Locusts of the Galazy Showdown - Borg vs. Orks vs. Flood vs. Zerg [Archive]

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Lord_Gareth

2011-09-10, 01:31 AM

It's time for the ultimate throwdown of things that scar the landscape, destroy all life they encounter, and devastate human civilization - Borg, Flood, Orks and Zerg, all descending on one unsuspecting system. The goal? Total domination and assimilation.

Scenario: Just before the events of Star Craft II, the Korpulu Sector is rocked with chaos; a conflux of warp-based disasters transports large numbers of Flood onto several human-inhabited worlds, as well as sending a WAAAAGH! into the Dominion capital of Korhal. Borg, operating through trans-warp, arrive on the scene when the conflict becomes evident on their long-range scanners, sending an assimilation fleet to 'pacify' the system(s) in question.

The Sides: Borg - The Borg appear mostly as they do in Star Trek, with one profound exception: they have no access to time-travel technology.

Zerg: The Swarm is led by Sarah Kerrigan, the self-styled Queen of Blades, and is at its immediately pre-SCII peak. That means it's mobilizing for war, developing all kinds of nasty tricks, and teeming with fresh soldiers. In addition, they have the advantage of entrenchment and logistics, since their infrastructure is already in place.

Orks: Da Boyz overwhelm Korhal rather quickly, establishing it as the core of their new WAAAAGH!. Consider it a mid-sized WAAAGH! with the potential to grow and looted FTL tech taken from the Dominion's ships, as well as any other technology they might have looted as a result.

The Flood: Appear as they do in the Halo series.

The Dominion: Pockets of their infrastructure remain despite the devastation of their capital. Do they have a fighting chance to survive or try to come out on top, possibly through an alliance with Kerrigan?

The Protoss: "Screw this, who has a pack of cards to play with?"

Goal: Martial and political domination of the Korpulu sector, as well as overall control of any psychic gestalts created by the assimilation of another species.

DragonOfUndeath

2011-09-10, 03:46 AM

Orks win.

Zerg are no match for Da Boyz, da Stompas or any other Ork. Orks are too numerous and powerful for a Zerg Rush to take care of (1-1 Orks win and they have comparable numbers negating a Zerg Rush tactic)

The Flood are essentially Zombies, and they are worse than Humans.
It's like fighting the Imperial Guard, without any control.

The Borg suck at close-combat, are good at stopping laser-based ranged combat and I don't think they are good at fighting explosive missiles.
The orks use lots of explosions, excel at close-combat and their tech makes no sense so can't be assimilated (If an Ork believes his weapon will go through the air and hit the Borg, no invisible shield will stop it, especially in the middle of a WAAAAGH!).

Aotrs Commander

2011-09-10, 05:27 AM

As the Borg, are argueably higher tech than the others, and capable of assimilating the rest, I'd give the edge to them1. As any advantage the other have, the Borg could concievably take and adapt. The Borg only need to nick a few Orks before they'd (unfortunately) be able work out how the Orks multiply so fast and learn themselves, which is a very scary thought. Especially coupled with non-crap FTL technology available in Starcraft (Star Trek is high tech everywhere except in FTL, where even Red Dwarf could give 'em a run for their money on a bad day...!) Not to mention the damage they could cause by assimilating human and Protoss tech/Zerg bio-tech.

Also, last time I checked, Ork weapons did not, as I recall, penetrate shields in 40K, simply because of their psychic powers, so it's unfair to assume that they'd be able to ignore Borg shields either. (After a while, the Borg's shields would help them - "help" not "make immune"; I make the assumption that, as the Federation define new terms for Sucking At Ground Combat, Borg-with-shields wouldn't be much better than Protoss-with-shields, rather than the "immune to phasers after two shots because the Federation can't fight a ground war to literally save their lives"...

I can't comment on the flood because I know nothing about them.

1That's "edge". There is no garentee of victory in war.

The actual winner would be whoever the single player campaign mode's based off (or who's campaign is last, if they all get one...)

DragonOfUndeath

2011-09-10, 07:26 AM

Axolotl

2011-09-10, 07:51 AM

Aotrs Commander

2011-09-10, 08:17 AM

They don't penetrate shields, it's more: Orks think there is no shield, WAAGH! Magic happens, bullet goes through invisible shield.
The Ork Gestalt, the WAAGH! changes reality into what the Ork believes is reality, if they believe the Bullets go through the air, the bullets go through the air. Even if there happens to be an invisible shield there.

By that logic, it means that if Orks think armour doesn't work against them, it doesn't (or any shields or anything, and I know they have shields in 40k.) Unless Ork attacks can magically ignore all armour and defenses, then they can't penetrate shields automatically, regardless of their visibility.

And, having looked it up, given what it says about the Waaargh! in the 40k Lexicon, I find it hard to believe that if it worked as perfectly as you seem to be interpreting it, the Orks would not have decided that "red bulletz killz everyfin'" rendering them with weapons that would ignore all armour and kill even on a glancing blow. So there must be some point means that even the Waaargh! can't change reality that far. (Also, there is an arguement that means the Waaargh! field making their tech work doesn't have any "resistance" as it were, as their belief is not being "opposed" by anything.)

But even if we generously allow them an ability I'm pretty sure they don't actually have, all the Borg would have to do is make their shields visible. For them to have the same effect as they would on, I dunno, a light Power Field (I think that's what the Nobz have on their armour isn't it? Only probably not as good on a Borg drone.) Basically (and I haved played 40K since the first edition) so my mechanics may be right out here!), I'd assume the Borg shields - when they finally adapt - would give 'em a moderate save (not like they're gonna get one from armour, is it?!)

By the by, I'd say in melee, the Orks would have the edge (assimilation aside), as Borg drones are only marginally better than humans/Klingons/etc and Orks are significantly bigger in comparision - and apparently he Borg have never quite worked out how to make their shields work on melee attacks... Mostly, I suspect, becase, as I say, Star Trek sucks at ground combat.)

Sidenote: if one assumes as if this is a subconcious ability, one has to ask the question why no-one has tried exploiting it in reverse. if you make the Orks think they'll die from something, would they not make themselves die from it? Granted, it's not something in any of the 40k races seem liable to try (or, for that matter anyone in this particular question), but it's certainly a good question. (On checking the Lexicon, however, that is clearly not in the spirit of what the Waaargh! was designed for, which is mainly to allow "the Orks to appear and behave more humorously and cartoonishly in the face of their more "serious" enemies)." So, no, you couldn't. Answered my own question!

That isn't how it works. Orks have no advantage against Imperial shields there's no reason they'd have one against Borg ones.

In summary - basically, this!

Also: Aren't personalities also absorbed? so the Borg now have Ork personalities (or they are a % of the Borg psyche). That would change the Borg. i give 25/75% chance of Ork/Borg dominance in that gestalt, depending on amount of Orks assimilated though.

No, that is the entire point of assimilation. An assimilated Ork is just as assimilated any as assimilated Space Marine or an assimilated Klingon (or Jedi or Krogan etc). Unless it is physically immune to being assimilated (Species 8472 - or I'd say maybe Geth since they are essentially digital intelligence, though the Borg might be able to assimilate their mobile platforms), if it gets assimilated, their are no special cases aside from "PCs." Normal Orks, being naturally psychic and prone to pack type behavior might argueably be even more vulnerable to the mental absorbtion of the Borg (debatable.)

Now, someork like Ghazghkull Thraka might be as "resistant" to being assimilated as a Picard or a Janeway - arguably better, even.

You could reasonably say though, given Ork physiology, that it would take much longer for them to be dronificated than humans, as their physiology might be more likely to "fight back" much more effectively (let alone the fact they're probably a good 50% more physical body to assimilate!) - at least until the Borg adapt.

I also think you're over stating the Orks verses the Zerg a bit. Personally, I could see that as being a pretty even (and extremely messy) fight. After all, it's basically Orks verses Tyranids, isn't it? (Actually, Zerg verses Tyranids could be a giggle all on it's own, given how I reckon it'd be basically dead even!)

(And after all, setting up relatively even forces to fight interesting battles is what 40K is all about at the end of the day!)

Tiki Snakes

2011-09-10, 08:36 AM

Because assimilation depends on nanoprobes, species with an extremely advanced immune system such as those dubbed Species 8472 by the Borg are able to reject assimilation, but thus far Species 8472 are the only race capable of this.

Never seen an Ork get sick. I know that there are forces in the 40k verse that would think nothing of developing nasty biological weapons, but they always seem to end up having to face the Orks on their own terms.

Is there any evidence that the Orks even could be assimilated? I'm certainly not well versed enough in either faction to say either way with any authority.

As for the Flood, that's another matter. There's really nothing for the Borg to Assimilate, really. They are dead matter being piloted by fungal spores. there's less animal present even than Orks. Conversely, anything that leaves a corpse is pretty much to be considered fair-game. Anything at all. That's one of the reasons they are considered basically a galaxy-scourging menace in the games.

Aotrs Commander

2011-09-10, 08:43 AM

[/quote=Wikipedia]Because assimilation depends on nanoprobes, species with an extremely advanced immune system such as those dubbed Species 8472 by the Borg are able to reject assimilation, but thus far Species 8472 are the only race capable of this

Never seen an Ork get sick. I know that there are forces in the 40k verse that would think nothing of developing nasty biological weapons, but they always seem to end up having to face the Orks on their own terms.

Is there any evidence that the Orks even could be assimilated? I'm certainly not well versed enough in either faction to say either way with any authority.

Doesn't 40k have virus grenades? I'm pretty sure they at least used to ('cos I remember, I think it was in one of the White Dwarves, something about them being horribly over-powered), and they worked fine on Orks (too well, if memory serves!)

(And according to what I looked up earlier, Ork physiology is merely fairly tough, designed primarily to take damage; it's not like they have Wolverine's healing factor.)

As for the Flood, that's another matter. There's really nothing for the Borg to Assimilate, really. They are dead matter being piloted by fungal spores. there's less animal present even than Orks. Conversely, anything that leaves a corpse is pretty much to be considered fair-game. Anything at all. That's one of the reasons they are considered basically a galaxy-scourging menace in the games.

I'd say that seems like a fair assesment; I can't see the Borg assimilating Undead (that would probably include Necrons). On the other hand, if it's a fungal animator, that would indicate there is a remote chance that there's a celluar control system for the nanites to try to highjack, even if they couldn't assimilate proper. But probably not, I think.

Forum Explorer

2011-09-10, 09:03 AM

Zerg are basically Tyranids Light so while they get a plus over the Borg I don't think they could handle the Orks or the Flood.

Borg shields would help but they don't provide any aid in close combat and are designed to block specific frequencies not raw power. Besides that the Orks outnumber the Borg and can easily take them on in close combat. I suspect the mad doks or Big Mechs would be able to find a way to beat the nanites. Also Orks do have fairly powerful psykers.

Flood are the second biggest threat here because the can zombify any dead and the Orks leave quite a few dead in their wake. However I don't know if they would be able to stop the Orks from reproducing so Orks would eventually win.

Traab

2011-09-10, 09:22 AM

How do you know the orks outnumber the borg in this scenario? Its not like the entire race on both sides got teleported in. Only the zerg are there in full supply, and have the home field advantage due to it being their frigging universe. That being said, borg versus zerg? Advantage zerg. Why? Zerg are already a hive mind collective. Id imagine it would be an interesting mental tug of war to see if the borgs technological collective could supersede an organic one and take control. But I doubt it. Plus, in this case the borg are WAY outnumbered. They have no real advantage due to tech because the zerg have been devouring the fricking protoss for years now, they have slaughtered higher tech beings than the borg. Even their cubes arent safe, as once again, the zerg have been taking down regenerative shields in their victories over the protoss.

Emperor Ing

2011-09-10, 09:41 AM

It goes down something like this.

"We'z da Borkz. Drop yer shield and give ys ya krooza. Yer bi-logikal, psykologikal, and shiny bitz belong to da kullectiv. Ye gitz will join da boss. Resistance is Fewtul. WAAAAUGH!!!"

The flood lose. That's just what happens.

Then da borkz stomp dem zerg boyz proper.

Chess435

2011-09-10, 10:37 AM

Lord_Gareth

2011-09-10, 07:23 PM

If the Flood can get enough momentum to get a Gravemind, then they have a solid chance at a victory. After that, the Gravemind can absorb the memories and knowledge of those that the Flood kill, giving them access to advanced tech as well.

Conversely, can the Flood avoid being assimilated by the Swarm before this occurs? And, for that matter, all the Zerg need in order to incorporate all the strengths of the flood (and none of the flaws) is to assimilate one of them. So when the Flerg form under the direction of Kerrigan, how does it alter the odds?

Fjolnir

2011-09-10, 07:40 PM

Flerg Vs Borks?

DragonOfUndeath

2011-09-10, 07:42 PM

Flerg Vs Borks?

It would probably end up a mental tug-of-war between the Bork and the Florgz (Flood-Ork-Zerg)

Lord_Gareth

2011-09-10, 08:15 PM

It would probably end up a mental tug-of-war between the Bork and the Florgz (Flood-Ork-Zerg)

With the distinct note that the Florgz don't actually have any of the Ork flaws; they're still Zerg, still part of the Swarm. The way the Zerg handle assimilation allows them to devour species at zero risk to their own psychic gestalt. Only the Borg really pose a problem to this, since they establish control through technological, rather than biological, means.

Traab

2011-09-10, 08:37 PM

With the distinct note that the Florgz don't actually have any of the Ork flaws; they're still Zerg, still part of the Swarm. The way the Zerg handle assimilation allows them to devour species at zero risk to their own psychic gestalt. Only the Borg really pose a problem to this, since they establish control through technological, rather than biological, means.

Im honestly curious to see what would happen if a zerg unit was assimilated. Would it have two masters? Would the technological mind meld and the biological one cancel each other out and leave the berg uncontrolled? (berg or zorg, I cant decide which is better lol) Oh man, I just had a scary thought. What if assimilating a zerg just allows kerrigan to access the borg collective mind through her assimilated zerg unit? Or the other way around? You know, its actually possible that they would literally destroy each other by trying to maintain control over their units.

It may come down to who has the firmest control over their hive mind. Kerrigan has been shown to need to be close by her zerg when facing enemies that can also control zerg, such as rival cerebrates, or juvenile overminds, or even psi disruptors. The borg may be able to use her link to the hive to assimilate a zertgling, then springboard into her swarm and start taking over control of her units.

Fjolnir

2011-09-10, 11:08 PM

The only possible permutation that isn't possible is the zorks, and that is due to the huge amount of grue related casualties after it happens...

The Glyphstone

2011-09-10, 11:20 PM

Whoever wins, the English language loses.

Fjolnir

2011-09-10, 11:22 PM

The zorks would preserve the english language, albeit in a simplified manner...

Xefas

2011-09-10, 11:55 PM

The Orks discover ponies first, thus achieving a Cultural Victory.

As a question related to the challenge, would the Borg, Zerg, or Flood actually consider assimilation into another species a 'loss'?

For instance, given these two scenarios-

1) The Zerg assimilate the Flood spores and make Zerg/Flood hybrids.
2) The Flood spores infect the Zerg and make Zerg/Flood hybrids.

-is there that much of a difference? The Borg, too. Does it matter if the Zerg use the Borg to improve themselves, or the Borg forcibly improve the Zerg?

Maybe I just don't know enough about the races, but it seems like unless the Orks win, the other three races' victory is going to look very similar.

DragonOfUndeath

2011-09-11, 12:19 AM

Victory for anyone but the Orks is measured in the faults of the gestalt

If the Borg win: Cold and Logicless. Still machineminded and stupid
Zerg: Rivals and Control Ranges still exist
Flood: Can't reproduce, only invade bodies.

Since most of them eradicate/don't use the faults then it is the only way a Blerd/Blerdz race can be separated into a winner

A Weeping Angel

2011-09-11, 12:39 AM

A Weeping Angel

2011-09-11, 12:42 AM

Whoever wins, the English language loses.

This too, especially as an English Major: the pain was like the voices of a million prescriptive grammarians cried out in terror and were silenced.

Tiki Snakes

2011-09-11, 08:39 AM

Some thoughts;

As far as I can tell from reading around, although the Zerg can infect things easily enough, actual 'assimilation' is much more difficult. After all, there's no sign of meaningful assimilation of or with the Terrans or the Protoss (who they seem to have been created to merge with initially anyway.)

The Flood lack most of what the other assimilating races would target in order to assimilate them in the first place, and from the point of view of the others I'm not entirely sure they'd be a useful addition due to their nature. Essentially they expand and destroy all other life till the world is a dead ball of fungus and gravemind/s. Their main problem is with the Borg, given their tendancy to have their own dead automatically destroy themselves already.
Similarly, in an Ork / Flood infestation matchup, the Flood would have a near endless supply of Ork corpses as hosts but wouldn't be able to meaningfully affect the occurance of Orks even in the case of a complete win, due to the Orks own fungal nature. Any world that comes down to Ork Vs Flood stays that way indefinately.

I still hold that the Borg would be unlikely to meaningfully assimilate the Orks. If they did, all you'd end up with is Orks with more cyber bits and the occaisional oddly familiar quote. Which is to say pretty much the Borks.

Bouregard

2011-09-12, 01:37 PM

As a non Star Trek fan I have to ask what is so good about assimilation?
So they assimilate random Orkboy no. 9887 and what then? To do this they probably lost 10 or more drones to -I have to mark this- capture a Ork alive...
The Ork is dumb and only fearless with a few hundred buddies at his side and will probably die pretty quickly as he charges anything remotly hostile head on.

An Orkboss? No, Orks don't take non orky bahavior well...
A Mek? they don't have a clue how their stuff works, they just build it and again they need enough boys around to get the really good ideas going... No Stompas for the Mek and his four stooges in the woods.
A Wierdboy? Nope... no Orks around = worthless

Also Orks are at least partly fungus... I don't know if assimilation tuned against mamals will work.

And the spores... they don't just produce orks they build squigs and snotlings too. Yes Orks bring their very own very hostile environment right with them. You won't get powerful Orks without feces everywhere, squigs nibbling on stuff they shouldn't nibble at and snotlings stealing everything not nailed down and on fire. Rampant biology is pretty much anathema to borg like order and "one collective = one goal" to Orks.

Keep in mind Orks work together because they happen to have the same goal at the moment. It's an accident. They dont' work with other Orks... they happen to raid along with them.
Borg however take teamwork to a new level...

King_of_GRiffins

2011-09-12, 05:26 PM

I think a breakdown of each match up is in order to evaluate this, as well as possible and likely gestalts.

Borg v Zerg - I think organization wise, the Borg have an advantage; they have a true collective (no 'Queen' anywhere around to mess things up), while Zerg, despite being connected, still seem to have plenty of division, not to mention Kerrigan is involved, controlling her things personally and in a top-down manner for sure. I might say Borgs will be able to out maneuver the Zerg given Kerrigans involvement, once they learn Kerrigans habits.

Both have the same idea in mind; take the other species and make it your own with no real weakness taken. I don't think the Borg have ever been shown to assimilate anything non-humanoid though(with I guess the exception of trying Species 8xxx(?)), and I'm certain the Zerg wouldn't really benefit from absorbing the Borg, as they have no use for their technology. Assimilation on either end is useless, with one exception; Kerrigan. Should the Borg somehow prevail over Kerrigan (which I say might be likely, if difficult and prolonged in happening), then it's possible they might assimilate her, and use her ability to control Zergs to some extent. With her in tow, controlling and maybe even assimilating Zerg could be possible with her knowledge, maybe. I'm not sure they'd be creative enough to use her as a Zerg Control Broadcasting Station though, and instead just do pest control (or ignore) any remaining, unlead Zerg. In the end, still unlikely, though potentially possible if the writers think it'll be cool.

Of course, Kerrigan might also end up being assimilated, turned into a Queen, and thus dooming the Borg by taking away their natural hive mind advantage by letting her take the reigns. More wild speculation, of course.

Overall, I might say the Borg would win this fight, eventually.

Borg v Flood - Again, I'm not sure the Borg would ever assimilate the Flood, or even really view them as a threat. It's been mentioned the Borg already destroy their dead, so mooching corpses off of them is a no-go for the Flood. Maybe with a Gravemind in control, it'd learn to use more of the fungal based Flood to take out or take control of still living Borg, but it still seems like a likely victory on the Borg side. I don't see the flood really being able to take advantage of anything they could take from the Borg (if anything)

Borg v Orks - Being humanoid, I'd say the Borg would at least -try- to assimilate if the opportunity occurred. Again though, I"m not sure if the Borg would really be able to use the Orks abilities to any effectiveness or creativeness. If they could, they could probably become unstoppable and increasingly aggressive (one cube to assimilate federation space? Hell no, send 50 so everyone gets some action!). Borg creativeness isn't something that seems to happen very often though.

In some strait up fights, Orks might have the advantage for a good while, with far more ground war experience and capabilities, but I think if they learn how the Orks fight, their tactics (or get the one lone Ork assimilated to learn it), then the Orks would steadily find themselves in worse and worse tactical situations, and probably end up defeated if not assimilated.

Of course, now I ponder if some Orks might think the Borg are really cool, and imagine themselves up some Borg-looking tech (or start thinking of having impenetrable, adaptable shields themselves.... The Orgs?)

Zerg v Orks - An interesting contest. Powerwise, I'm not really sure how to compare them much at all. I'll leave the battles to someone more wise in the way or WAAGH! Kerrigan might actually help the Zerg on this one, and end up winning with more or better tactics, depending on the quality of Ork tactics...

One interesting thing on my mind is someone mentioning Orks bringing their ecosystem with them and generally ruining the place. Isn't that quite a bit what Zerg do? What would happen if Ork enviroment met Zerg creepage? The Zerg in this example are already entrenched, and so probably have plenty of creep around, but how might Ork stuff interact with it?

Orks don't seem likely to really learn anything from the Zerg and in general have fun squishing bugs. Zerg on the other hand might pull Kerrigan-like infestations on the Orks, and that'd be a scary thought. I'm willing to bet an assimilation like that, if they assimilate enough, would let the Zerg-Orks use some of their powers...

Zerg v Flood - Now, this might be the one match the Flood have some even ground, or something that benefits them. Zergs are entirely biological, and would probably end up being thrown away as fodder in large numbers. With controlling minds of their own (Graveminds) the Flood could very well make a re-emergence and make itself a real player if they take control of enough Zerg. I wonder what a Gravemind would be like if it had the minds of all the controlled Zergs though, would it end up being a cerebrate?

I'm partially doubtful of the Zergs ability to take control or copy anything of the flood, it might pass below the threshold of what the Zerg would assimilate (flood itself being just fungus)

The ability of the Flood to actually -fight- the Zerg depends entirely on what they take control of and how soon they get a Gravemind. Other than that, could be mostly even barring massive loses of Flood due to Kerrigan being proactive to stop any Flood, if she does.

Orks v Flood - I think this one was declared a stalemate and I'm inclined to agree. The Flood can grow from the Orks dead, but they ultimately can't stop them from reproducing. Likewise, Orks probably don't give much of a damn or could easily beat them in combat. I haven't seen a case where Flood really do much more than run at someone, and I'm doubting a Flood-Ork would have any of it's normal psychic enhancement. Total stalemate due to apathy or inability.

----------------
Thoughts

Borg - So the thought that came up most is; have the Borg ever assimilated a species with an innate ability, and used that innate ability to thier advantage? I can't think of any examples, but if they have, they easily become the superior force and assimilate all other players remaining (and just stomp the Flood afterwards) If they do assimilate anything though, they will always become more aggressive with these other 3 in their fold, making them more dangerous anyway.

Orks - Orks don't really seem to assimilate population like the others as much as they assimilate ideas, in a way. They have the least to gain from the Zerg of the Flood, and the most to gain from imitating Borg shinyness. Given the overall badass levels in the 40k universe, I think they'd still end up being a match against anyone they fight one on one. I'm not entirely sure of their levels of orginization though, and if they might end up failing against the more intelligent Borg, or at least some of Kerrigans cunning.

Zerg - I'm curious how long it actually takes for them to create a new breed of Zerg. Someone else mentioned it as being a slow and unlikely process, but that infection was still possible. Infection seems the best way for them to go even so, short term gains getting them the victory.

Flood - They're just... there. I can't see much of any advantages they really have against this crowd, except that combination with the Zerg ends up being likely or even effective.

-----------------
Combinations

The Bork (Borg-Orks) - Increased melee adaptiveness and ground combat effectiveness, plus increased aggressiveness makes them a more formidable threat, but not an insurmountable one by the other 2 competitors. Possibilities of WAAGH enhancement. Less and less likely.

The Org (Ork-Borg) - Adaptable, impenetrable shielding, a greater sense of teamwork and unity (over near-0, an improvement!), and a desire to assimilate, all ideas taken from the Borg and emulated 'cause some of them thought it was cool. Combine with their natural strengths and psychic powers, they're easily one of the more powerful forces to be reckoned with, if they can manage to take this route at all (something about 'non-orkish behavior...). Possible, but crazy to orks and thus tossed aside.

The Berg (Borg-Zerg) - Using Kerrigan as a psychic control center, the Borg take control of the Zerg and use them as pawns in defeating and assimilating the other competitors. With Kerrigans knowledge, the Borg adapt new ways to assimilate non-humanoid beings, giving them a whole new ground army that's invulnerable to most attacks and absolutely vicious. Possible, but depends on Borg creativeness.

The Zork (Zerg-Ork) - Infested and now controlled by the Zerg, these Orks organize themselves more efficiently under Kerrigans control and sweep through the other Orks, their Waaaagh! enhancing the whole of the horde. A swarm of Zorks is formidable, as much as a horde of Orks. Likely and deadly.

The Org (Ork-Zerg) - The Orks transplanted enviroment mixes with the Zerg creep and creatures, adapting and becoming a hostile and toxic wasteland to all. The Orks take advantage of this, and the Zergs hometeam advantage disintegrates around them. Likelyness unknown, possible signs of author insanity.

Zood (Zerg-Flood) - The Zerg somehow get a sample of the flood, and copy it. With a new breed of exploding, zombie-infesting Zerg, the zerg rapidly gain superiority, as each enemy that falls becomes added to the horde.

Flerg (Flood-Zerg) - As Flood take control of Zerg, a Cerebrate is captured. A new Gravemind emerges, knowledge and cunning enhanced by the Cerebrate, and moderate psychic powers as well. It uses tactics efficiently and organizes the Flood on a level not encountered before, pushing them up from pest to threat.

Flork (Ork/Flood) - As the Ork enviroment expands, it considers the fungal Flood as part of it, and incorporates it into its expansion. The Orks start to see the Flood as normal, as soon they take place side by side, fungus to fungus. As the Orks spread chaos and leave bodies, the Flood expand their own power, becoming Garrisons to the Orks held lands and thier Graveminds becoming generals and leaders, once more organizing the Orks and increasing their capabilities for combat. Together, they become more powerful than they ever imagined.
-----------

Well, think that covers everything.... Thoughts? Glaring errors? If not many, I'll consider combination match ups soon, and maybe who I'd think is the final victor.

Lord_Gareth

2011-09-12, 05:47 PM

Thing about the Zerg that most people are missing is as follows: there aren't any rebellions left. The original two (post-overmind and young overmind) have to do with the way the Zerg themselves work - namely, that they're hard-wired to obey an Overmind, and many of them ran amok when the original overmind was killed. The surge of psychic energy created by that death divided the Swarm for the first time EVER. When Kerrigan fought in the Brood War, she (and others) re-unified the Swarm, with the surviving Cerebrates now serving the Queen of Blades. That means the Swarm doesn't have just one brilliant tactical leader; each Brood answers to its own Cerebrate and its Queens, under Kerrigan's overall direction.

DragonOfUndeath

2011-09-13, 01:00 AM

About the Orks:
I don't think they will assimilate much, except for Looting some things.
Remember that they were genetically created to do what they do, so they can go from a failed invasion (no living Orks, but some fungus) to Spaceflight with guns and giant Stompas in a few generations. They don't change from the template despite surviving in sectors lightcenturies away with no common ancestors for Milenia without much of a base change

Killer Angel

2011-09-13, 02:40 AM

The actual winner would be whoever the single player campaign mode's based off (or who's campaign is last, if they all get one...) the Korean Player

fixed for you. :smalltongue:

Aotrs Commander

2011-09-13, 08:17 AM

fixed for you. :smalltongue:

Touché, Killer Angel, touché.

Urist

2011-09-13, 10:09 PM

King_of_GRiffins

2011-09-13, 11:07 PM

Honestly, I think the Flood are probably going to be remarkably dangerous due to their ability to infect the living and dead of all sides. Orks usually win by being tuffa and having more Boys than the opposition, but the Flood are capable of taking over living Orks, thus gaining their toughness. Same with Zerg. The one major problem are the Borg, because their cybernetic modification might make them less useful(less biomass).

Beyond the mechanics of Flood growth, they are also capable of using and exploiting any tech the enemies let them have. This makes them remarkably dangerous, as even your materiel is used against you if you lose. Underestimating the Flood capacity for growth and adaptation is what got the Forerunners killed, and they were far more dangerous than any faction involved in this except for maybe time-traveling shenanigan Borg.

The Flood can gain the Orks individual strength due to them being big and large, but I'm not so certain they'd retain any of their psychic potential, where they make all thier weapons work and have the WAAGH going for them. Halo and the Flood, like Star Trek and the Borg, don't really have an example of abosrbing something with an inherent psychic power and then using it to thier advantage. Flood get to use weapons thier carrying, but how much potential does an Ork weapon have if an Ork isn't around to make it work 'cause they think it should? Maybe I'm misunderstanding Ork powers and tech though, it so far has seemed kind of vauge. Though, Graveminds seem to have some psychic capacity... I wonder if they could adapt to generate thier own WAAGH? :smallconfused:

At the least, the Flood gain nothing from the Borg; they self-destruct any drones that fall, or equip all drones not absorbed after they find out. It's a simple adaption that's not beyond them.

So far, Zerg seem to be the best assimilators; they can assimilate beings of any shape or function, they gain thier intrinsic/psychic powers, and they can partially assimilate via infestation instead of growing whole new units.

I wonder though... Zerg Infests an Ork, and then the Flood hop on. Would the Zerg Infestation or the Flood prevail in controlling an Ork?

Tiki Snakes

2011-09-13, 11:12 PM

Urist

2011-09-14, 09:33 AM

It's not that I disagree as such, but where do you get the idea that the flood could take over Living Orks or Zerg?

The main problem with the Flood, in my opinion in this four way skirmish is that every none-Borg death is potentially another flood on the field. The Orks in particular are likely to provide a lot of Flood-Fodder. I can't see them taking Borg tech easily though.

At least until the point where they have control of a whole Cube, because then all bets are off.

The Flood have only two prerequisites for infection into a combat form, neither of which is being dead. A Flood Infection Form needs only: A. An organism with a developed nervous system to tap into(check) and B, a sufficient supply of calcium in this organism to shape into a useful Combat Form. Anything which doesn't fit these characteristics is assimilated in other ways, such as being used to form a Proto-Gravemind, Carrier Forms, or rendered down to form Pure Forms. Flood can even infect through spores, in extreme cases, causing a rapid transformation into a Combat Form(that requires a HUGE concentration of spores, though.) The other threat that the Flood present is their ability to have perfect battlefield coordination once a Gravemind forms. They act with perfect unison, no matter what conditions they are in.

chiasaur11

2011-09-14, 09:58 AM

The Flood have only two prerequisites for infection into a combat form, neither of which is being dead. A Flood Infection Form needs only: A. An organism with a developed nervous system to tap into(check) and B, a sufficient supply of calcium in this organism to shape into a useful Combat Form. Anything which doesn't fit these characteristics is assimilated in other ways, such as being used to form a Proto-Gravemind, Carrier Forms, or rendered down to form Pure Forms. Flood can even infect through spores, in extreme cases, causing a rapid transformation into a Combat Form(that requires a HUGE concentration of spores, though.) The other threat that the Flood present is their ability to have perfect battlefield coordination once a Gravemind forms. They act with perfect unison, no matter what conditions they are in.

Well, there's a few other defenses.

Boren's syndrome, for example, means the Flood can't get a lock.

Orkyness may provide a little resistance. May.

Urist

2011-09-14, 10:09 AM

Boren's syndrome is the only known defense, and only because it invalidates the prerequisite of accessing the nervous systems. Orks still ahve nervous systems, and they function like just about anythign else, so Orkyness is not likely to offer any defense.

SuperPanda

2011-09-14, 11:33 AM

As I chime in here I'm going to make several assumptions about the various factions and groups as they are outlined in the initial scenario:

Space battles: Little discussion so far has gone into how ship to ship combat will play out and as since 3 of the universes coming into this are much more focused on ground battles and only one focuses to near exclusion on space battles the majority of the encounters and battles will take place at strategic locations. It will still be discussed, but not as much.

Base Delta Zero: Since it should be very easy for any space faring race, let along any of these four, to destroy a civilization from space the ability to do so is mostly moot. This does not rule out discussions of space superiority.

Hive mind powers: The flood starts off too weak to be a serious competitor for strongest hive mind. The Waagh is a powerful force unique to orks and not "hack"able but the other hive minds because it is more or less magic. Kerrigan represents the most powerful single psyche in the scenario, the current borg force does not have the power to assimilate her at the beginning of the scenario (if they could get to her). The borg collective functions as demonstrated and suggested in Q who, ie. with each member of the collective adding their computational power to the collective mind. This means that each borg slain reduces the collectives "hive mind" power by a minescule amount and each sentient entity assimilated increases it in the same way.

This means that with a sufficient growth in numbers, the collective could overpower Kerigan's psychic energy.

Fungus does not provide immunity to assimilation but it does initially make the host/subject assimilation resistant.

---------------

From the Borg's point of view:

The flood are invisible to the Borg at first. Human's or other life forms carrying the flood resist assimilation and become subjects of curiosity, but are not perceived as a threat if they do not fight back, which they won't if they think they can infect and take over the Borg or learn what the Borg are capable of.

Borg Nanites should be more than capable of identifying Flood cells inside animal tissue, from there it is an information race between what the flood can learn about the Borg and what the Borg can learn about the flood. Since there is no reason to assume that the Borg cannot assimilate fungus, the real danger to consider is that the Borg have learned how to create fungal spores carrying nanites which they can release from space to assimilate populations.

Encountering the flood first gives the Borg an advantage against the Orcs. I find it unlikely that the flood would be able to take control of the mechanical aspects of the Borg. Even if they did, as mentioned up thread, the Borg self terminate those drones which are no longer useful to the collective.

Zerg from the Borg perspective:

Since Zerg biotech is impressive but purely biological in nature the Borg are likely to ignore it at first. If the Zerg do not appear to be a threat then the Borg would continue their misison of "pacifying" the human, flood, and ork populations. However the two factions will invariably clash, likely with the Zerg initiating battle on the ground where they are certain to be victorious.

Borg nanites are delivered by touch and there is no reason to assume that drones would not sacrifice themselves to deliver them into the attacking zerglings. The zerglings would become sick as the invading cybernetics took them over and Kerrigan's power over them became contested. At the beginning of the conflict she would be able to keep command of the biological being, though it would likely require some level of concentration since the collective mind of all the Borg in the sector would be vying with hers for control. Most likely she would have the assimilated zerglings put down.

This is the point where space superiority comes into play. The Borg are faster in space and have weapons with surgical precision. The Zerg's major advantages are numbers and ferocity and their major weakness is their own biotech. Once the Borg work out that the Zerg using living tissue for their technology it is simply a matter of infecting the Zerg creep and/or ships with Borg nanites and then backing off until their numbers are great enough to surpass Kerrigan's psychich power and then they can begin attempting to assimilate her.

The time in which the Borg are figuring this out though, they are vulnerable to a zerg rush. The Borg tendency to spread out and face potential threats with few numbers makes them more vulnerable to this tactic in the short run but also prevents the Zerg from hunting them down and finishing them off.

like the flood and unlike the Zerg or the Orks, time is on the Borg's side. The longer the conflict goes on, the more likely the Borg are to prevail. Drawing out a battle by making their enemy's chase them down is a viable stratagy for them.

Orks from the Borg's view:

Primitives unworthy of approach or response, until they inevitably attack us. Prior to having one of their cubes or land bases attack by the Orks the Borg will likely just content themselves with ripping chunks of planet containing orks off the surface and chucking them into space (Usually when they rip of chunks of planet they transport it onto their cube and assimilate everything.)

Encountering the flood first gives them an advantage of already being ready for fungal life forms. Encountering the Orks first means they loose alot of drones on land before they start getting their nanites working.

I am going to assume that the Waaagh is a purely ork thing. With the way the collective works, it won't matter to them. There aren't enough Orks in the collective for them to use the Waagh. Before that could happen a number of other things have to happen first:

1) Orks don't recognize assimilated orks as Borg but think it "An Ork wit shiney bits."
2) The Waaagh is strong enough to override the collective mind on this point.
3) Because of the above, assimilated Orks do not know they are assimilated and don't get their IQ enchanced by cybernetics because they aren't "one o' dem smot boyz"
4) one of the following:
4a) The Borg continue trying to assimilate the Waaagh through attrition, and somehow succeed.
4b) The Orks decide they want "More o dem shiny bits" and demand to be assimilated.
4c) The Borg figure out how to get assimilated orcs to shed Ork spores with nanites in them to grow pre-assimilated orks.
5) The Waagh is adopted into the collective by the Orks who now think of the normal borg as "dem smot boyz who make the koob red and putz bullets in me Dakka." and the normal borg become support drones while the new Bork become battle drones. The Orks never realize they were assimilated, because in a way they never were, and the Borg become capable of waging a ground war.

I find this highly unlikely, while at the same time very amusing and a little terrifying.

The Borg against any one of these factions and I would solidly hand victory to them because of the way patients plays to their advantage. With all four in play, I think the Borg's slow and defensive strategies might not be given time to play out.

Early conflict: Almost negligible threat to all factions. Kerrigan and the flood likely to be able to recognize the danger they possess. Major threat to the Borg - Zerg. Borg present a major threat to the Flood. Even ground with the Orks, though the two aren't likely to bother with each other for long (Borg don't put up a good enough fight to bother with, Orks are to primitive to be worth assimilating).

--------------

Orks from the Zerg's view:

Food.

Until their power is demonstrated in some impressive way, the Zerg will first and formost think of battle hungry savagaes with aparently limitless numbers as the perfect combination of battle training and buffet. The presence of the other two factions means that they can't afford the constant battle with the orks, though they might like that. Kerrigan might sense the Waagh, but her pride would make her convinced it was an Ork leader instead of all the Orks together.

Initially, the Orks won't be considered a threat, but the constant drain on resources they provide will cripple the Zerg in the long run.

Flood from the Zerg perspective:

New, and dangerous threat.

The Zerg and the Ork are used to winning battles through numbers and treating individual casualties as minor things. The time between realizing what the flood is and finding a stratagy to defeate them may take too long. Without alliances and with an ork Waaagh to deal with, the Flood may consume the swarm.

Borg form the Zerg perspective: individually puny, their cubes represent potentially devestating power. The major threat they possess is that their hive mind could eventually outclass Kerrigans, though this is unlikely. In a straight up fight the Zerg would devour the collective, but they have a Waaagh on their hands and a hidden menace in the flood.

Still, Kerrigan is a cunning figure and the Borg could make valuable allies.

Early conflict: The single most dangerous faction afield. Being strong they are sure to attrack Da Boyz who only want a good fight. The Zerg will be winning at first, until the Flood appears and the Ork's fungal nature makes it apparent that they are an eternal pest.

May attempt a treaty with the Borg, or may attempt to allow the borg to assimilate a Zergling so that Kerrigan can try to "hack" the collective's hive mind. Attempts to do so are likely to be unsuccessful or have limited success. Without Allies, the Zerg will not prevail in this fight, not having the knowledge and resources to hunt down their enemies before the enemy power grows too large to ignore.

---------------

Orks from Flood perspective:

Mindless warriors who throw themselves into battle offering corpses for us to control.

The big question here is how the two fungal organisms work. Since the flood takes control of animals, they may not be able to possess Ork bodys. The Flood might also run into the same problem the Borg would, that since the Orks don't know they're possessed they aren't.

Flood presence would be negligible at first, but it snowballs as the inevitable Zerg vs Ork confrontation continues.

Zerg from Flood Perspective:

Much the same as the Orks. Infected Zerg whose brains still work would not be controllable by the Flood, because of the hive mind. Infecting them only lets Kerrigan know that something is trying to take her Zerg from her.

Borg from the flood perspective:

Too much metal in the way. The cybernetics would interfere with Flood control. As said before, there is also an evolution race that goes on to see which side wins on the subject of controlling the other.

Early conflict: The flood's best chance is to sit and wait until the other factions are busy and then build up its numbers. Its best bet is to ingore the Borg entirely until they have the power to crush the collective outright.

---------------

Ork views:

Dem Zerg boyz make good fight. Go squish plenty good! Waaagh.

Dat flood ting isn't fun. Get a bigga gun.

Dem Shiny boyz gots nice bits to nick. Waaaagh.

Early conflict: The orks stand to be a major nuisance to any faction they engage first, most likely the Zerg. In a prolonged battle they will cost another faction victory through contiued harassment. With the Flood or Zerg it could simply become an eternal war with the Orks unable to be completely extinguished. With the Borg its a do or die contest that begins with the Orks in a major position of advantage but then starts to tip in the Borg's favor exponentially as time goes on. The ultimate strength of the Waaagh determines if they will be more than a factor in preventing the others from being destroyed.

----------------------

With the givens of the scenario:

The battle begins as a 4 way free for all with Orks, Flood, Zerg, and natives battling. The Flood could potentially hide among the other populations though instead of resorting to outright war.

The Borg arrive in the sector with a fleet after fighting has begun, they have no ground presence and are completely unknown to the others until encountered.

If the flood are in hiding, the Zerg and Orks are the only real potential threats to the collective with the Zerg being higher on the scale.

The flood feeds off the Zerg and Ork conflict (if they can in fact possess corpses as the rest of the thread has been saying). By the time Borg analysis of the conflict is complete (and samples of the various life forms have been collected by different cubes) the initial victory of Zerg vs Ork has been determined and the Zerg are now focused on putting down the flood.

Kerrigan might seek assistance from the Borg at this time. The local population is most certainly gone by this point having fallen pray to one of the various factions in play.

Equal chances the Protos look up from their card game and notice the Borg trying to assimilate Zerg outposts and get curious, or decide to play another round. Since the scenario says they aren't here, they play another round.

The Borg initially accept the offer of a truce in order to examine the Ork and Flood biology and integrate their assimilation technology with it while helping the Zerg "eliminate" the threat.

The Zerg betray the collective destroying several cubes nearly instantaneously, but not before nanite spore clouds are released onto Zerg colonies and ships. The reserve cubes and assimilated Zerg fleet begin to close in on Kerrigan growing new drones through infected ork spores, high likely hood the Waaagh isn't powerful enough to overcome the hive mind.

Likely problems in my scenario: I am woefully ignorant of Ork, Flood, and Zerg space capabilty and am assuming that the tactical speed and surgical precision of Borg technology would give them the ability to avoid battle should they choose it and make them difficult to track down or shoot down.

I assume that the flood's numbers remain controllable and that Kerrigan notices a problem before it is too late.

I assume that no one realizes that the Borg are only a threat if allowed to gather information first.

I assume that a war ready Zerg fleet is more powerful than a mid sized Waaagh.

I assume the flood try to hide early on in order to grow their numbers.

With all of these assumptions: ultimate victory goes to the Borg, but only because everyone is busy fighting off the other three at the beginning.

Tiki Snakes

2011-09-14, 12:32 PM

The Borg seem to play it a lot more cunning and thoughtful in your post there than I've ever really seen them, SuperPanda. Overall not a bad post, though.

Space-combat-wise, the problem with the Borg vs Orks is that the Borg tend turn up to announce themselves and first, whereas the Orks wouldn't even slow down and promptly ram straight into whatever cube/cubes are nearby without even having to discuss it amongst themselves. The problem with this is, you now have a cube full of Ork Spores. It can only end badly, really.

Also, I can't help but think that the Orks-being-attracted to shiny shinies or tech just isn't very likely. They aren't really the magpie type. If they find something 'Big and Shooty' they might be quite tempted, or the like, but generally most of the Borg stuff is too fiddly for the Orks to really be interested in. Likewise, however, it's not so much they'd be too dumb to realise they have been assimilated as there's potentially just not enough recogniseable physiology to actually assimilate, and the Ork Waagh would provide a general resistance even if the nanites could affect them.

That wouldn't really help them against the Zerg, though, because the Zerg basically break a species down into it's genetic soup and start again from scratch when they assimilate a race. The problem with this is that it seems to be a much more slow process than the Borg individual-at-a-time assimilation, but it does raise the prospect of Zerg units with all of the advantages that the Ork have without necessarily the same weaknesses and short-fallings. This would only really be a possibility in a very long scenario though, going by the Starcraft games.

You're pretty spot on with the flood, though. They've played the waiting game in almost all their appearances, so the idea of them lurking and building up whilst the conflict rages on is very likely. It also means that the long game goes very strongly. Like the Orks, they potentially are more dangerous in a prolonged conflict. The Orks get individually bigger and tougher as they fight after all, and have constant spore-based backup. You have to put them down hard to break the building momentum. The flood, likewise, just get smarter and smarter as they expand and will go from ignored nuisance to sole remaining threat very quickly if allowed to.
I'm not really sure how the Borg even could assimilate the purely fungal lifeforms of the Flood, to be honest. They almost have the reverse problem that the Flood has with the Borg and I don't really see either side meaningfully assimilating each other. With the exception of if they can get enough spores inside a cube to do the whole High-Charity thing and just flood up the whole structure to gain some kind of control.

From what I can tell, the Borg should be highly resistant to infection, but possibly not immune altogether. I could see them simply self destructing infected Borg, if they notice at all, though. Again, the flipside is that I'm not sure the Zerg really offer much that would aid the Borg by assimilation.

My read on the conflict is not entirely removed from your own. The main difference is that I think that Flood and potentially Orks benefit more from a prolonged conflict than the Borg, with the Borg and the Zerg as the more traditional factions involved. The Flood and the Orks are just too hard to scourge clean, and too happy for the conflict to run indefinately.

If I had to guess, I'd imagine it would be heavy, perhaps catastrophic losses for the Borg until they are forced to (Shock, Gasp!) Innovate and treat the situation differently than every other time we've seen them. The Zerg would likely be heavily embroiled with Borg and Ork combat, with the Flood sneaking around biding it's time. The Flood should be capable of holding it's own against the Orks and with Kerrigan involved should be cunning enough not to get pinned down too heavily to get caught between them and the Borg.
It all goes to hell when the Flood finally join the party, of course.

I can see the Borg going one of several ways. Either their usual arrogant tactics backfire against the Orks and we end up with Borks, (which ends badly for everyone else), or they end up having to ally with one of the other factions. Most likely the Zerg, in order to deal with the Fungal Threats before they destroy all life in the (matchup/galaxy, delete as appropriate). Of course, they'd likely both backstab each other as soon as that was dealt with, if they manage to survive the effort.

Which puts the eventual final matchup as one of two possibilities to my mind; Either it's eternal fungal warfare between Flood and Ork, or it's whatever remains of the Zerg vs whatever remains of the Borg, fought over a scorched-earth battlefield. I guess at that point it would come down to how their ground and space capabilities compare, and I've no idea how that'd work out.
Really, my money is on the Endless Fungal Apocalypse ending as most likely, what with the arrogances involved in this matchup and lack of galaxy-scourging superweapons.

Sengachi

2011-10-26, 08:00 PM

The Glyphstone

2011-10-26, 08:49 PM

Just one question: Why in the world are the Tyranids not on this list?

They are they ultimate hive-mind. Quick Warcraft 40000k lore lesson. The Orks managed to fight off a Tyranid splinter-fleet just barely. And then the Tyranids started taking on the Orks attributes and are expected to win the fight. Just one splinter fleet. The only conclusive military victories ever won against the Tyranids have been the Empire glassing planets the Tyranids infest. Their own planets. The true Tyranid force is expected to be a minimum of 20x larger than the number of Tyranids currently attacking the galaxy.

Now tell me, how is that not more powerful of an infestation than everything on this list?

-The orks were doing more than 'just barely' fighting off the 'Nids, they were fighting it to a standstill so effectively that the Hive Mind was diverting additional fleets and forces from other battlefronts to fight them. Besides, Tyranids have been absorbing Ork DNA for a long time, that's what Biovores include (though how Orks translate into living mortars I have no idea).
-The Imperium shattered Behemoth against Macragge, and there's plenty of victories against splinter fleets (which can be small or huge, so it's not exactly an un-accomplishment).
-I'm not aware of any official estimate regarding the total strength of the Hive Mind, so this remains undisputed.

As for why they're not here, a while back (your post was literally on the last day before it'd be thread necromancy, this discussion is quite old) even before this thread we had a Flood vs. Zerg vs. Tyranids fight. I imagine people threw in the Orks just for variety this time around.

Forum Explorer

2011-10-27, 06:16 AM

Just one question: Why in the world are the Tyranids not on this list?

They are they ultimate hive-mind. Quick Warcraft 40000k lore lesson. The Orks managed to fight off a Tyranid splinter-fleet just barely. And then the Tyranids started taking on the Orks attributes and are expected to win the fight. Just one splinter fleet. The only conclusive military victories ever won against the Tyranids have been the Empire glassing planets the Tyranids infest. Their own planets. The true Tyranid force is expected to be a minimum of 20x larger than the number of Tyranids currently attacking the galaxy.

Now tell me, how is that not more powerful of an infestation than everything on this list?

That Nid Splinter fleet was as strong as the one that hit Macarage. Basically it was big enough that it took a lot of pressure off of the Imperium.

Tyranids do not infest planets they consume them. There have been plenty of victories against the Tyranids. Both Kraken and Behemoth for example.

The true Tyranid force is left as a complete unknown.

I would say they are expected to win that fight until the Ork codex comes out :smallwink:

Finally Nids aren't in this because they would win.

On that note Orks would win/draw with the Flood. Their ships are very big in comparison to the other teams and have impressive if random firepower as well as being very durable.

deuterio12

2011-10-27, 07:29 AM

Finally Nids aren't in this because they would win take so many time to reach the battlefield everybody else would be gone by then.

Fixed that for you. If nids are known for something, is for being the slowest 40K faction of all (no FTL travel at all really hurts). :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2011-10-27, 07:45 AM

Fixed that for you. If nids are known for something, is for being the slowest 40K faction of all (no FTL travel at all really hurts). :smalltongue:

Nids do have warp travel, actually. They've got these giant spacefaring creatures called Narwhals(the jedi of the sea) that 'burrow' tunnels through the warp, with the rest of the hive fleet riding along in their 'slipstream' of sorts. It's more of a Point A to Point B direct trip than the current-surfing other races can do, but it's not strictly STL.

Weezer

2011-10-27, 09:39 AM

Tiki Snakes

2011-10-27, 09:45 AM

But still it is significantly slower than all the other 40k FTL. As well as probably slower than Borg transwarp, no idea how it would compare to the flood don't know their FTL capacity.

Flood FTL travel is exactly equal to that of whatever ship they have infested, to the best of my knowledge.

Forum Explorer

2011-10-27, 10:19 AM

Fixed that for you. If nids are known for something, is for being the slowest 40K faction of all (no FTL travel at all really hurts). :smalltongue:

They are slow but it is much faster then FTL. Also that's still a win in my books :smallbiggrin:

KingofMadCows

2011-10-27, 04:52 PM

The Borg can deliver nanites without drones. In "Scorpion," they planned to use a bomb that would disperse nanites over an area of several light years, which also means that they have technology that would allow the nanites to survive an FTL explosion. In "Dark Frontier," the Borg Queen wanted Seven to develop an undetectable nanite aerosol to assimilate earth.

GloatingSwine

2011-10-29, 03:54 PM

Also, last time I checked, Ork weapons did not, as I recall, penetrate shields in 40K, simply because of their psychic powers, so it's unfair to assume that they'd be able to ignore Borg shields either.

It's not a property of the Orks that would hamper the Borg in this case, it's a property of the Borg's shields. The individual drone is well protected against energy weapons, but no drone has ever shown any protection against brute physical attack, from the earliest days of TNG where Worf and Data were able to manhandle them to the depths of Voyager where individual 8472 were seen standing victorious over piles of drone corpses (and given how quickly they adapt to energy attacks, if they were going to adapt to resist physical attacks it would have happened in those mass combats).

The most likely outcome of any Borg vs Ork conflict is not Assimilated Boy, it's Looted Cube.

The real trouble with the Borg in this conflict is that, well, they're a bit rubbish really. They show very little variability in tactics or approach, (In fact, none at all really. They "adapt" technologically, shoot one drone with a phaser and the next drone will resist the attack, but the second drone won't do anything different to the first. Indeed it will probably just start doing exactly what the first one was before you shot it).

It's also impossible to tell how they'll deal with radically different biologies, they were unable to assimilate 8472, and only the crew of Voyager was able to modify their nanoprobes to affect them (NB: This would not have assimilated the 8472, it would just have killed them, the modifications were to destroy 8472 tissue infecting poor dumb Harry Kim. Again it shows the intellectual poverty of the Borg, they were simply unable to create this weapon themselves).

It's more likely that they simply won't be able to assimilate any of the other three, and their ability to fight them will be severely hampered by the fact that they really don't cope well with being slashed, chopped, and otherwise mangled up close, which are very much de rigeur for the Zerg and Orks.

The Flood are similarly a bad choice for this scenario. The Flood do not have any independent FTL capability, so unless someone goes to wherever they are and an infection reaches a state at which the flood can organise and steal some ships, they're out of the picture.

So, the fight is really Zerg vs. Orks. Which will be a hugely entertaining fight for the Orks, of which there are too many for the Zerg to defeat (whenever the Imperium of Man has looked for transmissions beyond the galaxy, all it has ever found is Orks. They are everywhere.)

The Glyphstone

2011-10-29, 04:12 PM

Where has GW said Orks are extragalactic? They're endemic to this galaxy, but the Tyranids were the only extragalactic race the last time I paid any attention to the canon.

hamishspence

2011-10-29, 04:14 PM

Nids do have warp travel, actually. They've got these giant spacefaring creatures called Narwhals(the jedi of the sea) that 'burrow' tunnels through the warp, with the rest of the hive fleet riding along in their 'slipstream' of sorts. It's more of a Point A to Point B direct trip than the current-surfing other races can do, but it's not strictly STL.

It's not actually worded as using the warp at all- but it is a kind of FTL, yes:

Tyranid Hive Fleets do not travel through Warpspace. Nonetheless, the Hive Fleets' incredible rate of advance belies the supposition that they are bereft of a swift mode of travel. Whilst it is true that the Tyranids are constrained by sublight speeds whilst within the borders of a planetary system, they are capable of far greater velocity when traversing interstellar space. That they can do so is thanks to a small, almost innocuous vessel classified by the Imperium as a Narvhal.

Unlike most Tyranid vessels, a Narvhal is almost completely defenseless, with little in the way of bio-weaponry and a comparatively thin protective carapace. A cluster of monofilament spines on the Narvhal's bow enable it to interpret a wide range of sensory input, including an unbelievably broad spectrum of gravimetric signals. Using these senses, the Narvhal is able to detect planetary systems at incredible distances. It can then somehow harness that system's own gravity, creating a compressed transit corridor through which the Narvhal, and nearby vessels, can cover vast distances. This method cannot be used near to strong gravitational forces, as they drown out the more subtle traces that the Narvhal uses to navigate. As a result, a Tyranid fleet must rely on conventional propulsion in the final approach, in some cases slowing their arrival by years, or even decades. Whilst this combined propulsion method is slower than Warp travel, it is infinitely more reliable, allowing the Tyranids to conduct their implacable encroachment across the galaxy.

The Narvhal's manipulation of a star system's underlying forces is not always without side effects. A prey planet will sometimes be subjected to earthquakes, solar flares, and other natural disasters between the Narvhal casting its gravitic snare and the Tyranid fleet actually arriving. This only benefits the Tyranids' efforts, guaranteeing as it does that the defenders of the target world will still be wrestling with planetary disaster when the swarm arrives in orbit.

The Glyphstone

2011-10-29, 04:26 PM

Neato.:smalltongue:

Though that makes Duty Calls from the Cain books noncanon to a degree, since it features tyranid bioships emerging from warp portals.

hamishspence

2011-10-29, 04:31 PM

Given that Cain thinks the Necrons have warp portals, it's possible that the "gravitic tunnels" at the edge of the system can also be mistaken for warp portals by them.

Also, I think Duty Calls was written some time before the 5e Tyranid codex came out.

The Glyphstone

2011-10-29, 04:41 PM

I'm quite certain it was, actually.

hamishspence

2011-10-29, 04:47 PM

Yup- Duty Calls came out May 2007, 5E Tyranid Codex came out January 2010.

The Glyphstone

2011-10-29, 08:30 PM

So just a retcon then. And much cooler this way anyhow - Tyranids just aren't a threat if they can't go FTL, but being warp-travelling entities never made a ton of sense anyways.