Raptorans, any benefit?

[Mclane]

I've looked through races of the wild at least three times and can't find anything. Is the only benefit of the raptoran the fact that they can fly at later levels?

[Hirax]

They're not particularly optimal for anything, other options such as dragonborn tend to be more popular for flight. You would only ever pick them for flavor, really.

[Amphetryon]

If you can't use Dragonborn, they're one of the few LA +0 options to fly without magic. I think Raptorans came out first, so they were the go-to option for a short period, and comparing to later materials is sometimes wonky.

For an archer build with an exotic feel, some players like the footbow, which is harder to justify for other races. That makes Raptorans a decent if not spectacular choice if you're headed into Exotic Weapon Master.

[Big Fau]

Raptorians are the only race that can have a Fly speed without paying 100gp, which matters if you start at 1st level.


However, Dragonborn Raptorian is akin to getting two Dragonborn traits, since you keep the wings. So they are actually really good for Dragonborn.

[sonofzeal]

Er..... and, y'know, not everyone takes Dragonborn. Just sayin'.

[Yora]

No! We are all playing Optimizer RPG! We pick anything about our character only on the ground of what's most effective. Fluff does not exist!

[etrpgb]

Another reason to be raptorian, but once again Dragonborn also do the same, is that they can make a dive attack* with any piercing weapons. Not only talons or claws.
*flying charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm) that does x2 damage.

Anyhow, the best way to fly LA0 is:
Warforged Construct Incarnate Winged ;)

[Talya]

I just want to point out the joy of Raptoran Dragonborn, who get to keep raptoran flight (despite some misunderstood ideas that raptoran flight would stop progressing if one became dragonborn) and therefore take a different dragonborn ability. ;)

Anyway, that +10 jump check from level one makes for a sweet Tiger Claw TOB specialist, too.

[pilvento]

Free wings for your VoP barbarian bear warrior warshaper werebear! :smallcool:

[AMFV]

They are exactly 2 words from being raptors, what more could you want. They don't get flight till late, but hey flight is flight, and when it's practically free it's pretty nice.

[Daftendirekt]

All you people who keep typing Raptorian... THERE'S NO "I".

[Talya]

All you people who keep typing Raptorian... THERE'S NO "I".

Perhaps you wish to play a Raptorian Rouge.


*ducks*

[Amphetryon]

Perhaps you wish to play a Raptorian Rouge.


*ducks*

Only if the DM has banned Tomb of Battle. :smallwink:

[Steward]

That book is almost as broken as Womb of Magic.

[AugustNights]

Only if the DM has banned Tomb of Battle. :smallwink:

As any DM in their right mind might. I mean, have you what it provides in the ways of enchanted items?

[Daftendirekt]

Only if the DM has banned Tomb of Battle. :smallwink:

You mean the Tome of Horrors? Why would they ban a module?

[etrpgb]

Incredibly lame pun contest?

[DarkestKnight]

i actually think that raptorans are quite good, especially to enter the stormlord of talos prc. bird tossing around lightning bolts? yes please.

as to the possible completion of puns, i would like to lay a few ground rules should this occur.
1: no fowl jokes, they must be plucked clean for these forums.
2: no repeating earlier puns, specifically keywords, please don't grouse about this.
3: all who compete must agree that the pun is the lowest form of humor unless you think of it first.

with that said i think that people should refrain from just winging it on their puns, lest they find themselves at the bottom of the pecking order.

[Elvencloud]

Incredibly lame pun contest?

More like an incredibly fun contest!

[Vattic]

yeah, the benefit is lots of fun roleplaying, and the chance to learn a lot about the flying rules in the system and use them to your advantage. having a flying bowman can be really neat, but i also like the idea of a flying paladin with those foot spike things raptorans are known for.

in addition, the art in the races of the wild book depicts them as kind of vulcan-y, which i love. so yes, lots of benefit to playing one. are they super optimized? no. Not at all. but they are fun to play.

[Fizban]

One advantage is that Raptorans get their flight sooner. They get limited flight at 5HD instead of 6, and full flight at 10HD instead of 12. That could end up mattering quite a bit.

[Mclane]

So, just to clarify, there aren't any ability bonuses that I missed anywhere in the book? They just fly, are flavorful and have skill bonuses?

[Daftendirekt]

So, just to clarify, there aren't any ability bonuses that I missed anywhere in the book? They just fly, are flavorful and have skill bonuses?

Correct.

Although, as I made use of in the one Raptoran I've played so far (a ninja), flight and a +10 to jump are mighty fun.

It's amazing how different the game is when you think in 3 dimensions. I wouldn't mind playing another Raptoran some time.

[Mclane]

Okay, awesome. I just got made DM of my group, and I wanted more fluff from the party, so a Raptoran seems perfect. Would Ranger be a good class for them do you think?

[Lord.Sorasen]

So, just to clarify, there aren't any ability bonuses that I missed anywhere in the book? They just fly, are flavorful and have skill bonuses?

It's not worth much, but also low-light vision, footbow familiarity, "knows where North is", and air spells at 1 caster level higher.

Also ranger wouldn't be bad. The archery style would probably go well with your footbow, and maybe somehow you could get two bows for ultimate bow having.

Though I'm going to say that I would personally prefer a scout/ranger to straight ranger, especially with a race like raptoran, which won't have much trouble moving about, really.

[Aevio]

Okay, awesome. I just got made DM of my group, and I wanted more fluff from the party, so a Raptoran seems perfect. Would Ranger be a good class for them do you think?

I don't see why not. Get a flying animal companion, and the two of you can take to the skies together. Free archery feats make great use of the footbow, and a standard Ranger 16/Scout 4 Swifthunter build makes full use of natural flight for skirmish damage.

At one point, I was trying to make a Raptoran Druid, focusing on air/thunder spells, who absolutely refused to wildshape into anything without wings (an innate fear of losing his connection to the sky). I was planning on eventually going Skypledged, but I ended up trashing the entire concept when I got depressed because it was obvious that Clerics make extensively better Skypledged than Druids do.

[Mclane]

I suppose that's true, but I don't want to deal with multiclassing. Scout would be a good idea though. My main issue would be with the lower base attack bonus progression, but with my planned prestige class, which has full BAB progression, I suppose it wouldn't be too bad. Plus if I can get the two meat shields to stay playing meat shields, I should survive just fine too. Thanks for the help guys. :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

I can't believe only one person vaguely mentioned this, but Raptorans make fantastic Air-based clerics. If you want to rule the skies with a wind-based caster, a raptoran cleric is a great choice with their racial sub-levels. (The fact that you don't need to burn a 3rd level spell per encounter to keep yourself in the air is always good too)

[Aevio]

I can't believe only one person vaguely mentioned this, but Raptorans make fantastic Air-based clerics. If you want to rule the skies with a wind-based caster, a raptoran cleric is a great choice with their racial sub-levels. (The fact that you don't need to burn a 3rd level spell per encounter to keep yourself in the air is always good too)

I noticed that too, but since Druids just feel more thematic for a Skypledged, I really wanted to play it as a Druid instead of a Cleric. But then I realized that I'd basically be screwing myself out of 10 levels of wildshape progression and animal companion progression. Cleric really does have it good for PrCs, where all their stuff is frontloaded on the first level.

[Aevio]

I suppose that's true, but I don't want to deal with multiclassing. Scout would be a good idea though. My main issue would be with the lower base attack bonus progression, but with my planned prestige class, which has full BAB progression, I suppose it wouldn't be too bad. Plus if I can get the two meat shields to stay playing meat shields, I should survive just fine too. Thanks for the help guys. :smallbiggrin:

I'm afraid I don't really understand the idea of "not wanting to deal with" multiclassing. I mean, unless you're playing with multiclass rules (DMs that still use them should be smacked in the head with the closest copy of the DMG), there really aren't any complications. And with Scout 4, you only lose 1 BAB over the course of 20 levels.

Honestly, you could do it as Ranger 17/Scout 3 (Which grants you Hide in Plain Sight from your Ranger levels, versus picking up a bonus feat through an extra Scout level), but you don't get any extra points in your saving throws on Ranger 17, and you only get 1 extra level 3 spell per day.

But the general idea is you get 3 levels in Scout by level 6 and pick up Swift Hunter, which makes your Ranger and Scout levels stack for determining your Skirmish damage. Then you pick up Greater Manyshot ASAP and spam the hell out of it, because you can use it as a Standard Action, and every arrow gets your Skirmish damage tacked on to it. Which, of course, also stacks with the Splitting Arrow spell, and the Splitting bow enchantment.

[Zaq]

Honestly, flight on its own counts for a lot. I also like the fact that they get bonuses that nearly any class/build can benefit from (honestly, who doesn't need or want flight, aside from basically Shadowcraft Mages abusing Earth Spell?) without any stat penalties. The longer I play, the more I dislike stat penalties . . . sure, you always choose them to minimize their impact (when you can, at least), but they're annoying. A race that gives you something cool without stat penalties is worth a second look.

As for whether they make good Rangers . . . eh, without going Wildshape Ranger and/or Mystic Ranger, Rangers are pretty weak overall, but raptorans aren't any worse at Rangering than anyone else is, really.


I noticed that too, but since Druids just feel more thematic for a Skypledged, I really wanted to play it as a Druid instead of a Cleric. But then I realized that I'd basically be screwing myself out of 10 levels of wildshape progression and animal companion progression. Cleric really does have it good for PrCs, where all their stuff is frontloaded on the first level.

Favored Soul actually makes a fantastic entry into Skypledged. It's basically the equivalent of a Sorcerer going into Mage of the Arcane Order, only with a spell known prereq instead of a feat prereq.

[Aevio]

Favored Soul actually makes a fantastic entry into Skypledged. It's basically the equivalent of a Sorcerer going into Mage of the Arcane Order, only with a spell known prereq instead of a feat prereq.

Doesn't make me feel any better about my poor Druid Raptoran that will never come to be :P

[Psyren]

I can't believe only one person vaguely mentioned this, but Raptorans make fantastic Air-based clerics. If you want to rule the skies with a wind-based caster, a raptoran cleric is a great choice with their racial sub-levels. (The fact that you don't need to burn a 3rd level spell per encounter to keep yourself in the air is always good too)

Not to mention their kickass PrC, Skypledged - aka the divine MotAO. You can call any cleric or druid spell (regardless of your own base class), aside from those with the Earth/Fire/Water descriptor and domain spells; this of course leaves you with all kinds of goodies to draw upon, like getting True Resurrection, Miracle, Astral Projection, Gate, or Mass Heal on your Druid, turning you into a pseudo-archivist that automatically knows almost the entirety of two lists instead of having to track down his spells scroll-by-scroll.

On top of that are your other class features: A 15HD Air Elemental pet at level 13, 20th level wild shape (Huge Air Elemental) at level 16, feather fall at-will, the ability to change the prevailing wind speed (up to 4 categories), and the ability to surround yourself in a massive cyclone that knocks around all enemies adjacent to you but doesn't harm you at all.

EDIT: Ninja'ed. I personally think Druid is the better entry to Skypledged though. Sure you lose animal companion progression, but if you like being an air elemental then you effectively lose no Wild Shape progression at all. More importantly, the lackluster druid spell list has a lot more to gain from the spellpool than the cleric one does (see the spells I listed above.)

[etrpgb]

So, just to clarify, there aren't any ability bonuses that I missed anywhere in the book? They just fly, are flavorful and have skill bonuses?

And dive charge with any piercing weapon. It might be interesting if you want to make an ubercharger. With a valorous spear you have x3 instead of x2 without mount.

[Aevio]

EDIT: Ninja'ed. I personally think Druid is the better entry to Skypledged though. Sure you lose animal companion progression, but if you like being an air elemental then you effectively lose no Wild Shape progression at all.

I have a feeling you've never played a Druid before. By taking 10 levels in Skypledged, you lose 2/Day Wildshape uses, Wildshape (Plant), Wildshape (Huge), Wildshape (Elemental 3/Day), and Thousand Faces. Plus, Skypledged levels don't stack with Druid levels for Wildshape duration. The Air Elemental "wildshape" that you claim makes up for all of this has a 1 minute duration, 1/Day.

This doesn't take into account that at level 20, your animal companion is going to be 10 levels behind, essentially requiring taking Natural Bond twice to make up the difference, so your companion isn't useless in combat.

I'm not saying that certain concepts can't make a Druid/Skypledged concept work, but there just aren't any ACFs that replace Wildshape and Animal Companion that are good enough to make it worth everything you give up in the process. It's not because Skypledged is that bad, it's because Druid 20 is just that GOOD.

That's why Cleric/Skypledged is so much better. Since Clerics get everything frontloaded onto level 1, the only reason they have to NOT PrC out ASAP is if the DM's pruned the available source material in such a way that there are no full progression prestige classes.


More importantly, the lackluster druid spell list has a lot more to gain from the spellpool than the cleric one does (see the spells I listed above.)

lolwut? Ok, now I think you REALLY haven't played a druid before xD

[Psyren]

Right back at you - spells beat an animal companion and wildshape any day of the week. They're nice to have, certainly, but neither of those things are what make the Druid T1, otherwise Wildshape Rangers would be T1 too.

Druids do get nice spells, but other than Shapechange (which Skypledged get too regardless of entry) the Cleric list is still stronger. The Holy Word line, various flavors of resurrection/reanimation, Miracle (which in itself gives you every 7th and lower arcane spell, or any 8th and lower domain spell), Gate/Plane Shift, Mass Heal, Harm, even basics like Pro Evil and Status.

You also get other great spells at a lower level than you would as a Druid. Heal and Word of Recall as 6ths, instead of 7th and 8th respectively. True Seeing as 5th instead of 7th. Death Ward as a 4th instead of 5th, and so on.

[Aevio]

Right back at you - spells beat an animal companion and wildshape any day of the week. They're nice to have, certainly, but neither of those things are what make the Druid T1, otherwise Wildshape Rangers would be T1 too.

Wildshape, by itself, brings Rangers up to T3 from T4, which is a testament to how strong the feature is. The fact that full progression spellcasting breaks the game doesn't make Wildshape unimportant. Especially since most Druid builds revolve around dumping Str/Dex, taking Natural Spell, and sitting in animal form all day.

And from playing the Ranger, you should know that partial progression animal companions become useless pretty quickly. They serve as an extra pair of eyes, then run away and cower when combat rolls around, because they'll get squished if they don't.

Purely from an optimization perspective, there's just no reason to take Skypledged as a druid, when there are other options that allow your class features to continue progressing.


Druids do get nice spells, but other than Shapechange (which Skypledged get too regardless of entry) the Cleric list is still stronger. The Holy Word line, various flavors of resurrection/reanimation, Miracle (which in itself gives you every 7th and lower arcane spell, or any 8th and lower domain spell), Gate/Plane Shift, Mass Heal, Harm, even basics like Pro Evil and Status.

You also get other great spells at a lower level than you would as a Druid. Heal and Word of Recall as 6ths, instead of 7th and 8th respectively. True Seeing as 5th instead of 7th. Death Ward as a 4th instead of 5th, and so on.

Look, when you're talking about two Tier 1 classes, the difference between "better spell lists" is like calling somebody's C4 ineffective, because it's not Napalm. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter which list you're pulling from, because you're still rearranging the cosmos, no matter how you look at it.

[Talya]

In a self-sufficiency competition, the druid kicks the cleric's ass all the way from here to the abyss and back. The druid's spell list is offensively more powerful AND has more utility; the druid is more durable; the druid is more powerful without bothering to cast spells, and the druid has backup.

The only way the cleric is more effective is because it's not a solo game...the cleric makes his party more effective, while the druid is simply a goddess in her own right.

Of course, being a team game, that means the best combination you can have is Druid AND Cleric. But yeah. Let's not pretend the druid spell list is somehow lacklustre. It's not.

[etrpgb]

But no Wish or Time Stop for druids... (Right?)

[Talya]

But no Wish or Time Stop for druids... (Right?)

There's likely some way to get it, people seem able to cheese just about everything, but in general, yes, you're right.

That said, there's no wish AND time stop for clerics, either. With the right domains, a cleric might get one or the other, once per day. Which is nice. But you don't judge a class by what they can do once per day. You also don't judge a class solely (or even primarily) by what they can do at the end game, either. Most gameplay takes place between 1-10.

[etrpgb]

I do not know... at this level of power it might be important.

[Talya]

The druid DOES get Shapechange, which, in my opinion, is the single most powerful (and broken) level 9 spell in the game.

[Psyren]

Purely from an optimization perspective, there's just no reason to take Skypledged as a druid, when there are other options that allow your class features to continue progressing.


"Purely from an optimization perspective," nothing makes any sense except Pun-Pun, so that standpoint is equally meaningless.


Wildshape, by itself, brings Rangers up to T3 from T4, which is a testament to how strong the feature is. The fact that full progression spellcasting breaks the game doesn't make Wildshape unimportant. Especially since most Druid builds revolve around dumping Str/Dex, taking Natural Spell, and sitting in animal form all day.

Why would you pick Raptoran at all then? If you're going to be an animal "all day," clearly the Raptoran's flight is meaningless and you're better off as something else. If "pure optimization" is your primary goal, you wouldn't have made such a subpar choice to begin with.


And from playing the Ranger, you should know that partial progression animal companions become useless pretty quickly. They serve as an extra pair of eyes, then run away and cower when combat rolls around, because they'll get squished if they don't.

So? Not having an animal companion is hardly a deal-breaker. The other T1s get along just fine without one. Again, that isn't what makes a Druid T1.

In terms of "I can do something unique and still be fully effective at my role," Skypledged is a great choice.


Look, when you're talking about two Tier 1 classes, the difference between "better spell lists" is like calling somebody's C4 ineffective, because it's not Napalm. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter which list you're pulling from, because you're still rearranging the cosmos, no matter how you look at it.

I notice you haven't actually addressed any of the spell differences I raised. Druids blast better, certainly, but before 9ths (read: the majority of a non-epic campaign), I'll still take the Cleric list. Druids only catch up thanks to Shapechange (which is moot to this discussion since Skypledged get it at the exact same time they do.)

When the Cleric - or Skypledged Druid - needs True Seeing at 11, they both have it, whereas the regular Druid has to wait 2 more levels.

[Flickerdart]

That +1 CL to air spells can come in handy, since there's a couple of good ones. Belker Claws (SpC) is a decent DoT spell, which the CL boost helps out, and then of course there's Wind Wall.

[Aevio]

"Purely from an optimization perspective," nothing makes any sense except Pun-Pun, so that standpoint is equally meaningless.

No, that's from a "purely from ignoring RAI, and utterly breaking the game" perspective. Optimization is not the same as munchkining. I really shouldn't have to lecture somebody about this every other day.




Why would you pick Raptoran at all then? If you're going to be an animal "all day," clearly the Raptoran's flight is meaningless and you're better off as something else. If "pure optimization" is your primary goal, you wouldn't have made such a subpar choice to begin with.

Optimization involves picking the best choices within a defined set of parameters. The current parameters involve playing as a Raptoran. Considering the best class for a Druid (or Cleric for that matter) is probably a Human, or any class with a +Wis bonus and no LA, it should automatically be assumed that this discussion is taking place within the boundaries of a specific race/class combination. Otherwise, the discussion begins branching into completely unrelated tangents, and eventually becomes impossible to follow.

So please, for the sake of everybody's sanity, please don't bring up tangents like this.


So? Not having an animal companion is hardly a deal-breaker. The other T1s get along just fine without one. Again, that isn't what makes a Druid T1.

Yeah, I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. I don't want to give up half my wildshaping and animal companion progression for a handful of crappy class features. Period.


I notice you haven't actually addressed any of the spell differences I raised. Druids blast better, certainly, but before 9ths (read: the majority of a non-epic campaign), I'll still take the Cleric list. Druids only catch up thanks to Shapechange (which is moot to this discussion since Skypledged get it at the exact same time they do.)

I "haven't actually addressed it," because your assertion that it matters is ridiculous, and is grounded in some alternate reality where a class somehow needs to be "more tier 1."

[Psyren]

No, that's from a "purely from ignoring RAI, and utterly breaking the game" perspective. Optimization is not the same as munchkining. I really shouldn't have to lecture somebody about this every other day.

But your decisions are now arbitrary. Why is limiting your build in one way healthy and desirable, yet another limitation a deal-breaker? What does the lack of animal companion and wildshape detract from the build that access to the cleric list (and a huge chunk of the arcane list, XP-free, via Miracle) not compensate for?

To which I answer: not a thing.


Yeah, I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. I don't want to give up half my wildshaping and animal companion progression for a handful of crappy class features. Period.

9 levels of cleric spells are crappy now? :smallconfused:


I "haven't actually addressed it," because your assertion that it matters is ridiculous, and is grounded in some alternate reality where a class somehow needs to be "more tier 1."

Merely stating that an argument is ridiculous and being utterly unable to support your point is itself ridiculous.

[ranagrande]

Skypledged is indeed a good reason to be a Raptoran. I think it's best for classes with more limited spell lists like Apostle of Peace or Divine Crusader or Healer.

[Aevio]

But your decisions are now arbitrary. Why is limiting your build in one way healthy and desirable, yet another limitation a deal-breaker? What does the lack of animal companion and wildshape detract from the build that access to the cleric list (and a huge chunk of the arcane list, XP-free, via Miracle) not compensate for?

To which I answer: not a thing.



9 levels of cleric spells are crappy now? :smallconfused:



Merely stating that an argument is ridiculous and being utterly unable to support your point is itself ridiculous.

I refuse to continue this debate. Your responses are becoming more and more tangential and detracting from my original point.

Original point: Clerics are better choices for Skypledged than Druids because they, as a class, lose almost nothing by PrCing out as soon as possible, while the same cannot be said for Druids.

[Greenish]

Raptoran druid going Skypledged might consider swapping Wildshape and Animal Companion for the UA alternatives.

[Zaq]

OK, seriously, this argument is silly.

Raptoran Cleric/Skypledged:
-Domains
-Non-Core Cleric spells (prepped)
-Core Cleric spells on tap
-Core Druid spells on tap
-Skypledged class features

Raptoran Druid/Skypledged:
-Mostly unprogressed Druid stuff (Wildshape, AC, etc.)
-Non-Core Druid spells (prepped)
-Core Cleric spells on tap
-Core Druid spells on tap
-Skypledged class features

Unprogressed Druid stuff isn't godly, but is still useful. Domains are useful on their own. Non-Core Cleric spells and non-Core Druid spells are both very useful. Having all of the Core Cleric and Druid spells on tap pretty much dwarfs everything else, though, and they're really about the same when you get down to it. Fundamentally, it's about which list has a nicer non-Core setup . . . but both entry classes will be functionally quite similar. Still different, no denying that, but not so different as to warrant this argument.

They're both taking T1 classes and making them even better (in pretty much exactly the same way). That's enough, isn't it?

[Aevio]

Raptoran druid going Skypledged might consider swapping Wildshape and Animal Companion for the UA alternatives.

You know, I only just now found the Deadly Hunter variant. I never noticed the "Other Variants" section of UA before x.x

[Aevio]

OK, seriously, this argument is silly.

Raptoran Cleric/Skypledged:
-Domains
-Non-Core Cleric spells (prepped)
-Core Cleric spells on-tap
-Core Druid spells on-tap
-Skypledged class features

Raptoran Druid/Skypledged:
-Mostly unprogressed Druid stuff (Wildshape, AC, etc.)
-Non-Core Druid spells (prepped)
-Core Cleric spells on tap
-Core Druid spells on tap
-Skypledged class features

Unprogressed Druid stuff isn't godly, but is still useful. Domains are useful on their own. Non-Core Cleric spells and non-Core Druid spells are both very useful. Having all of the Core Cleric and Druid spells on tap pretty much dwarfs everything else, though, and they're really about the same when you get down to it. Fundamentally, it's about which list has a nicer non-Core setup . . . but both entry classes will be functionally quite similar. Still different, no denying that, but not so different as to warrant this argument.

They're both taking T1 classes and making them even better (in pretty much exactly the same way). That's enough, isn't it?

That's the thing, I never even intended on getting into that argument. Obviously both classes benefit, due to the expanded spell lists. I just, personally, didn't like running into a PrC that left my druid class features half-progressed, and it discouraged me from creating the character in the first place.

The fact that the Cleric is a "better" choice in this case, simply taking into account what each class loses during the PrC, was an accidental realization, and one that I stated as a matter of fact, not as a point of contention I actually wanted to debate.

[Psyren]

Original point: Clerics are better choices for Skypledged than Druids because they, as a class, lose almost nothing by PrCing out as soon as possible, while the same cannot be said for Druids.

And my point is that, while Druids do give up more (wild shape, animal companion), they also gain more (far better spells below 9, and better 9ths aside from Shapechange.) It's a wash.

And again, if you were that interested in being fully-optimized Druid, you wouldn't be a Raptoran to begin with.

Now feel free to ignore me if you wish, I'm done too.

(Also, Skypledged don't have Know (Religion), but they do have Know (Nature.) This seems to imply that Druid is the intended entry.)

[hex0]

You know, I only just now found the Deadly Hunter variant. I never noticed the "Other Variants" section of UA before x.x

Wow. That would be nice for a Druid/Skypledged. Too bad Earth Elementals are immune to crits.

The Cleric Sub levels meld well with Skypledged too.

But I'm not seeing that it requires divine spells for Skypledged in the first place :smallcool:

[ranagrande]

Wow. That would be nice for a Druid/Skypledged. Too bad Earth Elementals are immune to crits.

The Cleric Sub levels meld well with Skypledged too.

But I'm not seeing that it requires divine spells for Skypledged in the first place :smallcool:
It doesn't require divine spells for Skypledged. However, since each level of the PrC increases your caster level in a previous divine spellcasting class, it would be kind of silly not to have one.

[Psyren]

You need to cast either SMIV or SNAIV. It may be possible to get those with less than 7 levels in a casting base class (or 4 levels in an applicable fast-casting class like Ur-Priest) but I can't think of a way off the top of my head.

You could get in with an arcane class but it wouldn't do you much good once you did.

[hex0]

It doesn't require divine spells for Skypledged. However, since each level of the PrC increases your caster level in a previous divine spellcasting class, it would be kind of silly not to have one.

Ah. VERY good point.

[Aevio]

Wow. That would be nice for a Druid/Skypledged. Too bad Earth Elementals are immune to crits.

Not sure what earth elementals have to do with the discussion, so I'm a little confused about this statement.

Question though, does anybody know if movement enhancement bonuses work with flying speed? Or is it only walking speed?

[hex0]

What does anyone think about Stormtalon? I know it is basically a specialist fighter, but your talons could be improved with improved natural attack to 2d6? Decent melee build with racial sub levels for fighter maybe?

[hex0]

Not sure what earth elementals have to do with the discussion, so I'm a little confused about this statement.


Just from the flavor of fighting off the other Elements.

[ranagrande]

What does anyone think about Stormtalon? I know it is basically a specialist fighter, but your talons could be improved with improved natural attack to 2d6? Decent melee build with racial sub levels for fighter maybe?
If I was making a melee-type Raptoran, I would probably do a two-level dip in Stormtalon to get the talon attack and a free feat. I wouldn't want any more than that though, as other classes will offer much more. Improved Natural Attack would only increase the damage to 1d8, so I'm not sure if I would spend a feat on it.

[Aevio]

If I was making a melee-type Raptoran, I would probably do a two-level dip in Stormtalon to get the talon attack and a free feat. I wouldn't want any more than that though, as other classes will offer much more. Improved Natural Attack would only increase the damage to 1d8, so I'm not sure if I would spend a feat on it.

Yeah I just took a look at Stormtalon, and... it's flavorful... but to be completely honest, it's actually worse than the core Fighter. Your bonus feats are limited to a very small list that only nominally improve your combat effectiveness. And your other class features include making your full attack better and gaining more movement speed; neither of which actually help any of the problems that Fighters have in the first place.

Like I said, very flavorful. Still tier 5. Still worse than the core Fighter.

[Crasical]

Raptoran are winged humanoids, right? If you like japanese mythology, you could seek out a build that has martial arts and wind magic and play as a Tengu.

[Psyren]

Raptoran are winged humanoids, right? If you like japanese mythology, you could seek out a build that has martial arts and wind magic and play as a Tengu.

There are even Raptorans in ToB (such as, fittingly, the White Raven master guy)