a question I've asked before (TOB)

[big teej]

Greetings playgrounders,

this is a question I'm fairly certain I've asked before, but I can't track down the old thread, and I feel I may be able to better explain this time around.

it is a commonly held assumption that fighters and paladins just are not very good at their jobs, ranking down in tiers 4-6

TOB (as I understand it) uses the warblade, swordsage, and crusader to bring melee up to tier 3.

my question revolves around "out of the box" potential.

now bear with me as I elaborate on this.


my current group consists of the following.
Human Paladin - charging smite variant
Dwarf Figher - Racial sub levels
Gnome Cleric - no variant
human barbarian - no variant
Gnome Bard Elf Duskblade
Elf Druid - no variant
Halfling Rogue - sneaky thiefy type
Human Ranger - TWF.... uses a 2 handed weapon.


now, for those of you not familiar with this group, I describe the optiimization level as "hyper low"
sword and board fighters get by just fine here. (in fact, I've seen them excel)

now, provided I do not need to expand further and re-emphasize just HOW low this group optimizes.


I'll come round to my question.

just how much inherently "better" are TOB classes over original melee?


it's one thing if it's "you can simply do better with them" I can handle that, all my players know if they're playing a really strong class I'm liable to ask them to tone it down a tad.

however. if playing a warblade, YOU CAN'T HELP but overshadow the fighter.... I need to know this now.

because my interest in picking this book up drops dramatically if the 2nd point is correct.


thanks in advance.


related tangent: I've seen some people compare TOB to MOI in terms of power. is this true?

we had a player roll up a totemist for another campaign, but i didn't think it was going to be a huge deal.

similarly, in the same campaign, I'm liable to pick up an incarnate if my Knight dies.
I suppose I can expand on this other campaign if necessary as well. but I'm more concerned about the group I DM for.

[Greenish]

If poorly built sword&board fighters are excelling in your group, warblades will wipe the table clean (if they remember to use maneuvers). There are no real trap maneuvers, and picking poor feats doesn't cripple you.

ToB is about on par with totemist, though easier to play (you pick maneuvers at random, you're good to go, you pick soulmelds at random, well, you're not that well off).

[Flickerdart]

Arrange all level-appropriate maneuvers and stances in a chart. Now roll on that chart every single time you have to pick. You'll still be more versatile than a Fighter. Not more powerful, but more useful.

However, nothing stops any of the ToB classes from, you know, not using their maneuvers. Drop into a stance, use the occasional boost, and then full attack to your heart's content, busting out the Mountain Hammers and Sapphire Nightmare Blades when the situation calls for it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If your players don't optimize, ToB classes will definitely overshadow their counterparts as you can literally select maneuvers at random and they will still be useful. So if you plan to introduce ToB to your group I suggest making a one-shot or a short adventure (two or three sessions long at most I would say) with heavy usaege of ToB, both from the DM side (there are some really neat monsters, the ToB Rakshasa is a personal favourite of mine or humanoid enemies with Tob classes or feats) and the player side, restrict them to ToB classes.

The idea is to introduce ToB in a way all the players can contribute; because if one player uses a non-optimized fighter and another one a Warblade, there will probably be some problems.

However if your players optimize (which I know they don't) ToB classes won't overshadow them, at least in damage dealt, their out of combat utility can't be negated. Mountain hammer is the meleers lockpick, at high levels a Crusader can heal (As the spell) without problems, Swordsages are teleporting, setting stuff on fire or even flying without items.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You'd be more powerful if you rolled randomly to pick maneuvers and only took Stone Dagon stances.

[Aevio]

Yeah, if a low op sword/board fighter is doing well in your game, anything from ToB will completely outshine most (if not all) of your group.

That said, if you pick up a Crusader, and build him to tank and support the group, you're more likely to bring up the power of the entire group a bit, without directly outshining anybody.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, if a low op sword/board fighter is doing well in your game, anything from ToB will completely outshine most (if not all) of your group.

That said, if you pick up a Crusader, and build him to tank and support the group, you're more likely to bring up the power of the entire group a bit, without directly outshining anybody.

big teej is the Dm:smallwink:

[Aevio]

big teej is the Dm:smallwink:

Ok? Does that negate my suggestion in some way that I'm not aware of? I was under the impression that he was asking for the sake of the group in the game. Or is he intending to make enemies using the ToB instead?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok? Does that negate my suggestion in some way that I'm not aware of? I was under the impression that he was asking for the sake of the group in the game. Or is he intending to make enemies using the ToB instead?

The way you phrased our suggestions implied (to me at least) that you were suggesting a build to use in a game, which unless big teej intended to use a DMPC sounded weird. I may have misunderstood your point though.

And introducing ToB enemies seems like overkill considering his claims of low op fu of his group, they would tear through them quite fast, hence my suggestion of the ToB only one-shot

[Greenish]

I was under the impression that he was asking for the sake of the group in the game.He is considering buying ToB and using it in his games.

[big teej]

He is considering buying ToB and using it in his games.

technically, I fully intend to buy it. my goal is to own every 3.0 and 3.5 book ever published. :smallbiggrin:

however, it won't see use in my groups unless/until they reach a high enough op point where it won't break standard melee in half.


but I still want it. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

IF (and I want to stress the if) you want to rise the optimization level of your group I suggest you send them here, we will make sure to get them up to par :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

If you're going to buy the book anyway, give it a shot, that's the best way to see how it'll work in your group. If it's out of line, stop using it.

[Aevio]

technically, I fully intend to buy it. my goal is to own every 3.0 and 3.5 book ever published. :smallbiggrin:

however, it won't see use in my groups unless/until they reach a high enough op point where it won't break standard melee in half.


but I still want it. :smalltongue:

It's a great book. Very flavorful, and it makes playing melee characters a lot more interactive than your standard "I full attack" approach by most martial characters.

But I definitely suggest playing a 1-shot with it before fully allowing it into an actual campaign.

[Hiro Protagonest]

IF (and I want to stress the if) you want to rise the optimization level of your group I suggest you send them here, we will make sure to get them up to par :smallbiggrin:

Tell them there's a cool D&D webcomic. Also tell them that the forums let them discuss D&D stuff, like if they need help building a character. Or they can help others build characters, then learn the semi-hard way as their advice gets blown out of the water.

[Zaq]

Why not let the enemies dabble in it and see how that goes? You don't even have to tell the players where the goblins got those flashy moves. If they're interested in them, go from there. Seems like a slower and gentler introduction than just "hi Mr. Fighter, I'm a Warblade, pleased to meet you. Oh by the way, I'm in your office now."

[Godskook]

At early levels, the power comes in terms of mobility and an extra dice of damage or two(Steel Wind, Mountain Hammer). Mid levels, you start getting into some powerful options that are quite different from normal melee, as well as easy access to options that other melee has to bend over backwards to get(pounce as a manevuer), damage as a bull rush, combat teleportation, etc. At high levels, you're going to notice huge differences in power levels.

[The Cat Goddess]

The easiest thing would be to introduce the manuevers-as-feats for the Fighter-types.

Marital Study & Martial Stance feats allow non-ToB classes to get ToB manuevers... but not so much that they change teirs.

[cfalcon]

You should not use any ToB in your group, given your requirements and groupmates. Obviously, you could play something ludicrously OP in your group and simply not use your abilities, but that's pretty damned cheesy (and condescending).

I run games where a longsword and a shield are a pretty ok way to go about doing stuff, and ToB is way too strong for my games.

Edit: I do recommend you purchase ToB. As for using it, I would say no. Unless your actual goal is to largely replace fighter/barbarian and friends with the ToB dudes. For instance, in my games, no one can have more than one prestige class, and no more than three classes total. Then, I buff the core martial classes, and of course, some spells get nerfed too. The end result still results in superpowered players, but the power difference is not so ludicrous. If your group is already "dipping" into classes for abilities, then ToB should probably be an ok addition- but if your guys are like, Fighter 8... then no, don't use it.

But definitely purchase it. It's a great read, and with the exceptions of some outliers on the good and bad sides, it is reasonably balanced with itself.

[Amphetryon]

You should not use any ToB in your group, given your requirements and groupmates. Obviously, you could play something ludicrously OP in your group and simply not use your abilities, but that's pretty damned cheesy (and condescending).

I run games where a longsword and a shield are a pretty ok way to go about doing stuff, and ToB is way too strong for my games.

Edit: I do recommend you purchase ToB. As for using it, I would say no. Unless your actual goal is to largely replace fighter/barbarian and friends with the ToB dudes. For instance, in my games, no one can have more than one prestige class, and no more than three classes total. Then, I buff the core martial classes, and of course, some spells get nerfed too. The end result still results in superpowered players, but the power difference is not so ludicrous. If your group is already "dipping" into classes for abilities, then ToB should probably be an ok addition- but if your guys are like, Fighter 8... then no, don't use it.

But definitely purchase it. It's a great read, and with the exceptions of some outliers on the good and bad sides, it is reasonably balanced with itself.Do you have Wizards in your games? Clerics? Druids? Sorcerers? Greataxe-wielding Barbarians?

[big teej]

IF (and I want to stress the if) you want to rise the optimization level of your group I suggest you send them here, we will make sure to get them up to par :smallbiggrin:

I actually don't, I like right where we are.

and I"m a HUUUUUUGE fan of self discovery...

I'm okay with telling them about things like chain-gating because it's accompanied with the statement of "I'll stomp on it in a heartbeat" and "anything you can do, so can the bad guys"

and I explained to the only guy in the party who would actually consider chain-gating what happens if the bad guys chain gate balors.....

I want the players to grow at their own pace. as it stands, the paladin and the cleric have the greatest grasp on the system, follwed by the dwarf fighter.


If you're going to buy the book anyway, give it a shot, that's the best way to see how it'll work in your group. If it's out of line, stop using it.

and I may do just that. I also tend to illustrate in game the reasoning for my out of game decisions on ban-lists and the like.

for instance, I recently started using a monk fix.... I made the party fight normal monks, follwed by fixed monks...

the difference was appreciable.



It's a great book. Very flavorful, and it makes playing melee characters a lot more interactive than your standard "I full attack" approach by most martial characters.

But I definitely suggest playing a 1-shot with it before fully allowing it into an actual campaign.

I'll take this under advisement.



You should not use any ToB in your group, given your requirements and groupmates. Obviously, you could play something ludicrously OP in your group and simply not use your abilities, but that's pretty damned cheesy (and condescending).

I run games where a longsword and a shield are a pretty ok way to go about doing stuff, and ToB is way too strong for my games.

Edit: I do recommend you purchase ToB. As for using it, I would say no. Unless your actual goal is to largely replace fighter/barbarian and friends with the ToB dudes. For instance, in my games, no one can have more than one prestige class, and no more than three classes total. Then, I buff the core martial classes, and of course, some spells get nerfed too. The end result still results in superpowered players, but the power difference is not so ludicrous. If your group is already "dipping" into classes for abilities, then ToB should probably be an ok addition- but if your guys are like, Fighter 8... then no, don't use it.

But definitely purchase it. It's a great read, and with the exceptions of some outliers on the good and bad sides, it is reasonably balanced with itself.

we have no dippers, and I tend to discourage it.
as for prestige classes, so far, only one player has expressed interest. the Dwarf plans on taking Battlesmith all the way through. I beleive the paladin player is starting to look at PrCs as it has occured to him that the paladin may not keep up all the way (at least, not how he wants it too)

the ranger has also expressed (VERY) limited interest in PrCing out.

and I don't plan on replacing the existing melee.


Do you have Wizards in your games? Clerics? Druids? Sorcerers? Greataxe-wielding Barbarians?

wizard - no, I've explained to them how much book work that will be, they backed off.

Clerics - aye, one in both campus campaigns. one is playing a healbot, the other is playing ball. (metaphorically) the latter player is begining to grasp just how much power he has at his disposal over the group. and we've discussed at length things I'd prefer he didn't do.

Druids - also aye. she is consistently outperformed by every other party member except perhaps the recently deceased bard. I dread and eagerly await the day the player realizes just how much power is at her disposal.

sorcerers - no takers yet, though we do have an alchemist in the other campaign.

great axe wielders - well, we have a TWF ranger who wields a greataxe, and our residant barbarian has a golf-bag of weapons, one of which is a great axe.... I think.


to re emphasize the level I'm playing at.
my players are only JUST NOW (at around level 5 and a year into the game) how useful power attack is.


naturally, I've been ninja'd by now.

[Fizban]

The easiest thing would be to introduce the manuevers-as-feats for the Fighter-types.

Marital Study & Martial Stance feats allow non-ToB classes to get ToB manuevers... but not so much that they change teirs.

Seconding this. Even with your completely un-optimized group, one maneuver limited to once per fight isn't likely to break anything (as long as it's not a teleport or something). Of course, this will also probably pattern them into thinking "ToB=magic," which is just about the worst way that could go.

[Runestar]

Or start using martial adepts as npcs in your games to showcase their capabilities.

Imagine their surprise when even run of the mill mooks can manage 2 fairly devastating attacks, as well as prove more resistant to their sleep spells and attacks (in game terms, human warblade1 with steel wind, moment of perfect thought and stone bones maneuvers, plus punishing stance). Or charging minotaur for mobility (one of the few maneuvers which let you charge).:smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

Teej,

My query was directed to cfalcon, who says S&B Fighters are 'pretty ok' and that ToB would be way overpowered. Those statements made me wish to establish more parameters to the baseline presented.

If you have any of the classes I listed, ToB shouldn't overpower the game unless your houserules and/or specific players nerf the heck out of those things I listed.

[cfalcon]

Do you have Wizards in your games? Clerics? Druids? Sorcerers? Greataxe-wielding Barbarians?

Me? Yes, of course. The first four are very strong and don't need much help (and in fact, need some spells reduced in power). The last guy is only broken if you allow optional trade off stuff (like free pounce for fast movement, and extra attack for actual rage).

The guy asking for advice has reduced the possible game breaking issues of these classes in different ways.

Look, it's pretty clear: if you want the core martial guys to be viable, you have to do some tweaking. Introducing a bunch of classes that are mechanically more complex, use a spellcasting system, and overwrite them completely (unless you are allowing dipping) is simply not for everyone. It's pretty obviously not for the OP, who has defined a strongly flavor defined world with low-op parameters.

[cfalcon]

And those classes often play support roles, or are in situations where their reality-bending powers simply don't matter as much as the ability of the fighter to keep punching each round.

ToB didn't even fix the OP caster issue, it just kicked the core martial guys in the junk. What fixes broken casters is every good DM, in like '95 or something :P

[Runestar]

The easiest thing would be to introduce the manuevers-as-feats for the Fighter-types.

Marital Study & Martial Stance feats allow non-ToB classes to get ToB manuevers... but not so much that they change teirs.

On a side note, I always find it funny when people misspell martial as marital. :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

I believe its a matter of point of view; some people want to pull casters down and others want to bring melee up. Neither is objectively better, just different.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On a side note, I always find it funny when people misspell martial as marital. :smallbiggrin:

Hey now, all's fair in love and war... :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, I will third the above comment that maneuvers and stances can be taken as feats, and that this is a perfectly valid way to introduce some ToB content without going overboard (maneuvers are mechanically similar to 'encounter powers' from 4e, and stances are always on).

Does the Ranger like TWFing, but finds himself being unable to full attack as much as he likes? Fine, have him pick up, for example, Wolf Fang Strike, and once per encounter, he can swing with both as a standard action. It's worth a feat, but not overpowering. Maybe Sudden Leap so 1/encounter, he can close quickly and TWF.

Does the tank want some self-healing ability? Sword-and-board goes very well with Devoted Spirit. Since Fighters have feats coming out their ears, you can pick up Crusader's Strike for self-healing, then Martial Spirit for self-healing every time he hits something.

Or, perhaps, if you get high enough level, and he wants to keep opponents from ignoring him, Thicket of Blades.

Or, if he wants to cover his allies with his shield, the 2nd level maneuver Shield Block does just that... gives a +4 shield bonus to AC of ally adjacent to him. Sure, it's 1/encounter, but it's a Counter, which means in response to an opponent's attack on said ally. Again, well worth a feat.

Iron Guard's Glare is also a great feat to make it harder for opponents to hit his allies.

Does the Rogue want some more ability to sneak attack? Pick up Shadow Blade Technique, then Island of Blades for much easier flanking ability. Maybe pick up Sapphire Nightmare Blade for at least one guaranteed flat-footed attack. He'll also want to pick up Shadow Blade for Dex to damage.

Again, not overpowering, but definitely worth the price of a feat.

At level 6, they have IL3, which is enough for 2nd level maneuvers and stances. Show them the list, say you can pick ONE up as a feat if you want, and go from there.

[Runestar]

PCs are already feat starved as is, you still expect them to blow precious feat slots on martial study/stance? :smallconfused:

Introduce those maneuver-granting magic items might be a good start. Maybe a magic weapon could grant the use of a low level maneuver a limited number of times each day?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PCs are already feat starved as is, you still expect them to blow precious feat slots on martial study/stance? :smallconfused:

Introduce those maneuver-granting magic items might be a good start. Maybe a magic weapon could grant the use of a low level maneuver a limited number of times each day?

Perhaps you missed the part of 'sword and board FIGHTER', who can't take two steps without tripping over another feat he's wondering what to do with.

[NoldorForce]

And those classes often play support roles, or are in situations where their reality-bending powers simply don't matter as much as the ability of the fighter to keep punching each round.

ToB didn't even fix the OP caster issue, it just kicked the core martial guys in the junk. What fixes broken casters is every good DM, in like '95 or something :PFrom what I've seen you post before, your game is sufficiently houseruled that its concerns with balance are no longer aligned with those of "standard" 3.5. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but your case is something of an outlier.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually don't, I like right where we are.

and I"m a HUUUUUUGE fan of self discovery...

I'm okay with telling them about things like chain-gating because it's accompanied with the statement of "I'll stomp on it in a heartbeat" and "anything you can do, so can the bad guys"

and I explained to the only guy in the party who would actually consider chain-gating what happens if the bad guys chain gate balors.....

I want the players to grow at their own pace. as it stands, the paladin and the cleric have the greatest grasp on the system, follwed by the dwarf fighter.


That was a tongue in cheek comment and there is nothing wrong with self-discovery; but in my opinion it is never wrong to give just a little hint, perhaps a link to a handbook or a mention of how they can do research stuff like that.

But in the end it is your game and your players so you definitely know what is the best way for it.

And I second Shneekey's idea to introduce it a little by little, the novice items will be perfect I think and IIRC level 6 is a point of the game where the WBL allows to buy that item comfortably.