[PF] Synthesist questions

[Stone Heart]

I am aware that the Synthesist is a very problematic class, but I have a question regarding it.

The Eidolon does not get any feats of its own, but I was wondering if anyone knew how much the synthesists cross over for that. Like can the synthesist take power attack and use it when in Eidolon form?

And what of proficiencies? I know he won't be able to wear armor, but could he use any weapons that the Synthesist could use?

[Coidzor]

The brief consensus I saw when I created a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214203) a few days back because people wanted to discuss whether they were completely and utterly broken seemed to be yes, as it's a blended creature.

[Starbuck_II]

I am aware that the Synthesist is a very problematic class, but I have a question regarding it.

The Eidolon does not get any feats of its own, but I was wondering if anyone knew how much the synthesists cross over for that. Like can the synthesist take power attack and use it when in Eidolon form?

And what of proficiencies? I know he won't be able to wear armor, but could he use any weapons that the Synthesist could use?

Yes, you can use all of your own gear/feats. Thus you have to take power attack to use it.

A Synthesist's eidolon isn't really a creature: just biotic suit. That is why there are no feats, no mental stats, nothing but physical.

[Stone Heart]

Alright, that should be enough for my dm I think. Thanks.

[Stone Heart]

And Fantastic, I might have to change the character making this moot. rolling 3d6 for stats I managed to get stats that even if I put the lowest stats into my physical scores, its still better than the Eidolons. Meaning I am weakened by summoning the eidolon.

Any suggestions? the only thing thats set in stone now is the numbers for my stats, I can rearrange them as I wish.

[Coidzor]

Well, I guess you could make a more standard gish instead or Magus it up?

What are your numbers?

[Stone Heart]

18, 17, 16, 16, 15, 15.

We don't use Gishs, though I could use the Magus. Do you think this stat spread would be fitting for it? More suggestions are welcome, I am all ears right now.

[MeeposFire]

18, 17, 16, 16, 15, 15.

We don't use Gishs, though I could use the Magus. Do you think this stat spread would be fitting for it? More suggestions are welcome, I am all ears right now.

With a stat spread like that the question is what would not be a good choice.

Magus would work fine with that. Put the 18, 17, and 16s in Int, Con, and dex/str and put the 15s in wis and cha and go to town.

[Larpus]

Also, the numbers for the Eidolon are only low on the first few levels, if you truly pump it out, it gets fairly respectable at lvl5 and amazing at 8, so if you choose the Synthesist for concept, because it seemed cool or anything besides "to have big numbers", then go for it and only use the Summon Monster ability (which is pretty amazing for Summoners from level 1) for the first few levels and focus your Eidolon form into utility.

Just to show some numbers, supposing you use all your evolution points on stats (and Large at level 8), at level 5 you can get something like 22/18/14 (biped) or 20/20/14 (quad) for Str/Dex/Con, +6 AC with no check penalty and +2 on all saves (making your bad saves look like good saves). At level 8 you can get 31/17/18 (biped) or 29/17/18 (quad), +6 AC, the +2 on saves and Dimension Door as spell-like.

And on top of that all the HP, spellcasting, the bumped Summon Monster and easy access to reach (biped) or pounce (quad).

EDIT: Nice stats, and as Meepos said it goes well with nearly anything. I would also like to propose the Alchemist (Vivisectionist) as an often overlooked option, it's basically a Rogue with a buff-themed half-spellcasting, from some calculations it can quite easily out-damage the Magus as long as he can get Sneak Full Attacks going (better yet, done with natural weapons, so no BAB deduction on further attacks and you have 3 of them starting at level 2).

[Stone Heart]

That is a very good point, I had been intending to make it large and later huge. The Character concept was to have a character who transformed into an Angel, so I would have to spend some points on working towards that (mostly just wings, a lot of the rest would be cosmetic) but you bring up some very good points. Also I was gonna be a half elf, and use their favored class alternate bonus for 1/4 evolution point per level.

This game is supposed to reach level 20, and we are starting at 1, so I got time to plan this out more.

[MeeposFire]

Also, the numbers for the Eidolon are only low on the first few levels, if you truly pump it out, it gets fairly respectable at lvl5 and amazing at 8, so if you choose the Synthesist for concept, because it seemed cool or anything besides "to have big numbers", then go for it and only use the Summon Monster ability (which is pretty amazing for Summoners from level 1) for the first few levels and focus your Eidolon form into utility.

Just to show some numbers, supposing you use all your evolution points on stats (and Large at level 8), at level 5 you can get something like 22/18/14 (biped) or 20/20/14 (quad) for Str/Dex/Con, +6 AC with no check penalty and +2 on all saves (making your bad saves look like good saves). At level 8 you can get 31/17/18 (biped) or 29/17/18 (quad), +6 AC, the +2 on saves and Dimension Door as spell-like.

And on top of that all the HP, spellcasting, the bumped Summon Monster and easy access to reach (biped) or pounce (quad).

EDIT: Nice stats, and as Meepos said it goes well with nearly anything. I would also like to propose the Alchemist (Vivisectionist) as an often overlooked option, it's basically a Rogue with a buff-themed half-spellcasting, from some calculations it can quite easily out-damage the Magus as long as he can get Sneak Full Attacks going (better yet, done with natural weapons, so no BAB deduction on further attacks and you have 3 of them starting at level 2).

Yea the alchemist should be able to out damage the magus as long as you don't meet an enemy immune to SA. Alchemist can be fun for sure.

[Larpus]

Btw, unless your DM is found of very big empty rooms, I'd advise against actually getting the Huge evolution, relying on Enlarge Person instead to make yourself huge, otherwise if your group happen to be on a small space you won't be able to Reduce yourself back to medium so you can fit (without losing your muscle coating).

EDIT: @MeeposFire

True that, but thankfully Paizo greatly diminished the amount of crit-immune creatures, there are only like 4 types of creatures that are immune now (and not only Undead is not one of them, but one of such types is Incorporeal, so if you can have a Ghost Touch enchant it's 3 types now), the rest are only immune if the creature's specific description says so (and glazing over the Bestiary tells me there aren't that many specifically immune).

[MeeposFire]

Btw, unless your DM is found of very big empty rooms, I'd advise against actually getting the Huge evolution, relying on Enlarge Person instead to make yourself huge, otherwise if your group happen to be on a small space you won't be able to Reduce yourself back to medium so you can fit (without losing your muscle coating).

EDIT: @MeeposFire

True that, but thankfully Paizo greatly diminished the amount of crit-immune creatures, there are only like 4 types of creatures that are immune now (and not only Undead is not one of them, but one of such types is Incorporeal, so if you can have a Ghost Touch enchant it's 3 types now), the rest are only immune if the creature's specific description says so (and glazing over the Bestiary tells me there aren't that many specifically immune).

Oh I know I just figured it was a good caveat to post.

By the way I hate the incorpereal rule. I think it would be more consistant if they were crittable and SA vulnerable but they took 1/2 damage while ghost touch would allow for full damage. It is obvious that since ghost touch allows it to work that they have weak spots so why do you need a ghost touch weapon since you can obviously hit it anyway (for instance let us say a human ghost and you strike its head and this is its crit or SA spot. Right now if you have a non-ghost touch weapon this attack hits the spot but can only deal normal damage but with a ghost touchh weapon you deal all the damage but you hit the same weak spot. Makes no sense). A topic for another thread though.

[panaikhan]

I ran into this problem a while ago.
According to the FAQ, Enlarge / Reduce person doesn't work on an Eidolon Synthesist

Clarification:
Enlarge/Reduce says 'self'. Summoner is now an 'outsider' so it doesn't work.

[grarrrg]

I am aware that the Synthesist is a very problematic class, but I have a question regarding it.

The Eidolon does not get any feats of its own, but I was wondering if anyone knew how much the synthesists cross over for that. Like can the synthesist take power attack and use it when in Eidolon form?

And what of proficiencies? I know he won't be able to wear armor, but could he use any weapons that the Synthesist could use?

The simplest explaination is to think of a Synthesist as a (3.5) Wildshaped Druid.
You are still 'you' for most intents and purposes.

Regarding your awsome stats: Your Eidolon-Form still gets a +Str/Dex boost ever few levels, and still gets a bonus Stat point every few levels, so it shouldn't take long for it to exceed your base scores.
Just make sure to spend all of 'your' bonus Stat points on Mental stats.

And you can freely change your Evolutions from level to level, so do what other people have said and make it a 'Skill-dolon' form for the first couple levels.

[Larpus]

Oh I know I just figured it was a good caveat to post.

By the way I hate the incorpereal rule. I think it would be more consistant if they were crittable and SA vulnerable but they took 1/2 damage while ghost touch would allow for full damage. It is obvious that since ghost touch allows it to work that they have weak spots so why do you need a ghost touch weapon since you can obviously hit it anyway (for instance let us say a human ghost and you strike its head and this is its crit or SA spot. Right now if you have a non-ghost touch weapon this attack hits the spot but can only deal normal damage but with a ghost touchh weapon you deal all the damage but you hit the same weak spot. Makes no sense). A topic for another thread though.
Agreed, it seems like some sort of afterthought or designer disagreement.

It can be sort of explained that since you can't deal full damage without ghost touch, then you also can't fully damage the weak spot, kinda like the difference between twisting a member and breaking it.

But explaining it like this is like explaining a plothole in a movie: you can do it to make some sense out of it, but you shouldn't have to even bother with it.


I ran into this problem a while ago.
According to the FAQ, Enlarge / Reduce person doesn't work on an Eidolon Synthesist

Clarification:
Enlarge/Reduce says 'self'. Summoner is now an 'outsider' so it doesn't work.
That is very true, check this with your DM beforehand, but this FAQ statement is completely weird and against the very design of the Summoner, since it's whole spell listis geared to support his Eidolon and then, suddenly, you have two alien spells on the list. Not only that, but if you can't Enlarge/Reduce your Eidolon, Share Spells make absolutely no sense since Reduce/Enlarge is the only spell that would benefit from it (or so I remember).

[Curious]

Also, you could boost your mental stats even further by being Venerable, which would give you a -6 to all physical stats in return for a +3 to all mental stats.

[stack]

The FAQ has also changed, unless they changed it back. I think they now say that enlarge person does work when joined. Which was what I had always assumed. I know the natural attack/manufactured attack stacking changed. Basically, they needed a chart and an example build, not a few paragraphs. I get the sense Paizo doesn't know what they intended, much less wrote for the archetype.

[Paul H]

Hi

Stack is right. You can 'Share' spells with your Eidolon, Synthesist or not, so yes, Enlarge/Reduce Person works.

As does Shield etc. Only caveat is that the spells MUST be on the Summoner list. (So no multicalssing & using Cleric spells this way)

Don't forget, Synthesist isn't just the stats, it's the other things, like Nat Armour, Extra Arms, , Fly, etc too.

The Angel concept is an easy one to fulfill. Med sized Biped, Wings, DR 10/Evil. Energy Resistances/Immunities. All listed Evolutions in APG.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: And I've just checked, you can get iterative attacks with manufactured weapons with your extra arms (as Marilith). Still, don't think you can exceed the max attacks eidolon is allowed.

[Curious]

Edit: And I've just checked, you can get iterative attacks with manufactured weapons with your extra arms (as Marilith). Still, don't think you can exceed the max attacks eidolon is allowed.

No, max attacks only applies to natural weapons. You can get as many attacks as you like with manufactured weapons.

[Paul H]

No, max attacks only applies to natural weapons. You can get as many attacks as you like with manufactured weapons.

Hi

OOh - now that's broken! :smalleek:

7th level, 4 extra arms (4 Evo Points), BAB +6. So 12 attacks/rnd with TWF, or 6 attacks/rnd with 2H weapons..... And it just get worse & worse with Improved TWF and even more arms?

Thanks
Paul H

[stack]

Magic weapons get REALLY expensive when you need twelve, same issue as the standard summoner with a kali eidolon. Also, any DR starts to hurt fast.

[Coidzor]

And it just get worse & worse with Improved TWF and even more arms?

To the point where you'd basically have to use vendor trash magical arms to arm it and lose out on a significant amount of any other loot the party brought in other than the vendor trash weapons.

[Paul H]

Hi

Erm. Sorry, Wrong.

Arcane Strike makes any attacks I make count as magical for DR purposes. Also adds damage based on CL.

Thanks
Paul H

[MeeposFire]

Hi

Erm. Sorry, Wrong.

Arcane Strike makes any attacks I make count as magical for DR purposes. Also adds damage based on CL.

Thanks
Paul H

I hope you can still pierce all the other DR types. It still is expnsive.

This style of build still is running into the two weapon fighting problem of losing so much for moving 10 feet or more. Getting all the reach beneifts help though.

[Curious]

I hope you can still pierce all the other DR types. It still is expnsive.

This style of build still is running into the two weapon fighting problem of losing so much for moving 10 feet or more. Getting all the reach beneifts help though.

Experimental Spellcaster. Accelerate. Extra move action. Problem solved.

[panaikhan]

No, max attacks only applies to natural weapons. You can get as many attacks as you like with manufactured weapons.

But you can't mix the two.
The Synthesist is STILL bound by the max attacks of the Eidolon whilst joined.

[Curious]

But you can't mix the two.
The Synthesist is STILL bound by the max attacks of the Eidolon whilst joined.

And how is that? Max attacks applies to the Eidolons natural weapons. Swords are not natural weapons.

[stack]

There was a point where the faq said that the eidolon attack cap was used for both manufactured and natural attacks for the synthesist. This was ridiculous as it never worked that way for a regular eidolon. The faq has since been changed (unless they changed it again).

Oddly, the faq also allowed for the summoner to make attacks from within the eidolon, which I thought was weird.

In short, everything is in flux until an official, published errata, which won't actually tell you everything you need anyway. Not been impressed with paizo's handling of this.

[Madwand99]

Where is this FAQ that keeps getting mentioned? I've been trying to Google it for a couple days now and no luck.

[Barstro]

Where is this FAQ that keeps getting mentioned? I've been trying to Google it for a couple days now and no luck.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz

Keep in mind that this FAQ, at least as far as Sythnesists go, is illogical and sometimes contradicts PC descriptions and logic. Use the search tool to find other Sythesist Forum posts from me an others ranting about how foolish the FAQ was/is. It's probably better in the short run to just come to an agreement with your DM and other players about how to handle certain situations (and be prepared to reverse your rulings later as the game progresses).

[stack]

Here it is. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obd)

[Stone Heart]

Thank you for all the suggestions, I have decided to play as the Synthesist.

One question though, how do the saving throws work? It does not mention if I replace my saving throws or not, whats the word on this?

[MeeposFire]

Thank you for all the suggestions, I have decided to play as the Synthesist.

One question though, how do the saving throws work? It does not mention if I replace my saving throws or not, whats the word on this?

You use your saving throws modified by ability scores. Your reflex and fort saves likely change due to the ability score changes you get from your eidolon but your will remain the same.

[panaikhan]

And how is that? Max attacks applies to the Eidolons natural weapons. Swords are not natural weapons.

The last time I looked at the FAQ, it stated that the Synthesist may use weapons in addition to the Eidolon's natural attacks, but he was still bound by the Eidolon's maximum.

Edit: They've really nerfed this. The Summoner cannot do anything the Eidolon hasn't got 'appendages' for, and STILL is limited to the Eidolon's maximum number of attacks. So no casting spells as a quadruped or serpentine unless you have arm evolutions...

[MeeposFire]

The last time I looked at the FAQ, it stated that the Synthesist may use weapons in addition to the Eidolon's natural attacks, but he was still bound by the Eidolon's maximum.

Edit: They've really nerfed this. The Summoner cannot do anything the Eidolon hasn't got 'appendages' for, and STILL is limited to the Eidolon's maximum number of attacks. So no casting spells as a quadruped or serpentine unless you have arm evolutions...

The FAQ was wrong and if I recall changed because they realized that they can't read their own rules without people helping them out...

The natural attack limit applies to only natural attacks and I am not sure how they ever messed up in the first place.

[Larpus]

The last time I looked at the FAQ, it stated that the Synthesist may use weapons in addition to the Eidolon's natural attacks, but he was still bound by the Eidolon's maximum.

Edit: They've really nerfed this. The Summoner cannot do anything the Eidolon hasn't got 'appendages' for, and STILL is limited to the Eidolon's maximum number of attacks. So no casting spells as a quadruped or serpentine unless you have arm evolutions...
The casting part seems absolute bogus, you can access your gear, so why wouldn't you be able to cast and simply deliver the spells through the Eidolon's appendages? You'd still provoke an AoO (since you as the mind, is not paying attention to combat, leaving your fused body open to attacks).

The weapon vs. natural attacks also seem nonsensical as it doesn't affect a normal Eidolon, but I do have to agree that you attacking with your own weapon while fused sounded very questionable (and it's not like it would be any better than using the Eidolon's stats for that).

These can be seen as balancing points...but they just make no sense and, aside from that multiclassing stinky cheese, isn't any more powerful than a normal Summoner and its Eidolon.

[Stone Heart]

I'm sorry I keep asking questions about such a problematic class, but whats the difference between the Synthesists Split forms and Twin Eidolon abilities? It says that Both have the same evolutions. Is it that we are twin eidolons, or are we just me being myself with those evolutions and him being an eidolon with those?

[Larpus]

I'm sorry I keep asking questions about such a problematic class, but whats the difference between the Synthesists Split forms and Twin Eidolon abilities? It says that Both have the same evolutions. Is it that we are twin eidolons, or are we just me being myself with those evolutions and him being an eidolon with those?
Split Forms make you and your Eidolon act as separate entities, just like a normal Summoner for the duration (and in such situation your Eidolon gets feats, skills and mental stats for the duration).

Twin Eidolon makes you transform into an exact copy of your Eidolon except for mental stats (and possibly the extra feats from HD); for a Synthesist using Split Forms it means that there are essentially two Eidolons for the duration; but under normal conditions it sounds nearly useless except for the fact that it doesn't mention at any moment that you need your Eidolon summoned, so you can use it if for whatever reason you can't/don't want to use your actual Eidolon.