PF RPG Magus: Underwhelming?

[TheArsenal]

Cause thats the impression ive had. All its powers last a minute at best and it lacks allot of great permanent immunities/ abilities other classes get as toppers.

[Mahtobedis]

I've been playing with a magus and his damage output is something to be reconed with.

Just as an example of what he does

Keen scimitar +fire damage +cold damage using his arcane pool

intensify spell + lightning grasp + a trait that makes it so that he subtracts one from the level of lighting grasp when he uses metamagic for a level 1 10d6 spell.

Full attack get some crits then hit with his intensified lightning grasp through his sword and maybe crit

[Hiro Protagonest]

At first level, he has 2 HP less and one point of attack less than a fighter. In exchange, he gets Arcane Pool (so no more difference between attacks) and bard casting with a better spell list. They can enter Eldritch Knight one level later than a wizard/fighter, but get more HP than them. If compared to wizards, yes, they're underwhelming, but anything not tier 1 is underwhelming compared to tier 1, and magi are tier 3.

[Volos]

First of all, this should be in the 3.5 forum since it is related.


I've been playing with a magus and his damage output is something to be reconed with.

Just as an example of what he does

Keen scimitar +fire damage +cold damage using his arcane pool

intensify spell + lightning grasp + a trait that makes it so that he subtracts one from the level of lighting grasp when he uses metamagic for a level 1 10d6 spell.

Full attack get some crits then hit with his intensified lightning grasp through his sword and maybe crit

Your fire and cold damage would counter each other since they are happening simultaniously. If you did 5 fire and 4 cold it would ballance out to 1 fire net instead of the 9 one might expect.

Otherwise you are correct, the Magus has the ability to stack spell damage into melee attacks fairly seemlessly. As a PC it may be a bit underwhelming but as a NPC it is a terrifying class. A PC would have to ballance how many of his Arcane Pool points he spends or what spells he casts throughout his average adventuring day. A NPC Magus could just wait for trouble (The PCs) to rear its head and then expend all of his resources at once in order to do the greatest amount of damage possible in the shortest amount of time possible.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Your fire and cold damage would counter each other since they are happening simultaniously. If you did 5 fire and 4 cold it would ballance out to 1 fire net instead of the 9 one might expect.

Where'd you get that from?

[BlueInc]

Cause thats the impression ive had. All its powers last a minute at best and it lacks allot of great permanent immunities/ abilities other classes get as toppers.

Didn't you ever read the Hobbit and think "Man, Gandalf casts spells and he has a sword! That's so cool!"

That's what the Magus does. Really well.

Edit:


Your fire and cold damage would counter each other since they are happening simultaniously. If you did 5 fire and 4 cold it would ballance out to 1 fire net instead of the 9 one might expect.

lol wat

[Hiro Protagonest]

Didn't you ever read the Hobbit and think "Man, Gandalf casts spells and he has a sword! That's so cool!"

Gandalf is a cloistered cleric with the War and Magic domains, and Divine Power.

[Curious]

Magus: Underwhelming?

Not really, no. It has medium BAB, d8 hit die, no arcane spell failure in light armor, Int based casting, pretty nice abilities from Magus arcana, and spell combat.

Spell combat is especially powerful, as it basically boils down to, 'quicken any spell with a casting time of a standard action, but don't use a swift action.'

No, the Magus is not weak by any means, and if you take the Experimental spell-caster feat to get Accelerate as a spell, you can move, full attack, and then cast a spell. It's quite solid, the best gish-in-a-can class that has ever been released really.

[stack]

Actually I think they are excellently designed. The spell pool gives a huge ranges of options, not the least of which makes them psuedo spontaneous (spell recall). You have to balance resources, but they can hold there own in small fights without burning much spell pool, then nova in the big fights. Combine that with a spell list that covers the bases it needs to and I think they are an excellent example of a 2/3rds caster.

[Firechanter]

I don't play Pathfinder, and have only recently discovered the Magus class and had a little look at it. I have to say I like it a lot; it seems to be an answer to my prayers for a more balanced version of the Wizard.

What do you want? It has decent combat abilities AND a nice, useful and versatile spell list. As opposed to, say, Warmage who can do nothing but go "boom" until he's empty. And he's not gamebreaking, as opposed to the Wizard.

Some of the Magus' specials are actually superfluous. You could take some of the stuff away and it would still be solid and play-worthy.

As Swift Mongoose already said, if it's underwhelming compared to a Wizard then that's because _anything_ is when compared to a T1 class.

Long story short, I'm planning to import this class into my next 3.5 game as a replacement for the Wizard.

[BlueInc]

Long story short, I'm planning to import this class into my next 3.5 game as a replacement for the Wizard.

Huh, I never thought about using it as a replacement. That just might work, actually, especially for someone who wants to play a blaster-y wizard.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Huh, I never thought about using it as a replacement. That just might work, actually, especially for someone who wants to play a blaster-y wizard.

Blaster? They get most of the wizard spell list! Except for the Summon Monster line, and no Mage Armor for some reason.

[Curious]

Blaster? They get most of the wizard spell list! Except for the Summon Monster line, and no Mage Armor for some reason.

I'm guessing they didn't get Mage Armor so the Dex Magus build didn't become the default option.

[MeeposFire]

Magus is a fine class. Mostly because of its spell list but it has some nice stuff. Just the spells make it fine. One of the few classes I would consider using in a non-PF game and one of the few Paizo classes that I overall like the design.

[Coidzor]

Consider ye the Duskblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)as a parable.

In short, the Magus is a more fine-tuned version of ye olde magiknight/"Hero" character type, and streamlined for ease of not having to jump through PrCing hoops and because of the whole anti-multiclassing thing the designers of it had, which worked out to a net gain for the base class in this case, as far as I can tell.

[Hiro Protagonest]

the Magus is a more fine-tuned version of ye olde magiknight/"Hero" character type,

*converts Magus to sci-fi*

Use the force, young Skywalker.

[Curious]

*converts Magus to sci-fi*

Use the force, young Skywalker.

Actually, if you gave the Magus powers known and power points as the Psychic Warrior, it would pretty much be a jedi.

[tyckspoon]

I'm guessing they didn't get Mage Armor so the Dex Magus build didn't become the default option.

I would have guessed it's because they can wear armor. Just from an AC perspective a Chain Shirt is just as good as Mage Armor, and when they eventually get to move to medium armor a Breastplate is better.. and I don't see anything that makes the Magus especially suited to be a Dex build, mechanically. That said, if you do manage to push your Dex to the point where Mage Armor would be the better option than wearing armor, you can get it if you really want it- the Spell Blending arcana lets you lift a couple spells off the Wizard list.

[Curious]

I would have guessed it's because they can wear armor. Just from an AC perspective a Chain Shirt is just as good as Mage Armor, and when they eventually get to move to medium armor a Breastplate is better.. and I don't see anything that makes the Magus especially suited to be a Dex build, mechanically. That said, if you do manage to push your Dex to the point where Mage Armor would be the better option than wearing armor, you can get it if you really want it- the Spell Blending arcana lets you lift a couple spells off the Wizard list.

To use Spell Combat, a Magus must wield only a single weapon in one hand.

There is a feat called Dervish dance that allows you to use Dex to hit and damage while one-handing a scimitar.

Your first few levels you only have proficiency with light armor.

[Rixx]

Not to mention you can two-hand one-handers when you're not spell combat-ing with them.

[Starbuck_II]

Your fire and cold damage would counter each other since they are happening simultaniously. If you did 5 fire and 4 cold it would ballance out to 1 fire net instead of the 9 one might expect.

Whatever your DM told you is a lie (since that isn't a rule), elements don't counter each other (unless you have elermental subtype then your Fire takes more cold).
He probably just doesn't like the idea and made up that. You seem to never have questioned this. But if you decide to read the rules, they will never be written that way.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's well balanced; this means it's competent enough to do its job* without being able to do everything, or anything too ridiculously. IMO if Paizo publishes one or two more 2/3 divine casters one could ignore the full casters entirely.

*front line tanking via light armor + defensive spells, damage by doing melee+blast with potential metamagic shenanigans, and some utility with their remaining spells

[Larpus]

I agree with everyone else, there's nothing underwhelming about the Magus, it's a great half-caster and, like his other Paizo half-arcanes overall fare better than a Bard (say what you want, playing a Bard is hard, not everyone can pull it out even decently).

Sure, it needs some optimization to "break the wall" when talking damage, but it's not so hard and if you do you certainly will out-damage the Fighter (just look at any Rogue who can set his sneaks); but even without that you have great mileage out of your control spells, so just with that and the weapon boost (1 minute is plenty for battles) you'll most probably be up there with the Fighter in damage, but also able to do some crowd control as well.

If anything is underwhelming, it's just the low levels, when your features and abilities haven't got into gear yet and your spellcasting is quite disappointing. But let's face it: anything but a full combatant is rather depressing before level 5, even full casters.

[Hazzardevil]

Not to mention you can two-hand one-handers when you're not spell combat-ing with them.

Actually, you can two-hand your one-handers and get spell combat if you use the same rule from 3.5 that you can switch between one-handing a sword and two-handing as a free action.

[TheArsenal]

The reason why I found it underwhelming is because I tried to play it in a war campain. Ironic how a War mage is worse in war than just a mage.

[Curious]

The reason why I found it underwhelming is because I tried to play it in a war campain. Ironic how a War mage is worse in war than just a mage.

Maybe you just- didn't play it very well? It's a bit tricky, and there are several things you really want to do, like get Accelerate, or slapping magical lineage + Intensify spell on Shocking Grasp.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The reason why I found it underwhelming is because I tried to play it in a war campain. Ironic how a War mage is worse in war than just a mage.Well, it's not called "war mage." The design seems to be single target combat, like most of D&D.

[TheArsenal]

Maybe you just- didn't play it very well? It's a bit tricky, and there are several things you really want to do, like get Accelerate, or slapping magical lineage + Intensify spell on Shocking Grasp.

Its because its arcane pool dies in minutes.

Wizards have spells that can last HOURs.

[Curious]

Its because its arcane pool dies in minutes.

Wizards have spells that can last HOURs.

You- you do realise the arcane pool is not what it uses to cast spells right? It has spell slots with which it can prepare it's own spells, many of which can also last for hours.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You- you do realise the arcane pool is not what it uses to cast spells right? It has spell slots with which it can prepare it's own spells, many of which can also last for hours.Let's be honest here; full casters really are better against an army. That said, the magus should fare better than most mundanes.

[TheArsenal]

In comparison of the Fighter to the magus the fighter needs more equipment then the magus but his effects and bonuses are permanents. So in wars their effective in their constant power. The magus fight more like a single use bullet.

Maybe If I just house rule effects to last longer and give a bigger arcane pool (Like 1 per level) in return for big long fights.

PS: Anybody know any alternate Character sheets for the rules in Ultimate Combat?

[Retech]

The Magus without any spells and arcane pool can still keep trucking on as a non-super optimized fighter (like, not an ubercharger basically).

[Andreaz]

In comparison of the Fighter to the magus the fighter needs more equipment then the magus but his effects and bonuses are permanents. So in wars their effective in their constant power. The magus fight more like a single use bullet.

Maybe If I just house rule effects to last longer and give a bigger arcane pool (Like 1 per level) in return for big long fights.

PS: Anybody know any alternate Character sheets for the rules in Ultimate Combat?

Your problem here was not exploiting the Magus' spells in an endurance situation. Here you really want the hour/level spells more than anything else. The magus' burst damage is all single-target, so no point in doing that against an army. In a war-like scenario, your spells should be all mass-control-damage-utility and your damage would largely be hitting stuff with your pointy stick.

Here's the effective spells, by usability in a mass combat of long duration
Level1:
Jump, Expeditious Retreat: Mid-term utility, helps you get where you need to be. Be it relaying orders, acting like a suicidal decoy or retreating back ot a fortified position
Grease: Keeps a position easier to defend, good to cover holes in your walls/shield walls.
Level2:
Blur, AlterSelf: As jump/Expeditious retreat
Darkness: As Grease
Fog Cloud: With its much better duration than grease/darkness, Fog Cloud is handy to conceal movement and keep enemies distraught. People with reach can be poking the cloud and hitting a bunch of flatfooted targets, and when they come ou they are picked normally just the same. The key here is to force the enemy into a shield wall situation, or to avoid the place altogether.
Web: It's like a tanglefoot bag made love to a Fog Cloud and this spawned from them. Excellent defensive spell, keep the guys with torches away and no one gets through this alive.
Spider Climb: As jump/expeditious retreat
Level3:
Haste: due to its mass nature, Haste's amazing to use on stress points, whenever you just need to break a wall or survive a more brutal attack.
Hydraulic Torrent: Another situational "get this done NOW!" spell, opening a path may be useful
Stinking Cloud, Sleet Storm: For emergencies, this is grease + fog cloud, but doesn't last long enough to be worth a cast if your defenses are good.
Slow: See Haste. Some people will save, but has more potent effects.
Wind Wall: good only to protect the McGuffin from the first couple salvos.
Level4:
Mass Enlarge Person: Makes them targets, but is about as good as Grease. V's idea back in azure city is solid if you won't withstand ranged barrages.
Black Tentacles: See Stining Cloud, but some killing is on the spell rather than the soldiers. Good to neutralize siege machinery and casters.
Fire Shield: It's a trap. Enems with reach won't have to fear you, and most smart soldiers use reach weapons.
Ice Storm, River of Wind: See stinking cloud
Solid Fog: The duration is lacking, but nothing melee gets past it.
Wall of Fire, Wall of Sound: These keep you still during the fight, but it's worth it if you are on the defending side, sustainable for as long as you can do it.
Wall of Ice: Not very useful, for it can be broken by mundanes, particularly with Aid Another.
Level5:
CloudKill: Now THIS is the real mass-combat spell. Best put near their trenches, but anywhere in the middle of their troops guarantees you a dozen kills every round
Geyser: See wall of sound
Wall of Force: Horrible, use wall of ice instead
Wall of Stone: Excellent. patch up fortifications instantly!
Level6:
Sirocco: stops the cavalry, but doesn't last enough.
Wall of Iron: Wall of stone, but tougher.

TL;DR: To play a magus in a very long massive combat is similar to playing a wizard, and then a fighter at separate times. Don't expect to beat either at their excellencies, you were never meant to do that.

(I also hope you got extend spell. Even within the purview of dungeons with quick fights extend spell is awesome, and here it shines like the light of a dozen sun gods)

[Blisstake]

The Magus without any spells and arcane pool can still keep trucking on as a non-super optimized fighter (like, not an ubercharger basically).

Explain please :smallconfused:

[Andreaz]

Explain please :smallconfused:

Fighters hit things with pointy sticks.
You are a magus. You have a pointy stick. You can hit things, and you are smarter than a commoner.

Though probably Retech was thinking of 3.5 uberchargers(these guys didn't dish out 4-digit damage only because it was unnecessary, but they definitely could do it)

[Blisstake]

I'm well aware how ridiculous uber-chargers were.

But I'm trying to understand how a magus with basically no class features could even remotely compare to a fighter. I realize they both would have the same role... that isn't the issue. I'm trying to find out how a magus like that could even come close to the damage potential of a regular fighter.

[Andreaz]

I'm well aware how ridiculous uber-chargers were.

But I'm trying to understand how a magus with basically no class features could even remotely compare to a fighter. I realize they both would have the same role... that isn't the issue. I'm trying to find out how a magus like that could even come close to the damage potential of a regular fighter.

Define "even close". The baseline difference is 5 less bab, 5 less bonus ab and 5 less attack, along with a little less priority to the STR stat. There are a couple hour/level buffs that bridge that gap.
"medium bab, armored and with a feat chain for melee damage" is the baseline of melee effectiveness, which the magus has.

[Blisstake]

Well, seing as the magus hardly has anything if you take out spells and arcana pool, here's what it's missing.

5 BAB (significant)
~21 hit points
4 to hit and damage with a weapon group
11 combat feats
Armored Agility (important if the fighter goes for a shield TWF build)
Armor + Weapon mastery
Proficiency with heavy armor (and uses it better)

It really adds up to a lot more damage potential than a spell-less, feature-less magus would have :smallconfused:

[Paul H]

Hi

Picture this epic tale of a Magus:

Got a Magus in the PFS campaign. Last time I played him he was only 3rd level (made 4th at end scenario). Scenario was long dungeon bash. Time to heal up between encounters, but no time to replenish spells

Party conisted of:
Summoner 4 (Eidolon dead, no spells [cantrips only], 2 Summon Monster ability left)
Cleric 4 (Only one spell left, Plus one Channel Energy)
Magus 3 (Me). Gor two Arcane Pool left, couple spells for AC buffs. Can use Wands in Full Attack. [Truestrike, Shield]
NPC Fighter 4 is dead.

Down to three of us. We still had the big bad enemy to finish off as our main mission. Not sure what support she has behind the last door. The others want to back off, keeping their characters safe.

My Dwarven Magus says "NO - we need to complete this mission"! Preps his remaining buffs, draws his wand of Truestrike and enters room.

We finish off Bad Girl's bodyguard (Some powerful creature with DR), then corner Bad Girl. Lots of Truestriking 1H Bastard Sword use there. (+23 to hit normally works at lvl 4)!

Eventually Bad Girl trapped between bookshelves either side, flanked by riding dog in front (me waiting to get in), riding dog behind. She (stupidly) finishes off dog in front, allows me to step in. Two rounds later she's dead. Huge sighs relief (including DM), filling in Chronicle sheets.

The Cleric kept us alive until then. (Only the NPC Fighter 4 died). The Summoner used his 'pets' to good effect. We needed his See Invis & Glitterdust to get past nasty area with Imps. My Magus was the only reason we finished scenario because of his Wand of Truestrike.

My Magus 3 was far more use than the Fighter 4 NPC!
(And now has 2nd lvl spells, can use Arcane Pool to recast spells etc).

Thanks
Paul H

[TheArsenal]

My Magus 3 was far more use than the Fighter 4 NPC!
(And now has 2nd lvl spells, can use Arcane Pool to recast spells etc).

Thanks
Paul H

Sorry but just giving a single situation with "My magus survived longer" just doesn't work.

Were comparing the crunch. Not the situation.

[Andreaz]

Well, seing as the magus hardly has anything if you take out spells and arcana pool, here's what it's missing.

5 BAB (significant)
~21 hit points
4 to hit and damage with a weapon group
11 combat feats
Armored Agility (important if the fighter goes for a shield TWF build)
Armor + Weapon mastery
Proficiency with heavy armor (and uses it better)

It really adds up to a lot more damage potential than a spell-less, feature-less magus would have :smallconfused:
That's why you don't run out of spells as a magus ;)

What I'm saying is that the basic melee package does not need exactly those things you quoted there. A magus without spells does have the bare minimum for melee effectiveness, provided he did take the right feats. "Effective at melee" does not mean "fighterlike"

[Blisstake]

That's why you don't run out of spells as a magus ;)

What I'm saying is that the basic melee package does not need exactly those things you quoted there. A magus without spells does have the bare minimum for melee effectiveness, provided he did take the right feats. "Effective at melee" does not mean "fighterlike"

I agree with you. I'm just trying to understand what


The Magus without any spells and arcane pool can still keep trucking on as a non-super optimized fighter (like, not an ubercharger basically).

Is supposed to mean. And... now I think I misread that. Lovely.

[Paul H]

Hi

That's like saying take away a Wizard's spells and see what he's got left.

Let me see, take away the fighter's ability with Martial Weapons, his bonus Combat Feats, the ability to wear heavy armour. What have you got?

1) Magus can wear heavy armour with no ASF at higher levels.
2) Magus gains bonus feats at 5th lvl etc. (Can use Combat Feats here)
3) Can outhit/outdamage your fighter, even with your wpn specialisations
4) Can self-buff (doesn't have to wait for someone else to buff him)
5) Can use Fighter only feats from lvl 10. (Uses half Magus level as Ftr)
6) Magus spells, Arcana & Arcane Pool make him far more flexible than the Fighter.
7) Magus has better skill list & skill points to use them.

Early on you couild give the Fighter Fullplate for better AC, but the Magus effectively has a Magic Weapon from lvl 1! Maybe even Cold Iron! (That's 4,300 GP plus double cost weapon, vs just double cost weapon).

Of course, in an anti-magic zone, Magus is totally nerfed, as oppsed to the (mostly) nerfed fighter.

Comes down to playstyle. You may hate magic users, so fighters are fine. Me - I've been playing (mostly) Magic users of some sort for 28 years.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Oops - spent too long typing answer to Blisstake. Just gave an example to highlight Magus versatility.
But it does really boil down to what you like playing. The player often grants more flavour via playstyle than the class itself.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, I realize they're versatile, I was just a bit confused. At first I thought that Retech was specifically saying that magi without any class features are still as good as fighters.

[Retech]

I was saying that fighters have no real class features. The magus could also just take expanded arcane pool (or something of that sort) a billion times as feats, since it doesn't actually really need any.

The cool thing about the magus is that it can buff as it fights. Spellcombat doesn't say that it has to be an offensive spell.

A kensai magus can get a substantial portion of its intelligence bonus to its AC. A typical AC for a dex-based magus might be...

10+4[Dex]+4[Int]+4[Shield spell]+Random enhancement bonus to do pretty well.

In this respect, I have very low esteem for fighters. In the event that I have to fill in the role of the melee tank, I choose the ranger (animal companion is cool) or barbarian or the magus or even a cleric or monk.

Anything but the fighter.

---

Ah yeah, fighters are better mechanically than a magus with no spells and arcane pool. But any decent magus will have enough of those to last at least a few encounters.

[Paul H]

Hi

Now that would be a foolish assumption!:smalltongue:

Different classes bring different strengths (and weaknesses) to any party.

My favoured playstyle involves magic in Fantasy, and engineering in everytrhing else.

At least Magus is one spellcasting class where a level dip into Synthesist might not be the best option! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[TheArsenal]

What im saying is that the magus runs out of options in long term battles but shines brighter in short ter attacks.

[Paul H]

Hi

Looks like I was too slow in posting (again)! :smalleek:

For melee tanks I go Synthesist. (Yeah, I know the endless debates). Perfect Gish?

My 2nd lvl Human Synthesist has AC 17 (no armour, no spells) and 35HP. (Con 13)!

But this is a Magus thread.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: @ Arsenal. Yes, unless you take the Wand use Magus Arcana, so you use wands as part of your full attack. (As per my example)

[Hiro Protagonest]

TheArsenal, as another poster said, you do realize Arcane Pool is something totally separate from the Magus's spells?

A Magus in a war campaign should do excellently. Let's say you 5th level with 16 intelligence. You get 5 1st level spell slots with which to cast Grease for battlefield control, Mount to act as a messenger or act as cavalry, Expeditious Retreat if spotted while scouting or sabotaging, and Obscuring Mist for ambush setups. And you have 3 2nd level spell slots, for things like Invisibility for ambushes, sabotaging, and scouting, Web for some major battlefield control, Stone Call for minor damage + minor battlefield control, and Blur so you can send the dedicated melee guy out there without too much worry.

[Starbuck_II]

I was saying that fighters have no real class features. The magus could also just take expanded arcane pool (or something of that sort) a billion times as feats, since it doesn't actually really need any.

Ah yeah, fighters are better mechanically than a magus with no spells and arcane pool. But any decent magus will have enough of those to last at least a few encounters.

Weapon Training is a decent class feature (combines weapon focus/specialization and stacks with those feats). Best part magic item Gloves of Duelist improves it more.

Armor mastery is so-so asa feature. But you can just be Weapon Master (so Weapon Training comes at lv 3 not 5).

[Firechanter]

Huh, I never thought about using it as a replacement. That just might work, actually, especially for someone who wants to play a blaster-y wizard.

The chassis will also do just fine for a Control/Utility caster, I'd say. _Maybe_ you need to add a few more spells to the list to gain the desired versatility, but you can well leave the hands off those dreaded Polymorphs, Summons and Callings.

The true art will be to play a Magus without resorting to Blasting. ^^

For a 3.5 game, you can also strip Heavy Armour Proficiency - he doesn't need it. Just let him wear a Mithral Fullplate and be done with it.

The whole concept meshes well in my current pursuit of defining T3 alternatives to the broken T1/T2 classes. The basic concept is to limit all casters to the Bardic spellcasting progression. This gets rid of the worst offenders in one fell swoop, and delays the remaining spells to class levels I consider more appropriate.

[TheArsenal]

On relooking yes, the Magus can do more things and stuff.

But it still lacks features that are permanent in other classes. Its just nice when other classes can say that thier magic item ability lasts for HOURS not minutes.

[Andreaz]

On relooking yes, the Magus can do more things and stuff.

But it still lacks features that are permanent in other classes. Its just nice when other classes can say that thier magic item ability lasts for HOURS not minutes.

You know who also only has expendable resources? Wizards.

Trust me, A magus won't run dry over the course of the day if he's smart.

[TheArsenal]

You know who also only has expendable resources? Wizards.

Trust me, A magus won't run dry over the course of the day if he's smart.

I realised that by this point I already fixed (For my campain) all the problems with the magus so by this point is time its rather a pointless argument, but whatever.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

I just made it so that spells/ arcane pool regenarate during the day if their not doing anything straining, but if they run out of spells thier exausted/ Tired.

[Andreaz]

I advise otherwise, spellcasting is powerful enough as is.

[Coidzor]

But I'm trying to understand how a magus with basically no class features could even remotely compare to a fighter.

You mean the fighter? With basiscally no class features? However could they compete?

[Blisstake]

Sigh...

I just explained twice how I misinterpreted that post. I thought that someone was saying a magus even without any class features was still as good as a fighter. MY BAD.

[Coidzor]

Sigh...

I just explained twice how I misinterpreted that post. I thought that someone was saying a magus even without any class features was still as good as a fighter. MY BAD.

Hmm. Time delays are funny things. Must be screwy internet here. Anyway, don't really care about that, just pointing out that the fighter doesn't really get class features either until you go into archetypes.

[Blisstake]

I consider bonus feats, armor training, bravery, weapon training, armor mastery, and weapon mastery all to be class features, even if they're just statistical bonuses.

[TheArsenal]

I advise otherwise, spellcasting is powerful enough as is.

Im not a "Go into dungeon and kill enemies" DM. Im a "The Goblin caverns sent all their gobs against you at once after you killed the other 6" kind of guy.

At level five the characters are going to be up against pretty much armies and siege engines.

[Andreaz]

Im not a "Go into dungeon and kill enemies" DM. Im a "The Goblin caverns sent all their gobs against you at once after you killed the other 6" kind of guy.

At level five the characters are going to be up against pretty much armies and siege engines.

That doesn't change my statement. The stronger points of casting are not damage.

[Ashram]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned any of the UM or UC archetypes for magus yet. Although with the UC ones I'm actually not terribly surprised since they all nerf the magus' spellcasting to a degree.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Im not a "Go into dungeon and kill enemies" DM. Im a "The Goblin caverns sent all their gobs against you at once after you killed the other 6" kind of guy.

At level five the characters are going to be up against pretty much armies and siege engines.

That just makes then even better, because now they don't have to conserve their spells, they can just go nova in the second fight.

[Andreaz]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned any of the UM or UC archetypes for magus yet. Although with the UC ones I'm actually not terribly surprised since they all nerf the magus' spellcasting to a degree.

I'd be all over the myrmidarch had it not done that.
Hex magus is a doozy though, something screams "hexblade" about throwing around evil eyes and agonies.

[TheArsenal]

That just makes then even better, because now they don't have to conserve their spells, they can just go nova in the second fight.

And die after rienforcments come.

[Andreaz]

And die after rienforcments come.

You speak as if dieing when overwhelmed was a characteristic of spellcasters.
It isn't. A smart spellcaster can keep spells going all day. Magus included. "Reinforcements come" will kill fighters and wizards just as much.

[Firechanter]

Around level 5, such an undertaking will probably range anywhere between tedious and murderous, depending on the total number of NPCs / Gobbos and what their hit chances are. Either way the ECL of a full Goblin tribe will be way beyond anything remotely appropriate for this party level.

Let's look at level 1 Goblins as per the MM1, each worth CR 1/3.
10 of them are EL 4. Fair game for one encounter. Actually the party is probably going to mop the floor with them.
100 of them at once are EL 11!

Imagine half of them with bows. Ranged Attack +3. Your PCs will have ACs around 17-22, I guess. That's a Hit chance between 10 and 30% per round. 50 Gobbos concentrating on one character at a time will score about 5 hits per round even on your Fighter (assuming AC22). How many rounds can your Fighter keep taking 5d6 damage? Three?

Long story short, 5th level is way too early to inflict large scale battles on a party. "Many hares are the death of a hound."

[MeeposFire]

It sounds like you just don't like spell casters for this. You are not upset with the pwoer you are upset since you will eventually run out of power and you want to be an energizer bunny. So go play an energizer bunny and pick a more martial class such as if allowed a ToB class. I think those will make you happier.

The magus is a decent class that can make its abilities last a long time but it is not the energizer bunny and if that is what you are looking for play something else.

[Psyren]

What im saying is that the magus runs out of options in long term battles but shines brighter in short ter attacks.

How many combats have you been in that last for multiple minutes? Keeping in mind that 1 minute = 10 rounds.

[Retech]

Also, keep in mind that feats aren't nearly as valuable in Pathfinder, considering everyone already gets plenty of them.

Perhaps it is true that the fighter will outlast the magus if the GM sends a small trickle of enemies constantly that doesn't overwhelm the fighter but makes the magus keep using spells, but that kind of situation could probably be better handled by a master summoner spamming summon monster spells.

At level 3, maybe pump out a buncha ant workers that make a solid line. 1d3+1 or so, all with augment summoning, which could probably take out some goblins on their own while the party makes a quick escape.

[Andreaz]

Also, keep in mind that feats aren't nearly as valuable in Pathfinder, considering everyone already gets plenty of them.

Perhaps it is true that the fighter will outlast the magus if the GM sends a small trickle of enemies constantly that doesn't overwhelm the fighter but makes the magus keep using spells, but that kind of situation could probably be better handled by a master summoner spamming summon monster spells.

At level 3, maybe pump out a buncha ant workers that make a solid line. 1d3+1 or so, all with augment summoning, which could probably take out some goblins on their own while the party makes a quick escape.

Plus, it is not the place of a specialized character to be on the frontline killing a hundred mooks. They have access to the right tools to surgically destroy much greater threats, like siege engines(sparing the fortifications), key commanders (slowing their maneuverability), enemy casters (stopping their world-shattering powers. Because casters.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Plus, it is not the place of a specialized character to be on the frontline killing a hundred mooks. They have access to the right tools to surgically destroy much greater threats, like siege engines(sparing the fortifications), key commanders (slowing their maneuverability), enemy casters (stopping their world-shattering powers. Because casters.)

They have good large-scale battlefield control, though. Just cast Grease every 50 feet three times and watch the show. Fill in the areas between with 40 ft diameter 2nd level spells like Web (though you have to set up posts pre-battle or fight in a forest or caverns), Fog Cloud, and Stone Call, or even use other 1st level spell slots on Obscuring Mist.

[Andreaz]

They have good large-scale battlefield control, though. Just cast Grease every 50 feet three times and watch the show. Fill in the areas between with 40 ft diameter 2nd level spells like Web (though you have to set up posts pre-battle or fight in a forest or caverns), Fog Cloud, and Stone Call, or even use other 1st level spell slots on Obscuring Mist.

Yes, I sampled those spells on my first post here. Thus why I said a magus is going to be 50% wiz then 50% fighter rather than the usual 60% wiz+70% fighter as usual in small scales

[Paul H]

Hi

And don't forget that Magii can use wands as part of their full attack.

In PFS you can 'buy' a wand 1st lvl spell, CL1 for 2 Prestige Awards. So at 3rd level I took the Arcana that let me use wands as part of the full attack.

At lvl 5 I can do elemental damage etc. Use my wand for +20 to hit, offsetting the Pwr Attack. or just boost my sword with Frostbite, doing D6+1 cold damage, and auto fatiguing the victim.

HP and survivability is the only issue vs large mobs. Magii have enough Arcane power to defeat them (prob more effective than pure fighters), but they'd need a good healer to back them up.

If you want something with endurance to outfight & outlast fighters in a major combat - take a Synthesist. Power breaking thugs, pure & simple..

Thanks
Paul H
PS Grease is a simple 1st lvl spell that can disable siege engines for 1 min/level. (As in "been there, done that. Yawn, at 1st lvl... yawn"

[Curious]

Hi

And don't forget that Magii can use wands as part of their full attack.

In PFS you can 'buy' a wand 1st lvl spell, CL1 for 2 Prestige Awards. So at 3rd level I took the Arcana that let me use wands as part of the full attack.

At lvl 5 I can do elemental damage etc. Use my wand for +20 to hit, offsetting the Pwr Attack. or just boost my sword with Frostbite, doing D6+1 cold damage, and auto fatiguing the victim.

HP and survivability is the only issue vs large mobs. Magii have enough Arcane power to defeat them (prob more effective than pure fighters could), but they'd need a good healer to back them up.

If you want something with endurance to outfight & outlast fighters in a major combat - take a Synthesist. Power breaking thugs, pure & simple..

Thanks
Paul H

I have two qualms with using Synthesist as a gish character:

1. No cost-effective way to use spells while meleeing.

2. The fact that the only way to represent my character is as surrounded by some monstrous creature that grants him his strength.

[Paul H]

Hi

Only referenced the Synthesist.

Spells/Melee? Simple, just buff and go for it.

Mage armour should be up most of the time. At start of combat you've got spells like:
1) Shield, protect vs xx. Grease for control
2) Stat buffs (not that you need them), Haste, See Invis, Invis. Create Pit & Glitterdust for control. etc.

At 5th level: flying 4 armed humanoid, power attacking with 2 Nodachis, using Arcane Strike for D10+15 dam (Each).

Back to OP.
Magus is the trained specialist to the generalist thug of Synthesist.

Thanks
Paul H

[Coidzor]

And die after rienforcments come.

...So every fight results in a TPK because of endless waves of enemies and the group has to spend more time making characters than playing?

What lead you down this road?


I consider bonus feats, armor training, bravery, weapon training, armor mastery, and weapon mastery all to be class features, even if they're just statistical bonuses.

After all that's been covered, you sill find bonus feats to be class features? Why? Because they set the feat system on fire for everyone else to give the illusion of relevance?

[stainboy]

Jumping in on Page 3 to respond to the OP even though the thread has moved on. Ah well.

Magus is a fine class but it's built in the bard chassis and it's just as unforgiving to people who don't know the system. If you're used to Whirlwind Attack fighters and healbot clerics you'll have a hard time building a magus that's any fun. You'll spend every action choosing whether to suck at fighting, suck at spellcasting, or really suck at both.

For example: spell combat is built around the 5'-step-out-of-AoO exploit. In round 1 of the beta, testers complained that Spell Combat sucked because an attack with a terrible bonus isn't worth risking losing a spell. Then in round 2 someone pointed out that the magus can 5' step between attacking and casting. Bulmahn ran with that but the class description never spells it out for you. So Spell Combat only "works" for players who know they can 5' step out of AoOs in the middle of a full attack.

[Paul H]

Hi

Spell Combat also works without the 5' step.

There'a an Arcana that allows you to use Wands instead of spells.

Another Arcana allows you to reroll a failed defensive casting check 1/day, with a +4 bonus. (Even better with Combat Casting feat).

I've never had to cast defensively with may Magus (yet). When he turned 3rd level I just took the Arcana that allowed me to use wands. (In PFS 2 Prestige Awards can buy anything up to 750GP. I use them for wands).

Last time I used him we only finished the scenario becasue of this Arcana. (Wands).

But I agree that Magus has many technical abilities. It isn't a class you can just skim through and then play properly. You really do have to study the whole text first.

Thanks
Paul H
(PFS Magus player)

[DiBastet]

The op point was already discussed, so...


Your fire and cold damage would counter each other since they are happening simultaniously. If you did 5 fire and 4 cold it would ballance out to 1 fire net instead of the 9 one might expect.

*Coughs* That's new.



How many combats have you been in that last for multiple minutes? Keeping in mind that 1 minute = 10 rounds.

Not to be cherrypicking, but yesterday my players had one. Besides a boss dragon once, it was the second fight in the campaign with more than 10 turns. And our warrior burned his once per encounter resources way too eraly on what looked like a long fight.

[Psyren]

Not to be cherrypicking, but yesterday my players had one. Besides a boss dragon once, it was the second fight in the campaign with more than 10 turns. And our warrior burned his once per encounter resources way too eraly on what looked like a long fight.

10 turns or 10 rounds? They're not the same thing.

Also, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. If you look at the majority of games discussed or even played on these boards, approximately 5 rounds is typically what you see, sometimes a little more or a little less. And if it's a boss encounter and the duration of certain buffs becomes relevant, great, that just adds to the difficulty of what should be a memorable encounter.

[Urpriest]

Anyway, PCs fighting an army do so in various skirmishes while their allies do the actual long-term fighting. That's how every single source advises you to handle it, how every published "you are in a war" adventure handles it, and how every competent DM does so.

[Paul H]

Anyway, PCs fighting an army do so in various skirmishes while their allies do the actual long-term fighting. That's how every single source advises you to handle it, how every published "you are in a war" adventure handles it, and how every competent DM does so.

Hi

+1

Thanks
Paul H

[DiBastet]

Also, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

That why I said "don't mean to cherrypick" and even mentioned that it was only the second time I've seen it. It's not that common. In this case it's more meant as "the exception that proves the rule".

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not to be cherrypicking, but yesterday my players had one. Besides a boss dragon once, it was the second fight in the campaign with more than 10 turns. And our warrior burned his once per encounter resources way too eraly on what looked like a long fight.

What 1/encounter resources?

[Larpus]

Anyway, PCs fighting an army do so in various skirmishes while their allies do the actual long-term fighting. That's how every single source advises you to handle it, how every published "you are in a war" adventure handles it, and how every competent DM does so.
I wouldn't say as much as "that's the only way to do it", but I fully agree that's "the way it was designed to be done".

So what I have to say to the OP is that if you're making such an alien (rules-wise) encounter pattern, I guess you'd need to rework nearly everything in the system so the PCs can last longer in combat, or divide the big war into many minor encounters and have the players each control more than a single character, but even so that'd be a bit tedious due to sheer duration.

Also, in said scenario there are many classes that will be super screwed, not only the Magus, but all casters and half-casters won't last long enough (Wizards, Sorcs and similar will have it especially bad since they have little to show for themselves other than spellcasting), but also some martial classes like the Barbarian (whose main feature is rounds/day and leaves him fatigated), so the rules will have to be changed or adapted all over the board.

Either way, as other have mentioned, a dried out Magus is about on equal terms with a non-optimized Fighter given that both can and most probably will have the overall same equipment (possibly a bit better if the Magus grabs the right wands or worse if he grabs the wrong ones); so if a Magus won't last long enough in the fray, chances are the Fighter won't last much longer either since he's not that much more powerful, even if it all comes down to HP values alone (the Fighter only has 2 or 3 HP per level more than the Magus, and with enough attacks or big enough attacks that's hardly and advantage at lower levels).

[MeeposFire]

Hi

Spell Combat also works without the 5' step.

There'a an Arcana that allows you to use Wands instead of spells.

Another Arcana allows you to reroll a failed defensive casting check 1/day, with a +4 bonus. (Even better with Combat Casting feat).

I've never had to cast defensively with may Magus (yet). When he turned 3rd level I just took the Arcana that allowed me to use wands. (In PFS 2 Prestige Awards can buy anything up to 750GP. I use them for wands).

Last time I used him we only finished the scenario becasue of this Arcana. (Wands).

But I agree that Magus has many technical abilities. It isn't a class you can just skim through and then play properly. You really do have to study the whole text first.

Thanks
Paul H
(PFS Magus player)

The wand idea is good (though potentially expensive). The 1/day one is terrible. If you are not provoking a lot in mass combat then the DM isn't trying hard enough (thankfully most DMs don't do mass combats in 3e style games very often). Getting swarmed sucks for this sort of thing.

The 5 foot step idea is good in most games though if you are playing an army based game where you will be surrounded you may not be able to rely on that.

[tyckspoon]

The 5 foot step idea is good in most games though if you are playing an army based game where you will be surrounded you may not be able to rely on that.

It's an army. If you find yourself being surrounded regularly, I would advise you to stop breaking ranks. Otherwise you should have allies on your flanks to stop that kind of thing happening. If you're trying to solo entire enemy units.. well, you are A: not really playing an army based game, and B: suicidal, stop that.

[Retech]

I think that spellcasters would do much better in an army setting.

Summoner: Spams 1 min per level super summons
Wizard + Sorcerer: Trolololol Cloudkill
Druid: Wildshape + entangle
Witch: Wheee infinite healing and hexes

[Firechanter]

It's an army. If you find yourself being surrounded regularly, I would advise you to stop breaking ranks.

"Cavalry is always received in Square!"

[MeeposFire]

It's an army. If you find yourself being surrounded regularly, I would advise you to stop breaking ranks. Otherwise you should have allies on your flanks to stop that kind of thing happening. If you're trying to solo entire enemy units.. well, you are A: not really playing an army based game, and B: suicidal, stop that.

If you are in ranks then you shouldn't be 5 foot stepping away and therefor breaking ranks.

Further I usually see you against an army not necessarily that you have an army.

[stainboy]

I think that spellcasters would do much better in an army setting.

Summoner: Spams 1 min per level super summons
Wizard + Sorcerer: Trolololol Cloudkill
Druid: Wildshape + entangle
Witch: Wheee infinite healing and hexes

They do, I seen it. A few mid-level casters can defeat a historically accurate medieval army in one or two rounds. It's gruesome. (Granted my players did this with 3.0 yeth hounds, so it might take three rounds now.)

[Grendus]

Magus is what the Duskblade wishes it was. Spellbook based casting class, significantly better spell list, and UMD for spells it doesn't get on it's own. Magus is everything you'd expect from a canned gish class, and then some.

[Starbuck_II]

Magus is what the Duskblade wishes it was. Spellbook based casting class, significantly better spell list, and UMD for spells it doesn't get on it's own. Magus is everything you'd expect from a canned gish class, and then some.

I don't know: spontaneous, full BAB, better HD, and better channel ability.
Magus is only better due to PF grants free bennies to any class.

A Duskblade updated to PF would be just as good.

[Coidzor]

I don't know: spontaneous, full BAB, better HD, and better channel ability.
Magus is only better due to PF grants free bennies to any class.

A Duskblade updated to PF would be just as good.

If by updated to PF you mean fixing the spell list, which is the duskblade's biggest problem.

[Grendus]

I don't know: spontaneous, full BAB, better HD, and better channel ability.
Magus is only better due to PF grants free bennies to any class.

A Duskblade updated to PF would be just as good.


If by updated to PF you mean fixing the spell list, which is the duskblade's biggest problem.

Coidzor nailed it. BAB, HD, spell channeling... all of these pale in comparison to a solid spell list of mid to high level spells. Fighters have full BAB and d10's, they're T5. Wizards have 1/2 BAB and d4/d6 hit dice and they own the friggin' game. Hit dice and BAB mean less than nothing if you don't have the magic to back them up. Even if we filled in the Duskblade's dead levels (he has 6, most of them at higher levels) and took away the Magus Arcana and Spellpool, the Magus would still be the better class. There's just no arguing with the spell list.

[Wagadodo]

Add to the Arcana that allows the Magus to add spells from the Wizard spell list to his list then you have an even more powerful class that became even more diverse as they are now able pull some other spells that previously were denied to them.

[Andreaz]

Add to the Arcana that allows the Magus to add spells from the Wizard spell list to his list then you have an even more powerful class that became even more diverse as they are now able pull some other spells that previously were denied to them.

And their faux-capstone is that all over again :D 17 more spells, two per spell level, from the wiz list.

[Grendus]

Actually, on rereading the Magus, I question whether Spellstrike is even sub-par to Arcane Strike. Looks like when you use Spellstrike you get a free melee attack in addition to your regular melee fusillade rather than simply adding it to your current strike. Not half bad really, considering you can combine this with a Spellpool weapon augmentation and a particularly nasty touch spell to add half a dozen bonus d4 or d6 dice to the attack. It's a major step up between levels 2 and 13, which is where most games are played anyways, and at higher levels the Magus more than makes up the difference with his magus (and, by this point, probably Wizard) buffs.

It'd be tempting to memorize Ray of Frost every day, take the Close Range Magus Arcana, and use it as a filler spell for the bonus attacks every round (especially once you can reliably cast defensively). Now to find a way to cheese up Ray of Frost's damage...

[Starbuck_II]

Actually, on rereading the Magus, I question whether Spellstrike is even sub-par to Arcane Strike. Looks like when you use Spellstrike you get a free melee attack in addition to your regular melee fusillade rather than simply adding it to your current strike. Not half bad really, considering you can combine this with a Spellpool weapon augmentation and a particularly nasty touch spell to add half a dozen bonus d4 or d6 dice to the attack. It's a major step up between levels 2 and 13, which is where most games are played anyways, and at higher levels the Magus more than makes up the difference with his magus (and, by this point, probably Wizard) buffs.

It'd be tempting to memorize Ray of Frost every day, take the Close Range Magus Arcana, and use it as a filler spell for the bonus attacks every round (especially once you can reliably cast defensively). Now to find a way to cheese up Ray of Frost's damage...

This spellstrike?

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.


So you get to TWf (main hand + spellstrike) + touch effect is combined with Spell combat, but unlike Arcane channeling: still provoke.
Also, why Ray of Frost? Arcane Mark works too.

The provoking issue stands a reasonable problem.
If you cast defensively, spellstrike is wasted if fail check.

[MeeposFire]

Yea unless the spell is decent, spell combat with spell strike is just a bad flurry of blows (extra attack all at -2 that never improves).

[Paul H]

Hi

Think I posted this before, but in case I didn't....

You can use wands with spellstrike. You can get this ability as Magus Arcana at 3rd lvl.

Expensive unless you get cheap wands (like in PFS campaign).

My Magus uses Truestrike wand against high AC targets. Also ignores anything but total concealment.

Also don't forget Arcane Strike Feat. All attacks counts as magical. Extra damage (CL based) & stacks with everything.

Thanks
Paul H
PS In PFS campaign you do missions that grant Prestige Awards. You can 'buy' any item up to 750GP for just 2 PA. (I 'buy' wands).

[Galanar]

Isn't there a feat to exchange spell slots for arcane points?

[Grendus]

Yea unless the spell is decent, spell combat with spell strike is just a bad flurry of blows (extra attack all at -2 that never improves).

More like TWF with a single weapon, which is actually a good thing. Think about it, which classes can make effective use of TWF? Classes with damage bonuses. And what does the Arcane Pool and Spellstrike do? Add fairly significant bonus dice to your damage. Plus the Magus has the ability to get various materials to penetrate DR, some self buffs, UMD... so no, it's not as bad as Flurry of Blows (though Flurry was never the problem, it was that the Monk doesn't have any good class features to synergize with it).


This spellstrike?

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.


So you get to TWf (main hand + spellstrike) + touch effect is combined with Spell combat, but unlike Arcane channeling: still provoke.
Also, why Ray of Frost? Arcane Mark works too.

The provoking issue stands a reasonable problem.
If you cast defensively, spellstrike is wasted if fail check.

I'll concede this point. I had thought concentrate, being so integral to the classes iconic ability, would be a class skill but it isn't. I'm guessing it was an intentional nerf, that's just too obvious to accidentally miss. If it were a class skill, with a con of 16, max ranks, and Combat Casting (Magus is one of the only classes I would suggest it for, as your main class feature means you'll be casting while threatened fairly consistently) you could have a +12 at level 2 which would basically render the check an almost moot point. As it stands, it's powerful at higher levels but inferior to Arcane Channeling. I still lean towards the Magus though, it's better spell list and book based casting let it cover utility roles the Duskblade can't, which is better unless you're in a purely hack and slash game.


Hi

Think I posted this before, but in case I didn't....

You can use wands with spellstrike. You can get this ability as Magus Arcana at 3rd lvl.

Expensive unless you get cheap wands (like in PFS campaign).

My Magus uses Truestrike wand against high AC targets. Also ignores anything but total concealment.

Also don't forget Arcane Strike Feat. All attacks counts as magical. Extra damage (CL based) & stacks with everything.

Thanks
Paul H
PS In PFS campaign you do missions that grant Prestige Awards. You can 'buy' any item up to 750GP for just 2 PA. (I 'buy' wands).

Depends on the wands you use. A regular wand of Grease is the standard 750gp, and while it got a nerf in pathfinder the duration was extended to compensate. If you plan to do a lot of Spell Combat with wands you might consider the Wand Mastery Magus Arcana as well, which lets you use your own int for the wand's DC. It will still be low, but it targets Reflex saves which are usually low anyways.

Grabbing a fifth level wand of Shocking Touch is a mere 3750, which isn't too terrible either. Makes a great backup Spellstrike weapon. If you go down this route though you should probably take the Craft Wand feat to stretch your WBL.

[Curious]

Concentrate is no longer a skill check, it's a caster level check.

[Starbuck_II]

Concentrate is no longer a skill check, it's a caster level check.
Caster level + Casting stat actually.
Yeah, means it hurts at low levels to use Spellstrike defensively, but easy later. Also no Skill focus means Combat Casting is actually decent.

[MeeposFire]

More like TWF with a single weapon, which is actually a good thing. Think about it, which classes can make effective use of TWF? Classes with damage bonuses. And what does the Arcane Pool and Spellstrike do? Add fairly significant bonus dice to your damage. Plus the Magus has the ability to get various materials to penetrate DR, some self buffs, UMD... so no, it's not as bad as Flurry of Blows (though Flurry was never the problem, it was that the Monk doesn't have any good class features to synergize with it).





What do you think flurry was in 3.5? It was an extra attack with the same weapon and it makes all attacks at a -2 penalty. That is exactly the same. So it is just as bad as flurrying with a level 1 3.5 monk unless you use a decent spell with it. If you just use arcane mark it is just 3.5 flurry at level one ability with style.

[Paul H]

Hi

I agree with Grendus that Craft Wand is excellent idea at 5th lvl.

Crafting isn't allowed in PFS, which is why they prob allowed us to 'buy' wands with Prestige Awards.

Wand Mastery is another Arcana that might fit well with Wand Wielder. It allows you to use your Int modifier for DC's when using wands, not the minimum that's usually required.

(I know most of the spells for spellstrike don't have saves, but hey...)

Thanks
Paul H

[MukkTB]

Whats this group of pcs against an army stuff? What you really expect 4 lvl 5 players to go toe to toe against an army by themselves?

-The NPCs hog all the game time. I get to roll an attack or two, then Bob, then Tony and Finally Marty. After this 100 NPCs run around doing things. I just got 1 action out of 100+. Do you really want to play with yourself that bad? I don't want to watch.

-If I have an army behind me now there are 200 NPCs that get to do something every time I get to do something. Ick.

-Anybody can get run over by endless waves of baddies. A fighter runs out of HPs and eventually gets fatigued. A Barbarian gets fatigued in a matter of game minutes. A Cleric or Wizard run out of spells. The Rogue, well thats alot of guys who get to make spot checks. Eventually they'll see him and run him over.

I have run some battles 40v40, not much larger, but in each of those cases the PCs were commanders and got to roll and make decisions for the NPCs on their side. Or the battles were not designed for the PCs as encounters but the PCs decided they wanted to go into the middle of a mess and I had to deal with it.

[Infernalbargain]

Whats this group of pcs against an army stuff? What you really expect 4 lvl 5 players to go toe to toe against an army by themselves?

-The NPCs hog all the game time. I get to roll an attack or two, then Bob, then Tony and Finally Marty. After this 100 NPCs run around doing things. I just got 1 action out of 100+. Do you really want to play with yourself that bad? I don't want to watch.

-If I have an army behind me now there are 200 NPCs that get to do something every time I get to do something. Ick.

-Anybody can get run over by endless waves of baddies. A fighter runs out of HPs and eventually gets fatigued. A Barbarian gets fatigued in a matter of game minutes. A Cleric or Wizard run out of spells. The Rogue, well thats alot of guys who get to make spot checks. Eventually they'll see him and run him over.

I have run some battles 40v40, not much larger, but in each of those cases the PCs were commanders and got to roll and make decisions for the NPCs on their side. Or the battles were not designed for the PCs as encounters but the PCs decided they wanted to go into the middle of a mess and I had to deal with it.

Typically mass combat isn't done by rolling out each individual guy but rather abstracting out the battle a bit more. That abstraction often makes things difficult to determine what the effect of PC's are, especially if they do decide to just try and beat up the opposing army.

[Grendus]

What do you think flurry was in 3.5? It was an extra attack with the same weapon and it makes all attacks at a -2 penalty. That is exactly the same. So it is just as bad as flurrying with a level 1 3.5 monk unless you use a decent spell with it. If you just use arcane mark it is just 3.5 flurry at level one ability with style.

You missed the point. Flurry of Blows was never the problem, the Monk was. None of it's class features synergize. Magus class features do. Arcane Pool lets him put incredibly powerful enchantments on his weapon, which can make it worth the -2 penalty even if you just use Arcane Mark (presuming you can make the check to cast defensively and can afford the Arcane Pool points for an uberweapon). Spellstrike lets him tack even more spellcasting goodness on top. Monks problem was never the penalty from Flurry, it was that it gets this interesting class feature and nothing to use it with.


Caster level + Casting stat actually.
Yeah, means it hurts at low levels to use Spellstrike defensively, but easy later. Also no Skill focus means Combat Casting is actually decent.

Missed that change. The math holds though, a level 2 Magus with 16 int and Combat Casting has a 75% chance of successfully casting defensively, which is reasonable presuming you're willing to spend the feat. If not, then you'll probably be using Spell Combat instead and taking your 5 foot step backwards before you cast, which is also a reasonable build. And there's always the Myrmadarch archtype, which lets you spellstrike with a ranged weapon (the trade off is stiff, one spell slot/level and loss of Knowledge Pool hurts, but ranged Spellstrike is a very powerful ability).

[Starbuck_II]

Whats this group of pcs against an army stuff? What you really expect 4 lvl 5 players to go toe to toe against an army by themselves?

-The NPCs hog all the game time. I get to roll an attack or two, then Bob, then Tony and Finally Marty. After this 100 NPCs run around doing things. I just got 1 action out of 100+. Do you really want to play with yourself that bad? I don't want to watch.

-If I have an army behind me now there are 200 NPCs that get to do something every time I get to do something. Ick.

-Anybody can get run over by endless waves of baddies. A fighter runs out of HPs and eventually gets fatigued. A Barbarian gets fatigued in a matter of game minutes. A Cleric or Wizard run out of spells. The Rogue, well thats alot of guys who get to make spot checks. Eventually they'll see him and run him over.

I have run some battles 40v40, not much larger, but in each of those cases the PCs were commanders and got to roll and make decisions for the NPCs on their side. Or the battles were not designed for the PCs as encounters but the PCs decided they wanted to go into the middle of a mess and I had to deal with it.

Are you using some houserule that fighting for X number of rd causes fatigue? Because only running can cause fatigue in D&D (in movement section of PHB) if fail con check (endurance feat improves this save).

[Firechanter]

When using 100 NPCs, it's certainly not viable to roll for each mook separately.
What you can do, for example, is to simply use statistical averages.
If the attack bonus of a mook says he has a 10% chance to hit (say on a ranged attack), and 50 mooks shoot, then 5 mooks hit, end of story.

[Starbuck_II]

When using 100 NPCs, it's certainly not viable to roll for each mook separately.
What you can do, for example, is to simply use statistical averages.
If the attack bonus of a mook says he has a 10% chance to hit (say on a ranged attack), and 50 mooks shoot, then 5 mooks hit, end of story.

It devaules AC/miss chances though.

[Infernalbargain]

It devaules AC/miss chances though.

Presumably that's all being taken into account.

[MeeposFire]

You missed the point. Flurry of Blows was never the problem, the Monk was. None of it's class features synergize. Magus class features do. Arcane Pool lets him put incredibly powerful enchantments on his weapon, which can make it worth the -2 penalty even if you just use Arcane Mark (presuming you can make the check to cast defensively and can afford the Arcane Pool points for an uberweapon). Spellstrike lets him tack even more spellcasting goodness on top. Monks problem was never the penalty from Flurry, it was that it gets this interesting class feature and nothing to use it with.





Actually you are missing the point. I am saying that it is only as good as flurry unless you use something like a good spell. Arcane pool in and of itself isn't the be all end all. It just adds some extra weapon enchantments (and I know lots of ways to add that to monks so that is not that big of a deal). That is always a nice thing to have but it is not THAT good. Notice that unlike normal flurry you have a fair chance to screw up the spell and that the penalty does not go away. Lets use the example of a magus using arcane pool to get speed on his weapon and uses arcane mark with spell combat/spell strike. You get two extra attacks at full attack bonus with all attacks at -2. A 3.5 monk of similar level would be getting two extra attacks at no penalty. It isn't that different. Besides while arcane pool is nice it does not change what spell combat+spell strike is which is flurry with a spell. If you use a bad spell then all you are getting is a bad flurry. Arcane pool is nice whether you use spell combat or not so don't confuse the two.

Spells are what makes the magus work as a class. Without good spells (from its nice spell list) it is worse than the duskblade even with arcane pool and its other class features and would be tier 4 at best.