[3.5] You like Hummus? (aka best dips)

[Thurbane]

So Playgrounders...what 1 or 2 level dips do you like in your character builds? Either base classes or PrCs.

Some perennial favorites seems to be Paladin 2 (for Cha based builds), Fighter 2 (for feats), Barbarian 2 (Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge), Rogue 2 (Evasion) etc.

...of course, dips don't work so well for casters, unless it's a PrC dip, like Mindbender.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Cleric 1 for various devotions: Travel, Law and Knowledge come to mind. The casting-related bennies are an added plus.

[Hirax]

Warblade for a few at higher levels to get IHS and a few maneuvers. I like many of the BoED prcs, if I can get the feat requirements waived or modified (boy did they go nuts with feat pre reqs in that book). Emissary of barachiel is one of my favorite for a good guy, since in its first level you can stun evil humanoids if they fail a will save, DC = your diplomacy check. Servant of the heavens and words of creation are its pre req feats, so at least it only has 1 crap entry feat if you're a bard. Risen martyr 1 is nice too (charisma to AC), if you can pick it up when you know you won't be advancing much more (you're required to only advance that class once you have it), and it only requires nimbus of light and any other exalted feat.

[deuxhero]

Barbarian 1 for pounce.
Shadowdancer for HiPS
Anything for a Rogue 19

[TroubleBrewing]

Paladin 2 if I'm playing anything even remotely Cha-heavy.

The above three are usually my top choices, though.

Oddly, Fighter makes a rad 2 level dip for melee. 2 feats, full BAB, and an extra 3 Fort. It can make certain builds come online WAY quicker.

EDIT: Oh, Mindbender. Mindbender 1 forEVER and then never again.

EDIT PART 2: Just read the OP all the way through. I laugh at myself.

[Amphetryon]

Deepwarden 2.

[Urpriest]

Binder 1 for Hellfire warlocks, diplomancers, and potentially others.

[Greenish]

Monk 2 is pretty decent, three feats (that you don't have to qualify for!) and evasion. Feat rogue 2 only gets two feats, but much better skills, and the feat choices are more open.

[Thurbane]

Binder 1 for Hellfire warlocks, diplomancers, and potentially others.
Yeah, Binder is a great, versatile dip. I find Binder 3 (or 4) nice on any melee build - Paimon FTW.

[hex0]

Monk 2 is pretty decent, three feats (that you don't have to qualify for!) and evasion. Feat rogue 2 only gets two feats, but much better skills, and the feat choices are more open.

+1.

Also, Divine Oracle 2. Dragon Disciple 2 is nice too. Swashbuckler 3. Dragon Slayer 1 is decent. Contemplative 1.

Human Paragon 1 is good for qualifying for just about anything.

Arcane Trickster 3 for Spell Thiefs :smallwink: yes. I just went there

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feat rogue 2.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Monk 2 for good saves, three feats (IUS and two feats (usually via UA)), and invisibility once every three rounds, Fighter 2 for feats, Cleric 1 for devotions/feats/turn undead, Chameleon 2 for one of the greatest gateways to abuse I have ever seen, Paladin 2 for Cha reasons, Barbarian 1 for pounce, Factotum 1 for all skills (with able learner to only have to pay one point), Mindbender 1 for telepathy (and mindsight) and finally, Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest 1 for lvl 9 spells in 10 levels. :smallamused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Monk 2 for good saves, three feats (IUS and two feats (usually via UA)), and invisibility once every three rounds, Fighter 2 for feats, Cleric 1 for devotions/feats/turn undead, Chameleon 2 for one of the greatest gateways to abuse I have ever seen, Paladin 2 for Cha reasons, Barbarian 1 for pounce, Factotum 1 for all skills (with able learner to only have to pay one point), Mindbender 1 for telepathy (and mindsight) and finally, Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest 1 for lvl 9 spells in 10 levels. :smallamused:

Where is mindsight? I'm thinking of playing a character with a mindbender dip.

[Thurbane]

Lord of Madness.

[thompur]

Warlock 1 for rogue builds.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wow......mindsight is how Telepathy works in my group by defualt. Well except the knowing type and Int score.

[*.*.*.*]

Factotum for the skills and 'Brains over Brawn', I don't remember my last character without at least a 14 int

[Dimers]

Monk, for Tashalatora.
Psion 1 or psychic warrior 2 for bonus feats and a few psi effects per day. The burst power is handy for almost any melee build, for example. Or ardent 2 for three mantle bonuses and a few powers per day.
Warlock 2 for unlimited detect magic and two signficant constant boosts.

[Fizban]

I like Sorcerer 1 for sneaky guys. True Strike, Instant Locksmith, Spontaneous Search, Guided Shot, and Sniper's Shot are all great to have around. Yeah you can wand them, but sometimes you just need to be able to cast it yourself, and sorc 1 gives you your favorite two.

Wyrm Wizard 2 will only lose one level of casting and get you that one pesky spell you wanted for a gimmick build that you couldn't get any other way-hello Initiate spells!

[dextercorvia]

That I didn't see mentioned yet, in no particular order:

Totemist2, UrPriest1or2, Chameleon2, SublimeChord2, Paladin2, WildshapeRanger1, FistoftheForest1, and WarforgedJuggernaut2

[gomipile]

I'll second Spirit Lion Totem Barbarion, and Cleric.

[Thurbane]

The Magic domain, another nice reason to dip Cleric. Use any Cleric or Sor/Wiz wand with no UMD? Yes please. :smallsmile:

[Trinoya]

To re-iterate what others are saying: Monk 2. It's a great dip.

That said: If you have a really high int caster the kung fu specialist (genius?) feat goes really good for upping those ACs and only only need one level of monk to abuse the hell out of that (but always go two and snag that nice sweet evasion).

[gorfnab]

Arcane Trickster 3 for Spell Thiefs :smallwink: yes. I just went there
Unseen Seer 2 for Master Spellthieves - +1d6 sneak attack and Hunters Eye (PHBII) spell is very nice

Beastmaster 1 or 2 + Natural Bond feat = a nice pet

[CyMage]

That said: If you have a really high int caster the kung fu specialist (genius?) feat goes really good for upping those ACs and only only need one level of monk to abuse the hell out of that (but always go two and snag that nice sweet evasion).

Or just save your caster levels and use a spell to boost your AC. Evasion isn't as good if you have a poor reflex save either. Melee are a lot more dip friendly then casters.

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but Marshall 1 another great Cha based dip.

[Gorgondantess]

Mentioning for completeness: spellsword. The only full-bab +CL at first level that neither requires +5 or more BAB or 3rd+ level spells, to my knowledge: the ASF reduction is nice, too.

[Zaq]

Several of my Iron Chef characters have had 1 level in Ranger. 2 good saves, full BAB, 6 skill points from an above-average list, a feat that's a prereq for a lot of things, and (with CChamp in play) the ability to talk to plants and animals a few times a day? Yeah, I'll take it. Not a good all-purpose dip, but it comes up often enough. Basically, it's very helpful for qualifying for a lot of things. You really can't beat that chassis. Damn shame about the utter lack of truly useful class features (well, until you get into Wildshape Ranger and Mystic Ranger, but let's not go there).

One of the strongest one-level dips I've found is actually Druid, as long as Unearthed Arcana is in the way. There are a few (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) ACFs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) there that don't conflict with each other. One level then gets you Rage, Favored Enemy, Track, +10' Fast Movement, Monk-style +WIS to unarmored AC, a seriously nerfed feature that's still called Wild Empathy (so it counts for prereqs), and Druid spells. If you take more than a dip, it pales in comparison to an actual Druid, but it's a godly dip.

Incarnate 2 will get you 3 soulmelds, 2 essentia, and the Crown bind. You can get a lot of mileage out of 3 melds and 2 essentia, let me tell you. It drastically increases just about any character's skillset. Also, the Crown bind itself is perfectly acceptable for a few things, even if few of them are build-defining.

A level of Warlock, as has been mentioned, can fit into a hell of a lot of very different builds. Invocations are pretty sweet, honestly, and there's a lot of benefit you can get from them. What I find interesting about the Warlock dip is the sheer variety of builds that can benefit from it. Just about any flavor of Rogue (sneaky, acrobat, social) can benefit (from Darkness/Blend Into Shadow, Leaps and Bounds, and Beguiling Influence, respectively) can benefit, but really, who can't find a use for Spider Climb, or +6 Search/Spot, or +6 to certain Knowledge checks (though DFA does that one better), or darkvision and See Invisibility, or hell, even water breathing and a swim speed? Not every invocation will help every character, but there are quite a lot of them, and I find it really interesting how you could have an entire party of characters who have a single level in Warlock, and they could all take totally different invocations for totally different reasons. DFA works in much the same way, but they don't have the same breadth of options . . . and you can't sneak attack with a breath weapon, for what that's worth. That said, at-will Detect Magic and Identify is a pretty awesome combination in the right hands (including those of a Rogue . . . you'd be amazed at how much those two abilities add to your trapfinding capabilities).

I am far from the first person to mention Cleric, but I agree completely. You can get a LOT of stuff out of some well-chosen domains (and/or devotion feats). Plus, even one or two Cleric spells per day can be damned useful . . . even at CL 1, pretty much absolutely anyone can benefit from Sign or Omen of Peril.

You pretty much have to be an Incarnum-user already to benefit (much like how you have to be a spellcaster to benefit from the much-beloved Mindbender dip), but if you just so happen to be a dwarven meldshaper, Ironsoul Forgemaster 1 is awesome. You can ignore the rest of the class if you so desire (I wouldn't, because it's pretty neat, but still), but Shield Bond is amazing. The benefit of having that level of energy resistance on tap comes up much more often than you might expect.

Human Paragon is pretty solid for certain builds. I love how you can absolutely justify taking 1, 2, or all 3 levels of it. (Harder to justify 2 and not 3, but it happens.) They're all natural breakpoints.

[Godskook]

Let's see:
Conjurer 1 - Abrupt Jaunt + Fighter Feat
Monk 1(or 2)
Cloistered Cleric 1
SLT Barbarian 1
Fighter 2
Swordsage 2
Warblade 1
Crusader 1
Totemist 2

Spellsword 1
Master of Masks 1(or 2)
Chameleon 2
Master Specialist 3

[Coidzor]

The Magic domain, another nice reason to dip Cleric. Use any Cleric or Sor/Wiz wand with no UMD? Yes please. :smallsmile:

There's even a guide to dipping cleric 1. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)

[Hazzardevil]

Does anyone else think we should try and make a build that is filled with dips like the ones suggested.

[gbprime]

The requirements are steep, but a sorcerer can hardly go wrong by dipping Sanctified One of Kord. 1 level of that turns all fire damage spells cast into untyped divine energy instead.

[Zaq]

Does anyone else think we should try and make a build that is filled with dips like the ones suggested.

Kind of like (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175478&postcount=147) this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175488&postcount=148)?

[ranagrande]

Or maybe something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131394)?

[Greenish]

WarforgedJuggernaut2Do tell more.


Does anyone else think we should try and make a build that is filled with dips like the ones suggested.As pointed out above, it's been done. Many, many times.

[Zombimode]

Marshal 1 is also nice for non-casters with heavy use of charisma.

[gbprime]

Marshal 1 is also nice for non-casters with heavy use of charisma.

And an incredible choice for those pcs or npcs using a succubus progression out of savage species. A PC can expect to have a +16 bonus by the time they're ready to dip Marshall.

[dextercorvia]

Do tell more.


Warforged Juggernaut 2 makes you immune to non-lethal damage without making you immune to healing, or any of the other troubling things about not having a con score. This makes Regeneration into damage immunity. Warforged Crusader/WJ with the Trollblooded feat can pretty much walk through any melee challenge unscathed, but still benefits from the delayed damage pool.

[Greenish]

Warforged Juggernaut 2 makes you immune to non-lethal damage without making you immune to healing, or any of the other troubling things about not having a con score. This makes Regeneration into damage immunity. Warforged Crusader/WJ with the Trollblooded feat can pretty much walk through any melee challenge unscathed, but still benefits from the delayed damage pool.That's a very specific kind of cheese, though, and I still don't see why you don't take the entire PrC and be immune to things that mess you up worse than mere hp damage.

[dextercorvia]

That's a very specific kind of cheese, though, and I still don't see why you don't take the entire PrC and be immune to things that mess you up worse than mere hp damage.

It is rather like the mindbender dip -- not for everyone.

But that reminds me, Pious Templar 1 grants mettle among other things.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that there are other ways to avoid those things, but there are only a few ways to get HP damage immunity. If you keep going, you can't have that anymore.

[Greenish]

If you keep going, you can't have that anymore.Why not? :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

Why not? :smallconfused:

I forget the exact ability, but something happens at WJ3 that makes you unable to regenerate. It might be immunity to natural healing, or loss of con score.

[Greenish]

I forget the exact ability, but something happens at WJ3 that makes you unable to regenerate.Nope.

WJ 3 makes you immune to spells of healing subschool, and prevents you from benefitting from ingested buffs (such as potions and Heroes' Feast).

The PrC doesn't cause you to lose Con score at any point.

[Tvtyrant]

Samurai can be useful for picking up Iajitsu.

Sneak Attack Fighter can get you weapon finesse at level 1, and let you get 2d6 SA at level 2.

[Talya]

WildshapeRanger1

Note that at Ranger 1, you're not yet a wildshape ranger.

Wildshape Ranger doesn't get wildshape until level 5. (And has no Combat Style at 2, either.)

[Greenish]

Note that at Ranger 1, you're not yet a wildshape ranger.Wildshape Ranger gets Fast Movement at level 1.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Sneak Attack Fighter can get you weapon finesse at level 1, and let you get 2d6 SA at level 2.

You gain SA as a rogue in exchange for your bonus feats, not a d6 of SA when ever you would have gained a bonus feat (unfortunately).

[Tvtyrant]

You gain SA as a rogue in exchange for your bonus feats, not a d6 of SA when ever you would have gained a bonus feat (unfortunately).

Right, level 1 is the first one. As a Rogue you get SA at its level 1, so you get it two levels in a row.

[Dr.Epic]

Barbarian 2 (Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge)

You anger me.:smallannoyed: Out of all the low level barbarian abilities, you don't mention the most iconic to the class. The friggin' BARBARIAN RAGE!?!?!?! Shame on you. That's the only real reason to take a level or two: get the rage for the PrCs. Come on man.:smallwink:

[Zaq]

You anger me.:smallannoyed: Out of all the low level barbarian abilities, you don't mention the most iconic to the class. The friggin' BARBARIAN RAGE POUNCE!?!?!?! Shame on you. That's the only real reason to take a level or two: get the rage for the PrCs Pounce instead of that ACF that gives fast movement. Come on man.:smallwink:

Fixed that for you.

[starwoof]

And then you take a level in wildshape ranger to get your fast movement back!:smallcool:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

You anger me. Out of all the low level barbarian abilities, you don't mention the most iconic to the class. The friggin' BARBARIAN RAGE POUNCE!?!?!?! Shame on you. That's the only real reason to take a level or two: get the rage for the PrCs Pounce instead of that ACF that gives fast movement. Come on man.

Fixed that for you.

Didn't somebody post a bunch of ways to snag Pounce? I would be interested to see it.

[Hirax]

Didn't somebody post a bunch of ways to snag Pounce? I would be interested to see it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

As en editorial comment, the reason level 1 lion totem barbarian is so popular is because it's generally the best way to get it for melee builds, there are few/no drawbacks and tons of benefits, including the ability to get an extra attack from whirling frenzy.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Right, level 1 is the first one. As a Rogue you get SA at its level 1, so you get it two levels in a row.

Ah, I didn't know that you were adding Rogue 1 to that.

[MesiDoomstalker]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

As en editorial comment, the reason level 1 lion totem barbarian is so popular is because it's generally the best way to get it for melee builds, there are few/no drawbacks and tons of benefits, including the ability to get an extra attack from whirling frenzy.

Thanks! Incidentally, this is for a caster (weird I know) but I already have a Pseudo-Pounce in the way of Travel Devotion. Free movement as a swift action. Though I guess it doesn't count as a "Charge".

[tiercel]

While not as cheese-tastic as Cleric 1, a lot of non-ToB-hitter-focused builds, especially ones that look like BaseClass 5/PrC X, gain benefit from sneaking in Duskblade 1.

While you don't get the awesome spell access of a Cleric (or Druid), you're maintaining full BAB while gaining +2 Fort/Will, ability to toss around a couple of utility spells in light armor (e.g. swift expeditious retreat, true strike, stand, resist energy), some silly attack cantrips (less silly if you have precision damage), and the handy (if not massively powerful) ability to throw around detect magic and dancing lights (and some lesser things) ~4/day as a (Sp) ability.

And there are worse things than being able to use wands/scrolls of obscuring mist, resist energy, see invisibility, protection from energy and dimension door. Also, all Knowledge skills are class skills, which can be useful for PrC prereqs and/or Knowledge Devotion.

You could do worse than Duskblade 1/Barb 1/Fighter 2/Warblade-or-Crusader 1 as a BAB +5 entry into your favorite PrC (rearranging the order of the first four levels to taste as needed for your eventual build, the ToB class coming in at IL 3 and giving you 2nd-level maneuvers -- if nothing else, Diamond Mind to cover your garbage saves).

[Lord.Sorasen]

One that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is dragonfire Adept. You gain a breath attack, which may be weak, but can be combined with entangling exhalation for free entangle forever. It also gives you an invocation which can also be used at will, as well as the dragonblooded feat.

On a similar note, I believe dragon shaman 1 can grant fast healing (though only up to 1/2 hp) for free, which could serve very well in terms of out of combat healing.

Wizard/sorcerer 1 grant familiars for free, which can be pretty swell for scout/I don't know other things probably bonuses.

[Psyren]

One that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is dragonfire Adept. You gain a breath attack, which may be weak, but can be combined with entangling exhalation for free entangle forever. It also gives you an invocation which can also be used at will, as well as the dragonblooded feat.

Note that this one invocation can be Identify at-will, for free :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

Wizard/sorcerer 1 grant familiars for free, which can be pretty swell for scout/I don't know other things probably bonuses.
Anyone with UMD can get great use out of a familiar. A Pearl of Speech (MIC) is a cheap way to allow a familiar to talk normally, and meet any verbal components of UMD (like a command word).

[Wings of Peace]

Dibs on first mention of Tainted Scholar!

[Gwendol]

I second ranger 2. Especially if going archer.

Dungeoncrasher fighter 2: useful for many

Knight 3 (Bulwark of defence), 4 if you want medium armor mastery.

[dextercorvia]

Nope.

WJ 3 makes you immune to spells of healing subschool, and prevents you from benefitting from ingested buffs (such as potions and Heroes' Feast).

The PrC doesn't cause you to lose Con score at any point.

I must have misread Healing Immunity at some point in the past. In that case you are correct, it is worth all five levels and thus unsuitable for this thread.


Dibs on first mention of Tainted Scholar!

But it's hard to take just one level....

[Greenish]

I must have misread Healing Immunity at some point in the past. In that case you are correct, it is worth all five levels and thus unsuitable for this thread.Healing Immunity doesn't make you immune to healing, Magic Immunity doesn't make you immune to magic… I think we can blame WotC for that one.

[Trouvere]

Problems with your Will save, adventurer? Had your mind probed once too often? Intelligence at least 11? Then you need a dip in Psion (Seer), Psicrystal Affinity (resolved), Empty Mind, Precognition and Conceal Thoughts.

[dextercorvia]

Healing Immunity doesn't make you immune to healing, Magic Immunity doesn't make you immune to magic… I think we can blame WotC for that one.

That's one of my favority games! :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Problems with your Will save, adventurer? Had your mind probed once too often? Intelligence at least 11? Then you need a dip in Psion (Seer), Psicrystal Affinity (resolved), Empty Mind, Precognition and Conceal Thoughts.

That seems a bit too complex. Why not just UMD some kind of device to get Mindblank?

[Amphetryon]

That seems a bit too complex. Why not just UMD some kind of device to get Mindblanktake Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind) and let your Will save = your Concentration check? Seems easier and less expensive this way. :smallbiggrin:

[Trouvere]

Uh, because at, say, 4th level, you can't get a Mind Blank item, your UMD sucks and your Concentration check is +2? Dips are just dips; they're not a perfect solution for every eventuality.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Either of the Meldshapers are decent for two or three levels; Totemist is probably better (because you really want Incarnate 3), but you get access to all of their Soulmelds, you get a bonus to some or all of your Soulmelds' capacity, you get some Essentia, and Essentia Capacity progresses by Character Level and not Meldshaper Level, so you can maintain a decent use of those abilities. Open ____ Chakra, Shape Soulmeld, and the [Incarnum] feats all can help maintain a decent level of Meldshaping prowess, too.

[Gullintanni]

Seems easier and less expensive this way. :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like someone needs Steadfast Determination.



Fireball? You block with your chest! Sword? You block with your chest! Finger of Death? You block with your chest! With the right choices, you’ll even block Dominate Person with your chest!