Otherwise, after 4 rounds, the corridor is filled, and anything in it begins drowning. There's a sealed drain, Disable DC 20 to open, but it drains slowly. If it's opened, add 1 to the onset delay. If water trap is jammed, it will drain the room in 2 rounds per round the water filled (max 10 rounds).

Important: Anything with a DC of 24-26 or lower can be crafted by a kobold expert, so this can result in every kobold with MW armor and weapons, alchemical items, and the like.

The traps, in this challenge, will murder an ECL 7 party.

[Runestar]

Just give that the ritual which grants them a 1st lv SLA? With 4HD (a kobold warrior4 or adept4 is cr1), I am sure they can quickly wear down a party with repeated castings of some damage spell like magic missile. Adepts can also cast scorching ray, so that's another source of damage.

[sonofzeal]

Let me be clear - I'm not asking how to WIN, I'm asking how to set up the rules of the challenge so it's fair and revolves around Tuckerness rather than sheer OP-fu. Editing my first post for clarity.

In fact, I'm deliberately trying NOT to read the posts made so far, so as not to give myself an unfair advantage. If you guys could delete the text there, I'd appreciate it.

[candycorn]

With Craft Trap result of 26, a enterprising group of kobolds could actually craft a mini-tippyverse down there.

EDIT: Impose a total gold restriction. Say, 250,000gp for the kobolds.

Enough for some real traps, and some equipment, but not enough to go too crazy.

[sonofzeal]

EDIT: Impose a total gold restriction. Say, 250,000gp for the kobolds.

Enough for some real traps, and some equipment, but not enough to go too crazy.
A gold restriction sounds like a good idea, but might get things headed in bad directions. It's just that 250k sounds like an awful lot, and could lead to some nastiness if someone got some real crafting going. If there was a way to make it "1k gp per zone" or somesuch, that might be better.

[Talesin]

I'd say add a gold limit like the above poster suggested and maybe give the PCs a condition to get out of the dungeon. You say you want them to see how many they can kill but why not make it a "You have to get to the end of the dungeon" and make it so it has to be a set distance away.

So you could say it is 300ft from one end of the dungeon to the other with the maximum pathlength across of say 600ft (so the person doesn't make it crazy long to get out), maximum of X rooms (or X doors or delays to get through), a gold limit in terms of things they can add to the dungeon and then all of the rules you've listed above. And there has to actually be a way out.

It might also be worth setting the first area you start in as a room that is common to all dungeons. So you start in a 20x20 room but as soon as you step through the door frame, you're targetable and can't return through it. Handwave it as some magical forcefield or whatever.

If someone set me this challenge as a PC, while mentioning it is a Tucker's Kobolds type situation, the last thing i'd want to do is going running through the traps. You've almost got more chance of survival (and killing more kobolds) by just staying still in the safest area you can find and using all your might to attack back. Yes you'll still lose but you'll take down more than if you start taking falling damage and the like.

Hope this helps

[stainboy]

With Craft Trap result of 26, a enterprising group of kobolds could actually craft a mini-tippyverse down there.

EDIT: Impose a total gold restriction. Say, 250,000gp for the kobolds.

Enough for some real traps, and some equipment, but not enough to go too crazy.

I'd cap individual expenditures too, or limit items available. 250k can buy a lot of Planar Binding scrolls.

You should probably straight-up ban animals and hirelings, just so it doesn't turn into Tucker's Warbeast Rhinoceroses.

[candycorn]

Items available are capped to "Things a non-cheese CR 1 kobold can make".

Bear in mind, many of the base CR 5-6 traps (easily makeable by these kobolds) cost more than 1000 gp.

That 100 foot spiked pit trap? Over 1000gp. And it's a listed entry in the DMG. Heck, several CR 2-3 traps are over 1000gp.

I'd say, 25,000gp per zone (traps), and a cap of encounter treasure for the kobolds (each gets average wealth of a CR 1 creature).

[Roc Ness]

... They have as many kobolds as they like...

Something needs to be done here. Having ((arbritratily high number of)) kobolds could simply mean, statistically, instant player death at no kobold casualty. You may need a system so that victory goes to the player with the least kobolds are used (not just the ones killed).

How about the score being: (Kobolds Used) + (Kobolds Dead). The player with the lowest score wins? So that a person who used 400 kobolds and lost 50 (Score 450) is defeated by a person who used 200 kobolds and lost 100 (Score 300), while a person who used 1000 kobolds and lost none (Score 1000) is defeated by both of the previous.

[candycorn]

Nah, I'd keep it arbitrary large numbers.

Limit the numbers at any one TIME. Say, no more than CR 4 in Kobolds at any one time.

Keeps things arbitrary. Also keeps PC teams from overpowering a small group, but still losing.

Such as?

I use 1 kobold. It dies. I win, with a score of 2.

If I did your method? I'd limit it to scoring teams where the party dies.

[Longcat]

Personally, I'd limit the Kobolds to the default Kobold race from the MM, otherwise people might be tempted to use the web excerpt version that's basically better at everything.

Also, for the love of Bob, ban Dragonwrought Kobolds.

[CTrees]

On the gold expenditures: every X gp=1 kobold. Spend 50X? That's +50 kobolds. It's an idea, anyway, though I have no idea what the gold equivalency should be for this challenge. I'm guessing a few thousand?

Also, what's the optimization level of the PCs allowed? Seems like it would be better to hide the sheets used, to avoid unfair advantages to the kobolds, but if you have one player using a natural spell druid while another is using a monk... you get the idea. Limits here are needed, even if you figure a way to bend in the ToS rules, or say "tier three only," etc.

[McToomin]

I don't have any relevant advice or anything, just wanted to say that I love this idea. Kobolds are my favorite race, so it's nice to know they'll be murdering some PC's who invaded their turf.

[Runestar]

Personally, I'd limit the Kobolds to the default Kobold race from the MM, otherwise people might be tempted to use the web excerpt version that's basically better at everything.

Also, for the love of Bob, ban Dragonwrought Kobolds.

What's the big deal about dragonwrought kobolds? They aren't really in a position to abuse the dragon type, and the benefits aren't really game-breaking. :smallconfused:

I would recommend letting them use the massed charge rules in PHB2 and swarmfighting, as a cheap way of pumping their attack bonus so some can at least hit the PCs. Here's a sample kobold soldier.

Kobold Warrior4 (cr1).
HP: 22 (4d8+4)
Attack: +7 (+4bab+2dex+1size)
AC: 23 (base10+7AC+2dex+2shield+1size+1NA)
Stats: Str7, Dex14, Con12, Int:10, Wis:9, Cha:8
Feats: Weapon finesse, Swarmfighting (complete warrior)?

Notes: Use dragonscale husk from dragon magic, that SLA-granting ritual from races of dragon

[Fouredged Sword]

I would stick to the dungeon length and let the total kobolds used effect the scoreing, but the player must place kobolds initialy and not metagame knowledge throughout the dungeon.

say the players have to traverse a dungeon that is no more than 1000ft x 1000ft, and the shortest path from start to finish is no more than 5000ft, and must be traversable by a medium creature and findable with a maximum of a DC 20 check.

Now give each player a grid to draw the map on septeratly. It's only 200X200 squares.

No encouter can be greater than CR 9 by the DMG CR stacking rules.

No item can be used that can be made with a CL greater than 4 or a check requirement greater than 20 (10+7ranks+3skillfocus) and no single kobolds can have wealth greater than 1/2 WBL for thier HD. (max 4th level) and the dungeon itself may not have gear (among all kobolds) and traps of greater than 250,000gp.

All Koboblds and traps used must be stated and placed before the dungeon is used.

The adventureres are to have pre set levels, but individual players may repick feats, spells, and gear per run to attempt to supprise the player playing Tucker.

Now make the scoreing work like this.

(Kobolds used)+(Kobolds killed)+(10xAdventureres reached goal)

[sonofzeal]

Other rules that occur to me...


- PCs could be communally built so it's the same PCs each time, making it more about the Kobolds.
- The warren could be finite but repeating (but the players can mutually agree that the PCs have "won" and the kobolds aren't going to kill them any time soon)
- Daily resources never recharge for either side.
- Healing wands are banned.




If we do communally built PCs, I think Fighter 7 and Rogue 7 are a given. I'm considering Warmage 7 as well, but what about the last spot? Bard 7 maybe?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The party should consist of mechanically strong characters who are intentionally not designed specifically for thwarting the kobold gauntlet. Tier 1-2 characters should either have an intentional shortcoming or be particularly strong in situations that aren't this one. Here's how I'd make the party:

Dwarf LG Fighter 6/ Exotic Weapon Master 1, EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Battle Hardened, EWM trick is Trip Attack.

Whisper Gnome CG Rogue 7, TWF, Weapon Finesse, Darkstalker.

Half-Elf NG Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 1, Sun and Healing domains, Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Augment Healing. Does not qualify for exalted status.

Elf LN Wizard (Abjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 4, Necromancy and Conjuration prohibited, Spell Focus: Abjuration, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Evocation, Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Magic Disruption.

[flabort]

I like the idea of a Tucker's Challenge.

Maybe a maximum CR of kobolds per distance along the shortest path? Say, for every 100 feet down the shortest path, "Tucker" is limited to CR 10?

Actually, that gives me an Idea. "Tucker"'s score is based on (shortest) path length and the net CR of kobolds lost. "Tucker" is allowed to build side paths, but the kobolds within count towards the CR used, while the side path fails to count towards CR allowed. With this, PC classes would be allowed, maybe.
And a Improved Kobold to CR ratio must be used. For example, for every net CR 3, one kobold with 4 NPC levels is allowed. For every net CR 15, 1 kobold with 1 PC level is allowed. "Tucker" may replace multiple kobolds with 1 PC class level with 1 kobold with the same number of levels as the number of kobolds he replaced.
There is a gold limit per trap, and only so much gold allowed per hundred feet for the shortest path. Let's put it at 20,000 gp per 100 ft, and 2,000 gp per trap. And finally, no "Encounter" (up to 40 foot room?) may be above CR 8, including both kobolds and traps.

So if the players entered a 600 foot warren, "Tucker" could use CR 60 of kobolds. So he populates it with 20 CR 1 "NPC class 4" kobolds, 2 CR 1 Kobold Clerics, 1 CR 2 Kobold Fighter 2, and 144 CR 1/4 vanilla kobolds. For a total of 167 kobolds. He makes a side path, approximately 100 feet long. He puts one of the clerics and 30 of the lesser CR 1/4 kobolds in the path, and decides not to loop it back around, but to have it dead end, although it does have archery holes into the shortest path, which are used to shoot the players through. He does not get extra kobolds for this path.
The players play really well. They pass the side path, and make it almost all the way to the treasure room, killing 90 of the vanilla kobolds, 16 of the NPC class kobolds, and one of the clerics (The other is in the side path). They manage to damage the fighter, but he isn't killed and they don't count him. The net CR of slain kobolds equals 90/4 + 16 + 1, or 39.5, which is not bad. Out of 60 CR allotted to the dungeon, this makes ALMOST 2/3s killed. Out of 1000 points, the players earn 658, and "Tucker" earns 342 points.
Three more groups of players then proceed to run the same warren, with the same characters. They earn 432, 763, and 547 points each. "Tucker" subtracts these from 1000, and derives his average score, 400. For that dungeon, "Tucker's" Minimum score is 237, and average 400, for 4 plays. (Obviously players committing suicide could bump up the average score, though).

Good idea? Bad idea? Totally abusable, but rather fun idea? Good, but numbers need drastic changing? Totally un-fun, un-balanced, and un-original? Tell me.

[Hazzardevil]

I have a suggestion for killing kobold's, but I'll spoiler it.


Have a pit filled with water, make the party fall in it and cover the top, kill party.

[Ashiel]

My gaming group has agreed on an odd challenge, at least in principal. We're still working out the specifics, and could use some advice making this a good challenge.

Each member of the group, in turn, runs a "Tucker's Kobolds" session. They have as many kobolds as they like, in a warren of their own devising, and have to kill the PCs as thoroughly as possible with as few Kobold casualties as they can manage. When all members have had their turn, victory is scored based on how many kobolds were lost during their run. Someone who kills the PCs with only 100 Kobold fatalities beats someone who lost 300 Kobolds, etc. Members handling the players have to kill as many Kobolds as they can before they go down, thus making their own run look better in comparison.



Rules we've agreed on so far....
- PCs will be ECL 7.
- No Kobold can be more than CR 1, nor can any Kobold have levels in a PC class.
- Kobolds cannot possess anything that CR 1 Kobolds could not make.
- All traps have to be build by CR 1 Kobolds.
- No "TO" (no character with arbitrarily high scores in any area, no making use of any known TO exploits, no builds that have commonly recognized names on these boards)



We'd like to limit "High-OP" too. DMM:Persist, Wightapocalype, and Lesser Planar Ally abuse should all be out... but it's harder to draw a line here. ToS ruleset, maybe? Anything else necessary to keep this challenge interesting? Any further limits on the Kobold side to keep the spirit of Tucker - such as limiting access to flaws and "Shape Soulmeld" or other pseudomagical feats? Any general thoughts on the challenge?

I await your feedback!

Not a problem. Especially if you're talking about Pathfinder kobolds who begin at CR 1/4. But even if not, a kobold warren is basically worse than the gates to hell, because literally everything will try to kill you, and it's going to fight dirty and cheat to do it.

Here are some things that every kobold warren should have.

Tight spaces (see below).
Traps in inconvenient places (see below).
Tiny tunnels (see below).
Kobolds who fight dirty (see below).
Terrain that makes AoEs suck (see below).
The occasional special kobolds.


All of this junk can be done in core and it's just mean. In fact, your group will probably give you props for not bothering to go outside of core to rail a bunch of ECL 7 characters with kobolds. Here's a brief strategy guide for setting up a terrifying kobold warren.

Tights Spaces: Kobolds are small creatures so your typical kobold den is probably very uncomfortable for most races. Their tunnels are likely small to medium sized at best (IE - 5ft corridors, low ceilings, etc). Medium sized creatures moving through such tunnels must squeeze. Squeezing inflicts a -4 penalty to attack rolls and AC. It also forces groups to walk single file through the kobold dungeons. That means there will be no flanking for the party without summoned monsters or similar, and even then they will be forced to deal with summons that can fit inside the tunnels.

Traps in Inconvenient Places: Kobolds are small and light. Traps set with weight triggers would mean kobolds can happily skip across pressure plates which will trigger when a medium size creature (or a small creature with a heavy load) stumbles across them. This gives the kobolds a terrain advantage since they can move about with impunity while the party has to deal with traps.

Couple this with awkward traps such as a 10 ft x 10 ft pit trap in a 10 ft x 10 ft room. So if the party has to try and get across the pit trap if the survive it (CR 1 pit trap is enough to cause them some serious grief). Due to the tight spaces leaping across is not an easy prospect. For added pain, drop a swarm or something in the pit so that anyone who falls in gets chewed up by poisonous spiders.

Finally, let the kobolds work in conjunction with their traps. If a tunnel has a surprise pit trap, let a kobold or two stand behind a couple of barrels of oil and shoot at the party from behind the cover with their heavy crossbows. Make it look good too. Put them about 60 ft from where the party can see them. The moment the warrior charges them they set off the trap a short way in and falls into a pit. Then the kobolds can push the barrels of oil into the pit, toss a torch or tindertwig inside, and flee. Now the tunnels fill with smoke and the smell of burning barbarian, hampering vision, causing suffocation, and the barbarian has to climb out of the pit at a reduced speed and cannot take 10 'cause he's on fire.

Tiny Tunnels: While kobolds tunnels are small because kobolds are, they can easily rig up a series of tunnels that look kind of like ventilation ducts. The true purpose of these terrible tunnels is to allow the kobolds to quickly escape into the tunnels. Being small they can accept the squeezing penalties and move through honeycomb tunnels that surround the main tunnel the party must go through. Thus allowing the kobolds to continually pester and flee. Any small character who is stupid enough to follow them into the tunnel will have to deal with being outnumbered and on their terms.

This is even worse if you use the Small Build for kobolds from the Races of the Dragon book since then kobolds are treated as tiny size whenever it would benefit them, allowing them to completely ignore all the penalties for moving through such tiny tunnels, while even halflings and the like would be in for a tight squeeze.

Terrain Makes AoEs Suck: If you recall the original tucker's kobolds, the party's wizard couldn't use fireball because in the tight spaces he would BBQ the group as well. Same principle applies. Make tunnels winding so that the party has to keep twisting and turning to snake through the passages. Aiming spells and AoEs will be a nightmare like this, and pretty much forces invaders to deal with the kobolds one on one. No dropping black tentacles, glitterdust, grease, stinking cloud, or sleet storm without heavily screwing up your party as well as the kobolds. This goes for stuff like fireball and lightning bolt as well, since your wizard would assuredly fry some allies if he's tucked safely in the middle of the party.

The squeezing rules combined with soft cover provided by the allies in front and behind the wizard also makes using rays a nightmare. Scorching ray isn't so very impressive when you have a -4 to hit due to squeezing, a -4 from firing into melee, and a -4 for firing past soft cover, against a small-sized creature with a dexterity bonus.

Kobolds Fight Dirty: Kobolds are mean and cowardly. They will happily avoid melee combat with their enemies and use things like murder holes in the walls, ceiling, or even floor to attack their enemies from. Likewise, kobolds should favor alchemical items. Kobolds with point blank shot as their first feat inflict 1d6+1 points of fire damage as a ranged touch attack and 1 point of splash damage. If four kobolds hits a single foe (preferably someone in heavy armor) with alchemist fire, they would suffer 4d6+4 fire damage immediately and another 4d6 fire damage on the following round. Acid and other alchemical goodies are likewise pretty mean when used in the same way.

Kobolds can make traps of their own too. If the party is traveling through some tunnels, the kobold can lock the party into the tunnel with wooden or stone sliding walls (the walls come out of the walls forming a box), then open a latch in the ceiling and dump some barrels of spiders into the now tight room. Now you have a 5ft wide room about 20 ft long filled with spider swarms and a very upset party.

Don't forget kobolds have darkvision which means kobold tunnels should be pitch black at all times. Any light brought into the tunnels will assuredly lose the party the element of surprise as the light can be seen in the darkness from much further away. Don't forget that the walls, air ducts, and murder holes can allow kobolds to see the party while making Stealth checks due to cover or concealment.

Special Kobolds: Kobolds come in all varieties. Many of them can be terrifying to a group of PCs. In Pathfinder, I'm fond of kobold NPCs who have levels in warrior or expert who take levels in the Assassin prestige class and the Ability Focus (Death Attack) feat of course. Drink a potion of invisibility or anything that grants cover or concealment so the assassin can stalk the party. When they least expect it (possibly while trying to get the barbarian out of the burning pit) the assassin pops the PC in the back with a death attack. Double points if you make the death attack with an alchemical item or some other touch-attack such as an acid splash cantrip (so the target's AC is something like 6 counting flat footed, touch AC, and squeezing penalties). Now the PC must make a DC 16-17 saving throw or die. Also the assassin will probably be CR 5 at the most due to NPC classes being its base.

Kobold sorcerers are also bad. Have kobold sorcerers stalk the party while invisible a keep casting summon swarm (spiders) at the worst possible time. Or occasionally use a wand of stinking cloud or similar. A kobold sorcerer or wizard with stinking cloud and a kobold cleric with animate dead can be a hell of a fight since the undead can mob the party while they're stuck nauseated in the tunnels with no where to go. No standard-actions for the party, the skeletons are immune, and the party cannot easily escape the stinking cloud tunnels.

Note: Do to your particular request for no CR 2 or higher kobolds, and no kobolds with PC classes, please look at the following kobold options with extra interest.

Kobold adepts can cast bless on their allies, granting a +1 to hit to all the kobolds for a minute. They can also use wands of spells like lightning bolt. A single CR 1 kobold adept (about 4 levels of adept) with a wand of lightning bolt with a couple of charges can surprise a party pretty bad when a 5d6 lightning bolt is getting tossed down a 5ft wide tunnel with them in it (oh snap, everyone's right in a line, so hitting them will be easy).

Spells such as obscuring mist or alchemical smokesticks can be used to create thick clouds which obscure vision. As such they can make excellent tools for kobolds to come ninja the party in the night. And by ninja, I mean lure them them into a clouded room that's filled with terrible traps (pits, poisoned darts, swinging axes, spikes, etc).

=============

This should get your started. And I know the question that is one everyone's mind. Yes, I am serious, and yes I am a Bastard-DM(TM), and my players love me for it. :smallbiggrin:

PS: Check out my Tucker's Kobolds but with Goblins (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/helpMeWithTuckersKoboldsScenario&page=1#8) post as well.

EDIT: For those curious, I ran a kobold dungeon where a group of 4 1st level kobold warriors forced a party of 4-6 players back out of the dungeon about 3 times before the party came back and defeated them. In addition, they killed or severely wounded a PC per adventure.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The non-associated class levels rules are sort of borked. Either get a rule in there that says a level 4 kobold NPC is greater than CR 1, or use level 4 kobold NPCs. I figure you know this much, so it's not really an unfair advantage.

[flabort]

The non-associated class levels rules are sort of borked. Either get a rule in there that says a level 4 kobold NPC is greater than CR 1, or use level 4 kobold NPCs. I figure you know this much, so it's not really an unfair advantage.

Which is more powerful? 4 vanilla kobolds (CR 1 for the encounter), or a CR 1 4th level expert kobold?
In both cases there's 4 HD, and the CR is 1. But 4 kobolds can maneuver around like nobodies business. This makes them... slightly better than the Expert, but not enough to warrant a higher CR.

Also, a bit cheesy, but it only states kobolds with NPC levels have CR class level -3. It never mentions whether if they have PC class levels as well, so one could argue that by RAW, a Kobold Expert 1/Rogue 3 is CR 1. :smalleek: This is TO, though :smallsigh:, and definitely NOT allowed. :smallfrown: Especially for a competition or challenge like this :smallannoyed:


Also, if the rules get fleshed out enough, I'd love to play a PbP Tucker's Challenge. Everyone who enters creates a character, and a Warren. They take turns beating eachother's warrens, using the same character (No xp earned transfers between, though) for each warren. The team would change a little for each warren, because one of the characters will not be in the party, it's player is the DM of that warren.
No randomized loot, though. Everything should be preplanned.
And if the rules get standardized, Someone could save their warren for a later PbP with a different group. (So, they would post interest, and say their warren got such-and-such points in <link> against <users>, averaging so-and-so points. Or that it's their first Tucker's Challenge)

[Seffbasilisk]

Have a multiplier at the end. Where if the PCs make it out aside, their score is multiplied by four or something.

This keeps them from just going glass-cannon blasters and nuking the hell out of hordes and dying.

[Coidzor]

...What's the requirement on being able to make magical traps again?

We've got level 4 Adepts and Magewrights here.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

*snip*No individual Kobold can be greater than CR 1, so I'd say four kobold adept 4s beat four SRD kobolds.

[flabort]

No individual Kobold can be greater than CR 1, so I'd say four kobold adept 4s beat four SRD kobolds.

:smallconfused:
...The point is whether four SRD kobolds beat one Kobold adept 4. Both sides of that are CR 1.

@ V: Yeah, that's about right. That or more.

[Coidzor]

:smallconfused:
...The point is whether four SRD kobolds beat one Kobold adept 4. Both sides of that are CR 1.

No, the point is whether 1 Kobold Adept 4 or 4 SRD Kobolds could cause a APL 1 party to expend around 15% or so of its daily resources.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Rules we've agreed on so far....
- PCs will be ECL 7.
- No Kobold can be more than CR 1, nor can any Kobold have levels in a PC class.
- Kobolds cannot possess anything that CR 1 Kobolds could not make.
- All traps have to be build by CR 1 Kobolds.
- No "TO" (no character with arbitrarily high scores in any area, no making use of any known TO exploits, no builds that have commonly recognized names on these boards)The way I'm reading this, the encounter isn't limited to CR 1. It's just that no particular Kobold can exceed CR 1. So theoretically you could be facing hundreds or thousands of Kobolds all at once. The point that four standard kobolds may be more challenging than one kobold adept 4 is moot; the only restriction as of now is per-kobold, so there's no reason not to make all of your kobolds have four NPC levels other than style or some other racial modification that negates your doing so.

[flabort]

Well, it seems we've come close to a CR cap per encounter, but no one can seem to agree on the specific cap, or the definition/bounds of "Encounter".

I say for every 50x50 space (one room or divided into several) is an "Encounter", and the CR cap should be 8 (one more than the player's levels).

And there should be limits in place that encourage "Tucker" to place multiple lower CR encounters and save up for that devastating CR 8 encounter in advantageous terrain for the kobolds.

But once we "Agree" on a cap like that, that should solve the "10,000,000 kobold Adepts in one room" problem.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's going to require a very legalistic definition of 'encounter,' considering the hit and run tactics commonplace with this scheme. That said, if you can get a definition up and running, I'd say a mix of normal kobolds and adept 4s would be good, with an arbitrary number of experts and magewrights sticking to the back of the cave responsible for the traps upon traps upon traps. That way (assuming they're all attacking from arrow slits and running around to new entries of attack) it's hard to target the kobold chucking scorching rays instead of the annoying peltasts.

[sonofzeal]

Would the challenge still be reasonable if we took out NPC class levels entirely, and forced it to be done by vanilla Kobolds?

[Coidzor]

Would the challenge still be reasonable if we took out NPC class levels entirely, and forced it to be done by vanilla Kobolds?

Well, it'd be less high-powered, but it's still a challenge and thought exercise about doing more with less.

[sonofzeal]

Let's go with that then. Vanilla Kobolds all around.


Let's talk PCs. Biffoniacus's suggestions are good builds, but I don't even own all the sourcebooks necessary for that (PGtF for Morninglord specifically), and if we're going to be foisting these characters off on other players then it's pretty important those other players know how to play them. As such, I think sticking to Core+Completes is probably a good idea. We have and use ToB though, so Martial Study should be okay on the Fighter-type.

Any other suggestions for the builds, with simplicity and archetypal adherence and relative mutual parity in mind?

[Coidzor]

What are the main restrictions? Do we just want an all T3 party?

[sonofzeal]

What are the main restrictions? Do we just want an all T3 party?
- They must be playable to people only really familiar with Core (we have other books, but there's one or two members of our group who've never really explored them)

- They should fit the standard Warrior/Healer/Mage/Thief archetypes

- None of them should completely overshadow the rest of the team.

[candycorn]

Fighter:
Orc Barbarian 7.
32 PB: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 8
+1 Str (Level 4)
After Racial: Str 22(24), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)

+1 Greatsword, +2 Gloves of Strength

Thief:
Halfling Rogue 7
32 PB: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
+1 Dex (Level 4)
After Racial: Str 11, Dex 20(22), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Search)
Skills: Max ranks in search, disable device, Open Lock, hide, move silently, UMD, spot, listen, climb, jump.
+1 Longbow, +2 dex item

[flabort]

how many characters? 3? 4? 5? 27?

[Coidzor]

- They must be playable to people only really familiar with Core (we have other books, but there's one or two members of our group who've never really explored them)

- They should fit the standard Warrior/Healer/Mage/Thief archetypes

- None of them should completely overshadow the rest of the team.

Oh. Is this supposed to be a challenge for the kobolds or for the players? :smallconfused:

If all you want is a heal ***** cleric that doesn't contribute (as suggested by your banning of healing items), you might as well just give them X amount of healing for streamlining the process.

[flabort]

Sorta both. It's a two-sided challenge. On one side, one player creates the kobold's dungeon, and on the other, the rest of the players use a standardized team to try and get as far into the dungeon as possible.
And the players take turns being "Tucker", the guy who makes the dungeon.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Morninglord level in that Cleric build isn't necessary, it's just that most characters who use that build would be going for a 20th level Cleric 5/ Morninglord 10/ Radiant Servant 5, and the Radiant Servant levels should be taken as early as possible. A Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 1 with everything else the same would be just fine.

[Coidzor]

Sorta both. It's a two-sided challenge. On one side, one player creates the kobold's dungeon, and on the other, the rest of the players use a standardized team to try and get as far into the dungeon as possible.
And the players take turns being "Tucker", the guy who makes the dungeon.

It looks kinda one-sided if the only player allowed to think is the wizard, which is what restricting all of the other PCs to core-mentality and hobbling them by clinging to the archetypes means.

All the kobolds have to do is psyche out the wizard into wasting his spells and then rocks fall, because the party is now defenseless against anything but walking up to them and trying to poke them with sticks.

[Zaq]

Do the PCs have a goal beyond "kill the kobolds"? Maybe some kind of flag to capture, with appropriate rules in place to make sure that they have to actually capture the damn thing and not just find some spell to do it automatically?

[flabort]

You can just make the standardized characters without access to any teleportation spells.
But I was under the assumption there would be a small treasure at the end, but "Kill all the kobolds" would be the main point.

[sonofzeal]

how many characters? 3? 4? 5? 27?
Four.


The Morninglord level in that Cleric build isn't necessary, it's just that most characters who use that build would be going for a 20th level Cleric 5/ Morninglord 10/ Radiant Servant 5, and the Radiant Servant levels should be taken as early as possible. A Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 1 with everything else the same would be just fine.
Point.



It looks kinda one-sided if the only player allowed to think is the wizard, which is what restricting all of the other PCs to core-mentality and hobbling them by clinging to the archetypes means.

All the kobolds have to do is psyche out the wizard into wasting his spells and then rocks fall, because the party is now defenseless against anything but walking up to them and trying to poke them with sticks.
If only the Wizard is thinking, then you clearly haven't met any Rogues worth their salt.

I completely understand not liking archetypes, but we're looking for a totally generic party. What would a totally generic nominally-optimized lvl7 party look like?