Geomancer Optimized as a Wiz/Fig

[Malhavoc_Black]

It's some time I'm tinkering with a Geomancer build.. most people on the web think this PrC is not particularly strong.. and that's probably true, but I think I've found a build that at least clearly outshines any other Wizard/Fighter build.

The build just uses core feats and items from 3.0, nothing too fancy or exotic... I think I've found a very nice build, but I'm posting this not to show off anything, but to get feedback and suggestions on how to improve it.



Pro of the build:
Casting in full armor with no spell failure
Better caster level than an average W/F (at 17th it's 14 c.l, even higher in certain terrains thanks to leylines)
A huge amount of attacks (3 swords attacks + 4 natural attacks at full BAB)
Divine might lets you add up to 10 points of damage to each of your attacks (improving the otherwise low damage of natural attacks), that's why sorcerer was prefered instead of wizard
A vast amount of interesting additional perks, like wolf automatic trip and blindsight
Can convert sorcerer slots into cure light/medium wound (I fear that caster level is cleric's, not sorcerer's, and only cleric spells actually known, so no more than 2d8+4..but that's not bad to get back in shape after a fight)
Very high spell DCs, cause Charisma is your defining abilities (thanks to divine might putting your charisma into attacks)

Cons of the build:
Slightly less HP (2d6 are a bit less than d4+d10: around 1 less HP every two levels)
This builds shines from level 12/13th onwards, when it lets you cast every spell you have in full armor, and you get your first natural attacks. Before that it's quite bad. Excellent for high-level campaigns then.
A bit less skill points than a Fighter / Wizard due to the lower int, but Geomancers get 4 + int, and you are human too, so it's not that bad after all

Here's the build:

Human
Familiar: Toad (for the +2 Con)
Cleric Domains:
Healing (+1 healing spells)
War (Sword Proficiency + Weapon Focus)

Hypotetical Stats array (just for reference)

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Build level by level (C stands for cleric, S for Sorcerer and G for Geomancer)
Abilities in [] are feats, those in {} are Geomancer's abilities (X.Y stands for Yth drift from those of Xth level)

1 C [Power Attack][Divine Might]
2 C
3 C [Spell Penetration]
4 S (+1Cha)
5 S
6 S [Greater Spell Penetration]
7 S
8 G (+1Cha)
9 G [Empower Spell]
10 G {2.9: lowlight vision}
11 G {2.4: +5 feet movement}
12 G [Multiattack] (+1Cha) {3.9: bite d6} ---Sorcerer's polymorph lets you qualify for this before you get 3 "real" natural attacks
13 G {3.10: 2xclaws d3}
14 G {4.1 stinger: 2d4}
15 G [Improved Multiattack] {4.2: Wolf trip}
16 G (+1Cha) {5.2: Gore d8}
17 G {5.10: Blindsight}

Now you have:
BAB: 11/6/1 (natural attacks at full BAB thanks to improved multiattack)
Base Saves: +12 / +5 / +12
HD: 3d8 + 4d4 + 10d6 (with a +6 Con item it would be an average of 178 HP)

Attacks:
Sword (base +12/+7/+2 thanks to weapon focus) d8+Str
claw d3 + Str/2
bite d6 + Str/2
stinger 2d4 + Str/2
Gore d8 + Str/2

Let's make an example: +6 ability items on strength and Charisma, +4 Tome on Charisma, chained greater magic weapon on swords and natural weapons (using metamagic rod) or some monk's amulet to improve natural attacks, and divine might activated:

Sword +23/+18/+13, d8+21 (plus maybe some d6s from elemental abilities)
claw +22, d3+18
bite +22, d6+18
stinger +22, 2d4+18
Gore +22 d8+18


Nice perks:
Casts in full armour without arcane failure
7th level spells
Thanks to spell penetration feats, spell resistances are as "easy" to pass as for an average wizard of the same level
7 attacks, 5 of which at full BAB
Each natural attack gives you a free trip attempt without possibility of being tripped back in case of failure
Blindsight (very good together with Cleric's Darkness spell)
Ability to convert any sorcerer slot into a d8+4 or 2d8+4 cure spell
+3 caster level in chosen enviroment (or +1 in three different ones)
Can use Charisma as defining ability for the few offensive Cleric spells he casts (such as Hold Person, Sanctuary, Hide from Undead)



And here a selection of spell known I considered valuable. For fighting in melee spells such as shield, mirror image, fire shield, bigby's interposing hand and contingency are particularly worth it. There rest are good complements to take enemies from afar or kill them quickly with save or die spells. Note that you can Empower Fire shield for a really big damage payback

1) 5
Shield
Magic Missile
Feather Fall
Protection from Evil
Enlarge

2) 5
Protection from Arrows
Mirror Image
Alter Self
Web
Control Undead

3) 4
Protection from Elements
Vampiric Touch
Fireball
Greater Magic Weapon

4) 4
Fire Shield
Improved Invisibility
Polymorph Self
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

5) 3
Bigby's Interposing Hand
Teleport
Hold Monster

6) 2
Disintegrate
Contingency / Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (I LOVE this spell, it's basically free quickened spells)

7) 1
Delayed Blast Fireball / Limited Wish








..and so that's it. Later levels should be from some other PrC in the Wizard/Fighter theme.. maybe one level of Paladin for a huge +10 to saves could also be worth it, even if that would mean losing one caster level.

[dextercorvia]

It's some time I'm tinkering with a Geomancer build.. most people on the web think this PrC is not particularly strong.. and that's probably true, but I think I've found a build that at least clearly outshines any other Wizard/Fighter build.

The build just uses core feats and items from 3.0, nothing too fancy or exotic... I think I've found a very nice build, but I'm posting this not to show off anything, but to get feedback and suggestions on how to improve it.


Pro of the build:
Casting in full armor with no spell failure
Better caster level than an average W/F (at 17th it's 14 c.l, even higher in certain terrains thanks to leylines)
A huge amount of attacks (3 swords attacks + 4 natural attacks at full BAB)
Divine might lets you add up to 10 points of damage to each of your attacks (improving the otherwise low damage of natural attacks), that's why sorcerer was prefered instead of wizard


I'm not sure why you say this. Standard Sorcadin blows this out of the water. The pathetic core Ranger1/Wizard6/EldritchKnight10 gish build has better Casting level and BAB. That's 8th level spells and BAB+14

It isn't that the PrC is bad, it is that the three levels sunk into cleric don't do much for you, and make any of the perceived benefits not worth it. There are much better ways to gain natural attacks. Start as a Kobold for 3 (a feat gets you a 4th), Polymorph (as you mentioned), Dip Totemist, Shape Soulmeld, Deepspawn, Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of Enlightement (Hunger Domain).

Also, you have some errors. You can't attack with a claw if it is holding a sword. GMW doesn't work on Natural Weapons.

You are a gish Sorcerer, why do you have Fireball and Disintegrate and Delayed Blast Fireball on you list of spells known. Some DD is fine, but consider your other options. Fire Shield is a waste. There are more, but when you play a Sorcerer, you need to ask questions like, Does this spell fill more than one niche? Does any other spell I already know replicate this even in part? Am I likely to need this every day, hopefully more than once? Will this spell remain relevant as I level? As a gish, you need to focus on spells that buff offense and defense. Lobbing a Fireball or dropping a Black Tentacles is fine, and sometimes the right decision, but if you are relying on casting alone to end a battle, then you have wasted resources to make yourself good at fighting. Synergize.

Consider the feat Arcane Strike. You sacrifice a slot to add damage to every natural attack. Forget about the sword. Take Improve Unarmed Strike. Now your iteratives are also natural attacks.

[vampire2948]

Toads don't give you +2 con, they give you +3 HP [equivalent of the toughness feat].

[Tyndmyr]

It's some time I'm tinkering with a Geomancer build.. most people on the web think this PrC is not particularly strong.. and that's probably true, but I think I've found a build that at least clearly outshines any other Wizard/Fighter build.

Or...I could take one level of fighter, and some levels of wizard and go Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion and crush this?

Note that the level of fighter was only so that it would technically still be a wizard/fighter build. I much prefer me the militia feat and/or Human Paragon.

I don't get why this is...good.

[Malhavoc_Black]

Probably I've said that too much between the lines, so it's better if I state that clearer: we play with 3.0 rules (which among other things, still gives the +2 Con Toad), and the content available is just that from:

- Player's Handbook
- Dungeon Master
- Tome and Blood
- Defenders of the Faith
- Song and Silence
- Sword and Fist

I'm sure that dipping the hands into other books you can probably come out much ahead of this.. things like Ur-Priest for example are totally uber and would probably end up being far more powerful. I don't know of those Dip Totemist, Shape Soulmeld, Deepspawn and Planar Touchstone things you wrote.. I'd like to get them in, but my GM simply does not accept more than the above ;)

Arcane Strike, for example, is a feat I know and that would be very good here, but it's just out for our group (besides, I think it powers up one weapon alone, not every natural attack, which wouldn't make it incredibly strong anyway).


I'm more interestend instead in what you say about my rules errors with swords and natural attacks... I was not sure of that infact and I browsed the internet quite a bit, and found that I should be able to use my normal iterative weapon attacks, and then all my natural attacks at -5 as secondary (claw would be only left one of course, as right one is holding the sword). Multiattack and imp. multiattack of course should then lower the malus. Am I wrong in saying that I can use a crafted weapon together with natural weapons in this way? Which is the correct ruling then? And what exactly happens if I put Improve Unarmed Strike into the mix?


As for spells.. I would have prefered some more combat-oriented spells, really i would have. But I just can't find any spell that powers up physical combat apart those I've listed (btw, fire shield is incredibly strong, especially for a low hp melee guy who wants monsters to avoid hitting at him). Do you know some nice melee spell I missed?

[Tyndmyr]

So, I'll still take a whopping one level of fighter, nine levels of wizard, and ten levels of Eldritch Knight. Core only, and dead simple to do.

I have 18/20 wizard casting, so unlike you, I get ninth level spells.

Also, I have 15/20 BaB. So, I'm a lot better at actually hitting things.

No feats are taken up by prereqs, but I do get a bonus feat from EK.

This isn't even as good as a sorcadin, but it's a lot better of a gish.

[dextercorvia]

Mentioning that you were playing 3.0 would have been helpful, those feats are all from 3.5 sources (to the best of my memory).

I missed your bite attack and thought you were trying to use both claws, you are okay there. Still, if you replace your sword with regular unarmed strikes you will get full iteratives and all five of your natural attacks.

Your options are more limited, but Tyndmyr's suggestion is still a better gish in your limited rule sources. Gaining that many natural attacks on your standard form isn't worth the investment if you can just polymorph into a hydra for 12 attacks.

You can improve it slightly by going Fighter1/Wizard6/EldritchKnight4/SacredExorcist3/EldritchKnight+6.

That gets you 18th level casting and BAB+16 for full iteratives. You also get Turning if you really like Divine Might -- and you can do this on a Sorcerer base if you would prefer, still getting nines.

[Malhavoc_Black]

Well, indeed such builds would have a slightly higher BAB, and get to 9th level spells, however there are things I would happly trade the above for:

- casting in full armor, which still seems a huge thing worth getting

- having 3/4 more attacks, which still seems a huge thing worth getting too. I see what you say about using polymorph to get more attacks.. but in the past we used to have too many polymoprh abuses, and GM just does not let us use it to gain more attack, just for physical abilities (and it's a LOT already, I agree with him)

- a good amount of nice perks like auto-trip and blindsight


..but back to the rules, you were suggesting about getting improved unarmed strike, but I'm not sure I go the reasoning behind it: what's the gain of trading 3 sword attacks with three punches? Or you intend I could claim I'm kicking or something like that with unarmed strikes, and still get both claws attacks (isn't this just for monks?) ..Or I'm still missing something about the multiattack rules? Thanks!

[AMFV]

Well, indeed such builds would have a slightly higher BAB, and get to 9th level spells, however there are things I would happly trade the above for:

- casting in full armor, which still seems a huge thing worth getting

- having 3/4 more attacks, which still seems a huge thing worth getting too. I see what you say about using polymorph to get more attacks.. but in the past we used to have too many polymoprh abuses, and GM just does not let us use it to gain more attack, just for physical abilities (and it's a LOT already, I agree with him)

- a good amount of nice perks like auto-trip and blindsight


..but back to the rules, you were suggesting about getting improved unarmed strike, but I'm not sure I go the reasoning behind it: what's the gain of trading 3 sword attacks with three punches? Or you intend I could claim I'm kicking or something like that with unarmed strikes, and still get both claws attacks (isn't this just for monks?) ..Or I'm still missing something about the multiattack rules? Thanks!

If race isn't a huge issue being a dwarf and going Runesmith will get you full armor casting for free without losing the caster levels. It's prereqs are ridiculously easy as well.

The issue with the perks is that they are more easily replicated with spells. If you were wanting Geomancer for the specific flavor then that would be different, but for straight mechanical benefit, Wizard/Runesmith or in fact Wizard 20 is far better.

[Flickerdart]

Casting in full armour is a joke - there are several ways of getting ASF 0% heavy armours, and other ways of getting better armour AC modifiers than actual armour would grant you.

[dextercorvia]

Getting the extra attacks is no big deal, even in 3.0. Two levels of Dragon Disciple gives you 2 claws and a bite. You could fit that in to the above build (sorcerer variant) and still get 8ths.