Looking for "Barbarian Fiction" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Yora

2011-09-11, 02:37 PM

Aidan305

2011-09-11, 02:41 PM

The various tales of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser by Fritz Leiber are good. I'd recommend them to anyone seeking out that sort of genre.

hamishspence

2011-09-11, 03:02 PM

Mercedes Lackey's Tarma & Kethry books are a bit like that- but the "barbarian hero" is female- and a bit different from the Conan stereotype.

H Birchgrove

2011-09-11, 03:03 PM

There are also comics of Conan, King Kull (another Barbarian created by REH) and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.

Only one Conan "book" by REH is a novel (The Hour of the Dragon/Conan the Conqueror), the rest are short story collections.

Here's more about the Conan editions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_%28books%29

Zen Monkey

2011-09-11, 03:05 PM

Robert Howard's stories of Conan are definitely the place to start. The longest one might be 100 pages, depending on the format, and some are as short as 20 pages. They don't need to be read in any order. In fact, they were written out of chronological order so that the first Conan story ever written is one of his last adventures.

Some good shorter ones include Shadows in Zamboula, The Frost Giant's Daughter, The Tower of the Elephant, and definitely Beyond the Black River.

I can't vouch for the quality of later Conan writers, as I'm biased toward the originals.

hamishspence

2011-09-11, 03:08 PM

I saw a chronology of the Conan stories, in the back of a Robert Jordan Conan book- but Tower of the Elephant (the earliest, or very nearly) was placed right near the beginning, chronologically, when Conan was still a young thief.

Tyrant

2011-09-11, 03:58 PM

I like stories of barbarians doing barbarian things.

Problem is, there doesn't seem to be very much of it. Of course I've seen the Conan movie and the 13th Warrior, played God of War, read Icewind Dale and Co., and plan to read Berserk. I even endured the trashy 3D Beowulf. And I've seen Princess Mononoke, if you want to stretch is really far.
But most stories seem to be either parodies, ot just plain trash.

I probably should read Robert Howard, but somehow I don't feel like long novels right now. Is there anything roughly similar that you could recommend to me?
Which Conan movie have you seen? There are 3 all together though I honestly only recommend 1, the first one. The second one isn't terrible, but it's inferior to the first. The remake was something of a letdown to me. There is Red Sonja to consider as well. Arnold is in it as a priest I think, it's been a while since I watched it. I never watched it, but there is also a movie for Kull the Conqueror. I would say The Scorpion King qualifies as well. There's some ideas on the movie front anyway.

Dr.Epic

2011-09-11, 06:11 PM

How do you like comedic sword and sorcery stories?:smallwink:

Korgoth of Barbaria: a failed pilot from Adult Swim, which in my opinion is the best thing they've done with the exception of the Venture Bros. It's got some good artwork and animation considering Adult Swim has made such shows as 12 Oz. Mouse, Squidbillies, and Aqua Teen Hunger Force. The pilot is really funny and it's a shame it was never picked up. I'm sure you can find the thing somewhere on the web.

Your Highness: Basically a straight up Conan parody except with more blood, more cursing, and more profanity. The film is pretty funny and even pays tribute to many other fantasy films.

Adventure Time: This is basically what the Lord of the Rings would have been if Tolkien wrote the trilogy as a 5 year old boy on a sugar high. The series is pretty iconic of high fantasy themes and often includes various D&D elements (in one episode they reference the 8 schools of magic). Still, it keeps its comedic nature with such elements as the Candy Kingdom and a magical trickster that turns people into body parts for doing kind acts.

Dragon Hunters: A French cartoon many people might not know about but is still good. The series is about three dragon hunters - a large, humble barbarian with a massive sword, a slimy business man that handles the contracts that's every 1930s gangster cliche, and a blue, hairy, talking, dragon creature. The series is pretty creative: I love the fantasy setting as the world is just floating land masses in the sky and most of the dragons have cool designs (though I am stumped how a swarm of large bees and a polymorphing spider with four legs count as a dragon). Still, a great series and the film is worth checking out.

Tyrant

2011-09-11, 07:13 PM

Your Highness: Basically a straight up Conan parody except with more blood, more cursing, and more profanity. The film is pretty funny and even pays tribute to many other fantasy films.
How is Your Highness a Conan parody? And when did it have more blood? I might have missed it while I was wondering why I ever thought it would be an entertaining movie. It probably doesn't help that I don't enjoy the Danny McBride "I'll just say obscene things throughout the entire movie. That's funny, right?" school of comedy.

Traab

2011-09-11, 07:38 PM

Which Conan movie have you seen? There are 3 all together though I honestly only recommend 1, the first one. The second one isn't terrible, but it's inferior to the first. The remake was something of a letdown to me. There is Red Sonja to consider as well. Arnold is in it as a priest I think, it's been a while since I watched it. I never watched it, but there is also a movie for Kull the Conqueror. I would say The Scorpion King qualifies as well. There's some ideas on the movie front anyway.

In red sonja, Arnold is Prince Kalidor, it was actually originally going to be conan in there. But anyways, he was some sort of warrior prince. And the running gasg through the movie is sonja and her challange, "I shall only sleep with the man who can defeat me." So there are some drawn out duels between them because of it. :p (Not that I blame her for being picky, considering her past)

Tyrant

2011-09-11, 08:32 PM

In red sonja, Arnold is Prince Kalidor, it was actually originally going to be conan in there. But anyways, he was some sort of warrior prince. And the running gasg through the movie is sonja and her challange, "I shall only sleep with the man who can defeat me." So there are some drawn out duels between them because of it. :p (Not that I blame her for being picky, considering her past)
That's what I get for posting before consulting the IMDB.

Traab

2011-09-11, 09:18 PM

Meh, I already knew everything but his name before checking wiki. It was a good corny movie.

Dr.Epic

2011-09-11, 10:39 PM

How is Your Highness a Conan parody? And when did it have more blood? I might have missed it while I was wondering why I ever thought it would be an entertaining movie. It probably doesn't help that I don't enjoy the Danny McBride "I'll just say obscene things throughout the entire movie. That's funny, right?" school of comedy.

How is it not a Conan parody? It's about an evil wizard that kidnaps a virgin and a group of adventurers have to rescue her. Not to mention a large, muscleman wearing a loincloth appears in the film to help the good guys. It's as much a Conan parody as Space Balls is a Star Wars parody. And it's at least as blood. People do dismembered throughout the thing.

Killer Angel

2011-09-12, 05:12 AM

I probably should read Robert Howard, but somehow I don't feel like long novels right now. Is there anything roughly similar that you could recommend to me?

As already pointed out, Conan's stories are almost all short.
For a more serious, grimdark (and evil) character, I highly recommend Kane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kane_(fantasy)), by K. E. Wagner. There are books, but also story collections, and Night Winds is really excellent.
(Edit: Kane isn't nice: he's amoral and often ruthless to the point of betrayal, though he can rarely be somewhat honorable. The stories span thousands of years, throughout the monumental evil which Kane has perpetrated in his long existance. But you root for him.)

But most stories seem to be either parodies, ot just plain trash.

The Barbarians (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092615/)! :smallbiggrin:
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6BAd7xJuU0)'s a scene... :smalltongue:

H Birchgrove

2011-09-12, 08:35 AM

I forgot to mention that there is a live action and an animated (2D) TV-series of Conan. You can see the live action series for free through Voddler (http://www.voddler.com/en/search/results/conan/). Expect it to be low budget and corny. The animated Conan The Adventurer seems to be fairly "serious" in tone; while Conan being a traditional good hero who quest to save his family from a spell that turned them into stone, the villains are the Serpent Men who did originate from REH's stories.

Then there's the post-apocalyptic Thundarr the Barbarian, and a personal favourite of mine, Pirates of Black Water. As for live action, there's Xena: Warrior Princess and the series which she originally came from, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, though they're more like Heroic Fantasy in general.

Though maybe you'd prefer the 1958 film with Steve Reeves. (http://www.voddler.com/en/movie/info/2788190074057268889/hercules/) :smallwink:

Yora

2011-09-12, 08:48 AM

I tried to watch the animated series again some months ago.

It is not as amazingly good as I remembered. :smallbiggrin:

Tyrant

2011-09-12, 02:19 PM

Dr. Epic:
How is it not a Conan parody?
Because there isn't a single central character that is clearly a parody of any character in either Conan movie. No main character is even a Barbarian, much less a parody of Conan. One or two possible parodies of one or two bits of another movie do not a parody make. Space Balls has at least one joke about Star Trek and one about Alien and they are very clear, but it is not a parody of either of those films/series.

It's about an evil wizard that kidnaps a virgin and a group of adventurers have to rescue her.
Conan didn't invent that, nor popularize it. It was also a minor part of the second movie, not the entire plot.

Not to mention a large, muscleman wearing a loincloth appears in the film to help the good guys.
And? He shows up quite a bit into the movie, and then gets killed. What exactly is that a parody of? This is why the movie is not in any way a "straight up Conan parody". The closest you have to a similar character is a throw away character with no real screen time. A straight up Conan parody would probably have a Barbarian as a main character.

It's as much a Conan parody as Space Balls is a Star Wars parody.
Really? I could elaborate on how several major characters, themes, plot points, etc are taken from Star Wars and parodied in Space Balls. This cannot be done between Conan and Your Highness. Your Higness is a parody of sword and sorcery movies, of which Conan (the stories) was a contributing factor. It is not a parody of Conan.

And it's at least as blood. People do dismembered throughout the thing.
I admit I only watched it once, but I really don't recall that happening on the level it does in Conan the Barbarian. The Destroyer? Maybe. It was PG after all.

I tried to watch the animated series again some months ago.

It is not as amazingly good as I remembered. :smallbiggrin:
I saw that on DVD recently and I have considered buying it. Was it really that bad?

Giggling Ghast

2011-09-12, 03:29 PM

Y'know, for all that the "barbarian hero" gets parodied, there's really a dearth of straight barbarian hero fiction.

That said, I'd recommend the Scorpion King movies. They're of lackluster quality — particularly the sequels — but they do fit the bill for what you seek.

Traab

2011-09-12, 03:55 PM

The ULTIMATE barbarian show. RAWR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET4G9oWkKHQ)

H Birchgrove

2011-09-12, 06:02 PM

The ULTIMATE barbarian show. RAWR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET4G9oWkKHQ)

Conan the Librarian (http://youtu.be/mZHoHaAYHq8)

Tavar

2011-09-12, 06:11 PM

Can you define 'barbarians doing barbarian things' better? I might have some suggestions, but I'm not sure if they fit.

TheThan

2011-09-12, 07:58 PM

Well lets see the Conan stories weren’t written in any chronological order, Howard jumped about in time a lot. He pretty much just wrote about whatever he felt about writing about at the time. I found a book at the library that placed them in the order in which they were written, which is probably the best way of going about reading the conan stories.

there's also the short lived Conan the adventure. It aired around the same time as Xena and Hercules, and tried to do the same thing but with less camp. it only lasted 5 episodes (you can find it on hulu). despite its' miserable failure, its actually not that bad.

Starbuck_II

2011-09-12, 08:07 PM

I forgot to mention that there is a live action and an animated (2D) TV-series of Conan. You can see the live action series for free through Voddler (http://www.voddler.com/en/search/results/conan/). Expect it to be low budget and corny. The animated Conan The Adventurer seems to be fairly "serious" in tone; while Conan being a traditional good hero who quest to save his family from a spell that turned them into stone, the villains are the Serpent Men who did originate from REH's stories.

I do recommend the cartoon of Conan. It is pretty good in his spirit of him though, remember in the last season: Conan learns magic (animal spirit summoning: his spirit Animal was a Lion) from the Druid-ish dude (african one).

there's also the short lived Conan the adventure. It aired around the same time as Xena and Hercules, and tried to do the same thing but with less camp. it only lasted 5 episodes (you can find it on hulu). despite its' miserable failure, its actually not that bad.

I loved that Live Action Series. Especially the midget thief (as well as the bald silent monk and the Medium sized dwarf with an axe). Too bad it was cut short.

Yora

2011-09-13, 08:40 AM

Can you define 'barbarians doing barbarian things' better? I might have some suggestions, but I'm not sure if they fit.

Basically all fantasy that isn't renaissance themed with knights in shining armor definding the Kingdom of Light again the evil empire of ugly monsters.
Stories about personal goals that don't revolve about about big wars to defend kingdoms or even save the world.
That is not actually specific to barbarian characters, but almost all such stories I can think of actually are about iron age warriors from small villages at the edge of nowhere.

Traab

2011-09-13, 08:44 AM

Could try the icewind dale trilogy. Its drizzt though, so be aware. But it brings up barbarians, lots of hack and slash, no plate wearing paladins involved, just lethal warriors out doing whatever their quest may be.

Yora

2011-09-13, 08:48 AM

It fits, but I've already read that. :smallamused:

Kneenibble

2011-09-13, 08:50 AM

Are Neanderthals barbarians? There's the Earth Children series.

Tavar

2011-09-13, 08:52 AM

Might try David Weber's Oath of Swords. The Manga Vinland Saga would probably also work.

Traab

2011-09-13, 08:57 AM

Might try David Weber's Oath of Swords. The Manga Vinland Saga would probably also work.

Holy crap, I forgot about the oath of swords series. AWESOME story, definite barbarians, if of a different style, and lots of humor mixed in with the action. Seriously, david weber is primarily sci fi, but this is his fantasy work and its incredible. The descriptions he writes are so vivid you can see it in your head, its just all around an excellent trilogy.

Eldan

2011-09-13, 09:21 AM

For a very remote definition of Barbarian:

The Assassin's Apprentice and sequels. The main character is... complicated. He uses a battle axe, and he rages, and he has animal companions and primal magic, but he also uses psionics and is an assassin and court educated... (he's not as overpowered as he sounds and the book doesn't use the D&D terms I'm using here).

And half the books take place in the wild and the other half is court intrigue.

Yora

2011-09-13, 11:29 AM

Might try David Weber's Oath of Swords. The Manga Vinland Saga would probably also work.
Completely forgot about Vinland Saga. Though I am a bit doubtful about the claims of historical accuracy. I can't remember ever seeing such majestic mountains in Denmark. :smallbiggrin:

Worlok

2011-09-13, 05:07 PM

Well, most of what the North of Europe had in terms of mountains did fall off sometime in the last Ice Ages, so if you were to remember seeing those, that would just be more worrying, historically. :smalltongue:

Anywho, barbarian fiction. No list on that would be complete without the EYE OF ARGON (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/eyeargon/eyeargon.htm)! (Mind the rules for reading (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/argnrule.htm), though! :smallwink:)

But really, now, there is still Wagner's stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kane_%28fantasy%29) - by which I mean no disrespect, but opinions do differ on these ones. And Red Sonja made it into quite a line of novels penned by Smith and Tierney, but I can not really tell you whether they are any good.

Then, some of Poul Anderson's works have been said to be rather quite Sword-and-Sorcer-y, but I have no clue as to how strongly they feature barbarian archetypes; last time I checked (Last November) some of his books were quite stupidly hard to track down. "The Last Viking" sounds promising, though, don't you think? :smallbiggrin:

Furthermore, Gemmell's "Legend" and what came after have been recommended to me, but I haven't yet gotten a chance to read any there.

Then, there's the odd pile of barbarian awesome all over fiction, usually in quite unexpected places. But I'd have to go back to my "database" to offer an inclusive list.

I'm sorry if this is no use whatsoever. I really am. But - Should you find any more good barbarian tales, could you let me know? Been looking for some new stuff there myself, to be perfectly honest. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Also, seconding Doc Epic on Dragon Hunters. Did not see much of it, but I liked what I did catch. :smallbiggrin:

Traab

2011-09-13, 08:23 PM

Furthermore, Gemmell's "Legend" and what came after have been recommended to me, but I haven't yet gotten a chance to read any there.

Any story where an axe wielding warrior can put down a young soldier by claiming he has no right to talk, "with your chin still wet from your mothers milk" is automatically badass. Same for insulting the leader of a barbarian horde that outnumbers your troops 500 to 1 by saying, "Where you come from the mountains may tremble when you break wind, but so far as im concerned, you are just a pot bellied savage to stupid to find his own ass with both hands and a map tattooed to your thigh!"

I REALLY recommend reading Druss The Legend, The Legend of Deathstalker, and Legend. In that order. Then read all gemmels other books. Some have more Druss in them, but those are the three main ones of his life. The Nadir are the tribsemen barbarian race, Druss is just an ass kicking warrior with an axe that has slaughtered thousands. He is the ultimate fricking warrior and EVERYONE knows who he is and both respects and fears his name.

Scarlet Knight

2011-09-14, 08:15 AM

If you can find it: Tros of Samothrace by Talbot Mundy.

There's got to be some books where the hero is Goth, Pict, Gaul, or Dane...

Worlok

2011-09-14, 10:21 AM

There's got to be some books where the hero is Goth
Suddenly, vampire thread. :smallbiggrin:

No, really, Tros sounds interesting. I, for one, will try to get my hands on it.

Any story where an axe wielding warrior can put down a young soldier by claiming he has no right to talk, "with your chin still wet from your mothers milk" is automatically badass. Same for insulting the leader of a barbarian horde that outnumbers your troops 500 to 1 by saying, "Where you come from the mountains may tremble when you break wind, but so far as im concerned, you are just a pot bellied savage to stupid to find his own ass with both hands and a map tattooed to your thigh!"

I REALLY recommend reading Druss The Legend, The Legend of Deathstalker, and Legend. In that order. Then read all gemmels other books. Some have more Druss in them, but those are the three main ones of his life. The Nadir are the tribsemen barbarian race, Druss is just an ass kicking warrior with an axe that has slaughtered thousands. He is the ultimate fricking warrior and EVERYONE knows who he is and both respects and fears his name.
Oh hell yeah, sold right there! Should that conquering urge from your signature resurface anytime soon, I'd gladly do battle alongside you, man! :smallamused:

Also, to get back at Yora here: That one book about those elves by Bernhard Hennen (I think it's simply called "Die Elfen", but I'm not quite sure) also features a decent barbarian. Fights, quests and plunders, gets a magic tree drunk and does not afraid of nothing, among other things. And then there's Hägar, if you want to count him in, or of course The Thirteenth Warrior, which has plenty of concentrated Viking awesome, after all! :smallsmile:

Oh, and speaking of, there's always historical novels. Good luck tracking down a good one among those, though. :smalleek:

Yora

2011-09-14, 10:42 AM

Suddenly, vampire thread. :smallbiggrin:
Vinland Saga has an emo ninja viking.

Also, to get back at Yora here: That one book about those elves by Bernhard Hennen (I think it's simply called "Die Elfen", but I'm not quite sure) also features a decent barbarian. Fights, quests and plunders, gets a magic tree drunk and does not afraid of nothing, among other things. And then there's Hägar, if you want to count him in, or of course The Thirteenth Warrior, which has plenty of concentrated Viking awesome, after all! :smallsmile:
I think I once got it from my brother for christmas. I read only the first chapter or so, because I hated it so much.

Serpentine

2011-09-14, 11:34 AM

Worlok

2011-09-14, 12:13 PM

I think I once got it from my brother for christmas. I read only the first chapter or so, because I hated it so much.
I remember the first chapter actually getting me hooked back then. I mean, it starts off with Vikings vs. a Demon-Pig, "Predator"-style, and I only really got tired of it when the elves dominated the plot later on. Frankly, dude should have written "The Mandred Torgridson Story" and cut the pointy-ears out entirely. But that's just me, and opinions differ (I remember needing several goes at it to get to the end, myself, though), just thought I should bring it up. :smallbiggrin:

emo ninja viking
Okay, yeah, point taken. Are there any barbarian vampire hunter stories, though? :smallwink:

Dsurion

2011-09-14, 12:50 PM

Logen Ninefingers in The Blade Itself (http://www.joeabercrombie.com/books/the-blade-itself) is very much a barbarian, but he doesn't so much have an agenda. Everyone else does though... You can even read the first chapter to get a feel for whether or not you like it.

Tavar

2011-09-14, 01:22 PM

Almost forgot: Oath of Swords and it's sequel are free downloads offered by the publisher. You would still need to get the third book and the short story somewhere else, though. Here's a link to the download. (http://www.webscription.net/p-297-oath-of-swords.aspx)

Yora

2011-09-15, 05:17 AM

I remember the first chapter actually getting me hooked back then. I mean, it starts off with Vikings vs. a Demon-Pig, "Predator"-style, and I only really got tired of it when the elves dominated the plot later on. Frankly, dude should have written "The Mandred Torgridson Story" and cut the pointy-ears out entirely. But that's just me, and opinions differ (I remember needing several goes at it to get to the end, myself, though), just thought I should bring it up. :smallbiggrin:
No, than it was clearly a different book. The one I had was so cheesy and began right with some human boy being a chosen one to save the elven kingdom or something like that, that I couldn't continue reading.

Hida Reju

2011-09-15, 06:39 AM

SM Sterling had a series of books he wrote. First one was Snowbrother. Basicly after the nuke wars things were back to barbarian basics and our Female Barbarian hangs out with a Psi witch who seduces her from a life of barbarian conquest with the concept of regular baths, lack of beatings, and decent food.

It was an awesome read for the first 5 books. The last 2 were not written with him but were still decent.

Ashtar

2011-09-15, 07:56 AM

If you read French, there's just about the best never officially published Barbarian fiction online at http://aspexplorer.pagesperso-orange.fr/kalonbrw.htm "The adventures of Kalon"

Also take note of the Morgoth, the impaler, young necromancer series...

Serpentine

2011-09-15, 07:59 AM

Speaking of French...
What about Asterix and Obelix?! :biggrin:

H Birchgrove

2011-09-15, 11:50 AM

Asterix is great, I still love those comics. :smallbiggrin:

For more adult flavour, there is the comic Sláine written by Pat Mills. Expect anvils about how awesome matriarchy is.

The_Snark

2011-09-15, 04:18 PM

Oh, and speaking of, there's always historical novels. Good luck tracking down a good one among those, though. :smalleek:

I rather liked Cecilia Holland's The Soul Thief. Well, that's not quite true; I'm lukewarm about The Soul Thief itself, but it's the start of a six-book series and I quite liked most of the sequels. They're sort of a historical fiction/low fantasy thing, and while they might not be exactly what you're looking for they come pretty close in some sections.

Worlok

2011-09-15, 08:30 PM

No, than it was clearly a different book. The one I had was so cheesy and began right with some human boy being a chosen one to save the elven kingdom or something like that, that I couldn't continue reading.
Case in point, different book most likely. That may have been one of the sequels, though. They're all titled quite similarly (and I don't know one of them), but the first part of the series is definitely worth a shot for barbarian goodness. :smallamused:

I rather liked Cecilia Holland's The Soul Thief. Well, that's not quite true; I'm lukewarm about The Soul Thief itself, but it's the start of a six-book series and I quite liked most of the sequels. They're sort of a historical fiction/low fantasy thing, and while they might not be exactly what you're looking for they come pretty close in some sections.
Sounds alright, yes. Might give it a try if I find the time. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Das Platyvark

2011-09-15, 08:32 PM

It's certainly parody, but the first book in the chronicle of Cerebus the Earth-Pig born is quite enjoyable, and very awesome.

Thane of Fife

2011-09-15, 09:59 PM

Basically all fantasy that isn't renaissance themed with knights in shining armor definding the Kingdom of Light again the evil empire of ugly monsters.
Stories about personal goals that don't revolve about about big wars to defend kingdoms or even save the world.
That is not actually specific to barbarian characters, but almost all such stories I can think of actually are about iron age warriors from small villages at the edge of nowhere.

It's not about barbarians, but Edgar Rice Burroughs's Princess of Mars and the following series does, I think, met your criteria (well, there are sort of barbarians, but not in the iron age sense). John Carter and all that. They're very swords-and-sorcery-esque, and I'd recommend them. (As a matter of fact, Tarzan probably meets your criteria as well, though it's not really fantasy).

Jeffrey Lord (actually, I think, several authors under that name) wrote a long series of books, the Richard Blade series, which feature a modern secret agent traveling to other universes and struggling to survive in them until the machine that sends him can pull him back. No guns or anything, just Blade's wits and manliness.

Raven, Swordsmistress of Chaos and the associated series is another good set of adventures which I think meets your criteria. These are iron age, and are probably more comparable to Salvatore's stuff than to Conan.

All of these books are longer than individual Conan stories, though, but most things are.