Whats a good gish build that can reduce saving throws of his opponites?

[Vemynal]

What is a good combination of classes that would be able to make up a gish that is capable of reducing the saving throws for Ref., Fort., and Willpower?

Preferably as a passive aura effect or targetable effects that severely decrease scores.

Need a decent build for a hostile npc BBG's lieutenant who thematically drains away at his opponites. Any additional fluff that accompanies this would be awesome.

Preferably somewhere in the tier 3 to tier 2 range

he's going to be a recurring character so something that would start at say level 5 but progress up to level 20 would be good.
But preferably hits its stride around level 8 to 10 (campaign probably will end by level 15/17)

thank you! =)

[Greenish]

Paladin of Tyranny/Dark Companion Hexblade into Suel Arcanamach?

[Bhaakon]

Er, nevermind

[Talya]

Bard is still the best gish, and can do what you want.

Feat: Doomspeak

Type: Bardic
Source: Champions of Ruin

Prerequisites: Bardic music, some Intimidate ranks, and of course Perform
Benefit: You can spend one of your bardic music uses cuss out one enemy within a fairly good range. Unusually high DC Will save (DC 10 + your FULL character level instead of only half + your Cha modifier) is cursed with a -10 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks for 1 round. This is NOT mind affecting.

Note - intimidate is not class for bard. You need a way to add intimidate to your class skills list to get this in a reasonable time frame (Martial Study - Devoted Spirit Maneuver works).

[Coidzor]

Depending upon the levels involved, Poison Spell (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) could be of interest.

Also, the toxic enchantment.

Ways to make poisons last longer

Poison Spell: this feat from Drow of the Underdark lets a poison apply to your touch spells - and Chill Touch lasts for up to 5 attacks, therefore spreading the dosage out over several rounds.
Toxic Enhancement: This +1 weapon enhancement from DoTU makes a poison last for 2 successful hits instead of one. Just what the doctor ordered!

[Curious]

The Hexcrafter Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) does this pretty well. They get Witch Hexes, several of which reduce saves, in return for some stuff they don't really need. Not bad.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A standard Sorcadic build with Paladin of Tyranny seems the best way to start, perhaps getting some SA dice to use sickening strike to further debuff...and I recall one vestige giving an aura similar to the Pally of Tyranny and I think you could get it with feats.

[Vemynal]

wasn't it the Paladin of Slaughter the one that had the -2 to saves aura?

And I had never heard of that feat Talya! I'll maybe have to look into that. Here I was thinking of maybe just switching this guys "inspire courage" to cause a negative effect on others lol.

Can someone explain to me what "Paladin of Tyranny/Dark Companion Hexblade into Suel Arcanamach" does?


I know I've seen a gish build for this before, it had the hexblade, one of the paladin variants, I think it had a single level of binder for some vistige (no idea what) and a few levels in a couple of other things.

Thanks for any tips you can give! this is a character I've been looking forward to presenting in a campaign for awhile now!

[faceroll]

Paladin of Tyranny/Dark Companion Hexblade into Suel Arcanamach?

To expand- at level 3, the paladin of tyranny (from UA) gets an aura that gives opponents within 10 feet a -2 penalty on saves. The dark companion (from PHBII) replaces your familiar at level 4, and enemies next to it take a -2 penalty on saves.

The problem here, though, is no arcane casting until level 7, and then it's just a single crappy hexblade spell. You could then dip a level of bard (picking up inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration), followed by a level of sublime chord, and then 5 levels of abjurant champion (full casting, full BAB), and then a level of spellsword (-10% ASF, +1 BAB, +1 level spellcasting). This brings you up to level 15 with a BAB of +14 (using partial BAB) and 7th level spells. Adjacent enemies take -4 to their saves, you have use of the hexblade's curse to swift action throw out save-or-loses, and bard gets you bard song, for doomspeak and serious buffing.

The issue is that you're basically a mediocre warrior for the first 7 levels (though you get charisma to all saves twice), and don't begin to become gish like until level 8 or 9.

[Vemynal]

So your saying:

Paladin of Tyranny (w/ Dark Companion) / Hexblade / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abj. Champ. 5

throw in "Doomspeak" and I'm going to re-engineer his "inspire courage" into "inspire terror" (minuses instead of pluses)

And this should put the character at level 15 approx?


Hmm he's not supposed to have a companion but I suppose I could theme the dark companion as his weapon or something like that...

Anyone know what the Binder vistage is? It actually fits perfectly for this character's back story that this character is influenced by a dark specter. Oooo maybe I could have the "dark companion" be that lol

[faceroll]

Paladin of Tyranny gets a debuff aura at level 3; Hexblade gets a dark companion at level 4 (instead of familiar). The dark companion is a special thing. You should read the rules on it. It just hangs out, and I think only a targeted dispel can get rid of it, and you can call it back on your next turn. It's like a ghost or something, but not undead.

Doomspeak is a feat, and gives you another option to use bard song on. You can buff your party with inspire courage for +5attack/damage (+1 inspirational boost spell, +1 base, +1 song of the heart feat, +1 MW natural horn from song& silence, +1 badge of valor), then use dragonfire inspiration to give everyone +5d6 fire damage (or change that to some other element based on your dragon heritage and a feat), then use doomspeak on someone. Each of these will use a daily use of bard song. The buffs both take 2 full rounds to set up, and last 5 rounds. The doomspeak is a standard action. It only lasts one round, though, so I think doomspeak is total crap. I would rather put up the buffs, kick in the door, and cut people with a big axe.

[edit]
Sublime Chord entry is much harder than I thought. Requires 3rd level spells and 13 ranks in a few skills. Just go 3 paladin of tyranny/4 hexblade/7 Suel Arcanamach/5 abjurant champion/1 spellsword, but not necessarily in that order (4 paladin/3 hex/4suel/5 abjurant/1 spellsowrd, finish with more suel).

That's a 20th level build, with gishness coming online at level 10. First good spells come at level 8/9.

Over 20 levels, you get -30% ASF, which lets you wear mithril full plate and still cast spells, which is kinda nice. Abjurant Champion adds its level to AC bonus to abjurations you cast on yourself, so a shield spell you put up gives you +9 shield bonus to AC. Just wear a buckler for the armor bonuses, like fortification. +1 heavy fortification buckler is a pretty solid investment for any character, but especially melee.

[Kefkafreak]

Bind Vestige + Improved Vestige, Bind Focalor for a -2 to all saves, 5' aura. (You could even give this to a familiar if you retrain its feats via psionics).

[Vemynal]

Thanks, I guess I'll have to look the "Suel Arcanamach" up

Ok, the Dark Companion is perfect then. I can theme it as the source of power he's drawing from and theme the binder feats around the presence of the Dark Companion. Thats a total -6 to saves at level 7 so thats perfect and I'm happy.
And thats not even including the Hex/Curse/Whatever ability of the Hexblade.

So I want to keep the Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4 with the 2 Binder feats mentioned above.


But stepping away from reducing saves, is there a way to stack fear effects on opponents or to reduce their AC or stats in some manner?

Or reducing their Saves further works well if thats all we can extend in this character.

[faceroll]

Fear's pretty easy. Just google around; there are plenty of fear-centric builds.

[dextercorvia]

The Unseelie Fey template penalizes saves of adjacent creatures.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Needs more Unseelie Fey.


I'll be over here, shaking a tiny fist at swordsages.

[Talya]

The doomspeak is a standard action. It only lasts one round, though, so I think doomspeak is total crap. I would rather put up the buffs, kick in the door, and cut people with a big axe.



That one round lasts from the end of the turn you use it, to the end of your next turn. Your target is at -10 to just about everything during that turn. They are significantly less of a threat to everyone, and they are extremely easy to bring down.

How, exactly, are they going to pass the save on your next action the following round if they are at -10 to everything? Better hope for a natural 20, or they are going to be all yours.

Admittedly, if you only have 1 daily use of bardic music, it's less impressive. Even whe you have lots of daily uses, it's an ability to use against a BBEG, or his lieutennants...for boss fights. Since it is for an NPC villain, it's ideal to use against PCs, who definitely qualify as "bosses" of a sort. It's how you afflict them with a terrible disease or curse, or if you're really feeling nasty, force the other party members to start gathering diamond dust. But make no mistake about it...Doomspeak is not susceptible to SR, it is not mind affecting so can't be thwarted by mind blank, and it will help you utterly defeat one enemy with ease.

[Vemynal]

Ok, here is what I'm going to do:
Human
Bard 1 / Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Hexblade 4/ Sublime Chord 10

Since I'm the DM and its a reoccurring NPC BBG Lieutenant I am going to remove the paladin and Hexblade casting and replace it with Bard casting from the ground up.

So when he's level 8 and has 1 level of Bard he'll have spell casting as an 8th level Bard, which will then advance into Sublime Chord (which is probably as high as he gets before he gets killed)

Theme: Dark companion & Vestige as the dark power that allows him to drain away at the strength of others (not literally their strength stat)

Bardic Music uses (which he will only have one of until he enters Sublime Chord) will be themed as him speaking in utterances only intelligible to himself

Feats: Doomspeak, Bind Vestige, Improved Vestige (to Bind Focalor)


So I can have 4 more feats! any suggestions?

(Since I'm homebrewing his spells I'd prefer to keep strictly by the book with everything else)

[faceroll]

That one round lasts from the end of the turn you use it, to the end of your next turn. Your target is at -10 to just about everything during that turn. They are significantly less of a threat to everyone, and they are extremely easy to bring down.

How, exactly, are they going to pass the save on your next action the following round if they are at -10 to everything? Better hope for a natural 20, or they are going to be all yours.

Admittedly, if you only have 1 daily use of bardic music, it's less impressive. Even whe you have lots of daily uses, it's an ability to use against a BBEG, or his lieutennants...for boss fights. Since it is for an NPC villain, it's ideal to use against PCs, who definitely qualify as "bosses" of a sort. It's how you afflict them with a terrible disease or curse, or if you're really feeling nasty, force the other party members to start gathering diamond dust. But make no mistake about it...Doomspeak is not susceptible to SR, it is not mind affecting so can't be thwarted by mind blank, and it will help you utterly defeat one enemy with ease.

I could definitely see putting it on minions in a boss encounter (cultists chanting curses at PCs, for instance), or on a cohort, or on a 5th wheel bard. But not on a gish, who is already kind of at action disadvantage.

[edit]
Oh, wow oh wow, didn't realize this was for an NPC. My bad. :smallfrown:

[Coidzor]

Dragonfire Inspiration lets him bathe his blade(and the weapons of any of his allies) in fire instead of standard Inspire Courage. For an additional feat of draconic heritage he can do other energy types.

Chaos Music lets 4 of his non-bard levels count as progressing his bard level for the strength of his bardic music. Here there be Dragon Material though, and I believe it requires a chaotic alignment and gives an aura of chaos.

Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence, and gives a +1 to the numeric bonuses granted by bardic music. Like Inspire Courage.

Extra Music gives ~4 more uses of bardic music.

Melodic Casting, I believe, allows one to cast while keeping bardic music up. So a warforged/necropolitan bard could keep it up all day and all night and not care that it only had one use a day. Also saves on needing ranks in concentration. Is from Complete Mage.

Subsonics lets one bardic music without being heard.

For more thoughts on that angle, the handbook on inspire courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

I'd recommend against Sublime Chord 10, for a gish though. IIRC, Virtuoso is stronger for a gishy base in terms of BAB/HD and progresses both bardic music and the Sublime Chord's casting. All else being equal, Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 would be better just for the songs, since the Virtuoso can inspire any allies he has to enter into a rage as a barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9309630#post9309630).

[Optimator]

Doomspeak is great, and gets considerably better if Arcane Spellsurge is used. Fire off spells AND buff/debuff.

[Devmaar]

Ok, here is what I'm going to do:
Human
Bard 1 / Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Hexblade 4/ Sublime Chord 10


Doesn't meet the skill reqs for Sublime Chord unless you fiat it

[Grendus]

Doesn't meet the skill reqs for Sublime Chord unless you fiat it

Take Able Learner as your first level feat, problem solved.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Able Learner as your first level feat, problem solved.

That won't help you meet the spellcasting prerequisite.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I think Inspire Awe (Dragon Magic) is what you're looking for :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

That won't help you meet the spellcasting prerequisite.

Or the ranks. SC requires 2 skills at 13 ranks. You can only get 13 ranks as a 10 HD character, even if you have all the skill points in the world. You can't even Favored/Primary Contact it, because there are 2 skills involved. The only early entry tricks that would work would be the Polymorph Dusk Giant + Psychic Reformation or the Inspire Greatness + Psychic Reformation one.

He did fiat the casting though, by effectively making Pally of Tyranny and Hexblade into +1 arcane caster PrCs.

My question is: what do you hope to gain out of this? You walk up to one of your PCs, give him a -12 on his fort save, and then cast Finger of Death. He's dead. Weee...not really.

[Silva Stormrage]

I am surprised no one has mentioned soul eater in this thread yet. Basically take a gish build that can qualify (Somewhat difficult though you could handwave some of the random prerequisites like can't be humanoid.) A one level dip allows you to deal a negative level each time you hit someone with a natural weapon. Give him a necrotic weapon of his choice and he now inflicts 1 negative level per hit. Each negative level gives -1 to saving throws and almsot all rolls really and deals 5 damage.

Good feats
Life Drain (Libris Mortis): makes the damage per negative level 5 + charisma modifier.
Spell Drain (Libris Mortis): Each time you drain a spell with a negative level from a caster you can now cast that spell.

Also as a side note my Soul Devourer base class is an invocation using class that drains souls. If you are fine with homebrew.