Low Magic, E6?

[cfalcon]

I have a friend who is going to run a low magic campaign at some point in the future. His first idea involved basically taking a katana to the existing core casters, and eliminating pretty much everything else. I poked my head into the 4ed forum and asked if it would work- their opinion was mostly yes, but make sure to put the mechanical bits back in.

However, my friend was less pleased with the idea of 4ed, having never tried it and being in the situation of making a game for a bunch of people who, except me, knew just about nothing about it.

So then I decided to point him in the direction of E6, and he sort of likes that. He envisioned a bit more magic than E6 has (he was thinking more like "E8"), but I pointed out that, while fine, there's a lot of second and third order effects of a change like that. At the moment, he's tentatively planning to head in this direction now (E6 as written).


So, playgrounders... has anyone tried E6? Briefly (and you can find this on a D&D wiki) E6 levels normally up to level 6. At level 6, you then only gain feats, about at every 5000 XP. A couple new feats are introduced, and the game seeks to reward single classing with a "capstone feat" for each class that grants some ability that would normally not be available until later.

Am I missing anything here? Note that we normally play with no Tome of Battle / 9 Swords, so if everything you know/have experienced that makes E6 good (or bad) comes out of that book, please note that in your post.

My questions:

1- Is one playstyle really super rewarded?
2- Do all physical guys eventually become very similar?
3- Is the fact that only full BAB guys get extra attacks generally considered a good feature of this?
4- Do some classes really step on this?
5- Do some classes really get blown up by this?

Obviously, we'd like a balanced game- basically, has anyone played E6 and have words about it? I don't want to be sitting at a table in 2014 and have everyone think I led the DM astray!

[Fouredged Sword]

The best party in E6 is kinds like DnD, but with animal companions.

Druid 6 (with Wild cohort) (Tank and healing and Utility casting)
Druid 6 (with Wild cohort) (Tank and Healing and Utility casting
Wizard (animal champanion varrient) (with Wild cohort) (Utility casting + DD spells)
Kobold domain Cleric (with wild cohort) (Trapfinding + party face + tank + heals)

Then you count the 7 attack dogs (from cohort and animal companions) for extra power and you are quite powerful

[Alaris]

I hate to ask this... but what is E6? Sounds like E should mean something, like representing a word, but you didn't elaborate upon it at all in the post, and I have a feeling typing E6 into google won't result in much.

[Lapak]

I hate to ask this... but what is E6? Sounds like E should mean something, like representing a word, but you didn't elaborate upon it at all in the post, and I have a feeling typing E6 into google won't result in much.E is for Epic. Once you hit 6th level in this paradigm, you're effectively an Epic character and stop advancing by level.

[cfalcon]

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)

As I mentioned, it's on the wiki, and in other places.


Fouredged Sword points out that animal companions are very powerful. It's unlikely he would allow wizards with animal companion kits, nor would he allow a kobold domain (though he might have some domain that does, in fact, create pets).

But what I get out of that post is that animal companions, or presumably anything that can get a pet, is really super strong. I would assume that this also means that druids, even in this sort of limited environment, are quite powerful (druids are something he will have). I'll bring that up, thank you.

[Essence_of_War]

The e6 source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

I think E6 is short for "ECL 6", which indicates the maximum level characters are allowed to reach under this system.

Swordsage'd by Lapak :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

As for the animal companions, it's not just them. Anybody with a smidgen of Handle Animal can buy a riding dog or several, and riding dogs will be meaningful combatants even up to level 6. So "swarm the enemy with my hounds" is a viable, if annoying, strategy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) with Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) can still take Weapon Specialization, the Fighter capstone, and Melee Weapon Mastery and other +8 BAB feats. With TWF and ITWF, probably Weapon Finesse, a small size race, Craven, and +4 to attack and damage from (Greater) Focus, Specialization, and Melee Weapon Mastery, plus Improved Crit, it's one of the higher damage builds available in E6.

Mystic Ranger from Dragon magazine 336 gets 0-3rd level spells at 6th level, on the Ranger chassis for BAB, saves, skills, HP, etc. He loses proficiency in melee martial weapons, but it can be combined with Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) to great effect. Take Extra Wild Shape and you can be in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) for 24 hours per day. He can take Natural Spell and cast in that form, and with Sword of the Arcane Order (and Magical Training to get a spellbook and the ability to put spells into it) he can prepare and cast any Wizard spell of 0-3rd level from his Ranger spell slots. Probably the most powerful character available in E6 when looking at a combination of combat value and versatility.

A Kobold can cast 5th level Wizard spells, and with one flaw will know four 5th and eight 4th level spells regardless of availability, and he doesn't use a spellbook so there's no risk of losing them. Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 4/ Mindbender 1, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Get Dragonwrought and Collegiate Wizard at 1st, along with probably Combat Reflexes. Prohibited schools should be Evocation and Enchantment, get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF in PH2. Use the Draconic Rite of Passage to gain Charm Person as a spell-like ability to qualify for Mindbender. Battle Sorcerer grants proficiency in armor spikes, Stalwart Sorcerer grants proficiency and Weapon Focus with a Glaive. Mindbender allows him to take Mindsight. Spellhoarding grants Eschew Materials and Scribe Scroll. He'll need to get Draconic Reserve at 3rd level for the Greater Rite. Spellhoarding trades his Sorcerer spellcasting ability for Wizard spellcasting ability of equal level, so the drawbacks to known and daily spells for Stalwart Battle Sorcerer are negated. His Sorcerer spellcasting ability is 4 (levels) +2 (Loredrake) +1 (Greater Rite) = 7, his Wizard spellcasting ability is 2 (Wizard 1/ Mindbender 1) +7 (Spellhoarding) = 9th level. He gained Spellhoarding prior to 5th level, so every effective level to Sorcerer after that is a retroactive Wizard level for spellcasting, including gaining spells known. With Collegiate Wizard he gained four 4th level spells known at his 7th and 8th effective Wizard levels, and four 5th level spells known at his 9th effective Wizard level. Spellhoarding allows him scribe his spells onto his scales (one spell occupies one scale) instead of into a book, referred to as his spellhoard. He has so many scales that there's basically no limit to the capacity of his spellhoard, and he can copy the same spell multiple times to fuel other abilities. He can cast a spell from his spellhoard as though from a scroll, sacrificing that copy of the spell. He can sacrifice spells from his spellhoard to substitute costly material and XP components of spells. If he counterspells an opponent's spell and sacrifices a gem of a certain minimum value, he can add the countered spell directly into his spellhoard (and thus gain non-wizard spells). Yes, a 6th level Kobold can cast spells as a 9th level Wizard, and he has Mindsight, improved HP via the Sorcerer variants, and can AoO like a boss.

Note that post-errata, a magic item's caster level is not a prerequisite for creating that item. Assuming Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) can be used to duplicate higher level spells in a way that's impractical for combat, an E6 character (or several working together) could craft pretty much any magic item in the game that they could meet the feat prerequisites for. Creatures with spell-like abilities, particularly outsiders, can use that caster level to qualify for item creation feats such as Craft Rod, Forge Ring, and Craft Staff, and Incantation could be used to summon such outsiders via Planar Ally/Binding, thus any item in the game could be crafted in E6 given the proper resources. The Midgard Dwarves in Frostburn can craft any item of the wondrous, ring, or arms/armor category as though they possessed all the prerequisites to do so, which includes epic items, intelligent items, and even artifacts. An Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) can be upgraded as though you possess all the proper item creation feats, so a +1 Light Mace could be upgraded to possess properties of a magic rod, or a +1 Quarterstaff could be turned into a magical staff containing spells. Thus any magic item in the game could potentially exist in an E6 setting.

[Fouredged Sword]

Druids are strong with animal companions, wildshape (at the end of thier build), battlefield control casting, and healing. I would tone them down as a DM or suggest something else to the player.

Clerics are strong VS undead as turning undead is still stong at lower levels and doesn't fade as readily in E6 when HD is still =< CR

Wizards and Sorcerers are weaker than normal, the HD is painful. Mind you that they will still end x encouters per day with a single spell, but still.

fighters fair better than normal games. tripping is more viable, as the game caps before flight becomes ubiquitus.

TOB destroies everything, crusader doubly so.

[Hiro Protagonest]

TOB destroies everything, crusader doubly so.

...How? By crusaders doing their job and and absorbing all the damage? What about status effect spells? SA fighters and rogues that flank? And is the warblade really that OP when held next to the spirit lion totem barbarian 2/fighter 4? Is swordsage so powerful next to factotum?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, Lion Spirit Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/ Warblade 4 can still get Iron Heart Surge and a 3rd level stance, and is one of the better melee builds available.

A Fighter 6 with Dungeoncrasher and a large size race (LA is replaced by lower point buy for ability scores in E6) for Knock-Back is particularly dangerous, especially if he can fly and dungeoncrash opponents against the ground.

A Pixie Warlock is totally legit, your ability scores would be Str 4, Dex 16, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14, but you'd get the permanent invisibility, flight, SR 21, and other racial benefits. Get Flyby Attack and you can end every round behind total cover, and nobody will ever know where you are.

A Crusader with Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is virtually impervious to physical damage, and between his delayed damage pool, Stone Power, and healing strikes it will take a considerable amount of spell damage to make him worry. Status effect attacks are good, but Crusader 6 gives him nothing over Crusader 5 so he should dip one Warblade level and keep Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought readied to get 9+Con bonus in place of a Reflex or Will save, and can even take Martial Study for Iron Heart Surge. (Mineral Warrior is granted via a 6th level spell called Mineralize Warrior, but it can be accomplished via an Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm).)

Two spells in Frostburn, Snowsight (Druid 1, Winter domain 1) and Obscuring Snow (Cleric 2, Druid 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2), can make the game simply unfair. Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend (the kobold can craft them, or a summoned outsider can contribute the feat) and a few 1st level Pearls of Power. Put Extended Snowsight on the whole party, using the pearls to only use one spell slot, it lasts an hour/level normally for a 12 hour duration. Every character who's capable of casting (Extended) Obscuring Snow does so, now there's a 30-ft. radius of snowstorm around every caster which grants concealment to adjacent squares and completely blocks all vision beyond 5 ft. Thanks to Snowsight your whole party can see right through the effect. Fireball and Gust of Wind can destroy part of the spell's effect, but it will just reform within a round as long as the spell is still active. Dispel Magic could be used as an area effect, but if it misses the spell's point of origin (the caster) then it doesn't dispel the spell. Dispel Magic is a 20 ft. radius, Obscuring Snow is a 30 ft. radius, and there would be multiple instances of Obscuring Snow overlapping so it would be difficult to determine where each one is centered.

[Calimehter]

I've run such a campaign, and we had fun with it. I had an old 2nd ed. homebrew campaign setting that did not 'port' over well to 3.X due to it being a low-magic setting (by the standards of 3.X anyways and its much more reliable magic and magic item creation rules), but E6 allowed us to resurrect the world and relive the good old days. It wasn't quite the same, but it was much closer.

In my experience, spellcasters in general are still quite powerful, but they don't quite get up to the level of making the non-spellcasters into obsolescent tag-alongs such as can happen in 3.X played out to higher levels.

One of the strenghts of E6 IMO is that PCs and NPCs almost never reach a level where they can simply *ignore* large numbers of low level threats, even if they outclass them individually. However, as others have mentioned, that also means that allies of any sort can be more powerful than expected simply by virtue of being there and providing extra actions/targets even if very low level. Whether it be companions assigned by class features (i.e. the Druid mentioned already), add-ons from the Leadership feat, or simply allies acquired by skill checks, roleplaying, or converting WBL into mercenaries, you need to factor them into account when planning encounters and challenges.

--------------------------------

B.F.'s very informative posts nonwithstanding, many E6 campaigns will not allow access to higher level spells and items, given that one of the main objectives of most campaigns that adopt the E6 rules (including the OP's DM if I read his first sentence correctly) is to tone down the craziness that is higher level magic and what it does to characters and campaign worlds. That's not to say that you can't play E6 "wide open" and treat it as an optimization challenge, its just that many people put in the additional hard caps on magic to better fit with the theme and playstyle they want to experience.

As a side note to the OP, you might want to suggest that to your DM that he puts in such hard caps if he does want to go "low magic" as you mentioned.

It is *also* worth noting that magic items can still be quite common even with hard spell caps, even if the items are now largely potions and scrolls and the like. Depending on how many 5-6th level wizards there are, you may even be able to get at wands and thus play the whole "I've obsoleted whole character roles with my [insert class feature] on a stick" game. If you don't want that, you have to make spellcasters rare and/or add some costs or other restrictions to the magic item creation process.

If you do want to include some high level magic but would prefer it to be used as a rare 'plot device' rather than a tactical tool for everyday use, the Incantation rules from UA have already been mentioned, though you may not want to allow them to tie into everyday magic item creation. The Magic Places/Events rules from DMG II are also worth a look.

edit: hukd on phoniks wreked mi speling

[cfalcon]

I had an old 2nd ed. homebrew campaign setting that did not 'port' over well to 3.X due to it being a low-magic setting (by the standards of 3.X anyways and its much more reliable magic and magic item creation rules), but E6 allowed us to resurrect the world and relive the good old days. It wasn't quite the same, but it was much closer.

I'm pretty sure he'll consider that a pretty good recommendation. I've linked him this thread, perhaps he'll register and comment.


Whether it be companions assigned by class features (i.e. the Druid mentioned already), add-ons from the Leadership feat, or simply allies acquired by skill checks, roleplaying, or converting WBL into mercenaries, you need to factor them into account when planning encounters and challenges.

I'm suspecting that the only ones on the list here he'll look at are animal companions and animals for purchase. Still, there are plenty of scenarios that a "houndmaster" can't bring his animals to play in, and some class will always be the strongest (and given our predilection for running pretty close to core, druid is normally pretty dang strong).

Did you actually see animal companions unbalance things? Do you feel that they should be nerfed in an E6 game?


B.F.'s very informative posts nonwithstanding, many E6 campaigns will not allow access to higher level spells and items, given that one of the main objectives of most campaigns that adopt the E6 rules (including the OP's DM if I read his first sentence correctly) is to tone down the craziness that is higher level magic and what it does to characters and campaign worlds.

Precisely. The first two words of the topic are low magic, and I mentioned that we don't play with 9 Swords. However, he's still providing examples of what some top-op builds are, and those are indeed very helpful- I would have been unable to come up with those on my own.

My friend has a world he wants us to play in when it is complete, and I would be sort of surprised if he even bothered to include kobolds. I'm pretty sure he left out all the broken kobold synergy :P


A Fighter 6 with Dungeoncrasher and a large size race (LA is replaced by lower point buy for ability scores in E6) for Knock-Back is particularly dangerous, especially if he can fly and dungeoncrash opponents against the ground.

Nice. It's good to see that capstone is valuable, it looked strong to me.

However- since he's building a more typical fantasy world... his stand on races is pretty much, dwarves and humans and elves. And the elves might want to wear a hat so they aren't obviously elves. It's possible that he might allow some monster races (but unlikely, as they would be limited in the story aspect), but I doubt we would want to get into how LA works.



Thanks everyone! I'll keep checking and posting, this is really great responses!

[cfalcon]

Additionally: High-Op responses may not be helpful to us directly, but they are helpful to someone else who will read this thread eventually and have access to that stuff. So it's good too.

[Zem]

I'm pretty sure he'll consider that a pretty good recommendation. I've linked him this thread, perhaps he'll register and comment.
Oh, hi there.

I suppose I could have registered earlier and made this thread, but that would have required substantially more work. Also, it took me about 9 tries to figure out what the damned squiggly letters were so it knew I wasn't a spammer.

The last two campaigns I have run were Forgotten Realms. I like it because the players are not, for the most part, gamers. They enjoy sitting around a table and drinking more than their wives would typically consider appropriate. However, they have all read some of the books, played some games, etc, so they have a reasonable grasp of the world and we don't have to start from scratch.

The problem is the high magic. I found I had to stretch things to make the players relevant. In world where Khelban Blackstaff sets up shop in Waterdeep, why the hell wouldn't he stop the evil people from taking over? We made it work, and everyone had a good time, but it has still always bugged me. The problem is high level magic changes the world. If I simply make a world with no or extremely few high level wizards, then when the characters get to be high level themselves, they can conquer the world. That's a downer.

So I want to make the sort of world you actually read about in fantasy books. There are isolated cultures, and not everyone has a world map in their pocket. People don't know what lurks in the dark forest, but it sure as hell isn't a floating city sent forward in time from an ancient empire complete with talking lizards, shades, and angry fungus. There are knights, and they may go on quests. A man in armor is not simply there because not everyone could play the wizard. Wizards, in fact, may find themselves getting lynched if they aren't careful about where they mention magic.

My goal is to make something between Authurian legends, original Goths, and the fine works of Raymond Feist (excluding Pug and Tomas).

My players will not optimize. Even when they try to min/max they just look adorable. The problem is my dear friend cfalcon here, who will always seek to break anything. But even he would say "You should ban this because otherwise I'm going to break this and ruin your game," so I'm not that worried.

I'm not moving past PHB, PHB2, and the Complete series.

I just want to get an idea of whether this will be fun from a role playing perspective, fun from a beating the **** out of bad things perspective, balanced so everyone feels like they can contribute, and whether it really limits the silliness of the high level magical effects. Typically my players advance to around 14-16th level before they, you know, save the world as they know it.



Oh, and screw kobolds.

[Calimehter]

The problem is the high magic. I found I had to stretch things to make the players relevant. In world where Khelban Blackstaff sets up shop in Waterdeep, why the hell wouldn't he stop the evil people from taking over? We made it work, and everyone had a good time, but it has still always bugged me. The problem is high level magic changes the world. If I simply make a world with no or extremely few high level wizards, then when the characters get to be high level themselves, they can conquer the world. That's a downer.

Well, E6 will very much help with this problem. 'Epic' wizards in E6 are powerful and dangerous, but they are nothing like the world-benders of FR. They cannot simply wander out on their lonesome and take on the world using naught but their own personal magical power. To do that, they would need to make alliances, form armies, and do all the stuff that a more 'traditional' megalomaniacs (i.e. the ones from fantasy books and/or real life) would require for world domination.


I just want to get an idea of whether this will be fun from a role playing perspective, fun from a beating the **** out of bad things perspective, balanced so everyone feels like they can contribute, and whether it really limits the silliness of the high level magical effects. Typically my players advance to around 14-16th level before they, you know, save the world as they know it.

The answer to all those questions is yes :smallsmile: . . . with the caveat that saving the world at 6th level feels a little different than saving it at 14th-16th, even in a "low op" or 2nd ed. setting. See the above comments about taking over the world - same applies to saving it.

@cfalcon - The one druid companion I ran did not break balance, but that was largely an artifact of the specific place in the setting they were adventuring in. The short story is that they were based a large theocratic city in which there would have been social reprecussions to throwing a lot of druidic power all over the place. He went with a more subtle approach, which meshed nicely with the abilities of his lower-tier companions.

[Rixx]

E6 is wonderful, and I highly recommend it. It really reigns in the ridiculous power level that 3.5/PF games get to without keeping your characters from doing really cool things. A level 6 fighter could kill a mob of 20 men all on his own, and a level 6 wizard can fly above the battlefield and rain fireballs down on armies - really, the only ones who suffer under E6 are the full casters, and they only "suffer" so much as they "can't completely split the world wide open all alone".

[cfalcon]

My players will not optimize. Even when they try to min/max they just look adorable. The problem is my dear friend cfalcon here, who will always seek to break anything. But even he would say "You should ban this because otherwise I'm going to break this and ruin your game," so I'm not that worried.

Normally, when I run, I create a reasonably complete list of allowed stuff, and a specific list of banned things. I've played with people from reasonably differing sides of the optimization spectrum, and I normally hope that they will all at least be able to enjoy themselves- this means that, within reason, some min/maxing is fun. Zem's stuff is definitely a smaller suite than mine, but mine is far smaller than the general broadly assumed "include everything" that some folks assume was intended (even when my custom additions are added in).


The general impression I get here is that E6 is going to work for this purpose.



..and that I should finally play that druid.

[Fouredged Sword]

The thing that E6 did for me more than anything else was it made dragons a big deal again.

Normal DnD
Ok, a adult dragon is a lot like a 20th level wizard. The get spells, AOE damage and due to shapechange, a powerful form. Dragons lost their special nitch in the world of awesome power.

In E6 dragons are a big deal again. They can make the items nobody else can. They have magic beyond mortal ken once more. They change the world around them and armies would be hard pressed to fight them.

It was a great change for me.

[Talya]

Oh, and screw kobolds.

I'd really rather not.

[cfalcon]

"Once you go scaly, you'll be back daily"

[Curious]

"Once you go scaly, you'll be back daily"

I lol'd harder than I should have. :smallredface:

[cfalcon]

Original here of course: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html

And it was a female Lizardman.