Blood Magic - Do you think this works?

[Yora]

I love the idea of blood magic, but I am not a huge fan of overly complex sub-systems.

So my idea for a blood magic system is very simple:

Blood Magic [General]
Prerequisite: Wisdom 13, caster level 1st.
Benefit: You add the spells of the Blood Magic spell list to the spell lists of all your arcane and divine spellcasting clases.
In addition, you can spontaneously add the effect of any metamagic feat you have to any spell you cast without increasing the casting time or using a higher level spell slot. Instead, you take 2 points of ability burn to your constitution score for every increase in the spell slot level the feat normally has. This special type of ability damage can only be regained through natural healing and can not be healed magically. If you can use a metamagic feat without having to use higher level slots, you still take a minimum ability burn of 1 point of constitution.

Blood Mage spell list
0: daze, touch of fatigue
1st: command, ray of enfeeblement
2nd: death knell, ghoul touch, hold person
3rd: rage, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch
4th: enervation
5th: waves of fatigue
7th: Waves of Exhaustion
9th: energy drain

Too good? Too bad? What do you think?

[Circle of Life]

Rather than burn away your constitution entirely, which has far-reaching ramifications, I'd rather see it be like ability burn for hitpoints only, coming back only after an extended rest. It's a neat idea though, and I like the way it functions like divine metamagic for prepared casters. :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

Rather than burn away your constitution entirely, which has far-reaching ramifications, I'd rather see it be like ability burn for hitpoints only, coming back only after an extended rest. It's a neat idea though, and I like the way it functions like divine metamagic for prepared casters. :smallsmile:

Ability Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn) isn't Ability Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained), btb. The points do come back, just only by natural rest and things that adjust that rate, which are around if you look.

As for the feat, I think 1 point of Constitution Burn per SL sounds better and realistic to me. The major metamagic is already +2 SL or higher as-is, so they'll get hit by the hp loss for the majority of casting. I'd keep the minimum cost on there, too. 1 point of Con Burn is significant damage and I think adequate.

For the prereq, I think a Con of 13 should be included or perhaps switched for the Wis requirement, as I'd think you'd need to be healthy enough to have experimented with your own life force to learn this without killing yourself by accident.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Circle of Life]

Ability Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn) isn't Ability Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained), btb. The points do come back, just only by natural rest and things that adjust that rate, which are around if you look.

Uh, yes, I know. I was saying that draining fort saves, concentration checks, con checks for everything, etc, seems too harsh. Making it function like hitpoint burn (I suppose I could have been clearer) was what I was suggesting.

[Yora]

But hit points are cheap. As long as you have 1 left, you're allright. But with only 5 points left in Constitution, you are in a really bad shape.

1 Con burn per spell-level increase seems reasonable. I forgot that you still have to have a bunch of Con points left after you're done with the encounter.

I was considering a minimum Con score, but I'm unsure.
However, ability scores are not highly defined in d20, so high constitution spellcasters wouldn't have to be big guys used to hard work. In the case of blood mages, it could also represent to ability to stay alive and conscious even though one is in a horrible state and through a lot of exertions. The character wouldn't shrug it off, but he would still keep on his legs. Without that ability, one would simply not be able to complete the basic exercices to learn blood magic.
Maybe it would be quite appropriate.

[Circle of Life]

But hit points are cheap. As long as you have 1 left, you're allright. But with only 5 points left in Constitution, you are in a really bad shape.

Yeah, you are. Terrible shape, actually. Ask yourself, would you ever lose six points of constitution to maximize one spell? I can think of a few fringe cases where I might - last spell of the day, ensure you kill a BBEG, etc - but all in all? As it is, I wouldn't take the feat over any other metamagic reducer. The spells are nice, but not really critical to the purpose of the feat.


1 Con burn per spell-level increase seems reasonable. I forgot that you still have to have a bunch of Con points left after you're done with the encounter.

It's slightly more reasonable, yes. Out of curiosity, how often do you see a hypothetical *insert spellcaster of choice here* using this feat, and do you see the cost as being in line with that expectation?

[Yora]

I am actually expecting "x serious encounters per week", not 4 encounters of CL = EL per day. It's for a campaign in which combat is a means of last resort and not the common procedure, and often it will not be to the death (with many casses of retreat or surrender).

You can use blood magic once per day on a minor metamagic feat and will be fine the next morning. Use it three times and you'll have a -1 penalty to Fortitude and -1 hp/level the following day. I think it's not that bad.

The direct competitor here would be Sudden Metamagic feats. Those feats can be used 1/day, but only with one specific metamagic feat. Since Blood Magic can be used with any metamagic feat you have, I think it looks quite good in compairison.
Blood Magic can be used much more often without taking additional feats, which is really good, so I think you should also have to pay quite a bit for it. Knowing Bear's Endurance to compensate for Con loss would probably be a quite common practice among blood mages.

Question is, if Sudden Metamagic feats are actually good? I think when they come up in optimization, it's usually as wands.

[Circle of Life]

Question is, if Sudden Metamagic feats are actually good? I think when they come up in optimization, it's usually as wands.

Beyond the very lowest of levels, they're pretty terrible. Burning one or more feats (or many, many more, in the case of Sudden Quicken) for 1/day effects is a Bad Idea.

That said, if the idea behind the feat is to allow easier use of +1 metamagics, it works. I think it falls apart when you start using anything higher, as the Con cost goes from acceptable to extreme very quickly.

Personally, I would rather see it burn away 1 hp/caster level/adjustment of the metamagic feat. That would allow you to regulate how much you weaken yourself more accurately, since you could voluntarily cast weaker spells at a lower caster level, but with metamagic that you wanted to use, without practically killing yourself. As a side effect, it wouldn't make you all but assured to fail Fort saves after a few uses. If, however, your casters regularly walk around with immunity/near immunity to hitpoint damage, or hitpoint damage isn't used much in your games, or if you want to impose harsher penalties than I seem to be expecting for using the feat, then it looks like a pretty good model for what you're getting at.

[Cieyrin]

But see, that's the thing, there's no meaningful penalty in d20 for lost hit points other than you can take less damage before going unconscious. At higher levels that's easily countered by temporary hit points or ensuring that you don't get hit, which is easy fair for mid level or sometimes earlier, depending on how crafty you get. What's supposed to be a cost is suddenly a free thing. By having it linked with Con, you make it a choice you have to carefully consider: Is short term gains worthwhile compared to long term costs? You don't want to make it worth so much that it's a must-have or a mandatory thing, you want it to be worthwhile when you need to use it. As I said earlier and as has been pointed out, 6 points of Con Burn for a Maximize is a pretty steep price and probably not worthwhile except in dire circumstances, whereas 3 points still hurts but you aren't completely gimped and something you could actually consider without it automatically being suicide.

[Yora]

-2 Con (or even -1) also means 1 hp/character level, -1 Fortitude, and increased danger of being killed by Constitution damage.
It does not allow to underpower a spell for reduced effeciency, but I think in such a case you wouldn't need to apply a metamagic feat on the spot anyway.

[Cieyrin]

-2 Con (or even -1) also means 1 hp/character level, -1 Fortitude, and increased danger of being killed by Constitution damage.
It does not allow to underpower a spell for reduced effeciency, but I think in such a case you wouldn't need to apply a metamagic feat on the spot anyway.

I realize, I'm just saying the penalty should be meaningful for the gains, which at 1 Con Burn/SL seems right. I like having choices, not WIN buttons, so I can actually be challenged and thus have fun as I play.

[Circle of Life]

-2 Con (or even -1) also means 1 hp/character level, -1 Fortitude, and increased danger of being killed by Constitution damage.

Yyees, I think that's what I've been getting at thus far.

It does not allow to underpower a spell for reduced effeciency, but I think in such a case you wouldn't need to apply a metamagic feat on the spot anyway.

So, the grand archmage Archie, 20th level Wizard, decides he needs a single maximized Magic Missile. This will cost him 20 hp or 40 hp, -1 or -2 Fort saves, and -1 or -2 to everything else Constitution related for the day. A 9th level Wizard, who gets the exact same effect from maximizing a Magic Missile with blood magic, only loses 9 hp. Is that intentional?

I'm not trying to rag on your creation, I'm just checking to see if you've considered all the ramifications.

Yes, silly example, could have used a higher level spell without blood magic, etc, etc.

[Cieyrin]

So, the grand archmage Archie, 20th level Wizard, decides he needs a single maximized Magic Missile. This will cost him 20 hp or 40 hp, -1 or -2 Fort saves, and -1 or -2 to everything else Constitution related for the day. A 9th level Wizard, who gets the exact same effect from maximizing a Magic Missile with blood magic, only loses 9 hp. Is that intentional?

I'm not trying to rag on your creation, I'm just checking to see if you've considered all the ramifications.

Yes, silly example, could have used a higher level spell without blood magic, etc, etc.

Does skill naturally change the amount of life you have in you? If Archie is an accomplished Blood Mage, he'd probably spend equal amounts of effort making himself healthier and making up for losses (aka increasing his Con score, getting temp hp, boosting his Fort save). Yora has already mentioned Bear's Endurance is probably popular among regular Blood Magic practitioners. Not to mention Naberious... >_>;;

[Amechra]

It's ability BURN, bub.

Nothing let's you heal that stuff more quickly. NOTHING!

Naberius is helpful against, y'know, some meanie-face-head targetting your now lower Constitution score.

Oh, and there should be an evil version that allows you to use it as Con Burn against a helpless target, you know, to evoke the good old trope of "BLOOD SACRIFICE!"?

[Cieyrin]

It's ability BURN, bub.

Nothing let's you heal that stuff more quickly. NOTHING!

Naberius is helpful against, y'know, some meanie-face-head targetting your now lower Constitution score.

Incorrect. Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody) specifically accelerates healing ability damage. The Long Term Care function of the Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) skill also accelerates ability recovery, as would the Faster Healing feat from Complete Warrior. Healing Hymn also gives you a favorable return, turning 8 hours of rest into the equivalent of 24 hours. Naberious and the Strongheart Vest are perhaps a fringe case, depending on your interpretation of magically or psionically healed and the Strongheart Vest has the same issues here as it does with Hellfire. Naberious' Faster Ability Healing isn't healing so much as accelerating the natural processes.

In any case, with the exception of the Heal skill, most of this isn't relevant to Yora's usage of the feat, given its for core PF + APG. So yes, there are methods, he has to enable them, though. I'd probably bring over Faster Healing over Mind Over Body but that's just me.

[Amechra]

Sorry, I blanked on methods of accelerating natural healing (which is strange, considering I made a class that REQUIRES you to speed up natural healing to get to full power...)

Nothing SUPERNATURAL heals your Ability Burn; Strongheart Vest just blocks the stuff, which, with a little word changing, will also stop the metamagic from applying.