Core Martial Melee Build [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:49 AM

A friend of mine is putting together a DnD group based off some old ADND adventure I've never heard of, hes converting it to 3.5 etc.

But, he wants to stick to the core rulebooks.

Now I've been wanting to play a martial character for a while now, so I was gonna try and convince him to let me play a warblade. Problem is he googled warblade, found like, 5 different crazy optimization builds and seems against the idea. He also hasn't really looked at tome of battle, which is fair enough, he has a pretty taxing job.

Anyway. Because of this I wanna build a good martial character, but one that wont suck later on. All from core.

I'm thinking going a spiked chain fighter, getting a whole bunch of combat control feats and Attacks of Opportunity up the ass, just tripping and disarming everywhere. But aside from that, I have no idea of any good feat/class combinations. I WOULD like a dip into barbarian for uncanny dodge if possible, because I can see the DM pulling alot of suprise stuff on us. Infact, I might start with barbarian, see if i can get the DM to let me let me take the lion totem.

Fenryr

2011-09-09, 10:02 AM

Seerow

2011-09-09, 10:03 AM

Are you defining Core as PHB+DMG, or SRD?

Crake

2011-09-09, 10:07 AM

Are you defining Core as PHB+DMG, or SRD?

just phb and dmg

Anything out of that I need to ask for approval, but I've been painted as "that guy" by my friends, so anything I ask for is probably gonna be denied

Seerow

2011-09-09, 10:17 AM

just phb and dmg

Anything out of that I need to ask for approval, but I've been painted as "that guy" by my friends, so anything I ask for is probably gonna be denied

In that case, good luck getting Lion Totem, much less Spirit Lion Totem (the one you actually want, that is in Complete Champion iirc).

Honestly under those circumstances I'd go cleric or druid for a melee build. A fighter isn't going to have enough feats to make it worthwhile to have past level 4 to 6 or so. There's just not enough material and you end up with **** like weapon focus to fill the gaps. Something like Fighter4/Barbarian16 is probably the best you'll get.

magwaaf

2011-09-09, 10:17 AM

This may work. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) Maybe too optimized for some DMs but still Core only.

You should insist on Warblade but instead of the complete ToB, the article in the Wizard's web. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

i agree tome of battle should be core lol. warblades and swordsages are **** tardedly good and i love playing them

if you wanna play a good melee character i suggest playing a ranger or a druid. both give you an animal companion, a spell list, and class abilities that aren't just fighter feats

Crake

2011-09-09, 10:23 AM

In that case, good luck getting Lion Totem, much less Spirit Lion Totem (the one you actually want, that is in Complete Champion iirc).

Honestly under those circumstances I'd go cleric or druid for a melee build. A fighter isn't going to have enough feats to make it worthwhile to have past level 4 to 6 or so. There's just not enough material and you end up with **** like weapon focus to fill the gaps. Something like Fighter4/Barbarian16 is probably the best you'll get.

yeah, im not expecting it

The horizon tripper build looks interesting, i may actually play something like that, although tweak it to my tastes

Killer Angel

2011-09-09, 10:37 AM

The horizon tripper build looks interesting, i may actually play something like that, although tweak it to my tastes

I've tried it, and definitely recommend it. Fun to play, nice utilities, good versatility ooc and with sufficient weight in combat.
Edit: must be said that the ranger is one of my favourite classes.

Seerow

2011-09-09, 10:41 AM

yeah, im not expecting it

The horizon tripper build looks interesting, i may actually play something like that, although tweak it to my tastes

If you go that route, be aware the dimension door is as per the spell. So the teleport is a standard action, and ends your turn when you take it. It's not as useful as it sounds at first glance and the person who posted the build neglected to mention it. It is definitely nice for getting places where you're not meant to be, but as general in combat mobility, it leaves a lot to be desired.

monkey3

2011-09-09, 10:46 AM

I am planning on trying the following for when my DM is going to go core-only:

Wood Elf ranger1/barb1/fighter2/bard1/dragonDeciple10

Wood elf get +2 str, dragonDeciple gets 8 str (I think from memory), and wings. Just throw everything in str, grab a greatsword and charge into battle.

Last 5 can be anything you want, though I think you may be stuck with ranger because of wood elf

Crake

2011-09-09, 12:37 PM

Greenish

2011-09-09, 12:50 PM

if you dont mind me asking, why go fighter 2 instead of barbarian 2, i figure uncanny dodge is much better than a feat?Depends on the feat. Uncanny Dodge is very situational, and rather minor even when it works. Unless your DM is very fond of using Sneak Attackers, of course.

Person_Man

2011-09-09, 02:44 PM

Ok, so I'm assuming that you know that the strongest core only melee options are Druid, Cleric, Wizard, and Sorcerer, who heavily use buff and battlefield control spells - but don't want to play a caster.

So my suggestion is Halfling Paladin 20. A Small character can ride his Medium Special Mount everywhere, giving him a big mobility advantage (and hit point defensive advantage, if your enemies choose to split their attacks between your Mount and you). At level 6 you can take the Leadership feat and replace your war pony with something much more powerful - up to and including a Dragon at higher levels - the rules for doing this are in the DMG (but not the SRD, oddly enough). Mounted Combat + Ride by Attack + Spirited Charge + Power Attack + occasional Smite Evil + your buff spells with a lance that you wield two handed is the highest damage melee combo available in core. Ride by Attack in general is a very good tactic to use. Plus a lance is a reach weapon, so you'll often get an AoO on enemies that try to approach you.

Crake

2011-09-09, 03:13 PM

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 03:31 PM

Well, you can get decent mileage out of:
Fighter 2/Barbarian 12/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4. This gets you the highest Str you can have without Polymorphing in Core, and thus makes you a maven in anything involving Strength-checks (don't forget to take Enlarge Person as one of your spells known).

It also gets you decent Will-saves for a melee build (you get 11 base and +3 from Rage), all the normal proficiencies (you could replace Fighter with Ranger if you start on high enough level or high enough stats that heavy armor is not alluring) and and just about the best kit you can get on a melee character in Core.

For feats you want:
Power Attack
Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Mounted Combat -> Spirited Charge (with RBA of course)
Leadership (if it's allowed)

Then fill out with stuff like Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, Weapon Focus, Iron Will and company if you end up with excess feats.

But yeah, it lacks Horizon Tripper's mobility but you still get good approach ability in mounted charge (only good one not requiring Polymorph-types in Core), and exceedingly solid stand-up fighting capability. If you pick up Rapid Shot (through Ranger 2) and have decent base Dex you can also pass for a decent archer too.

monkey3

2011-09-09, 03:46 PM

if you dont mind me asking, why go fighter 2 instead of barbarian 2, i figure uncanny dodge is much better than a feat?

It is situational. Our group doesn't get hit with too many sneak attacks. Must just be the style of our DMs. As you suggested, your variation may be a good alternative if you prefer uncanny dodge to a feat. You'ed also net a hot point on the exchange :)

I really like the wings, breath, +8 str and blindfighting of -full- Dragon Disciple, and think it add a flavor that plain core melee lacks.

Hazzardevil

2011-09-09, 03:52 PM

deuxhero

2011-09-09, 04:03 PM

If MM is allowed as core, pick up Quicken SLA as your 16th level feat for a Horizon Tripper.

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 04:10 PM

I really like the wings, breath, +8 str and blindfighting of -full- Dragon Disciple, and think it add a flavor that plain core melee lacks.

Full DD is fairly terrible. Dragon Apotheosis causes you to become ineligible for Enlarge Person which actually decreases your damage output and vastly decreases your control capability overall. This can be circumvented with Polymorph or Righteous Might but barring those, you really don't want it.

You also lose 2 excess points of BAB, though DD 8 is plenty decent. Note that the Breath Weapon is practically powerless (far, far less damage than any attack you can do) and only 1/day so it's for all intents and purposes worthless. 4 levels of Dragon Disciple nets you +4 Str and some good stuff for 2 BAB (1 for casting class, 1 for Dragon Disciple) tho which is easily worth it compared to Core melee classes, and 8 levels has some interesting offerings too. 9th has Wings if you can't get magical flight for the life of you.

Reason I personally choose against DD8 is that it costs you Rage-uses dropping you under the meaningful limit so you can't really expect to use it in all fights all day anymore. Also, Barb 11 happens to have Greater Rage which isn't terrible. The build I suggested is actually a functional Barb out of Core; without Extra Rage that's really the only way to get sufficient numbers of Rage-uses (painful as though it may be but since core-classes suck that bad, you aren't losing out on much).

Crake

2011-09-09, 04:11 PM

Personally, to keep things interesting I would try and introduce the DM to some more feats, because a core-only fighter will run out of feats to take quickly.

If that doesn't work, google Jack b. quick or be a fighter that takes feats so he can pull off a variety of different maneuvers, stacking on trip, disarm and sunder isn't nice.

In the words of the Red Handbook of Doom, (Which I suggest you reccomend to the DM if he wants an easy to run adventure):
If you don’t have ToB, or don’t like it in your campaign, you need your head examined but are entitled to your opinion.

Its not so much that he doesnt want it, more that he doesnt have time to read through it being so busy :shrug:

I'm considering giving away my position in this group for some of my friends who havent had the chance to play as much dnd as I have. Hopefully playing with a hardcore DM will teach them some respect of the laxness in our other group.

faceroll

2011-09-09, 04:22 PM

Personally, to keep things interesting I would try and introduce the DM to some more feats, because a core-only fighter will run out of feats to take quickly.

Feats core fighter should have:
power attack
improved initiative
point blank shot
precise shot
rapid shot
mounted combat
ride by attack
spirited charge
combat expertise
improved trip

That's 10/11 of a fighter's bonus feats. You can pick up some weapon focuses or EWPs with your other feats.

Hazzardevil

2011-09-09, 05:39 PM

Feats core fighter should have:
power attack
improved initiative
point blank shot
precise shot
rapid shot
mounted combat
ride by attack
spirited charge
combat expertise
improved trip

That's 10/11 of a fighter's bonus feats. You can pick up some weapon focuses or EWPs with your other feats.

Why is it whenever I say something I hope to be constructive Faceroll seems to come and undermine my point!

God Dammit Nappa! Faceroll!

faceroll

2011-09-09, 05:49 PM

Why is it whenever I say something I hope to be constructive Faceroll seems to come and undermine my point!

God Dammit Nappa! Faceroll!

:smallfrown:

adfghfdgdafehhf

Human Paragon 3

2011-09-09, 05:54 PM

How are you generating stats? Do you have a stat array yet?

BlueInc

2011-09-09, 06:26 PM

Clerics and Druids can make pretty good martial characters in a core-only game.

ericgrau

2011-09-09, 06:57 PM

Barbarian is a great dip if you don't expect many encounters per day. Unless you're starting at precisely level 2-3 I'd delay power attack when sticking to core only. You actually do more with weapon focus and weapon spec without shock trooper and so on; the attack roll penalty really does hurt. When you do get PA limit it to -2/+4 against normally armored foes, 0 against heavily armored and go to town on unarmored things (as much as possible while still hitting on ~2-3; guess the best you can).

Without many other options to boost damage you want to pick a secondary focus in core later on. Tripping, grappling, mounted combat, whatever you fancy. It seems like you already made a choice there so you're all set. Combat expertise tree + fighter tree mostly. The save boosting feats, dodge, improved initiative and power attack are mediocre general purpose options, except in special cases (PA for cleaving armies, a certain save is a common problem, etc.) , but good once you run out of your main feats and don't have any other ideas.

With limited feat options half-orc is a serious consideration over human, especially on a tripper. Dwarf is good as always. Monster races are even better if allowed to play those, especially orcs and grimlocks. At higher levels prc into dragon disciple for the sexy strength boosts and good stats overall. Levels 4 or 7 are good stopping points if you don't want to take it the whole way. You don't necessarily have to take it the moment you qualify either. It's especially good once you run out of decent feat options.

Simple example, half-orc barbarian 1 / fighter X: (1) weapon focus, (2) combat expertise, (3) improved trip + improved disarm, (5) weapon spec, (6) combat reflexes. Etc. Carry potions of enlarge person.

Horizon tripper seems more fun than anything. I don't think it's over-optimized, merely versatile with lots of things you can do. If you think you'd enjoy it, don't hesitate.

Crake

2011-09-09, 07:36 PM

How are you generating stats? Do you have a stat array yet?

the DM says either 32 point buy or 5d6 drop 2, Only one chance on the rolls, and if i roll, cant swap back to point buy.

also, could someone quickly elaborate on how a druid would work for melee combat? Ive known they're good for a while, just never understood how. Im kinda liking the idea all of a sudden

Greenish

2011-09-09, 07:51 PM

also, could someone quickly elaborate on how a druid would work for melee combat?Turn into a bear/tiger/crocodile/whathaveyou and maul people.

Crake

2011-09-09, 07:53 PM

Turn into a bear/tiger/crocodile/whathaveyou and maul people.

surely it cant be that easy? also what do you do until level 5?

also apparently wild form functions like alternate form instead of polymorph? My physical copy says it functions like polymorph, but the srd and my pdf copy say alternate form.

Ok, just noticed it says alternate form, not alter self, so not as sad

deuxhero

2011-09-09, 08:01 PM

Wildshape. It really is that simple, just pick up Natural Spell so you don't lose your awesome full casting while you do it.

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:03 PM

surely it cant be that easy? also what do you do until level 5?

It's just that easy. Animals of a given HD have stats comparable to a Fighter maxing that stat. Then you have your buffs on top of that. And until level 5 you either have good stats and abuse the fact that low level fighting is basically ability checks rather than invoking class features or BAB (you're -1 behind a Fighter on level 1 with equivalent Strength with the exact same damage; -2 if they have Weapon Focus. Oh noez.). You use buff spells later on; Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and company give you some very convenient stats in your animal forms (that the animal itself wouldn't have access to) and then you wear Wild Armor and Shield which further improve your AC. If they're hard to find, you can pick up Craft Magic Arms & Armor and craft them yourself.

But if you don't have good stats, you just let your animal companion handle melee for the first 5 levels (it is perfectly competitive with a Fighter or at least an NPC Warrior especially early on, and the more conservative the stat generation, the better AC gets by comparison). Cast an occasional buff and focus on control magics while your AC handles melee with its two HD on level 1 and solid stats.

Sure, you'll have to make do with a "level 1 Warrior" on level 2 but you'll get the jump start to level 3 Warrior on level 3 (because of the funky way Animal Companions advance; they only get advancement every 2 out of 3 levels [if counting switching to a higher level companion], basically).

The classic option is a War-Trained Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with Studded Leather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions) Barding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures). Riding Dogs can be War-Trained which gives them the Trip-attack and Armor Proficiency; since yours is going to be a combatant this is an obvious choice.

A War-Trained Riding Dog has:
13 HP (2 HD), 19 AC, 40' Movement Speed

+3 To Hit for 1d6+3 & Trip (at +3)

+5 Fort, +5 Ref, +1 Will

Scent & Tracking + Low-Light Vision

+5 Spot & Listen

Basically, a solid all-around package.

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:12 PM

It's just that easy. Animals of a given HD have stats comparable to a Fighter maxing that stat. Then you have your buffs on top of that. And until level 5 you either have good stats and abuse the fact that low level fighting is basically ability checks rather than invoking class features or BAB (you're -1 behind a Fighter on level 1 with equivalent Strength with the exact same damage; -2 if they have Weapon Focus. Oh noez.). You use buff spells later on; Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and company give you some very convenient stats in your animal forms (that the animal itself wouldn't have access to) and then you wear Wild Armor and Shield which further improve your AC. If they're hard to find, you can pick up Craft Magic Arms & Armor and craft them yourself.

But if you don't have good stats, you just let your animal companion handle melee for the first 5 levels (it is perfectly competitive with a Fighter or at least an NPC Warrior especially early on, and the more conservative the stat generation, the better AC gets by comparison). Cast an occasional buff and focus on control magics while your AC handles melee with its two HD on level 1 and solid stats.

Sure, you'll have to make do with a "level 1 Warrior" on level 2 but you'll get the jump start to level 3 Warrior on level 3 (because of the funky way Animal Companions advance; they only get advancement every 2 out of 3 levels [if counting switching to a higher level companion], basically).

The classic option is a War-Trained Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with Studded Leather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions) Barding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures). Riding Dogs can be War-Trained which gives them the Trip-attack and Armor Proficiency; since yours is going to be a combatant this is an obvious choice.

A War-Trained Riding Dog has:
13 HP (2 HD), 19 AC, 40' Movement Speed

+3 To Hit for 1d6+3 & Trip (at +3)

+5 Fort, +5 Ref, +1 Will

Scent & Tracking + Low-Light Vision

+5 Spot & Listen

Basically, a solid all-around package.

damn, thats pretty intense for level 1. would it be worth going a small character to be able to ride on it? or just hang back and cast stuff

Greenish

2011-09-09, 08:14 PM

surely it cant be that easy?Why not? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleeyyr8ln8spjv)

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:15 PM

damn, thats pretty intense for level 1. would it be worth going a small character to be able to ride on it? or just hand back and cast stuff

Worth it just to be able to? No. If it's going to be a frontliner while you're wanting to sit back you won't be doing lots of combat riding anyways. But if you want to be a small character, it's an added bonus. Small is v. good for Druid; Wildshape allows you to negate any melee disadvantages it invokes leaving you just harder to pin down and better at landing ranged attacks as Small.

Also, Small races tend to have a Strength-penalty which is fairly optimal for Druids that don't want to melee before level 5; it'll be subsumed in Wildshape while you enjoy a useful stat instead. The only big downsides in being Small is the 20' movement speed (since you want to sit back and not fight, being able to position is of paramount importance) and the fact that you're easier to take down with combat maneuvers (it's annoying to get grappled by an Orc let alone something bigger, or tripped by a friggin' Dire Wolf).

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:21 PM

Worth it just to be able to? No. If it's going to be a frontliner while you're wanting to sit back you won't be doing lots of combat riding anyways. But if you want to be a small character, it's an added bonus. Small is v. good for Druid; Wildshape allows you to negate any melee disadvantages it invokes leaving you just harder to pin down and better at landing ranged attacks as Small.

Also, Small races tend to have a Strength-penalty which is fairly optimal for Druids that don't want to melee before level 5; it'll be subsumed in Wildshape while you enjoy a useful stat instead. The only big downsides in being Small is the 20' movement speed (since you want to sit back and not fight, being able to position is of paramount importance) and the fact that you're easier to take down with combat maneuvers (it's annoying to get grappled by an Orc let alone something bigger, or tripped by a friggin' Dire Wolf).

I'm tossing up halfling and gray elf in my head, certainly is a bonus, but gray elf gets an int bonus which is nice, since I wont care about that strength and con penalty will be negated in wildshape

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:23 PM

I'm tossing up halfling and gray elf in my head, certainly is a bonus, but gray elf gets an int bonus which is nice, since I wont care about that strength and con penalty will be negated in wildshape

Unfortunately, while you do get the new form's Constitution your HP is still determined by your old Constitution. This makes Con the one physical stat Druids care about (and since you'll be in melee quite a bit while Wildshaped, they actually care about it quite a bit).

Indeed, the advice for "Quickstart Druid" is "highest stat in Wis, second highest in Con, rest don't matter". Of course high mentals are nice; Druids have good skill lists and skill points are awesome, and Cha goes with some of those skills (and Wild Empathy; also Handle Animal which can be used to utilize additional animals in combat).

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:25 PM

Unfortunately, while you do get the new form's Constitution your HP is still determined by your old Constitution. This makes Con the one physical stat Druids care about (and since you'll be in melee quite a bit while Wildshaped, they actually care about it quite a bit).

Indeed, the advice for "Quickstart Druid" is "highest stat in Wis, second highest in Con, rest don't matter". Of course high mentals are nice; Druids have good skill lists and skill points are awesome, and Cha goes with some of those skills (and Wild Empathy; also Handle Animal which can be used to utilize additional animals in combat).

ah damn, yet another reason to go a halfling.

The campaign setting will be greyhawk, which i know absolutely nothing about. So I figure, what better way to roleplay that than say I grew up in the forest. Elf kinda stuck with that (although grey elf not so much lol) but i guess a halfling could grow up in the forest?

kinda liked the idea of being so long lived, but hey, whatcha gonna do

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:29 PM

ah damn, yet another reason to go a halfling.

The campaign setting will be greyhawk, which i know absolutely nothing about. So I figure, what better way to roleplay that than say I grew up in the forest. Elf kinda stuck with that (although grey elf not so much lol) but i guess a halfling could grow up in the forest?

Well, Halflings are one of the "Races of the Wild" so yeah. Mind, there's no reason for Druids' connection to be to forests; caverns, deserts, sea, etc. are all equally a part of the nature and a Druid's connection is to nature, not any specific part of it.

Mechanically, Gnome is actually the best of that bunch since they get a Constitution bonus and a Strength-penalty. Though Halflings do have some Sling-bonuses which help you up to speed on the low levels where Sling is probably your weapon of choice barring racial proficiencies (Elves of course use Longbows).

Druids don't get many good ranged weapons and their solid melee weapon proficiencies aren't really of interest to someone with poor Strength. Of course, if you have a good Strength it's a different matter entirely and I'd be fully considering smacking face in melee for the first levels buffing with Shillelagh and Bear's Strength.

Also note that Human Druids are fine. Human is in fact one of the top races of the game and casters are the one archetype for whom feats are really good even in Core. Martial casters like Druids doubly so.

That said, Druids are good enough that you don't really need to eke out every edge; a Druid of any race will do just fine.

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:39 PM

Well, Halflings are one of the "Races of the Wild" so yeah. Mind, there's no reason for Druids' connection to be to forests; caverns, deserts, sea, etc. are all equally a part of the nature and a Druid's connection is to nature, not any specific part of it.

Mechanically, Gnome is actually the best of that bunch since they get a Constitution bonus and a Strength-penalty. Though Halflings do have some Sling-bonuses which help you up to speed on the low levels where Sling is probably your weapon of choice barring racial proficiencies (Elves of course use Longbows).

Druids don't get many good ranged weapons and their solid melee weapon proficiencies aren't really of interest to someone with poor Strength. Of course, if you have a good Strength it's a different matter entirely and I'd be fully considering smacking face in melee for the first levels buffing with Shillelagh and Bear's Strength.

Also note that Human Druids are fine. Human is in fact one of the top races of the game and casters are the one archetype for whom feats are really good even in Core. Martial casters like Druids doubly so.

That said, Druids are good enough that you don't really need to eke out every edge; a Druid of any race will do just fine.

yeah, i really dont wanna go a gnome, lol. Human is certainly an option, feats and skills are always good, Half elf doesnt look too bad either

OH, i just remembered one of the huge reasons I wanted to go elf. The DM is gonna be super hadcore, so only needing to rest for 4 hours, and not actually needing sleep will be a huge plus - and as i write this, i cant actually find the bit where it says this

Greenish

2011-09-09, 08:40 PM

a Druid of any race will do just fine.Or better. Druid is perhaps the easiest class to break by accident. If you're already considered "that guy", making something that can solo the fights the entire rest of the party struggles with might not be desirable.

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:43 PM

Or better. Druid is perhaps the easiest class to break by accident. If you're already considered "that guy", making something that can solo the fights the entire rest of the party struggles with might not be desirable.

I'll be actively keeping the gamebreaking to a minimum. We're starting at level 1 and having a huge 4 day marathon, then deciding whether or not to continue after that, so theres a huge possibility this wont even pass level 5 let alone 10

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:44 PM

Half elf doesnt look too bad either

Half-Elf has no stat adjustments, no feats, no nothing. It's the blandest of bland races; I'd avoid it.

OH, i just remembered one of the huge reasons I wanted to go elf. The DM is gonna be super hadcore, so only needing to rest for 4 hours, and not actually needing sleep will be a huge plus - and as i write this, i cant actually find the bit where it says this

*shrug* If you want to, Wild Elf isn't terrible for a Druid. They do have an Int-penalty which is annoying but they do not have a Con-penalty which is convenient. Gray Elf is the other option but given the choice, I'd take Int-penalty over Con-penalty.

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:50 PM

Half-Elf has no stat adjustments, no feats, no nothing. It's the blandest of bland races; I'd avoid it.

*shrug* If you want to, Wild Elf isn't terrible for a Druid. They do have an Int-penalty which is annoying but they do not have a Con-penalty which is convenient. Gray Elf is the other option but given the choice, I'd take Int-penalty over Con-penalty.

Considering dex and str get dropped in wildform, gray is -2con for +2 int, probably not the best trade-off for a druid, id have to agree. I think I'll roll my stats before deciding on a race. Hopefully ill get an 18 in there to slap into wis

hex0

2011-09-09, 08:53 PM

Ranger 11/Fighter 6/Barbarian 5

Focus on duel wield scimitars and take weapon spec.? Improved crit?

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 08:53 PM

Considering dex and str get dropped in wildform, gray is -2con for +2 int, probably not the best trade-off for a druid, id have to agree. I think I'll roll my stats before deciding on a race. Hopefully ill get an 18 in there to slap into wis

It's worth noting that for the first 4 levels (and parts of 5th and 6th when you don't have Wildshape 24/7 yet) Dexterity will be a very useful stat for Initiative, AC, ranged (touch) attacks and all the good stuff. In that sense Elves are a decent option.

Crake

2011-09-09, 08:59 PM

It's worth noting that for the first 4 levels (and parts of 5th and 6th when you don't have Wildshape 24/7 yet) Dexterity will be a very useful stat for Initiative, AC, ranged (touch) attacks and all the good stuff. In that sense Elves are a decent option.

that is very noteworthy, elves are still on my list, just not gray elf. Wild elf seems like a pretty solid choice and fits nicely with both the idea of not knowing anything of the outside world and of a druid

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 09:05 PM

that is very noteworthy, elves are still on my list, just not gray elf. Wild elf seems like a pretty solid choice and fits nicely with both the idea of not knowing anything of the outside world and of a druid

Well, it's not in the Monster Manual but Arctic Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticElves) would be fairly optimal. Barring that tho, yeah, Wild Elf is probably the best Elf for you.

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:07 PM

Well, it's not in the Monster Manual but Arctic Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticElves) would be fairly optimal. Barring that tho, yeah, Wild Elf is probably the best Elf for you.

i might be able to get my DM to approve that if im lucky, which book is it from?

Greenish

2011-09-09, 09:09 PM

i might be able to get my DM to approve that if im lucky, which book is it from?Unearthed Arcana (not to be confused with the 3rd party book Arcana Unearthed).

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 09:10 PM

i might be able to get my DM to approve that if im lucky, which book is it from?

It's from Unearthed Arcana; the book is basically a bunch of variants - Arctic Elf is under the environmentally adapted races (there's Arctic Everything, Desert Everything, Jungle Everything and Aquatic Everything where Everything is like PHB Races + some low tier monsters (Orcs, Hobgoblins, Goblins, Kobolds, etc.)).

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-09, 09:11 PM

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:14 PM

If you don't want to be "the powergamer", just play a straight barbarian. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative. Spend two skill points to gain literacy. Reasonable for core melee. Also, tell your DM to google "3.5 optimized [insert core class] builds" and tell him to do it for all the core classes.

haha, good point regarding the optimised builds. Regarding the barbarian idea, I'm not really a fan of pure barbarians, never really been interested in playing one.

I think ill be going with a druid really

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 09:15 PM

haha, good point regarding the optimised builds. Regarding the barbarian idea, I'm not really a fan of pure barbarians, never really been interested in playing one.

I think ill be going with a druid really

At least you get to play one of the "optimal as single-classed" classes so you don't have to deal with people complaining how you're a munchkin 'cause you "abuse multiclassing".

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:22 PM

At least you get to play one of the "optimal as single-classed" classes so you don't have to deal with people complaining how you're a munchkin 'cause you "abuse multiclassing".

yeah, i can very easily see them complaining about that. That said, this group complains about everything. Especially when i point out flaws in their "awesome feat combos/spells" that are blatant misreading/misinterpreting of the rules

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 09:26 PM

yeah, i can very easily see them complaining about that. That said, this group complains about everything. Especially when i point out flaws in their "awesome feat combos/spells" that are blatant misreading/misinterpreting of the rules

I feel for ya. Going "OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN" by blatantly misreading something and then throwing a tantrum when someone points the mistake out is right up there with "Monk's awesome 'cause with Use-Activation Item of Shapechange..." in terms of annoyance far as balance discussion goes.

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:34 PM

I feel for ya. Going "OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN" by blatantly misreading something and then throwing a tantrum when someone points the mistake out is right up there with "Monk's awesome 'cause with Use-Activation Item of Shapechange..." in terms of annoyance far as balance discussion goes.

haha, that said, i personally think monks are awesome, at least, the idea of monks

probably has something to do with my parents sending me to do martial arts when i was a kid

also, all that said, the monk is currently out damaging everyone in our group currently. I would be out damaging him, but im playing a vow of peace telepath in that campaign, so no damage stuff from me

Eldariel

2011-09-09, 09:37 PM

haha, that said, i personally think monks are awesome, at least, the idea of monks

I'm sure you'll find vast majority of users of this particular forum would agree with you on the "idea"-part (enough so that it's probably the most popular class to homebrew fixes for) and disagree vehemently that the execution is fine. But that's a whole other can of worms entirely. Let's stick to your Druid for now :smalltongue:

Crake

2011-09-09, 09:40 PM

I'm sure you'll find vast majority of users of this particular forum would agree with you on the "idea"-part (enough so that it's probably the most popular class to homebrew fixes for) and disagree vehemently that the execution is fine. But that's a whole other can of worms entirely. Let's stick to your Druid for now :smalltongue:

True enough.

I'm just sitting around waiting for my DM to wake up so I can ask him if he'd let me take arctic elf

faceroll

2011-09-10, 02:36 AM

surely it cant be that easy? also what do you do until level 5?

also apparently wild form functions like alternate form instead of polymorph? My physical copy says it functions like polymorph, but the srd and my pdf copy say alternate form.

Ok, just noticed it says alternate form, not alter self, so not as sad

Have a wolf animal companion that you put a few buffs on. Use entangle and produce flame to stay nice and safe. Summon more wolves if you can't entangle.

Trip is seriously good.

Hazzardevil

2011-09-10, 02:45 AM

:smallfrown:

adfghfdgdafehhf

My tongue was inserted quite firmly in my cheek when I made that post.

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 02:46 AM

My tongue was inserted quite firmly in my cheek when I made that post.

He's haunting you.

Midnight_v

2011-09-10, 03:33 AM

True enough.

I'm just sitting around waiting for my DM to wake up so I can ask him if he'd let me take arctic elf

I don't think you should even ask. I'm agreeing with Eldariel on everything, but just for the slightest consideration that someone might talk smack about you being a "special race", makes me think, just go along with it and be completly "core".
Spamming entagle for the win. Etc.

No one can accuse you of being that guy if you're just a halfling or human druid.

faceroll

2011-09-10, 03:45 AM

I don't think you should even ask. I'm agreeing with Eldariel on everything, but just for the slightest consideration that someone might talk smack about you being a "special race", makes me think, just go along with it and be completly "core".
Spamming entagle for the win. Etc.

No one can accuse you of being that guy if you're just a halfling or human druid.

Yeah, arctic elf isn't even that good. Not worth it, imo. Depending on what your stats are, you may consider old age. -3 all physical stats, +2 all mental stats. I would go gnome, dwarf, or human, in that order.

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 04:16 AM

Yeah, arctic elf isn't even that good. Not worth it, imo.

I was more bringing it up since he expressed desire to be an Elf; it's probably the best Elf-race for Druids and not far off Core really. Would be slightly better than Wild Elf in that losing Int sucks (as in, it's absolutely 0 fun to lose Int and not have enough of those pretty skill points for fun stuff).

Crake

2011-09-10, 11:24 AM

I was more bringing it up since he expressed desire to be an Elf; it's probably the best Elf-race for Druids and not far off Core really. Would be slightly better than Wild Elf in that losing Int sucks (as in, it's absolutely 0 fun to lose Int and not have enough of those pretty skill points for fun stuff).

ok, i managed to get arctic elf approved :thumbsup: Ability rolls will be on thursday, so heres hoping for some not terrible rolls.

He's also letting me make my/my dogs studded leather armor at 10% of the listed price using bought studs and harvested leather from living in the wild. Pretty good considering i only start with 50gp

Zaq

2011-09-10, 05:10 PM

If point-buy is still an option, I say take it. Especially for a Druid, bad stats hurt more than good stats help. 32's a perfectly workable (indeed, it's stock-standard in most of the CharOp I hear about) PB, and you stand to lose more than you stand to gain. Just buy your stats and be done.

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 05:18 PM

Especially for a Druid, bad stats hurt more than good stats help.

Whuh? Druid is like the least stat-dependent class in the game. You basically need one 15 and the rest can be whatever. That said, this shouldn't be the consideration when choosing whether to roll or PB. Though from what I understand of the OP, he doesn't have the choice.

32's a perfectly workable (indeed, it's stock-standard in most of the CharOp I hear about) PB, and you stand to lose more than you stand to gain. Just buy your stats and be done.

32pb is insanely strong; you get your 18 Wis and a bunch o' 14s to go with it.

Greenish

2011-09-10, 05:20 PM

32pb is insanely strongHmm, I seem to recall seeing someone in these very boards advocate for even higher pointbuys.

ericgrau

2011-09-10, 05:23 PM

^ then the DM needs to upgrade monsters to attempt to match, which is needlessly complicated IMO.

For levels 1-5 barbarian is not only "workable" but perhaps your best option. I actually ran a level 1 contest once and the barbarian came out ahead, better than the riding dog druid. Both are less useful for more than 2 encounters per day though. Feel free to merely dip barbarian as rage is the main reason.

Since you're starting at level 1 I'll take back what I said about power attack and suggest you get it at level 2. I wouldn't usually go beyond -3/+6 on it though. If you ever hit 6 BAB I'd drop that to -2/+4 on full attacks. Again adjust based on target AC. Same feat order I suggested before with PA inserted in on level 2 and everything at 2 onward pushed back 1 notch.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-10, 05:25 PM

Since you're starting at level 1 I'll take back what I said about power attack and suggest you get it at level 2. I wouldn't usually go beyond -3/+6 on it though. If you ever hit 6 BAB I'd drop that to -2/+4 on full attacks. Again depends on target AC. Same feat order I suggested before with PA inserted in on level 2 and everything at 2 onward pushed back 1 notch.

How do you get a feat at level 2?

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 05:26 PM

Hmm, I seem to recall seeing someone in these very boards advocate for even higher pointbuys.

Yeah, most people I've talked with do. Becomes a matter of getting more than the essentials to personalize your character a bit without meaningfully impacting the power, and helps the weaker classes.

But regardless, with the base assumptions of the system a 32pb is very high and for Druid specifically, it's luxurious.

ericgrau

2011-09-10, 05:29 PM

How do you get a feat at level 2?
Fighter of course. My last post suggested barbarian 1 / fighter X. Failing that grab PA at 3.

Zaq

2011-09-10, 05:33 PM

Whuh? Druid is like the least stat-dependent class in the game. You basically need one 15 and the rest can be whatever. That said, this shouldn't be the consideration when choosing whether to roll or PB. Though from what I understand of the OP, he doesn't have the choice..

I meant that not in the sense of "the Druid needs high stats to function," but more in the sense of "you gain sufficiently little from all godly stats that it's not worth the small but real chance of rolling straight 14s."

Crake

2011-09-10, 06:25 PM

Though from what I understand of the OP, he doesn't have the choice.

we have the choice of 32 point buy or 5d6 drop 2, but only one chance at rolls, and once i roll i cant opt to go back to 32 pb

i havent rolled yet, so feel free to post any 32pb arrays you'd feel would be good. I'd like to have enough strength to carry my equipment as a light load btw. I'm gonna be having, at the least, studded leather armor (20lb) a scimitar or longsword (4lb) and a longbow and 20 arrows (6lb) on my person, so i need at least 30lb of carrying capacity (some room to move would be nice though). Anything else i need to carry that wouldnt need immediate attention can just go on my riding dog companion

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 06:34 PM

we have the choice of 32 point buy or 5d6 drop 2, but only one chance at rolls, and once i roll i cant opt to go back to 32 pb

i havent rolled yet

Meh, go roll. 32pb is very strong quite safely but you're a Druid, you don't need to be strong on those numbers.

Crake

2011-09-10, 06:38 PM

Meh, go roll. 32pb is very strong quite safely but you're a Druid, you don't need to be strong on those numbers.

im actually considering just doing pb cause im really paranoid about getting bad rolls

is an 18 really worth it with point buy? because it takes alot of points and leaves me without much to spend on other abilities

atm I'm thinking 10(-2), 10(+2), 12, 14, 18, 10

8 str means i cant carry all my gear as light load though, so im thinking about dropping 2 from either cha or dex into str

Greenish

2011-09-10, 06:44 PM

You can do 18, but I usually don't bother. 16 isn't bad, and leaves you with more points to spread around. For example, you'd want higher con than 12, most likely.

Crake

2011-09-10, 06:48 PM

You can do 18, but I usually don't bother. 16 isn't bad, and leaves you with more points to spread around. For example, you'd want higher con than 12, most likely.

hmm, dropping wis to 16 does let me get 12 (-2), 12 (+2), 14, 14, 16, 10

so thats a bit more hp and AC, also no penalty to cha skills, which is also nice

also, is there a standard druid feat progression? Cause atm im tossing up between endurance, improved initiative and eschew materials

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 06:56 PM

hmm, dropping wis to 16 does let me get 12 (-2), 12 (+2), 14, 14, 16, 10

so thats a bit more hp and AC, also no penalty to cha skills, which is also nice

I'd 100% go 18 Wis on a Druid. You can easily afford it on a 32pb and it's just that good. Overall, whenever I do point buy on a caster I get 18 in the casting stat on anything above 25pb. With 32pb, I'd do something like:

18 Wis (16 points)
14 Con (6 points)
12 Dex (2 points) (+2 racial calculated)
12 Int (4 points)
10 Cha (2 points)
8 Str (2 points) (-2 racial calculated)

EDIT: Oh yeah, going Middle-Aged would buy you an extra point or two. But really, I'd just roll; the odds of getting better rounded stats than point-buy outweigh the chances of getting poor rolls (which you can still do well with; 14 max is still alright going Middle-Aged and picking up the 15 Wis).

ericgrau

2011-09-10, 06:59 PM

<digs up spreadsheet> FWIW 5d6 best 3 is 33 pb. Actually slightly higher because I set up the spreadsheet to ignore odd numbers. One of these I might change it to pay attention to an odd number in your high stat, b/c that one actually matters after level 4. You get less options if you roll though.

Greenish

2011-09-10, 06:59 PM

also, is there a standard druid feat progression? Cause atm im tossing up between endurance, improved initiative and eschew materialsThere's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214438) about building a core-only druid, but the standard wisdom is that you take Natural Spell at 6th and don't worry about the other feats.

Crake

2011-09-10, 07:01 PM

I'd 100% go 18 Wis on a Druid. You can easily afford it on a 32pb and it's just that good. Overall, whenever I do point buy on a caster I get 18 in the casting stat on anything above 25pb. With 32pb, I'd do something like:

18 Wis (16 points)
14 Con (6 points)
12 Dex (2 points) (+2 racial calculated)
12 Int (4 points)
10 Cha (2 points)
8 Str (2 points) (-2 racial calculated)

i was actually considered almost that same array, only drop 2 from cha and put it into int for 8 cha and 14 int. With 14 int i can max out handle animal, knowledge (nature) spellcraft, spot, listen and survival

I cant really think of where cha would be necessary for a druid, so I'm okay with it being at 8

There's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214438) about building a core-only druid, but the standard wisdom is that you take Natural Spell at 6th and don't worry about the other feats.

oh nice, spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning make alot of sense, didnt think of that

hex0

2011-09-10, 07:05 PM

Don't play Dragon Disciple in core only. You are better off with Half-Dragon because there aren't any full BAB classes with Knowledge Arcana as a skill. The best you could pull off would be Monk and/or Sorcerer or Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Full BAB class(es)...BAB of 14 or 15 and a lower HP and low spell-casting ability and little effective use for them.

My second campaign to 3.0 'back in the day' was playing a Dwarf Half-Dragon and I really liked it. You'd end up with 16 BAB in the end. If you are a Barbarian, you get a boost to your breath weapon dc while raging so it is great for a boss fight. Dwarf nets you some CON and nice racial abilities too.

There are two different builds I can suggest. Play a Ranger and use an attack combo of Greataxe, Armor Spikes, Bite or play a Fighter/Barbarian and focus on just Greataxe and bite. (I prefer the latter) Your massive strength can overcome the attack penalties easily but your claws aren't that great and should only be used if disarmed etc.

(half dragon 3)
Barbarian 1, Multi-attack
Fighter 1, Power attack
Fighter 2, Weapon Focus Greataxe, Weapon Focus Bite
Fighter 3
Fighter 4, weapon spec. Greataxe
Fighter 5, Improved natual attack: bite
Fighter 6, Weapon focus bite
Fighter 7
Fighter 8 Weapon spec: Bite, Improved crit Greataxe
Barbarian 2
Barbarian 3
Barbarian 4, Greater Weapon Focus Greataxe
Barbarian 5
Barbarian 6
Barbarian 7, Improved Crit Bite
Barbarian 8
Barbarian 9

Full attack (before strength and other bonuses): Greataxe 19/+14/+9/+4 1d12+1.5 STR+2 19-20/X3 and Bite +16 1d8+half strength 19-20/x2

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 07:09 PM

i was actually considered almost that same array, only drop 2 from cha and put it into int for 8 cha and 14 int. With 14 int i can max out handle animal, knowledge (nature) spellcraft, spot, listen and survival

I cant really think of where cha would be necessary for a druid, so I'm okay with it being at 8

Something like that is fine. But I'd just roll. You'll probably get pretty decent stats outta 5d6b3. Quick gauntlet of 10 on what kinds of spreads you could expect: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11821882#post11821882

Remember, 17 max with Middle-Age is still 18 Wis.

Don't play Dragon Disciple in core only. You are better off with Half-Dragon because there aren't any full BAB classes with Knowledge Arcana as a skill. The best you could pull off would be Monk and/or Sorcerer or Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Full BAB class(es)...BAB of 14 or 15 and a lower HP and low spell-casting ability and little effective use for them.

You don't get more than 2 levels in the casting class. Dragon Disciple doesn't advance casting anyways. And you don't get all 10 levels in Dragon Disciple. That makes you ineligible for Enlarge Person. Dragon Disciple 4 and 8 are the break points. In Core, just about the best you can get for offense is Barb 12/Sorc 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Fighter 2. Loses 2 BAB but gets +4 Str for it (ergo 2 to hit and 3 damage).

Half-Dragon loses 3 HD making it pretty terrible compared to Dragon Disciple.

Crake

2011-09-10, 07:10 PM

hex0

2011-09-10, 07:21 PM

you didnt really get past the first page, did you lol.

Theres no way my DM would let me go half dragon btw, and i've decided to go with a druid anyway XD

Fair enough lol

Monk 2/Druid 18 isn't bad for core too. Evasion, three bonus feats, 5 ranks to tumble in class, great saves, and wis to ac all the time. Improved grapple helps you in bear form later, too.

You can also add unarmed strikes to your natural attack arrays for only a -4 penalty.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-10, 07:24 PM

Crake

2011-09-10, 07:26 PM

Half-dragon is bad anyway. A single immunity, a 1/day ability that doesn't scale, some ability score bonuses (the bonus to strength doesn't even matter much to a druid and the charisma bonus isn't much), and a +4 natural armor bonus (that doesn't matter to druids), for +3 LA. That means three less levels of animal companion, spellcasting, and wild shape.

i think the half dragon was more for a fighter/barbarian character, not for a druid

It's wierd, rolling 5d6 on a computer seems to net higher rolls than my dice. maybe i need new dice, cause i always get sub par rolls with these

i take that back, i just rolled 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 10 with them

Greenish

2011-09-10, 07:32 PM

oh nice, spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning make alot of sense, didnt think of thatWell, it also means you have to redo the statblocks of everything you summon. And that's more of a caster-y option anyhow, you could work on your melee feats instead, if that's what you intend to do.

Crake

2011-09-10, 07:54 PM

Well, it also means you have to redo the statblocks of everything you summon. And that's more of a caster-y option anyhow, you could work on your melee feats instead, if that's what you intend to do.

turns out someone else is going druid XD. We've decided he's gonna stick to spellcasting and summoning (thus going with those feat choices) and ill be wildshaping and running in and killing stuff.

I'll probably go with improved initiative to start, although endurance and eschew materials are still decent choices

hex0

2011-09-10, 08:12 PM

turns out someone else is going druid XD. We've decided he's gonna stick to spellcasting and summoning (thus going with those feat choices) and ill be wildshaping and running in and killing stuff.

I'll probably go with improved initiative to start, although endurance and eschew materials are still decent choices

If you can get a feat that is barely out of core (it's SRD). Get Faster Healing. You'll heal more all the time...and when you wildshape!

Crake

2011-09-10, 08:17 PM

If you can get a feat that is barely out of core (it's SRD). Get Faster Healing. You'll heal more all the time...and when you wildshape!

didnt you hear? wildshape doesnt heal anymore, since it functions as alternate form instead of polymorph now

i actually only found this out the other day, and was extremely dissapointed

Greenish

2011-09-10, 08:20 PM

didnt you hear? wildshape doesnt heal anymore, since it functions as alternate form instead of polymorph nowIt functions as Alternate Form, with few exceptions. One of them being the healing.

Crake

2011-09-10, 08:51 PM

It functions as Alternate Form, with few exceptions. One of them being the healing.

It does heal? Where does it say if you dont mind me asking? i cant actually find the line anywhere

whats the real difference between alternate form and polymorph anyway?

Greenish

2011-09-10, 08:53 PM

I don't know, I'm just going by SRD. :smalltongue:

Crake

2011-09-10, 09:02 PM

I don't know, I'm just going by SRD. :smalltongue:

weird, i just looked at the SRD, and it has an extra line "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night." thats not in my pdf of the players handbook

My physical copy says polymorph anyway

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-10, 09:08 PM

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 09:10 PM

weird, i just looked at the SRD, and it has an extra line "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night." thats not in my pdf of the players handbook

My physical copy says polymorph anyway

SRD includes Errata. Wildshape and all Polymorph-effects have received rather considerable amounts of errata so it's easiest to go by SRD (though you can just dl the errata and go through your books with a marker too...)

Crake

2011-09-10, 09:11 PM

It's called... errata. :P

lol, i have SOME phb errata, clearly not up to date though

SRD includes Errata. Wildshape and all Polymorph-effects have received rather considerable amounts of errata so it's easiest to go by SRD (though you can just dl the errata and go through your books with a marker too...)

SRD it is!

hex0

2011-09-10, 09:21 PM

Huge dire bear form with 2 levels of monk and improved natural attack...3 3d6 unarmed strikes plus claws and bite. :smallcool:

Crake

2011-09-10, 09:50 PM

Huge dire bear form with 2 levels of monk and improved natural attack...3 3d6 unarmed strikes plus claws and bite. :smallcool:

can you do that? i would have thought improved natural attack would only work for normal form natural attacks, since you need to pick which one it affects

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 09:57 PM

can you do that? i would have thought improved natural attack would only work for normal form natural attacks, since you need to pick which one it affects

No feat is specific to your normal form, part of why Wildshaping and Polymorphing can be so efficient. That said, Improved Natural Attack is largely quite weak; you need to reach a threshold of size increases to make it worth it and that comes quite late. You need level 15 for Huge Wildshape (Dire Bear is unfortunately Large too so you'd have to use something like Tyrannosaur); before then you really get miniscule amounts out of it.

1-level Monk dip does work tho and gives you Unarmed Strikes in any form (and Wis to AC when wearing no armor, and Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple). It's a decent option but you can get similar benefits with Monk's Belt eventually so it's only really strong if you don't get one, and even then giving up one level of everything a Druid provides (Spellcasting, Animal Companion, Wildshape and Class Features) is quite the cost, especially early on.

So yeah, if you started on a high level you could consider it but from level 1, I definitely suggest straight Druid since you really need Wildshape ASAP.

Crake

2011-09-10, 10:51 PM

No feat is specific to your normal form, part of why Wildshaping and Polymorphing can be so efficient. That said, Improved Natural Attack is largely quite weak; you need to reach a threshold of size increases to make it worth it and that comes quite late. You need level 15 for Huge Wildshape (Dire Bear is unfortunately Large too so you'd have to use something like Tyrannosaur); before then you really get miniscule amounts out of it.

1-level Monk dip does work tho and gives you Unarmed Strikes in any form (and Wis to AC when wearing no armor, and Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple). It's a decent option but you can get similar benefits with Monk's Belt eventually so it's only really strong if you don't get one, and even then giving up one level of everything a Druid provides (Spellcasting, Animal Companion, Wildshape and Class Features) is quite the cost, especially early on.

So yeah, if you started on a high level you could consider it but from level 1, I definitely suggest straight Druid since you really need Wildshape ASAP.

would a monks belt affect you while wildshaping? i suppose you could argue that the belt can still fit around the shapes waist, and thus could still affect you?

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 10:54 PM

would a monks belt affect you while wildshaping? i suppose you could argue that the belt can still fit around the shapes waist, and thus could still affect you?

If you can put it on after Wildshaped, yes. Otherwise no, items worn meld and are non-functional unless they state otherwise (basically only Wild Armor and Wild Shield). Wilding Clasps would allow having items stay on while Wildshaping those aren't DMG.

Crake

2011-09-10, 11:05 PM

If you can put it on after Wildshaped, yes. Otherwise no, items worn meld and are non-functional unless they state otherwise (basically only Wild Armor and Wild Shield). Wilding Clasps would allow having items stay on while Wildshaping those aren't DMG.

so in that case, it may be worth a 1 level dip into monk down the track?

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 11:08 PM

so in that case, it may be worth a 1 level dip into monk down the track?

Possibly, yes. Depends on your DM's houserules with regards to items and wildshape and your own wants. Monk 1/Druid X-1 does have some advantages over Druid X in terms of melee capability provided you can't just use Monk's Belt (Unarmed Strikes are the big one though depending on your DM, you might be able to just take Improved Unarmed Strike and be able to use Unarmed Strike while wildshaped...and some won't allow it even with Monk-level even tho it works by the rules) but it does:
- Delay Wildshape (every level gives you new forms and like I said, you need 15 levels to get Huge Wildshape)
- Delay Animal Companion (that is, your next upgrade/2HD improvement is multiple levels away)
- Delay Spellcasting (big problem since the highest level spells are the strongest)
- Cost you 1 point of BAB

But yeah, it's an option to keep in mind. Decide later if you want it; it's not in any way relevant before level 8 (Large Wildshape is just that good) at any rate so I wouldn't worry about it for now.

Crake

2011-09-10, 11:11 PM

Possibly, yes. Depends on your DM's houserules with regards to items and wildshape and your own wants. Monk 1/Druid X-1 does have some advantages over Druid X in terms of melee capability but it does:
- Delay Wildshape (every level gives you new forms and like I said, you need 15 levels to get Huge Wildshape)
- Delay Animal Companion (that is, your next upgrade/2HD improvement is multiple levels away)
- Delay Spellcasting (big problem since the highest level spells are the strongest)
- Cost you 1 point of BAB

But yeah, it's an option to keep in mind. Decide later if you want it; it's not in any way relevant before level 8 (Large Wildshape is just that good) at any rate so I wouldn't worry about it for now.

fair enough, i could probably convince my DM to use the fraction increase variant in Unearthed Arcana to not lose the BAB, but all the other points remain valid. I wasnt considering it for early levels anyway, since - ohgod, multiclassing xp, no thanks. A friend just brought it up, and i realised i would totally get hit by it, since neither druid nor monk are favored classes

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 11:20 PM

fair enough, i could probably convince my DM to use the fraction increase variant in Unearthed Arcana to not lose the BAB, but all the other points remain valid. I wasnt considering it for early levels anyway, since - ohgod, multiclassing xp, no thanks. A friend just brought it up, and i realised i would totally get hit by it, since neither druid nor monk are favored classes

Multiclass XP penalty is about the worst rule ever. If your DM uses it tho, well, that just makes Druid 20 even better. And Human, I guess. By XP penalties, the best get better and the worst get worse. Meh.

Crake

2011-09-10, 11:28 PM

Multiclass XP penalty is about the worst rule ever. If your DM uses it tho, well, that just makes Druid 20 even better. And Human, I guess. By XP penalties, the best get better and the worst get worse. Meh.

yeah, my DM thinks humans are the bomb due to multiclass xp, which leads me to believe he will enforce it. I dont wanna ask if he'll consider waiving it, because that feels like asking for trouble really

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 11:30 PM

yeah, my DM thinks humans are the bomb due to multiclass xp, which leads me to believe he will enforce it. I dont wanna ask if he'll consider waiving it, because that feels like asking for trouble really

Well, he's not that far off. Humans are the bomb, though rather due to the bonus feat. Meh. This only means you gotta play stronger classes on other races; Druids, Wizards & Clerics don't really benefit of multiclassing.

Crake

2011-09-10, 11:46 PM

hmm, feat-wise, combat expertise -> improved trip? improved unarmed attack for improved grapple sounds like a pain though

faceroll

2011-09-10, 11:47 PM

8 str means i cant carry all my gear as light load though, so im thinking about dropping 2 from either cha or dex into str

Have your pet carry it.
You can also train your pets to do tricks. It just takes time and a roll. Teach a pet monkey how to dress you in your magic equipment if your party won't do it.

If you're focusing on mauling things, a one level dip in monk is pretty solid, as it nets you 4 extra attacks by level 20 (assuming you guys use partial BAB), and also wisdom to AC. And a bonus feat. I would go with improved grapple, but that's because so much stuff is immune to stunning fist.

Aevio

2011-09-10, 11:49 PM

The best way to show "Stuff outside core is broken" GMs that they have no idea what they're talking about is to pick a core class, all core feats, all core spells... then break the game anyway.

Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 FTW :P

Yes, I know you're going to play a druid, I just had that thought is all lol.

Eldariel

2011-09-10, 11:59 PM

hmm, feat-wise, combat expertise -> improved trip? improved unarmed attack for improved grapple sounds like a pain though

Either is fine. Do as you will.

Crake

2011-09-11, 12:00 AM

Have your pet carry it.
You can also train your pets to do tricks. It just takes time and a roll. Teach a pet monkey how to dress you in your magic equipment if your party won't do it.

If you're focusing on mauling things, a one level dip in monk is pretty solid, as it nets you 4 extra attacks by level 20 (assuming you guys use partial BAB), and also wisdom to AC. And a bonus feat. I would go with improved grapple, but that's because so much stuff is immune to stunning fist.

i meant the basic equipment that i'd need mid combat. Thats my armor (20lb), my sword (4lb) my bow (3lb) and arrows (another 3lb). I cant have any of that on my dog mid combat and expect to be able to get to it without some trouble. Problem is it comes to 30lb, but 8str means 26lb for light load

Also, re: the monk dip, ive decided against it due to multiclass xp penalties my DM will likely be enforcing

hex0

2011-09-11, 12:17 AM

(Unarmed Strikes are the big one though depending on your DM, you might be able to just take Improved Unarmed Strike and be able to use Unarmed Strike while wildshaped

You can use Unarmed Strike with wildshape anyway. You keep your class features. You keep your wis to ac too!

faceroll

2011-09-11, 12:27 AM

i meant the basic equipment that i'd need mid combat. Thats my armor (20lb), my sword (4lb) my bow (3lb) and arrows (another 3lb). I cant have any of that on my dog mid combat and expect to be able to get to it without some trouble. Problem is it comes to 30lb, but 8str means 26lb for light load

Also, re: the monk dip, ive decided against it due to multiclass xp penalties my DM will likely be enforcing

I would carry a dagger (1lb), a sling (no lbs), a handful of pebbles (no lbs), studded leather (20lbs), and a light wooden shield (5lbs). With 8 strength, melee attacks just aren't worth it for you. Use magic stone to get your pebbles enchanted.

[edit]
Oh, so you're going elf, eh. Bummer.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 12:28 AM

i meant the basic equipment that i'd need mid combat. Thats my armor (20lb), my sword (4lb) my bow (3lb) and arrows (another 3lb). I cant have any of that on my dog mid combat and expect to be able to get to it without some trouble. Problem is it comes to 30lb, but 8str means 26lb for light load

First off, if you expect to actually deal any weapon damage in the first five levels, you should at least take 10 Strength. That -1 damage penalty is going to hit you hard, and even effects your damage dealt with longbows.

Second, I don't know that you should really bother with a melee weapon. If you get into melee, you can always take a 5 ft. step and fire an arrow without taking an AoO, and you don't have the STR to bump up your melee attack bonus to any reasonable level.

Third, considering you shouldn't really be in melee to begin with, you could probably afford to downgrade to regular Leather Armor, dropping your total carrying weight by 5 lbs. for the exchange of 1 AC.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 12:29 AM

I would carry a dagger (1lb), a sling (no lbs), a handful of pebbles (no lbs), studded leather (20lbs), and a light wooden shield (5lbs). With 8 strength, melee attacks just aren't worth it for you. Use magic stone to get your pebbles enchanted.

Or this. This is probably better than my idea.

Crake

2011-09-11, 12:30 AM

one thing that just crossed my mind, can wild shape be dispelled?

also, i upped my strength to 10, i can now carry all my stuff and will be shooting stuff with my longbow until they come into melee

faceroll

2011-09-11, 12:40 AM

Alternatively, produce flame as a 1st level spell is phenomenal. 1d6+level fire damage as either a thrown or melee touch attack. Magic stone better for 1st and 2nd level, though, just because you only get one shot with produce flame at first level.

Another really good first level spell is entangle.

If you insist to be in melee at level 1, don't use a scimitar. Wield a club instead, and cast shillelagh on it. More than double the damage, and clubs are free. Use the money you saved to get your dog some barding, or buy a couple guard dogs.

If you want a bow, keep it on the dog. Chances are, if you need to hit things more than 120 feet away, your dog will be nearby. If it's within 120 feet, just use fire.

And don't forget, if magic stone or produce flame aren't going to cut it, you can always summon wolves instead, spontaneously. Summoned wolves are quite vicious, thanks to their trip attack.

A very good method to deal with enemies at low levels, if you can get your party on board, is to have everyone equipped with bows. Open up with entangle from long range, and as the enemy struggles to escape, take them out with bows. Have your pets stay right outside of the entangled area ready to mob any straggles. Party melee can also wield reach weapons while enlarged (thanks party spellcaster!). This gives them 20 feet of reach, allowing them to threaten a good deal of area within the entangled area.

Mind you, if the whole party just runs into combat mindlessly, these tactics won't work. But if your DM ends up running lethal combats, these sorts of tactics will become necessary. An ogre is a TPK waiting to happen, despite it being appropriate for 15% of encounters.

one thing that just crossed my mind, can wild shape be dispelled?

Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled.

also, i upped my strength to 10, i can now carry all my stuff and will be shooting stuff with my longbow until they come into melee

Waste. I would put 8 in str and take -3 to all physical scores, for a total of 5 str. You don't need str when you have minions.

Big Fau

2011-09-11, 12:42 AM

one thing that just crossed my mind, can wild shape be dispelled?

No, because Dispel can't affect SUAs. Disjunction may or may not be able to end it, but if that spell ever hits the table (while you are restricted to Core Only) you actually have legal permission to use the Hammergun on your DM.

Eldariel

2011-09-11, 12:46 AM

You can use Unarmed Strike with wildshape anyway. You keep your class features. You keep your wis to ac too!

Only if you have the Unarmed Strikes class feature from multiclassing or Monk's Belt; just taking IUS doesn't give it to you. That said, this is merely RAW; not many DMs go by strict RAW and this is not the most intuitive rule so while talking about a specific game like this here, one still needs to work with the eventuality that the DM will rule against it.

i meant the basic equipment that i'd need mid combat. Thats my armor (20lb), my sword (4lb) my bow (3lb) and arrows (another 3lb). I cant have any of that on my dog mid combat and expect to be able to get to it without some trouble. Problem is it comes to 30lb, but 8str means 26lb for light load

Also, re: the monk dip, ive decided against it due to multiclass xp penalties my DM will likely be enforcing

You'll never use your sword; I wouldn't bother carrying one. Also, without 16+ Dex being on Medium Load isn't that big of an issue either way.

Crake

2011-09-11, 12:49 AM

Alternatively, produce flame as a 1st level spell is phenomenal. 1d6+level fire damage as either a thrown or melee touch attack. Magic stone better for 1st and 2nd level, though, just because you only get one shot with produce flame at first level.

Another really good first level spell is entangle.

If you insist to be in melee at level 1, don't use a scimitar. Wield a club instead, and cast shillelagh on it. More than double the damage, and clubs are free. Use the money you saved to get your dog some barding, or buy a couple guard dogs.

If you want a bow, keep it on the dog. Chances are, if you need to hit things more than 120 feet away, your dog will be nearby. If it's within 120 feet, just use fire.

And don't forget, if magic stone or produce flame aren't going to cut it, you can always summon wolves instead, spontaneously. Summoned wolves are quite vicious, thanks to their trip attack.

A very good method to deal with enemies at low levels, if you can get your party on board, is to have everyone equipped with bows. Open up with entangle from long range, and as the enemy struggles to escape, take them out with bows. Have your pets stay right outside of the entangled area ready to mob any straggles. Party melee can also wield reach weapons while enlarged (thanks party spellcaster!). This gives them 20 feet of reach, allowing them to threaten a good deal of area within the entangled area.

Mind you, if the whole party just runs into combat mindlessly, these tactics won't work. But if your DM ends up running lethal combats, these sorts of tactics will become necessary. An ogre is a TPK waiting to happen, despite it being appropriate for 15% of encounters.

Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled.

Waste. I would put 8 in str and take -3 to all physical scores, for a total of 5 str. You don't need str when you have minions.

you raise some interesting points

Regarding buying barding for my dog, im getting armor really cheap since i put my racial craft bonus into armorsmithing, and the DM is letting me using survival to gather the required materials. So both me and my dog have studded leather armor for a low cost of 7.5gp. Im also getting my bow for free since my int is high enough to take 10 on bowmaking, and again survival to gather the materials. Of course, i had to buy artisan tools for 5gp, but thats more than paid itself off

regarding the scimitar though, i suppose its more there for, i guess, uhh.. cause a scimitar looks cool? i dunno really. I suppose if i dropped the scimitar, i could carry my bow and arrows fine, but -1 to damage D=

You'll never use your sword; I wouldn't bother carrying one. Also, without 16+ Dex being on Medium Load isn't that big of an issue either way.

doesnt medium load drop your movement speed to 20ft though?

Aevio

2011-09-11, 01:03 AM

you raise some interesting points

Regarding buying barding for my dog, im getting armor really cheap since i put my racial craft bonus into armorsmithing, and the DM is letting me using survival to gather the required materials. So both me and my dog have studded leather armor for a low cost of 7.5gp. Im also getting my bow for free since my int is high enough to take 10 on bowmaking, and again survival to gather the materials. Of course, i had to buy artisan tools for 5gp, but thats more than paid itself off

regarding the scimitar though, i suppose its more there for, i guess, uhh.. cause a scimitar looks cool? i dunno really. I suppose if i dropped the scimitar, i could carry my bow and arrows fine, but -1 to damage D=

doesnt medium load drop your movement speed to 20ft though?

To be fair, "starting wealth" is supposed to be used to represent the general amount of gear you have, not as a literal wad of cash to buy each piece of equipment piecemeal at the lowest price you can feasibly manage.

That said, if your DM is allowing it, no reason not to take it for all it's worth, I guess. But in the end, you really don't need the melee weapon (though the Club + Shillelagh thing isn't a bad idea). Sometimes you just end up having to flush away gold that you can't manage to use during your character creation period (especially when you don't have access to magic items).

Crake

2011-09-11, 01:05 AM

To be fair, "starting wealth" is supposed to be used to represent the general amount of gear you have, not as a literal wad of cash to buy each piece of equipment piecemeal at the lowest price you can feasibly manage.

That said, if your DM is allowing it, no reason not to take it for all it's worth, I guess. But in the end, you really don't need the melee weapon (though the Club + Shillelagh thing isn't a bad idea). Sometimes you just end up having to flush away gold that you can't manage to use during your character creation period (especially when you don't have access to magic items).

True, though a character with the ability to make his own gear would likely have more than the average person, no?

Aevio

2011-09-11, 01:05 AM

doesnt medium load drop your movement speed to 20ft though?

Yep. Which is why it's a better idea to try to get yourself under the Light weight limit if possible. If you were starting at level 5, it wouldn't really be a problem, because of Wild Shape. But you're not, and 4 levels of kicking around at 20 ft. move speed sucks.

Crake

2011-09-11, 01:11 AM

Yep. Which is why it's a better idea to try to get yourself under the Light weight limit if possible. If you were starting at level 5, it wouldn't really be a problem, because of Wild Shape. But you're not, and 4 levels of kicking around at 20 ft. move speed sucks.

if only there was some decent medium armor i could use that could justify carrying a medium load

Aevio

2011-09-11, 01:14 AM

True, though a character with the ability to make his own gear would likely have more than the average person, no?

Yeah, but you'd still have to pay for the materials. In-game sure, you can look for materials with your survival skills or whatever, but when we're talking character creation, the starting gold is just an abstract concept of wealth to extrapolate your starting inventory.

Crake

2011-09-11, 01:15 AM

I would put 8 in str and take -3 to all physical scores, for a total of 5 str. You don't need str when you have minions.

i COULD theoretically get my str to 6, then -3 to get a grand total of 3 str, but i dont wanna min max that hard, and i also dont want to play an old character

faceroll

2011-09-11, 01:50 AM

i COULD theoretically get my str to 6, then -3 to get a grand total of 3 str, but i dont wanna min max that hard, and i also dont want to play an old character

You're an elf. No one will be able to tell the difference. I don't like my starting strength to below 5 if I can help it.

Crake

2011-09-11, 01:53 AM

You're an elf. No one will be able to tell the difference. I don't like my starting strength to below 5 if I can help it.

a starting strength of 5 doesnt even let me wear studded leather armor without counting as a medium load and theres no wizard in our group to cast mage armor or something on me (at least not yet, last character is a toss up between a very needed rogue and a very needed arcane caster, probably wizard)

faceroll

2011-09-11, 02:45 AM

a starting strength of 5 doesnt even let me wear studded leather armor without counting as a medium load and theres no wizard in our group to cast mage armor or something on me (at least not yet, last character is a toss up between a very needed rogue and a very needed arcane caster, probably wizard)

I mean if you didn't want to play an old character for RP reasons, not a weak character. Elves all look like hairless pre-pubescent boys.

Eldariel

2011-09-11, 03:51 AM

I mean if you didn't want to play an old character for RP reasons, not a weak character. Elves all look like hairless pre-pubescent boys.

Pre-pubescent? Wouldn't that imply they look actually young at some point? I always found Elves simply looked ageless.

hex0

2011-09-11, 09:35 AM

Only if you have the Unarmed Strikes class feature from multiclassing or Monk's Belt; just taking IUS doesn't give it to you. That said, this is merely RAW; not many DMs go by strict RAW and this is not the most intuitive rule so while talking about a specific game like this here, one still needs to work with the eventuality that the DM will rule against it.

Aren't feats 'abilities drawn from class features' by virtue of gaining them by leveling up? I understand EX attacks from race not working when you change shape but all your feats. You still can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike with IUS.

Eldariel

2011-09-11, 10:32 AM

Aren't feats 'abilities drawn from class features' by virtue of gaining them by leveling up? I understand EX attacks from race not working when you change shape but all your feats. You still can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike with IUS.

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't grant you Unarmed Strike though. It merely modifies what you can do with Unarmed Strike. Basically, you lose your normal Natural Attacks while Wildshaping which Unarmed Strike effectively is. So while you still have IUS, it doesn't do anything since you don't have an Unarmed Strike. Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature however is a class feature so you retain it. But that's super-RAWtastic and not something I'd expect a Random DM™ to go by.

Gwendol

2011-09-11, 11:16 AM

If you really want a scimitar; evoke one!
Cast flame blade to get a weapon that strikes against touch AC, and use PA to bring on the pain.

tyckspoon

2011-09-11, 12:13 PM

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't grant you Unarmed Strike though. It merely modifies what you can do with Unarmed Strike. Basically, you lose your normal Natural Attacks while Wildshaping which Unarmed Strike effectively is. So while you still have IUS, it doesn't do anything since you don't have an Unarmed Strike. Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature however is a class feature so you retain it. But that's super-RAWtastic and not something I'd expect a Random DM™ to go by.

Never run into this idea before, so.. I have to ask because I don't believe it's true (and if it is, I have a new one for the RAW Curios file)- how do you determine that whatever you Wildshape into doesn't *also* have Unarmed Strikes? They're never mentioned in creature statblocks at all unless you're looking at a class-leveled Monk, even among the humanoids that we generally would assume have them.

hex0

2011-09-11, 01:18 PM

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't grant you Unarmed Strike though. It merely modifies what you can do with Unarmed Strike. Basically, you lose your normal Natural Attacks while Wildshaping which Unarmed Strike effectively is. So while you still have IUS, it doesn't do anything since you don't have an Unarmed Strike. Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature however is a class feature so you retain it. But that's super-RAWtastic and not something I'd expect a Random DM™ to go by.

Monk's unarmed strike is a extraordinary class feature and you can treat it as a manufactured or natual weapon when it is advantageous to you. Therefore you can play a monk druid and go all kung-fu panda.

You never lose the ability to do an unarmed strike, wheter you have IUS or not. A wolf can headbutt you if it wants just fine. Read Rules of the Games (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) for all the info...

The only disadvantage to taking IUS instead of being a Monk is that you can't take Improved Natural Attack. Might be worth it to take IUS anyway for more attacks.

Crake

2011-09-11, 02:42 PM

Monk's unarmed strike is a extraordinary class feature and you can treat it as a manufactured or natual weapon when it is advantageous to you. Therefore you can play a monk druid and go all kung-fu panda.

You never lose the ability to do an unarmed strike, wheter you have IUS or not. A wolf can headbutt you if it wants just fine. Read Rules of the Games (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) for all the info...

The only disadvantage to taking IUS instead of being a Monk is that you can't take Improved Natural Attack. Might be worth it to take IUS anyway for more attacks.

im pretty sure theres a clause somewhere in alternate form where you lose Ex abilities that rely on body parts from your old form, of which id say a monks unarmed strike does. If you could convince your DM to allow it, sure, but I really doubt my DM would buy it

Urpriest

2011-09-11, 03:02 PM

im pretty sure theres a clause somewhere in alternate form where you lose Ex abilities that rely on body parts from your old form, of which id say a monks unarmed strike does. If you could convince your DM to allow it, sure, but I really doubt my DM would buy it

The Monk's unarmed strike doesn't rely on your current form though. Every creature with Dex > 0 can make unarmed strikes. The only requirement is being unarmed.

Crake

2011-09-11, 03:22 PM

The Monk's unarmed strike doesn't rely on your current form though. Every creature with Dex > 0 can make unarmed strikes. The only requirement is being unarmed.

sure, if you transform into something like an ape, you could, but making unarmed attacks as a wolf or something would be wildly different. I cant see any DM with a brain accepting that, unless they just dont care

hex0

2011-09-11, 03:23 PM

The Monk's unarmed strike doesn't rely on your current form though. Every creature with Dex > 0 can make unarmed strikes. The only requirement is being unarmed.

Which was my main point. Basically ANY creature can make unarmed strikes.

tyckspoon

2011-09-11, 03:56 PM

sure, if you transform into something like an ape, you could, but making unarmed attacks as a wolf or something would be wildly different. I cant see any DM with a brain accepting that, unless they just dont care

There is a HUGE difference between "no, the rules don't allow that" and "no, I'm making a DM rule that I don't want that in my game because I think that's silly." If you're going to claim something doesn't actually work, you need a reference for why.

Greenish

2011-09-11, 04:34 PM

sure, if you transform into something like an ape, you could, but making unarmed attacks as a wolf or something would be wildly different. I cant see any DM with a brain accepting that, unless they just dont careWhen making blanket statements like that, first slap yourself in the back of your head, then realize that your way of playing the game is not the only right one.

There are DMs out there who both have a brain and care about their game, but aren't opposed to the idea of Kung Fu bear. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they're doing something wrong.

hex0

2011-09-11, 04:37 PM

There is a HUGE difference between "no, the rules don't allow that" and "no, I'm making a DM rule that I don't want that in my game because I think that's silly." If you're going to claim something doesn't actually work, you need a reference for why.

Exactly. Saying wolves can't headbutt you then bite you is silly. Look at the list of standard actions that can be done by any character and say "Oh, you can't make bull rush" is the same as "oh, you can't make unarmed strikes".

You don't lose feats when you wildshape so why not have IUS to add attacks that are extremely simple in the rules to your array. I'm sure a wolf could kick you. My dog kicks me all the time.

Crake

2011-09-11, 08:34 PM

Exactly. Saying wolves can't headbutt you then bite you is silly. Look at the list of standard actions that can be done by any character and say "Oh, you can't make bull rush" is the same as "oh, you can't make unarmed strikes".

You don't lose feats when you wildshape so why not have IUS to add attacks that are extremely simple in the rules to your array. I'm sure a wolf could kick you. My dog kicks me all the time.

From the dnd glossary:

unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

If your hand is a claw, makes it hard to not have a weapon in your hand, since your hand itself is considered a weapon

Greenish

2011-09-11, 08:37 PM

Wolf doesn't have claw attack. Their paws are no more weapons than human's hands.

Crake

2011-09-11, 08:43 PM

Wolf doesn't have claw attack. Their paws are no more weapons than human's hands.

I suppose

also, what i said earlier, the bit about the DM not caring encompassed DMs that liked the idea of kung fu pandas, no disrespect to those DMs, I would probably fall into this category

But i know that my current DM wouldnt allow it, hes a serious DM, so stuff like that probably wouldnt be allowed

Aevio

2011-09-11, 08:44 PM

From the dnd glossary:

If your hand is a claw, makes it hard to not have a weapon in your hand, since your hand itself is considered a weapon

The Unarmed Attack class feature also states that you can strike with "either fist, elbows, or knees." And, believe it or not, animals have elbows and knees, even if they don't have fists.

Crake

2011-09-11, 08:46 PM

The Unarmed Attack class feature also states that you can strike with "either fist, elbows, or knees." And, believe it or not, animals have elbows and knees, even if they don't have fists.

quadrupeds would have a hard time attacking with elbows and knees. If i cant explain how it would happen to my DM, he probably wouldnt allow it. RAW doesnt cut it for him, it needs to make sense too

Aevio

2011-09-11, 08:48 PM

quadrupeds would have a hard time attacking with elbows and knees. If i cant explain how it would happen to my DM, he probably wouldnt allow it. RAW doesnt cut it for him, it needs to make sense too

I wasn't stating why he should allow it, I was stating why it works in RAW.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's silly too, and were I to DM I definitely wouldn't allow it for the same reasons. But speaking strictly from a technical standpoint, it IS within the rules to allow it.

Crake

2011-09-11, 08:50 PM

I wasn't stating why he should allow it, I was stating why it works in RAW.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's silly too, and were I to DM I definitely wouldn't allow it for the same reasons. But speaking strictly from a technical standpoint, it IS within the rules to allow it.

I was never arguing it was against RAW lol, I was arguing that it made no sense and thus my DM wouldnt allow it, so no point considering it for my druid

Greenish

2011-09-11, 08:52 PM

Well, IUS is still required for Imp. Grapple, as well as for doing lethal damage with grappling (at least, without taking a penalty).

hex0

2011-09-11, 08:55 PM

But i know that my current DM wouldnt allow it, hes a serious DM, so stuff like that probably wouldnt be allowed

Again, if it is a legitimate and simple part of the rules that you can mix unarmed attacks and natural weapons why would any DM be against it. Players are supposed to maximize the number of attacks they can make to have a higher chance of hitting with at least one of them. This is why a Minotaur's stat block for full attack is Greataxe AND Gore. By this logic then the players should protest against the gore attack if they can't headbutt and bite as a wolf.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:06 PM

Again, if it is a legitimate and simple part of the rules that you can mix unarmed attacks and natural weapons why would any DM be against it. Players are supposed to maximize the number of attacks they can make to have a higher chance of hitting with at least one of them. This is why a Minotaur's stat block for full attack is Greataxe AND Gore. By this logic then the players should protest against the gore attack if they can't headbutt and bite as a wolf.

Because allowing a bear to claw, claw, bite, then stand up on their back legs to elbow the guy in the face, then knee him in the groin, reeks of over-the-top anime shenanigans, that's why.

He's already admitted that it's RAW-legal. He's also said that his DM won't allow it. That should really be the end of the discussion.

hex0

2011-09-11, 09:11 PM

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:14 PM

I see your point, but as an intelligent creature that takes on the physical form of a bear...you are smarter than the average bear. So you would know that you can use your whole body as a weapon in battle instead of just using your natural weapons to feed.

Then next time you magically shapeshift into a giant grizzly bear, please feel free to come and tell us how easy it is to engage in standard bipedal hand-to-hand combat.

Greenish

2011-09-11, 09:14 PM

Because allowing a bear to claw, claw, bite, then stand up on their back legs to elbow the guy in the face, then knee him in the groin, reeks of over-the-top anime shenanigans, that's why.The unarmed strikes would come first, then the claw/claw/bite all as secondaries.

Also, bears often stand on their hind legs, and "anime" is entirely meaningless as a descriptor.

[Edit]:
Then next time you turn into a grizzly bear, please feel free to come and tell us how easy it is to engage in standard bipedal hand-to-hand combat.You probably don't. Why would you? You just body slam the enemy, then maul it.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:15 PM

The unarmed strikes would come first, then the claw/claw/bite all as secondaries.

Also, bears often stand on their hind legs, and "anime" is entirely meaningless as a descriptor.
And I hear...

WOOSH.

Greenish

2011-09-11, 09:17 PM

And I hear...

WOOSH.Just because I disagree with your point (and like nitpicking) doesn't mean I don't understand your point. But if pretending that's the case makes you feel more intelligent, go ahead.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:23 PM

Just because I disagree with your point (and like nitpicking) doesn't mean I don't understand your point. But if pretending that's the case makes you feel more intelligent, go ahead.

I once had a friend that enjoyed nitpicking. Playing devil's advocate was one of his favorite pasttimes.

I couldn't spend more than an hour with the guy before I wanted to punch him in the face.

Big Fau

2011-09-11, 09:29 PM

Then next time you magically shapeshift into a giant grizzly bear, please feel free to come and tell us how easy it is to engage in standard bipedal hand-to-hand combat.

Your argument fell appart when you tried to apply logic to a class that can turn into a bear. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KungFuPanda)

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:32 PM

Your argument fell appart when you tried to apply logic to a class that can turn into a bear. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KungFuPanda)

My argument held water the moment the other poster tried to logically explain why a bear should be allowed to perform bipedal combat.

I'm seriously tired of arguing with people that seem to get a rise out of being contrary. You know what the hell I'm trying to say, stop being a jerk.

Greenish

2011-09-11, 09:36 PM

I once had a friend that enjoyed nitpicking. Playing devil's advocate was one of his favorite pasttimes.

I couldn't spend more than an hour with the guy before I wanted to punch him in the face.It's hardly my fault you lack the taste for the finer pleasures of life. :smalltongue:

My argument held water the moment the other poster tried to logically explain why a bear should be allowed to perform bipedal combat.Who says it has to be "bipedal combat"? If you have entire societies where people more or less routinely turn into animals and live in the midst of a very violent world, it's almost certain that they'd have developed martial arts to use with shapechanging.

I'm seriously tired of arguing with people that seem to get a rise out of being contrary. You know what the hell I'm trying to say, stop being a jerk.We know what you're trying to say, and we disagree with you. Disagreeing with you is not the same as being a jerk.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 09:50 PM

Midnight_v

2011-09-11, 09:59 PM

I once had a friend that enjoyed nitpicking. Playing devil's advocate was one of his favorite pasttimes.

I couldn't spend more than an hour with the guy before I wanted to punch him in the face.
Wow... the internets must make you feel kinda impotent too then , its FILLED with people who nitpick, and have great attention to detail, and fight just as hard for what they think, as you do.

Who says it has to be "bipedal combat"? If you have entire societies where people more or less routinely turn into animals and live in the midst of a very violent world, it's almost certain that they'd have developed martial arts to use with shapechanging
More so... wrestling. . . a bear could I don't know "bearhug" you and deal more damage if it was using the tech-ed-out BJJ bearhug attack.

I do disapprove of people claiming versimilitude (and too anime for that matter) as being the reason for no allowing things raw. I know a dm who banned the greatsword, but not until he realized everyone was using swords like the one in "berserk" and not somekind of medival flamberge. . . wth...

Greenish

2011-09-11, 10:11 PM

Telling somebody they're wrong when discussing something of personal taste/preference IS being a jerk.Even if something is a personal preference doesn't mean your justification for it is above criticism.

A bear using unarmed strikes doesn't have to be "silly", and it doesn't have to make the game or the DM "silly".

Aevio

2011-09-11, 10:15 PM

Even if something is a personal preference doesn't mean your justification for it is above criticism.

A bear using unarmed strikes doesn't have to be "silly", and it doesn't have to make the game or the DM "silly".

How silly of me. I forgot this is the internet. Where having an opinion is license to get verbally attacked by people who enjoy the freedom of anonymity.

Thank you for giving me a reason to finally put somebody on my ignore list.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-09-11, 10:19 PM

My argument held water the moment the other poster tried to logically explain why a bear should be allowed to perform bipedal combat.

I'm seriously tired of arguing with people that seem to get a rise out of being contrary. You know what the hell I'm trying to say, stop being a jerk.

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1003/fighting-dirty-bears-ball-kick-demotivational-poster-1267719866.jpg

There a Bear clearly punching...another bear.

Greenish

2011-09-11, 10:33 PM

How silly of me. I forgot this is the internet. Where having an opinion is license to get verbally attacked by people who enjoy the freedom of anonymity.Disagreeing with you is not "verbally attacking you", and the reason we disagree with you is not because you have an opinion, but that we disagree with your reasoning for said opinion. :smallamused:

hex0

2011-09-11, 10:41 PM

Disagreeing with you is not "verbally attacking you", and the reason we disagree with you is not because you have an opinion, but that we disagree with your reasoning for said opinion. :smallamused:

My thoughts exactly. Fighting unarmed doesn't have to be bipedal. For example if you fought a wolf wearing a muzzle it would try to headbutt you.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 10:45 PM

My thoughts exactly. Fighting unarmed doesn't have to be bipedal. For example if you fought a wolf wearing a muzzle it would try to headbutt you.

Unarmed Strike doesn't allow for headbutting, so that's invalid. Headbutt and Slam are natural attacks, not "unarmed attacks."

Greenish

2011-09-11, 10:47 PM

Unarmed Strike doesn't allow for headbutting, so that's invalid.Really?
Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following…
It seems your problem is that you don't know what "unarmed strike" actually entails. Here's a hint: it's not just boxing.

Crake

2011-09-11, 11:11 PM

ahh, my thread has turned into a discussion about beats and unarmed strikes! XD

Greenish

2011-09-11, 11:16 PM

ahh, my thread has turned into a discussion about beats and unarmed strikes! XDTo be fair, it started as a thread about building a core martial character, so we haven't drifted that far.

Besides, you're a druid now, it's not like you need any more help. :smalltongue:

Big Fau

2011-09-11, 11:42 PM

My argument held water the moment the other poster tried to logically explain why a bear should be allowed to perform bipedal combat.

Who said anything about fighting while on two legs? Did you know there's an entire combat style that is remarkably similar to breakdancing IRL? Or that dozens of martial arts have katas that can be performed while lying on your back (and for Judo, require you to be prone in order to work)?

Your argument isn't exactly sound, especially because bears do in fact know how to hit you when they are standing upright. They probably don't enjoy doing so, as it's largely a scare tactic used to make them look more intimidating to their opponents, but they can just straight-up pimp slap you into next week.

And if that isn't Unarmed Combat, nothing is.

The only thing stopping bears from learning jujitsu is the fact that they aren't sentient enough to understand why they should learn it. We'd be screwed something fierce if they could.

Aevio

2011-09-11, 11:51 PM

Who said anything about fighting while on two legs? Did you know there's an entire combat style that is remarkably similar to breakdancing IRL? Or that dozens of martial arts have katas that can be performed while lying on your back (and for Judo, require you to be prone in order to work)?

Your argument isn't exactly sound, especially because bears do in fact know how to hit you when they are standing upright. They probably don't enjoy doing so, as it's largely a scare tactic used to make them look more intimidating to their opponents, but they can just straight-up pimp slap you into next week.

And if that isn't Unarmed Combat, nothing is.

The only thing stopping bears from learning jujitsu is the fact that they aren't sentient enough to understand why they should learn it. We'd be screwed something fierce if they could.

I think it needs to be restated that, according to the Unarmed Strike class ability (which is what we're talking about), unarmed attacks encompass strikes with fists, feet, elbows, and knees.

While shapeshifted into a bear, a druid does not have fists. Now please, feel free to describe to me how a bear would remain on all four legs and still make a proper strike with their feet, elbows, or knees.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying it is not possible. Nor am I saying that RAW disallows it. I am simply asking for you to describe to me how this would logically work without the animal rearing up onto 2 legs and going all kung-fu panda.

Gwendol

2011-09-12, 02:17 AM

First of all an unarmed strike can be done with any part of the body, which means that a hip check, body slam, or head butt are all valid attacks (for a monk).
Taking the example of the bear standing on all four; it can headbutt, strike with its forearm ("karate chop"), kick back with its hind legs, hip check, elbow strike. I'm sure the list can be made longer.
Bears however, like to fight standing up: they have no problem holding their balance while doing so, it gives them a height advantage, they look more frightening, they can strike with both "arms" freely (rather than just the one at a time), and they can engage in grappling.

I can see the point about unarmed strikes being disallowed for some types of animals on the basis of being inefficient/impossible but the bear is not one of them.

Killer Angel

2011-09-12, 04:10 AM

How silly of me. I forgot this is the internet. Where having an opinion is license to get verbally attacked by people who enjoy the freedom of anonymity.

Thank you for giving me a reason to finally put somebody on my ignore list.

You can certainly do so, but let me say one thing: I'm not involved in the current discussion, so my pov is probably more objective, and it seems to me that you're taking it too personally.

Edit: it's also an option, if you really feel "insulted", to report the offending post, and let someone else to judge it. Escalations are frowned upon. :smallwink: