Help with gish gestalt build.

[Gray Mage]

Soon I'll be participating in a gestalt game with a gish, and since I have no experience with neither I figured the playground could help me out a bit.

The game will begin at level 6 and I'd prefer an arcane gish over a divine one. What would be some good PrCs and equipment? No ToB.

[Urpriest]

In gestalt you really don't need gish PrCs, and in fact they probably should be banned along with Theurge-types anyway.

Something like Wizard 6//Crusader 6 would make a fine gish. If you expect the game to go long enough, put some Incantatrix on the Wizard side. At the very least the metamagic will be good for buffs (Extend+Persist).

Edit: Hadn't realized the no-ToB. In that case, you'll probably want a bunch of different melee classes depending on what you want out of the build.

[Icestorm245]

In gestalt you really don't need gish PrCs, and in fact they probably should be banned along with Theurge-types anyway.

Something like Wizard 6//Crusader 6 would make a fine gish. If you expect the game to go long enough, put some Incantatrix on the Wizard side. At the very least the metamagic will be good for buffs (Extend+Persist).

Edit: Hadn't realized the no-ToB. In that case, you'll probably want a bunch of different melee classes depending on what you want out of the build.

I believe he said no ToB.

[Metahuman1]

Duskblade 6 // Factotum 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 4.

Us any given PrC that gives you more spells known too add things like Shivering touch, touch of idiocy, and Caress of Midnight too your Duskblade casting.

Take able learner feat at lvl one and now all skills are gonna be class skills. This opens up options like Knowledge devotion for extra too hit and damage. Also, invest in Versitial spell caster, could come in handy.

When you get cloistered cleric, you get Knowledge and Travel devotion. Grab a third Devotion feat or a Domain that gives you a nifty feat as it's power, which ever.

ranger gives you TWF combat style. You now run up, channel attack too damage your stats of choice. This is good at start of game and is gonna be awesome at lvl 13 when full attack channel comes online.

Maybe use Gnome quick razors and Iaijutsu focus for extra damage while your at it.

[Urpriest]

Thinking a little harder, you could actually do alright gestalting Duskblade and Wizard. While Duskblade is already a gish, it doesn't get many buffs or any real versatility. Plus, most of the spell channeling abilities don't specify Duskblade spells.

[Krazzman]

For pure arcane gishing: take said Duskblade/Wizard (melee dmg output) combination or Beguiler/Wizard (illusion gishing) or Bard/Wizard (Skillmonkey Gish).

[mrcarter11]

2 things. First Duskblade automatically gets all knowledge skills as class skills. Secondly, can you channel through 2 weapons past level 13? I tried it once, and the DM said only my primary weapon could channel.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Duskblade 20// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 7
Use Cooperative Metamagic and/or Metamagic Effect to Persist your buffs, get an item that grants a Competence bonus to Spellcraft and always take ten on the check. Get/make a custom item that grants a Competence bonus to Spellcraft, it should cost bonus squared x 100 gp, and it can go up to +30 pre-epic. Be good aligned for access to Sanctified spells for (Greater) Luminous Armor, and get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage sacrifice when the spell ends.

You can use Martial Wizard to get Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will, and Duskblade gives you Combat Casting so all your prerequisites are met. You can get Arcane Strike at 6th level, which you should be spending Duskblade spell slots on. Your 1st and 3rd level feats should be Extend Spell and probably Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm). Go specialist Transmuter with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited, and lose Necromancy to Incantatrix. Get the Immediate Magic ACF in PH2, the Transmuter version is one of the better ones.

Use an Outsider race for Alter Self and Polymorph forms, preferably a +0 LA Tiefling or Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for which you can delay spending a level on the +1 LA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) and other racial benefits until level nine thousand. An Elf race (Snow Elf in Frostburn is the best) with the Otherworldly feat is another way to get the Outsider creature type without a level adjustment. At 9th level get Minor Shapeshift. At 15th or 18th level get Arcane Disciple for the Destiny domain so you can have Persistent Choose Destiny.


A completely different option would be something like Psion 20// Fighter 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5, which would get tons of power points but end up a bit MAD. I'd make the character a Dwarf and use heavy armor with the feat Deflective Armor (RoS), you can get Heavy Armor Optimization at Fighter 4 and Deflective Armor at Psion 5. Get Psicrystal Affinity and use Share Pain on it every day, and use Vigor shared with it for a nice HP cushion, and don't forget it has Hardness 8. Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) (d20 modern) is highly recommended if available. Definitely get Practiced Manifester for War Mind, so you'll have a manifester level one lower than your character level in it for augmenting and bonus power points for Wis. Get Schism, Control Body, and Solicit Psicrystal (you'll need Expanded Knowledge at least once, twice if you're not a Telepath or Kineticist) for action economy abuse:

1st round: Manifest Schism.
2nd round: Manifest Control Body targeting yourself, manifest Solicit Psicrystal to give concentration to the psicrystal, Schism manifests a buff (Vigor) or an offensive power (Ego Whip).
3rd round+: Psicrystal causes your body to full attack, occupying your physical actions, using the manifester's (your) BAB and Int bonus for the attacks. You manifest a buff or offensive power, possibly use Psionic Meditation to regain psionic focus, possibly manifest a swift/quickened power, occupying your mental actions. Your Schism manifests a buff or offensive power, occupying its mental actions.

[Aevio]

2 things. First Duskblade automatically gets all knowledge skills as class skills. Secondly, can you channel through 2 weapons past level 13? I tried it once, and the DM said only my primary weapon could channel.

Why would you want to? You're served better by using a 2hd reach weapon that you can Power Attack with.

As far as builds go, I'd probably go something like:

Fighter 2/Duskblade 3/Spellsword 1//Abrupt Jaunt Wizard 6

One of the big problems with Gestalt characters is they usually end up feat starved, so taking a couple levels of fighter not only starts you at full BAB, but also gives you a couple extra combat feats that you can use to pick up Power Attack and whatever else you feel is necessary. This gives you the room in your build to pick up some good metamagic feats like Quicken Spell.

Duskblade 3 gives you Arcane Channeling, then jumping straight into Spellsword (Complete Warrior) allows you to continue progressing your Duskblade spellcasting while picking up fantastic extras like ignoring spell failure % (allowing you to wear heavier armor without sacrificing your Wizard spells), and more weapon spell channeling. This is in addition to maintaining full BAB and a good Fort save.

With the Abrupt Jaunt ACF on your wizard side, and Dimension Hop from your spell lists, there should pretty much be no reason to not repeatedly get full attacks during combat.

[Urpriest]

2 things. First Duskblade automatically gets all knowledge skills as class skills. Secondly, can you channel through 2 weapons past level 13? I tried it once, and the DM said only my primary weapon could channel.

Reading the 13th level ability, it explicitly says the spell hits every target you hit with a melee attack that round. It might even work on opportunity attacks, and it certainly works with TWF.

[Aevio]

Reading the 13th level ability, it explicitly says the spell hits every target you hit with a melee attack that round. It might even work on opportunity attacks, and it certainly works with TWF.

Though the real question is whether or not it triggers on multiple hits against the same enemy in one turn. I'd rule it does, but many people say it doesn't, due to how it's worded.

[Waker]

Well, how about Hexblade 3/Duskblade 3//Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 1.
You'd get access to to the Hexblades Arcane Resistance and Mettle and the Duskblades Arcane Channeling, while on the opposite you'd get the wizards spellcasting.
Or if you want to be weird you could do something like Warlock 6/Spellthief 6. Being a guy who can become invisible at will is very nice for sneak attacking to steal some spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, for Gestalt, your options are quite broad. For the most part, assuming you only get one PrC at a time, I'd do one of the following:


Factotum X//Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5, throwing more levels of wizard onto your factotum side whenever Swiftblade doesn't advance casting.

Dungeoncrashing Fighter 6/Spellthief (or Rogue) X/Wizard levels as needed for full-casting//Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 10

[Aevio]

Or if you want to be weird you could do something like Warlock 6/Spellthief 6. Being a guy who can become invisible at will is very nice for sneak attacking to steal some spells.

Personally, I'd be more apt to go Warlock//Rogue, or Warlock//Scout, so that you get extra precision damage on your eldritch blasts.

Or hell, Warlock16/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3//Scout 3/Rogue 17 with the Swift Ambusher feat from Complete Scoundrel and the Quicken SLA feat.

You'll end up with Eldritch Blasts that deal 27d6 on your best shots (Quicken SLA gives you 2 shots in one round), and 18d6 when you don't have your Sneak Attack bonus.

In addition, you have a massive number of skill points (8 or 6 per level at every level), nearly the entire skill list as class skills, plus all the Invocation and UMD shenanigans that Warlocks are typically known for.

[Godskook]

In gestalt you really don't need gish PrCs, and in fact they probably should be banned along with Theurge-types anyway.

Honestly, I never understood banning prestige classes that didn't hybridize 2 tier 2 or 1 classes, and even then, unless you allow gestalt-based shenanigans(like qualifying for MT at ECL 3 with Cleric 3//Wizard 3), its not that bad.

Simply saying that 'quadratic classes' must stay on one side of the gestalt removes 90% of abuses that I'd actually be worried about, although things like taking Sorcerer levels to obviate the caster level loss of, say, Swiftblade isn't that bad.

(Also, note that while most prestige classes are 'hybrid', the most powerful ones are almost always not, making the rule "no hybrids" rather dumb, as it penalizes the middle of the bell curve, rather than the high-end.)

[DeAnno]

Considering the lethality of a challenging gestalt game, he might want to instead focus on the more defensive, sneaky Cha/Dex-gish option.

Sorc 6/Hexblade 3/Rogue+1/Sorc 10 || Pally 2/Battledancer 1/Marshal 1/Rogue 1/Daggerspell Mage 5/Suel Arcanamach 10

That's just a quick guess at a base, where you pick up multiple Cha bonuses to saves, a bonus to AC, Mettle and Evasion, lots of Base Saves/BaB, and all the daggercasting goodness for gishing. Some Suel Arcanamach is for extra volume of spells to burn with Arcane Strike (and more slots for Wraithstrike), but you could do a lot of different things with those last 10 levels.

[Urpriest]

Honestly, I never understood banning prestige classes that didn't hybridize 2 tier 2 or 1 classes, and even then, unless you allow gestalt-based shenanigans(like qualifying for MT at ECL 3 with Cleric 3//Wizard 3), its not that bad.

Simply saying that 'quadratic classes' must stay on one side of the gestalt removes 90% of abuses that I'd actually be worried about, although things like taking Sorcerer levels to obviate the caster level loss of, say, Swiftblade isn't that bad.

(Also, note that while most prestige classes are 'hybrid', the most powerful ones are almost always not, making the rule "no hybrids" rather dumb, as it penalizes the middle of the bell curve, rather than the high-end.)

It's not about abuse, though. It's about the point of gestalt. The whole idea is to play a hybrid character via gestalting non-hybrid classes. That's the intent of the system. It's meant to replace other sorts of hybrid characters.

[Aevio]

Honestly, I never understood banning prestige classes that didn't hybridize 2 tier 2 or 1 classes, and even then, unless you allow gestalt-based shenanigans(like qualifying for MT at ECL 3 with Cleric 3//Wizard 3), its not that bad.

Simply saying that 'quadratic classes' must stay on one side of the gestalt removes 90% of abuses that I'd actually be worried about, although things like taking Sorcerer levels to obviate the caster level loss of, say, Swiftblade isn't that bad.

(Also, note that while most prestige classes are 'hybrid', the most powerful ones are almost always not, making the rule "no hybrids" rather dumb, as it penalizes the middle of the bell curve, rather than the high-end.)

I could be wrong, but I think the issue comes in when dual progression PrCs free up a player to create a character that's pretty much good at everything. I mean, when you do when you go Wizard//Druid, then pick up Arcane Hierophant? You're going to dip into Psion, or Prestige Bard... you end up with a character that has full Arcane/Divine spellcasting, plus room to pick up more.

[hex0]

Duskblade 3/Wizard 3
Swashbuckler 2/Wizard 2
Abjurant Champion 1/Swashbuckler 1

[Godskook]

It's not about abuse, though. It's about the point of gestalt. The whole idea is to play a hybrid character via gestalting non-hybrid classes. That's the intent of the system. It's meant to replace other sorts of hybrid characters.

See, we've got a interesting triangle going on here, as such:
You: Think hybrids should be banned cause it goes against the point
RAW: Thinks hybrids should be banned cause they're overpowered(It actually says this is the reason they should not be allowed)
I: Think hybrids should be allowed cause they're part of the point and not overpowered.

The way I see it, Gestalt is about having MOAR options. Hybrids are notably capable at doing this, but lack the potency of the non-hybrids, even in a Gestalt setting. Seems like a perfect time to break them out and start playing them. I mean, playing an Arcane Hierophant that doesn't suck in the level 4-8 range is a fantastic idea, even if he'll wind up being a bit more powerful at level 20(when a non-abusive build would get 9ths) than other casters, and that's about the most 'powerful' hybrid combination you could get your hands on.


I could be wrong, but I think the issue comes in when dual progression PrCs free up a player to create a character that's pretty much good at everything. I mean, when you do when you go Wizard//Druid, then pick up Arcane Hierophant? You're going to dip into Psion, or Prestige Bard... you end up with a character that has full Arcane/Divine spellcasting, plus room to pick up more.

See, I'm admitting that dual-casting hybrids are a bit of a problem in gestalt, but the main point Ur and I are discussing isn't them. Its the caster/mundane hybrids, like Arcane Trickster, Spellsword, and Swiftblade that are the primary topics.

[Curious]

If PF is allowed, Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) 6 makes a great dip for any gish. It nets you 2nd level Int based prepared casting, medium BAB, d8 hit die and most importantly, Spell Combat. You only go to level 6 to get Broad Study, which allows you to use Spell Combat (make a full attack and cast a standard action spell) with spells from any other class.

[ranagrande]

I always thought the best way to handle it was to stipulate that all requirements for a PrC be met on the side you take it.

So then someone could be a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 // Something else 6 if they really wanted to.

That should work well for any of the hybrid classes.

[DeAnno]

A lot of hybridesque classes have gishy class features you can't get anywhere else, and often a player will be going into them in large part because of the features, and not the duality. For example Duskblade is a gish in a can: if you're going to ban gish PRCs, why not ban Duskblades?

[Aevio]

See, I'm admitting that dual-casting hybrids are a bit of a problem in gestalt, but the main point Ur and I are discussing isn't them. Its the caster/mundane hybrids, like Arcane Trickster, Spellsword, and Swiftblade that are the primary topics.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that. Some of those gishy classes are somewhat underpowered and don't see a whole lot of play, but become viable in gestalt games.

[hex0]

Speaking of Hybrids, here is a fun fact. Arcane Trickster/Spellthief = steal spells for free.

[Aevio]

A lot of hybridesque classes have gishy class features you can't get anywhere else, and often a player will be going into them in large part because of the features, and not the duality. For example Duskblade is a gish in a can: if you're going to ban gish PRCs, why not ban Duskblades?

Yeah that's another thing, Duskblade was really the only base gish class that got it right, and it's OK for gestalt, so I don't see a reason why others should be eliminated.

Hell, right now I'm playing a Favored Soul//Duskblade gestalt.

[hex0]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that. Some of those gishy classes are somewhat underpowered and don't see a whole lot of play, but become viable in gestalt games.

Even Dragon Disciple looks better in Gestalt, too.

[DeAnno]

Even Dragon Disciple looks better in Gestalt, too.

I always look at it and see the 7/10 BaB and just shake my head in disgust. It's not the hugest deal but seriously, that's just egregious for something that implies caster entry and barely advances casting at all.

[Aevio]

I always look at it and see the 7/10 BaB and just shake my head in disgust. It's not the hugest deal but seriously, that's just egregious for something that implies caster entry and barely advances casting at all.

It's not bad for a core-only melee build, especially if you only go in 4 or 8 levels.

Barbarian 12/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Dragon Disciple 4

Gives you 4 Rage/Day, Greater Rage, the standard fighter dip bonuses, Inspire Courage, and some first level spells to play with, +2 Natural Armor, and Claws/Bite to add to your Full Attack.

In addition, your total BAB comes out to 18/13/8/3, with +4 STR from DD making up for the lost BAB. Well, that's assuming non-gestalt. With gestalt, you could pull out something like...

Duskblade/Spellblade//Warblade/Dragon Disciple

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Archivist 20// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 5, use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist nearly every buff in the game.

[hex0]

I always look at it and see the 7/10 BaB and just shake my head in disgust. It's not the hugest deal but seriously, that's just egregious for something that implies caster entry and barely advances casting at all.

But if you are taking something that advances casting (or near full casting) and has full BAB on the other side of gestalt then the 7/10 BAB isn't an issue

Duskblade (or Hexblade or Swashbuckler) 3/Wizard 3
Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2/Wizard 2
Dragon Disciple 5/Abjurant Champion 5 and/or Swiftblade 5
Dragon Disciple 5/Swiftblade 5 and/or Abjurant Champion 5
Swiftblade 5/Eldritch Knight 5

Full BAB and 20th wizard casting. Good saves and HP.

[Grendus]

How about something like Ninja 5/Chameleon 1//Duskblade 5/Unseen Seer 1. You get sneak attack and sudden strike, the ability to channel spells through melee attacks, sudden quicken 1/day, wis to AC, poison use, invisibility as a swift action... lots of good stuff. If your DM won't let you progress two PrC's at once (UA says they shouldn't, but Gestalt is really a house rule so your situation may vary), you can either stay duskblade or switch to a different base class to pick up some more class features (Fighter always goes down well for the bonus feats, or rogue for sneak attack, etc).

Alternatively, Duskblade 6/Warlock 6 is always fun. Make all your attacks as touch attacks for 3d6 damage (iteratives are nasty when they're touch attacks), you can channel duskblade spells, you get warlock invocations and duskblade utility spells, you're pretty well set as a gish. Duskblade gives you a generalized bonus to CL checks to overcome SR which obviates one of Warlock's glaring weaknesses, and warlock invocations give you a lot of very powerful at will abilities like flight and a powerful ranged attack that obviates one of the duskblade's weaknesses. It gestalts fairly well.

[hex0]

Only one prc at a time:

Duskblade (or Hexblade or Swashbuckler) 3/Wizard 3
Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2/Wizard 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Wizard 10
Abjurant Champion 5/(whatever base class 5)

BAB 17/Full Wizard casting

or Duskblade time:

Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3
Duskblade 2/Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Duskblade 10
Half-dragon Paragon or whatever 3/Duskblade 3
Duskblade 2/whatever 2

Full bab, full duskblade

[Aevio]

Only one prc at a time:

Duskblade (or Hexblade or Swashbuckler) 3/Wizard 3
Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2/Wizard 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Wizard 10
Abjurant Champion 5/(whatever base class 5)

BAB 17/Full Wizard casting

or Duskblade time:

Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3
Duskblade 2/Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Duskblade 10
Half-dragon Paragon or whatever 3/Duskblade 3
Duskblade 2/whatever 2

Full bab, full duskblade

>.> Since Duskblade already has full BAB, it's not really that impressive. And going 10 levels in DD means that you can no longer be target of humanoid-only spells, like Enlarge Person.

[Grendus]

Only one prc at a time:

Duskblade (or Hexblade or Swashbuckler) 3/Wizard 3
Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2/Wizard 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Wizard 10
Abjurant Champion 5/(whatever base class 5)

BAB 17/Full Wizard casting


You seem a bit obsessed with Dragon Disciple. It's a terrible PrC, don't bother. Honestly, by that point you already have enough spells to cast a relevant spell every round and still not run out. If you're going to go Dragon disciple, at least go X 10/Dragon Disciple 10 so you can get the bonus spells as 9th level spells instead of the mid level bonus spells you get.

or Duskblade time:

Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3
Duskblade 2/Fighter (or whatever with full bab) 2
Dragon Disciple 10/Duskblade 10
Half-dragon Paragon or whatever 3/Duskblade 3
Duskblade 2/whatever 2

Full bab, full duskblade

You do understand that this is supposed to be a good gish, right? Duskblade doesn't need extra spells, it already has the most spells per day per spell level. What you've got here is essentially a half dragon duskblade in a game with flaws allowed and LA buyoff. You might as well be playing a normal character in a gestalt game. Just... no.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why even bother with DD at all?

Duskblade 5//Wizard 5
Half-Gold-Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) 3// Abjurant Champion 3
Half-Silver-Dragon 2// Abjurant Champion 2
Half-Silver-Dragon 1// Spellsword 1
Duskblade 9// Incantatrix 9

[Metahuman1]

Why would you want to? You're served better by using a 2hd reach weapon that you can Power Attack with.

Because If I channel 2 shivering touch attacks a round and hit with them I deal 6d6 dex damage assuming no metamagic is used too up that, and unless I roll 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, or worse, that means a frigging dragon is gonna be immobilized.

Or if I channel 2 touch of idiocy spells a round vs. a caster, I'm dealing 1d6 to what ever casting stat he's using, plus hp damage with he might or might not have a lot of.

Can screw up a lot of characters that way. And when I mentioned getting extra spells into the build via a PrC or something? You grab enlarge person, or Poly Morph, or Alter self, or something, and THAT is where you get your reach. And if your using the quick razors and used the Factotum trick? Take ranks in Balance, put a grease under you, maybe with a wand chamber or a trap of some kind, and you now have TWF Iaijutsu focus damage instead of power attack, which after you surpass the 5d6 per attack will be as good or better per hit garonteed and will just keep getting better form there.

That's why.

[hex0]

I'm a little DD obsessed for Gestalt, true. But the stat bonuses, blindsense, flight and d12 hit die are a nide 'side' to a gish build.

Here's a little less BAB heavy build that uses the spellthief impromptu sneak attack exploit:

Spellthief 3/Swashbuckler 3
Spellthief 3/Wizard 3
Abjurant Champion 2/Spellthief 2
Arcane Trickster 3/Swashbuckler 3
Abjurant Champion 2/Swashbuckler 2
Abjurant Champion 1/Spellthief 1
Arcane Trickster 4/Swashbuckler 4
open 2/Swashbuckler 2

...That is if you DM lets you use daring outlaw to sub spellthief for Rogue. Maybe let Swashbuckler count towards Spellgrace and Sneak Attack

19 BAB cast as a level 17 Wizard, level 10 spellthief. Steal two spells for free twice a day. Sneak attack +8d6. Decent saves.

[Aevio]

Because If I channel 2 shivering touch attacks a round and hit with them I deal 6d6 dex damage assuming no metamagic is used too up that, and unless I roll 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, or worse, that means a frigging dragon is gonna be immobilized.

Considering dragons only have 10 Dex to begin with, you'd have to roll worse than average to not knock it down to helpless with a single Shivering Touch, so it's not really necessary to cast two of them the majority of the time. In this specific example, I mean.


Or if I channel 2 touch of idiocy spells a round vs. a caster, I'm dealing 1d6 to what ever casting stat he's using, plus hp damage with he might or might not have a lot of.

But my above point aside, I don't think Arcane Channeling works the way you think it works. The level 3 version allows you to apply a single touch spell and make a single melee attack as a standard action. The level 13 version allows you to apply a single touch spell as part of your full attack action.

Basically, you wouldn't get any benefits from TWF Arcane Channeling until level 13 at the earliest.


And when I mentioned getting extra spells into the build via a PrC or something? You grab enlarge person, or Poly Morph, or Alter self, or something, and THAT is where you get your reach.

If you understand my previous point, then you can understand why there's really no reason not to use a reach weapon right off the bat from level 1. Though I agree that spells of that nature to help by adding bonus reach to your attacks.


And if your using the quick razors and used the Factotum trick? Take ranks in Balance, put a grease under you, maybe with a wand chamber or a trap of some kind, and you now have TWF Iaijutsu focus damage instead of power attack, which after you surpass the 5d6 per attack will be as good or better per hit garonteed and will just keep getting better form there.

That's why.

You do realize that Arcane Channeling only works on MELEE attacks, right?

[Urpriest]

You do realize that Arcane Channeling only works on MELEE attacks, right?

Quickrazors are melee weapons....

[Aevio]

Quickrazors are melee weapons....

Sorry, I misunderstood his approach. I don't ahve a lot of experience with iaijutsu focus.

But it's a hell of a lot of setup to deal a few extra dice of damage. Seriously, you can just as easily get the same damage (more damage, probably) out of Power Attack + Arcane Strike.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Considering dragons only have 10 Dex to begin with, you'd have to roll worse than average to not knock it down to helpless with a single Shivering Touch, so it's not really necessary to cast two of them the majority of the time. In this specific example, I mean.



But my above point aside, I don't think Arcane Channeling works the way you think it works. The level 3 version allows you to apply a single touch spell and make a single melee attack as a standard action. The level 13 version allows you to apply a single touch spell as part of your full attack action.

Basically, you wouldn't get any benefits from TWF Arcane Channeling until level 13 at the earliest.



If you understand my previous point, then you can understand why there's really no reason not to use a reach weapon right off the bat from level 1. Though I agree that spells of that nature to help by adding bonus reach to your attacks.



You do realize that Arcane Channeling only works on MELEE attacks, right?

Quick razors are melee weapons from RoS, they are quite similar to the Assassin's creed hidden blade

[Greenish]

Not if he throws them, they're not.True, if you throw them they're improvised weapons.

I don't see why you'd want to throw them, though.

[Aevio]

True, if you throw them they're improvised weapons.

I don't see why you'd want to throw them, though.

I edited my last post.

[hex0]

You could also you full attack arcane channeling with two weapon fighting and natural attacks. (maybe just a dip into Dragon Disciple)

8 chances to pull off your spell...

Duskblade/Ranger 11
Duskblade/Dragon Disciple 2
Mystic Theurge 7/Full BAB base class(es)

You could even put on some blade boots and armor spikes and have 10 attacks to work with.

[Grendus]

I'm a little DD obsessed for Gestalt, true. But the stat bonuses, blindsense, flight and d12 hit die are a nide 'side' to a gish build.

A one level dip in Mindbender and Mindsight trumps blindsense, you get better flight from spells or you could just take the Dragonborn template, and d12 hit dice are one more hp/level than d10 hit dice which gish PrC and its uncle has.


Here's a little less BAB heavy build that uses the spellthief impromptu sneak attack exploit:

Spellthief 3/Swashbuckler 3
Spellthief 3/Wizard 3
Abjurant Champion 2/Spellthief 2
Arcane Trickster 3/Swashbuckler 3
Abjurant Champion 2/Swashbuckler 2
Abjurant Champion 1/Spellthief 1
Arcane Trickster 4/Swashbuckler 4
open 2/Swashbuckler 2

...That is if you DM lets you use daring outlaw to sub spellthief for Rogue. Maybe let Swashbuckler count towards Spellgrace and Sneak Attack

19 BAB cast as a level 17 Wizard, level 10 spellthief. Steal two spells for free twice a day. Sneak attack +8d6. Decent saves.

Uhh... how about we do most of that with a single side of the gestalt. Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4. Use Master Spellthief to steal spells (you can't keep them, unfortunately, but if you wanted to do a little more spellthief on the other side of the gestalt you could) as a 19th level spellthief. You can cast as an 18th level wizard, get +7d6 sneak attack damage. You only have 12 BAB, but you can get that on the opposite side of your gestalt (maybe go a little duskblade for spell channeling, full BAB, and d10 hit dice), and all you're really losing are your iteratives since Wrathstrike, a second level spell, lets you perform all your attacks as touch attacks.

Leaves you 20 levels on the other gestalt side to play with. It does have some weaknesses: low-ish hp, low BAB, no real fort save to speak of. Get that on the other side of the gestalt. A Ranger 2/Duskblade 3/Barbarian 1/Ranger 4/Duskblade 13//Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4 gets +7d6 sneak attack, 18th level wizard casting, can steal spells (which he can't keep, but stripping 9th level spells from a wizard is vicious), can channel spells with his full attack, two favored enemies, full BAB, d8 and d10 hit dice, and pretty much full saves. It's what I'd go with if I wanted a sneak attack gish.

[Aevio]

A one level dip in Mindbender and Mindsight trumps blindsense, you get better flight from spells or you could just take the Dragonborn template, and d12 hit dice are one more hp/level than d10 hit dice which gish PrC and its uncle has.



Uhh... how about we do most of that with a single side of the gestalt. Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4. Use Master Spellthief to steal spells (you can't keep them, unfortunately, but if you wanted to do a little more spellthief on the other side of the gestalt you could) as a 19th level spellthief. You can cast as an 18th level wizard, get +7d6 sneak attack damage. You only have 12 BAB, but you can get that on the opposite side of your gestalt (maybe go a little duskblade for spell channeling, full BAB, and d10 hit dice), and all you're really losing are your iteratives since Wrathstrike, a second level spell, lets you perform all your attacks as touch attacks.

Really, all you need to do at that point is increase your BAB by 4 to get your full set of iterative attacks.

Though I'm not sure I really like all these level 20 builds. This thread was originally created to ask about level 6 gestalt, afterall.

[Greenish]

You could do sorcadin deluxe. Sorcerer 6//Paladin 4/Fighter 2 for a simple one, for example. Or evil: Sorcerer 6//Paladin of Tyranny 3/Duskblade 3.

Plain wizard 6//duskblade 6 isn't bad, either, as mentioned. You could replace that last level of wizard with Abjurant Champion for free Extend on Abjuration spells.

[Tvtyrant]

You know what is great in Gestalt? War Hulk. No BaB loss.

[Grendus]

For a level 6 gish, I've already stated what I'd probably go with - Warlock 6//Duskblade 6. Grab, among others, Eldritch Glaive, Hideous Blow*, and Fell Flight. You now can make all your attacks for 3d6 damage as touch attacks, or make a standard action attack for 3d6 Hideous Blow plus 5d6 Shocking Grasp damage. That's 8d6 damage folks, as a standard action. Want to make it even more vicious, toss in some Power Attack and Blade of Blood. Now we're dealing 11d6+12 damage as a touch attack, or roughly 50 damage as a standard action before your strength.

*Eldritch Glaive requires a full round action. Go figure. So if you needed to swoop in you would have to hit them with a hideous blow. Oh well, it's not that bad when you're using Arcane Channeling with it.

[hex0]

Though I'm not sure I really like all these level 20 builds. This thread was originally created to ask about level 6 gestalt, afterall.

But you should know where you are going as you level up, at least a little bit.

[avr]

Another idea - Duskblade//Binder should work. Binder covers a number of utility apps and helps melee as well.

[Aevio]

But you should know where you are going as you level up, at least a little bit.

Yeah, but a lot of these 8-10 class builds that are being thrown around are weak and unfocused at low levels, making them unfeasible for the TC's current campaign. They're fine if you can start at level 12+, but that's not the case here.

[hex0]

For simpliticy's sake then if I had to start as a 6th level Gish I would do either

Swashbuckler/Wizard 3
Duskblade/wizard 2
Abj. Champion/Duskblade 1

[Curious]

Alright, here's my build contribution to this thread:

Magus 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)/Swashbuckler 1/Monk 1/Magus 3 - 18//Swashbuckler 2/(Sage Bloodline) Sorceror 18 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sage).

Be a human. Take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat at 1st level. Take Martial Study and choose a Shadow Hand stance as your maneuver gained. Then take Shadow Blade at level 3. At level 6 you take Carmendine Monk. Make sure to choose Arcane Accuracy and Broad Study as your first 2 Magus Arcana.

-Swashbuckler 3 gets you Int to damage (you switch the last level over to the left side of the gestalt to get 9th level spells from Sorc).
-Carmendine Monk gets you Int to AC in place of Wis.
-Faerie Mysteries Initiate gets you Int to HP.
-Arcane Accuracy gets you Int to hit.
-Broad Study allows you to use the Magus' Spell Combat feature with spells from other classes.
-Swashbuckler 1 gets you Weapon Finesse for Dex to hit in addition to Int.
-Shadow Blade gets you Dex to damage in addition to Int.

Entirely Int and Dex based, really comes online at exactly level 6. Have fun.

EDIT: Also, once you have a feat to spare, grab the Experimental Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) feat and pick Accelerate as your effect word. It is a second level spell that gives you an extra move action.

[Metahuman1]

With regards too my suggested build, You'd actually be dealing reasonable damage at the level 6 start between Knowledge Devotion, Iaijutsu focus, a reasonable Str Mod, and Arcane Channeling.

Honestly, I'd recommend something else altogether if it wasn't for the Duskblades Channeling ability.

[hex0]

I don't think this is pathfinder? I don't the OP said?

You could do the Swashbuckler/Monk/Duskblade (and/or wizard)/Enlighted Fist action instead though

[Curious]

I don't think this is pathfinder? I don't the OP said?

You could do the Swashbuckler/Monk/Duskblade (and/or wizard)/Enlighted Fist action instead though

Eh, PF is a 3rd party source just like any other, I personally allow anything from PF in my 3.5 games, and 3.5 in my PF games.

[Greenish]

Speaking of factotums, straight up Factotum/Duskblade would be excellently well-rounded character. It doesn't quite have the casting power of many other suggestions, but it sure has tricks on it's own.

[hex0]

Speaking of factotums, straight up Factotum/Duskblade would be excellently well-rounded character. It doesn't quite have the casting power of many other suggestions, but it sure has tricks on it's own.

At least until Factotum 8. You can qualify for PRCs with Factotum like a Warlock too.

[Andreaz]

A totemist or incarnate // wizard or druid or cleric is quite fun. Having spellcasting at your side(and midnight metamagic, even without shenanigans) lets you play the better strenghts of incarnum. For example, you don't need to burn all essentia into your attack(incarnate weapon or totemist blender), and having access to stuff like teleports and concealment on the incarnum side spares you spells to use on the enemies. Even if you do incarnate//wiz you'll be lolkilling stuff with your piddly half bab.

[Greenish]

At least until Factotum 8. You can qualify for PRCs with Factotum like a Warlock too.But why would you? You still have Cunning Breach, Cunning Dodge and Imp. Cunning Defense to grab, not to even mention Cunning Brilliance.

And staying factotum saves you a feat from Able Learner.

[dspeyer]

For something completely different, try a drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider) RHD 6 // LA 4 / Paladin of Slaughter 2.

Casts as a 6th level sorceror with 5 BAB. What's worth giving up a point of BAB for? Racial bonuses of +4 or +6 to all stats, including +6 to cha. Big skill bonuses, SLAs (cha-based). Large size. Climb speed. If you prefer wizard casting, you can pick that instead, though the int bonus is only +4 and the SLAs remain cha-based. In that case, probably swap out paladin for something int-based. Probably duskblade, though channeling waits for next level.

If being always chaotic evil bothers you, you can pull similar tricks with an aranea ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea). The stats aren't as good, but you get humanoid form and full bab. You'll need to convince your dm that class levels in sorcerer stack with your racial casting.

[Godskook]

You'll need to convince your dm that class levels in sorcerer stack with your racial casting.

Its blatant RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng), so unless the DM houserules against him, there's no worries.

[DeAnno]

For something completely different, try a drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider) RHD 6 // LA 4 / Paladin of Slaughter 2.


However, splitting up your Drider LA and RHD like that is certainly not blatant RAW, and may be a difficult get it past the DM check.

[hex0]

I like anything with a CON based save (like the Drider). They make good Barbarian/caster gishes that can buff, rage, grapple and poison foes. Good times.