Benefits of worshipping evil? help

[PrinceParrot]

My group wants to play an evil campaign. The paladin in the campaign seems to be lacking direction. When I tried to think of an explanation of his motivation I couldn't come up with a good reason why he would be following an evil deity.

I guess this brings me to my real point: What is the point of following an evil deity? When you die, you go to their realm and get crapped on. If you serve good you don't. Not exactly a very good motivation in the world of DnD where the soul is a real, proven to exist, "yeah, I just talked to that god 20 years ago when he was walking the planet" kind of place. Am I dumb and missed the perfect thread where the forum's wisdom spills forth aplenty?

[mootoall]

Something like six free feats, I believe, is the benefit of worshipping an Elder Evil.

[Yora]

I think one common idea is "When you do your job well, you will be allowed to skip the crap levels of Hell and will become an imp or a babau right on arrival." It's only those who serve their gods poorly who will have to suffer through centuries of being a larva or lemure. And such things only happen to other people.

[Urpriest]

I think one common idea is "When you do your job well, you will be allowed to skip the crap levels of Hell and will become an imp or a babau right on arrival." It's only those who serve their gods poorly who will have to suffer through centuries of being a larva or lemure. And such things only happen to other people.

Immediate promotion is indeed one consideration, though I doubt that very many people get to be a babau, since they're pretty high up the roster.

Another thing is that the punishments only really apply to demon and devil worshippers. Evil gods usually have fairly nice realms if you share their interests. Serving Hextor, for example, leads you to an afterlife in a magnificent fortress locked in eternal war.

[Yora]

Babau is the first form that doesn't suck. :smallbiggrin:

Mane, dretch, and rutterkin are all not fun at all, quasit might work out okay.

[BlackestOfMages]

as stated, it's only worshiping devils etc that come out with pain(though a nice potential end, I suppose) the actual evil gods have their own afterlives just like good ones.

also, don;t forgoet that in most mythos, the 'good' gods offer rewards for after you die, the evil ones offer it before:smallwink:

[flumphy]

Imagine, for a moment, that you are offered a Faustian bargain. In the short term, you gain power. Incredible power that the average man can never hope to achieve. Power is nice. Some people, perhaps even most, live for power.

In exchange, you give up your immortal soul. Now, this seems like a crappy deal at first, but hear me out. First of all, there's nothing stopping you from pulling tricks to try and get it back later on. (Hell, in some versions of the legend, this actually works!) Secondly, there's no guarantee your good deity of choice will take you anyway. Especially in Eberron, where the afterlife sucks no matter who you worship. Third, even the "good" afterlife may end up sucking. In the default D&D cosmology petitioners forget their mortal lives and eventually get absorbed into the plane. Finally, the mentality that it's better to accomplish something at some point and go down in a blaze of glory rather than spend your entire existence in mediocrity isn't hard to understand.

Can you honestly say you wouldn't even consider taking that bargain? I'm actually a fairly religious person, and even I have to admit I may not say no if it came down to it. That's the reason the Faust legend resonates so much, even in modern times. People are power-hungry, consequences be damned.

[Alleran]

First of all, there's nothing stopping you from pulling tricks to try and get it back later on. (Hell, in some versions of the legend, this actually works!)
Or scaring Death away, as Alan Moore has done. (http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp02132008.gif)

[Yora]

The point of evil in fiction is that evil people are wrong. If you have forces of good and evil, those who turn to the evil path will pretty much always fail. Sometimes they achieve their goal, but still end up with something they didn't want.

[Gnaeus]

In exchange, you give up your immortal soul. Now, this seems like a crappy deal at first, but hear me out. First of all, there's nothing stopping you from pulling tricks to try and get it back later on.

Like trying to live forever, which is reasonably effective to many D&D villains.

[Abaddon87]

I would strongly recommend you read the Feindish Codex II about the Devils. It has some great sections in it about how they subvert people and why people would worship evil. Seriously, check it out if you even enjoy the idea of running an evil game or want to have Devils in your game (good or evil).

In a nutshell, what has been stated before about people being ignorant about what actually happens when they die, and thinking they can be "good" evil-doers and bypass the whole totmepole straight to Balor is a huge reason people dont have issues with serving evil. Also, people are greedy. They want things in the "here and now" and sometimes just dont think/care about what happens after they are dead.

For your pally, why would he serve evil? One word... POWER!

[Psyren]

as stated, it's only worshiping devils etc that come out with pain(though a nice potential end, I suppose) the actual evil gods have their own afterlives just like good ones.

The evil gods can be just as much asshats, if not moreso, than the devils. From FC2 pg. 9:

"Some souls—especially those pledged to evil deities and those that fear the punishments they might suffer in their deities’ realms—jump at the opportunity to avoid their fates. In exchange for consigning themselves to the Nine Hells, such souls might be offered early promotion from lemure form, material riches for friends and family in Faerûn, or the services of devilish attacks on their still-living enemies."

And even the non-evil gods can be tough to deal with. Kelemvor, for instance, sometimes torments the False "in ways that would surprise the cruelest demon." (FRCS pg. 259)

All of which, I admit, lends credence to the OP's confusion. Perhaps this is why Sanctify the Wicked has a 100% success rate? It shows them how much of a crapshoot dying while evil (or even just non-good!) really is?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would woship an Elder Evil to get free feats :smallbiggrin:

(more) seriously now, while cliché evil people want power, and if there is anything that Evil grants is a quick way to power, Ur-priest, the free feats from elder evils, are just a few examples. And the lure of quick "easy" power is maybe enough to temp people.

[Prime32]

Then there's the guys who became evil out of motives like "destroy evil, no matter the cost to innocents". In which case, not only do they get more power to fight evil with, when they die they get to fight all the evil in hell. :smalltongue:

[drakir_nosslin]

While talking about quick rewards don't forget the sacrifice rules in the BoVD. You can get some pretty nice bonuses with the "help" of a virgin, a stylish stone altar and a knife.

[Vangor]

Villainy and worship of vile deities is not irrational. Vengeance, sorrow, madness, and similar all lead people to beings who promise vengeance, to bring sorrow, to break the bonds of reality, etc.. Others are for the immediate power regardless of consequences because people are notoriously bad with delaying pleasure. Still others have lived life in such a way the idea of existing only to scourge others is rewarding. In certain cases, the rewards are vast, beyond compare to the goodlier deities, but for extremely few, with torture for those who almost certainly fail.

But those times when worship of a being ends with unceasing torment, especially considering those types of beings are less powerful than deities who offer better rewards, personal fulfillment, etc., I agree this is absurdly poorly thought out. One major thing to consider, though, is the perspective of whomever is worshiping.

[FatR]

Well, as DnD is quite undecided about whether Evil should be eternal damnation or an alternative lifestyle, it is hard to answer the OP's question in general.

In my own games, forces of evil, as a rule, lie to their followers. Evil cults with mass following essentially are pyramid schemes, where top guys, who actually can verify what's going on in the afterlife, as opposed to taking someone else's word for it, are assured, that they will get promotions right to powerful fiends after death, if they can lure enough dupes into hell. Remember, that only a very tiny percentage of population can actually verify what's going on beyond the pearly gates, and very existence of Evil means that there is a lot of lies and deliberate misinformation being spread about this subject. Often by beings that have nothing to do with the outer planes, but just want to use religion as a tool of control, and can kick enough ass to present themselves as higher beings. And depending on the version of DnD cosmology a GM uses, there might not even be an afterlife worth giving a **** - if one's personality is erased upon death, a lot of people won't give a crap about what plane will use the remaining petitioner shell as a battery (in my own setting this is one of above-mentioned lies).

Also, some dark powers are more interested in chaos and destruction, than in establishing long-term direct control - those can be just offering more power for free to already-established villains and criminals, so they can spread misery better.

Old-fashioned offers of immediate gratification in exchange for one's soul can also work, of course, but those, in my opinion, are reserved for high-profile clients. "Deals" like "whoever wants to live should swear an oath of fealty to the Dark Lord, and show that they mean it by participating in torture of those who refused" are far more common. Hey, it's not like Evil is supposed to play fair.

[Coidzor]

Villainy and worship of vile deities is not irrational. Vengeance, sorrow, madness, and similar all lead people to beings who promise vengeance, to bring sorrow, to break the bonds of reality, etc..

So how do you explain anything approaching popular Hextor worship in a place where it's not mandatory and one can freely choose any religion.

What does he really offer to the common schmuck worshiper that they can't get from any of the other good to neutral gods available in the city? He's a god of war, so he's not even the direct patron of most people's lives anyway, and yet he's supposedly got quite a following in many cities without using coercion or trickery to get people to worship him of their own choice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So how do you explain anything approaching popular Hextor worship in a place where it's not mandatory and one can freely choose any religion.

What does he really offer to the common schmuck worshiper that they can't get from any of the other good to neutral gods available in the city? He's a god of war, so he's not even the direct patron of most people's lives anyway, and yet he's supposedly got quite a following in many cities without using coercion or trickery to get people to worship him of their own choice.

Well in any place that Hextor worshipping is common, I wouldn't say you could freely choose your religion, besides IIRC Hextor had a more benevolent aspect as god of sports (or physical activity) IIRC.

Also Hextor dominated cities tend to be really safe for a given value of it, as all wrongdoings are supposed to be punished swiftly and efficiently, so one could worship Hextor in thanks for that.

[Urpriest]

So how do you explain anything approaching popular Hextor worship in a place where it's not mandatory and one can freely choose any religion.

What does he really offer to the common schmuck worshiper that they can't get from any of the other good to neutral gods available in the city? He's a god of war, so he's not even the direct patron of most people's lives anyway, and yet he's supposedly got quite a following in many cities without using coercion or trickery to get people to worship him of their own choice.

My understanding, it's because he's got an excellent Neighborhood Watch.

[Hazzardevil]

Well in any place that Hextor worshipping is common, I wouldn't say you could freely choose your religion, besides IIRC Hextor had a more benevolent aspect as god of sports (or physical activity) IIRC.

Also Hextor dominated cities tend to be really safe for a given value of it, as all wrongdoings are supposed to be punished swiftly and efficiently, so one could worship Hextor in thanks for that.

I think as far as evil Deity's go, Hextor is one of few who tries to make sure his follower's are treated well in life, I don't know what happens in the afterlife of dnd much aside from what happens in thr Abyss and Nine Hells, in the long term, being in the 9 hells isn't that bad.

[PirateLizard]

In most worlds, including DnD, the thing the denziens of the lower planes want most is influence...any influence at all, over the mortal realm. Their goal is to seduce people in so they have a means to enact their nefarious plans in the material plane.

Characters that turn to evil are either (and this is heavy archetyping mind you) a. aware of this, and willing to charge said entity for their services, b. insane zealots who share their gods vision, or c. total buffoons, seduced by something they never really understood and now the mindless minion of something far more powerful and intelligent than they.

Once you figure out what kind of evil you are, the DM can determine your rewards accordingly, and you can flesh out the finer details of just what it is you're looking for or just how crazy/stupid you are. :smallcool:

[magwaaf]

you are being to vague. when playing an evil game at least one person should have some sort of direction on where they want the evil to go. my last evil campaign was amazing. i was a bugbear barb9/tempest5 when we finally got beaten. we took out candlekeep after our leader had a massive prayer to his god vecna... and by prayer i mean sacrificed 270 people including torm paladins in a torm temple to vecna... lol. the dm was impressed enough that he thought of it and then he rolled well enough that an emmisary appeared and told us not to worry about candlekeep's vaunted magical defenses. we were goin there to help our leader learn more magic so we could go take out thay because our leader was thrown out years ago or sumthin like that... who cares, it'd have been fun


to those of you who do not know, candlekeep is the center for all knowledge in all of faerun and its magical defenses are allgood aligned and impenetrable by any normal means, inside the keep and its grounds, you can't even think bad thoughts, not that you aren't allowed to but that the magic int here is that strong and unless you do something about the entire defense system before you get in... so vecna handled that for us...

[magwaaf]

you are being to vague. when playing an evil game at least one person should have some sort of direction on where they want the evil to go. my last evil campaign was amazing. i was a bugbear barb9/tempest5 when we finally got beaten. we took out candlekeep after our leader had a massive prayer to his god vecna... and by prayer i mean sacrificed 270 people including torm paladins in a torm temple to vecna... lol. the dm was impressed enough that he thought of it and then he rolled well enough that an emmisary appeared and told us not to worry about candlekeep's vaunted magical defenses. we were goin there to help our leader learn more magic so we could go take out thay because our leader was thrown out years ago or sumthin like that... who cares, it'd have been fun


to those of you who do not know, candlekeep is the center for all knowledge in all of faerun and its magical defenses are allgood aligned and impenetrable by any normal means, inside the keep and its grounds, you can't even think bad thoughts, not that you aren't allowed to but that the magic int here is that strong and unless you do something about the entire defense system before you get in... so vecna handled that for us...

[Psyren]

in the long term, being in the 9 hells isn't that bad.

lolwut

By the time you get through all the soul-destroying torture and begin to climb the ladder, everything that was "you" has been obliterated, and so much time has passed that it's unlikely any of the things you sacrificed your soul to achieve are still relevant. Even if they are, having become a Devil you're as likely to screw over the family/friends/village/[insert other motivation] that you sacrificed your soul to protect/avenge in the first place.

In D&D terms, you basically become an NPC - worse; a monster, an encounter - with your previous character's life as its very distant and barely-remembered backstory.

[flumphy]

So how do you explain anything approaching popular Hextor worship in a place where it's not mandatory and one can freely choose any religion.

What does he really offer to the common schmuck worshiper that they can't get from any of the other good to neutral gods available in the city? He's a god of war, so he's not even the direct patron of most people's lives anyway, and yet he's supposedly got quite a following in many cities without using coercion or trickery to get people to worship him of their own choice.

Along with what others have mentioned (coercion, decent treatment of followers during life, etc.) you also have to consider the fact that religion is not an entirely logical thing.

Just as people in real life don't choose their religion based on the kind of afterlife they teach--consider that the world's largest religion (mostly) believes in the existence of hell!--it's unlikely that characters in D&D are mainly shopping for a nice plane of existence in the hereafter. If that's all they're in it for, then I would argue that they aren't devoted enough to be considered followers.

Different concepts resonate with different people for a variety of emotional reasons, and that is a large part of what defines their faith. For some, these concepts are things like discord and war.

[PrinceParrot]

lolwut

By the time you get through all the soul-destroying torture and begin to climb the ladder, everything that was "you" has been obliterated, and so much time has passed that it's unlikely any of the things you sacrificed your soul to achieve are still relevant.....In D&D terms, you basically become an NPC - worse; a monster, an encounter - with your previous character's life as its very distant and barely-remembered backstory.

Wow thanks everyone for the awesome response!

This is what I was getting at. When you are trying to convert people to your religion you kinda gotta sell them something. Torture and being reborn as a maggot with a head isn't that enticing even if it does mean that your streets are safe or you totally murdered the heck out of that village. Just seems like Deities like Cyric or Bane need to work on their incentive schedules.

I can totally see people buying into power now, forget the consequences; except that if that were the case with most people I wouldn't expect a lot of people with high wisdom scores worshiping evil. right?

At least followers of Hextor get a cool eternal battlefield. Kinda sounds like you are doomed to an eternal paintball tournament. Sounds sweet.

[FatR]

Wow thanks everyone for the awesome response!

This is what I was getting at. When you are trying to convert people to your religion you kinda gotta sell them something. Torture and being reborn as a maggot with a head isn't that enticing even if it does mean that your streets are safe or you totally murdered the heck out of that village. Just seems like Deities like Cyric or Bane need to work on their incentive schedules.
Again, why should they tell the truth? They are evil. A few evil deities might actually believe that their cruel methods are actually necessary to improve lives of their followers, but most (including Cyric and Bane) view mortals as fuel for their ambition at best. They are likely to teach that those of their followers who please them will get high ranks in their afterlife domain (heck, this isnt' even completely untrue, you just have to be not simply devout, but ridiculously powerful to qualify for such treatment), and if they are on top of the totem pole or close, they also most likely proclaim that one day they will run both the material plane and the afterlife, and then their faithful will be ones holding whips in either world.

Note, that people making statements about afterlife won't necessarily be believed just because they have actual superpowers in DnDland, and their statements happen to be true. First, servants of evil stating otherwise will have the same superpowers. Second, magic is just incredibly common in general, so ability to invoke it won't automatically make you a final spiritual authority.

[Mafic]

also, don;t forgoet that in most mythos, the 'good' gods offer rewards for after you die, the evil ones offer it before:smallwink:

This. Many people would take the immediate "Rule the lands for 40 years" and indulge in anything you want rather than be good and you might be rewarded when you die.

[OracleofWuffing]

Don't forget that orphanages burn several times longer and brighter than a sunrod. :smalltongue:

[Lord Vukodlak]

Let me tell you about a cleric I played, Christof was lawful evil and worshipped the god of tyranny Hiraxis Blackhand. Now why did he do so? His homeland is plagued by chaos and disorder. (and a few rifts to the lower planes allowing the blood war to spill over). One of the few safe havens left in that country is great city state controlled by his church. He is devout in his belief that only through Tyranny can order and security be brought to the land.

When I designed the deity Hiraxis Blackhand I sought not only an evil god that villains would worship and follow but something to capture non-evil common folk. First and formost he teaches the world is filled with disorder, chaos, destruction of anarchy. Only tyranny has the might to provide safety and security to the world. Many people will surrender there freedom for safety and security. So a strict hierarchy of authority is necessary for the benefit of all. By offering safety and security inexchange for there obedience they can gather followers among the common folk.

The Church also teaches how a proper tyrant should rule. Such as the rule, "Your people must fear you, but more importantly they must fear going without you more." Because the church will readily support lawful evil governments. Lawful Evil rulers are likely to support the church in return. Even a lawful neutral leadership may support the church to a point because the dogma preaches feudality. The gain influence over the people by promsing them every courtesy(except freedom), and get support from governments by helping to keep the people in line.

For those in the church the rewards are more obvious, your part of this mechanism.of puppetering. Or nobility yourself if the church gains a Theocracy control over a region.

The church does not teach evil as a goal but as a means to and end. They'll gain worshipers among lawful evil fighters and conquerers looking to build there own kingdom. The warlord gets divine sanction and support and in return the church gets a position of power in the newly conquered territory. Within the church is a strict military hiarchy that appeals to certain races such as hobgoblins.

Additionally the church does not perform human sacrifices, that scares the commonfolk to much. They perform lawful public execution of betrayers of the law. Filled with ceremony, food and drink. Or they show up at a public execution with food and drink then preach dogma about betrayers of the law being punished.

Evil as a goal is a poor selling point, but as a means to an end it works wonderfully.

[LibraryOgre]

I guess this brings me to my real point: What is the point of following an evil deity? When you die, you go to their realm and get crapped on. If you serve good you don't. Not exactly a very good motivation in the world of DnD where the soul is a real, proven to exist, "yeah, I just talked to that god 20 years ago when he was walking the planet" kind of place. Am I dumb and missed the perfect thread where the forum's wisdom spills forth aplenty?

The difficulty comes from thinking that you're going to get crapped on when you die. Going to the plane of your alignment (or sincerely held religious belief) is going to a place where the world works the way it's supposed to. If you're chaotic and evil, you're not punished by being sent to the Abyss... you got to the Abyss because that's where the world makes sense, where strength and guile make you correct, and **** the little people unless they can give you something. Viewing anyone's afterlife destination as a punishment, in the Great Wheel cosmology, is erroneous (unless, of course, you're a priest of Loviatar, in which case, you're looking for punishment).

If you're following the God of Tyrrany (Hextor, Bane, whatever), you're not aiming to be a low-class slave at death... you are enlisting in his immortal army, with your service in life gaining you a promotion at death. You're not just a peon scrub... you're a lieutenant or captain in his dread legion.

[Mando Knight]

And even the non-evil gods can be tough to deal with. Kelemvor, for instance, sometimes torments the False "in ways that would surprise the cruelest demon." (FRCS pg. 259)

Considering what he does with the Faithless, I'm not surprised.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you're following the God of Tyrrany (Hextor, Bane, whatever), you're not aiming to be a low-class slave at death... you are enlisting in his immortal army, with your service in life gaining you a promotion at death. You're not just a peon scrub... you're a lieutenant or captain in his dread legion.
I think you have something here.

[Coidzor]

The difficulty comes from thinking that you're going to get crapped on when you die. Going to the plane of your alignment (or sincerely held religious belief) is going to a place where the world works the way it's supposed to. If you're chaotic and evil, you're not punished by being sent to the Abyss... you got to the Abyss because that's where the world makes sense, where strength and guile make you correct, and **** the little people unless they can give you something. Viewing anyone's afterlife destination as a punishment, in the Great Wheel cosmology, is erroneous (unless, of course, you're a priest of Loviatar, in which case, you're looking for punishment).

:smallconfused: Regardless of your strength in life you're a miserable worm that gets existentially raped by demons into being unmade and the results of that are then made into a demon or tool of demons. So, yes, actually dying and going to the Abyss is a punishment for those who aren't smart enough to use the power they could accrue in life to actually retain one's personhood through the transition into demon. Where even a level 30 sorcerer is as worthless as the level 1 commoner village X who was secretly a bloodthirsty psychopath, well, that certainly doesn't make sense in the context you were giving.

Being a petitioner is a horrible, horrible fate in and of itself, you forget every bit and piece of history and personality that made one's personhood and are the mind-raped plaything of whatever powerful entity happens to be in the neighbourhood or your patron deity, depending. So if you're a good little servant you get a theoretically nice entity with absolute control over the mindraped former shell that was once you.

So getting crapped on when you die is kinda RAW in all settings I've looked into from Dark Sun to Eberron to Greyhawk to Planescape to the Forgotten Realms.

[Weezer]

Let me tell you about a cleric I played, Christof was lawful evil and worshipped the god of tyranny Hiraxis Blackhand. Now why did he do so? His homeland is plagued by chaos and disorder. (and a few rifts to the lower planes allowing the blood war to spill over). One of the few safe havens left in that country is great city state controlled by his church. He is devout in his belief that only through Tyranny can order and security be brought to the land.

When I designed the deity Hiraxis Blackhand I sought not only an evil god that villains would worship and follow but something to capture non-evil common folk. First and formost he teaches the world is filled with disorder, chaos, destruction of anarchy. Only tyranny has the might to provide safety and security to the world. Many people will surrender there freedom for safety and security. So a strict hierarchy of authority is necessary for the benefit of all. By offering safety and security inexchange for there obedience they can gather followers among the common folk.

The Church also teaches how a proper tyrant should rule. Such as the rule, "Your people must fear you, but more importantly they must fear going without you more." Because the church will readily support lawful evil governments. Lawful Evil rulers are likely to support the church in return. Even a lawful neutral leadership may support the church to a point because the dogma preaches feudality. The gain influence over the people by promsing them every courtesy(except freedom), and get support from governments by helping to keep the people in line.

For those in the church the rewards are more obvious, your part of this mechanism.of puppetering. Or nobility yourself if the church gains a Theocracy control over a region.

The church does not teach evil as a goal but as a means to and end. They'll gain worshipers among lawful evil fighters and conquerers looking to build there own kingdom. The warlord gets divine sanction and support and in return the church gets a position of power in the newly conquered territory. Within the church is a strict military hiarchy that appeals to certain races such as hobgoblins.

Additionally the church does not perform human sacrifices, that scares the commonfolk to much. They perform lawful public execution of betrayers of the law. Filled with ceremony, food and drink. Or they show up at a public execution with food and drink then preach dogma about betrayers of the law being punished.

Evil as a goal is a poor selling point, but as a means to an end it works wonderfully.

Very interesting, sounds a bit like Hobbes with some extra harshness thrown in.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Very interesting, sounds a bit like Hobbes with some extra harshness thrown in.

Do you mean like Thomas Hobbes?

[Weezer]

Do you mean like Thomas Hobbes?


Yup. The whole thing about an absolute ruler being the only way to prevent chaos, anarchy and war is very Hobbes like.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yup. The whole thing about an absolute ruler being the only way to prevent chaos, anarchy and war is very Hobbes like.

Funny because Hobbes did some of early translation of The Odyssey into english. And Christof has an Odyssey style ending.

At the end of the campaign Christof was in he returned to his home after being missing for five years.(much shorter then Odysseus). He learns his wife has nine suitors trying to court her. There used to be more but she killed three or four already. To which he responded "Thats my lover." Now when he talked with the suitors he gave them an ultimatium flee this place or die. Then he revealed his identity. And flee they did unfortunately(for them) this chaotic evil party member thought I was lying and blocked the exit with a wall of force before proceeding to slaughter them.

Christof only let them die because he was just sick of restraining the CE PC.