Yet another "Give Me Advice" thread.

[sonofzeal]

Goal
Hold a defensive position against waves of undead, including at least one Vampire of considerable power. We know they'll attack us, we have a McGuffin they need to destroy the world. Again. It's a long story.


Field of Battle
One to four hours to prepare (unknown which). Elaborate sewer system, we can probably block off several tunnels if necessary. Non-magical resources are plentiful, as is non-expert manpower.


Limitations
There are vampires in a sort of "enemy of my enemy" truce with us, so that could be problematic.


My Character
Human Cleric 6 / Prestige Paladin 3 / Fist of Raziel 3

- 20 turning attempts, can use "turning as damage" from CDiv for 12d6 nukes
- DMM: Quicken. Not persist, unless there's a way I can pick that up on the fly.
- 10th lvl Cleric casting, Sun and Plant domains, anemic save DC though.
- Solid unbuffed melee power
- 30+ vials of Holy Water, 36 charges on a Wand of Lesser Vigor.


Allies
Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian (can be counted on for violence but little else)
Dwarven Wizard (can't be counted on for anything, but may do something interesting)
Half-Fae Wizard/Bard/UltimateMagus (can't be counted on for anything, but may do something interesting)
Human Favoured Soul (I'm not certain he's even on our team at this point)



So... uh, yeah. Unreliable allies, "friendly" vampires that are going to cut into my ability to straight-up nuke the enemy, and I lack 6th lvl spells. I could really use some help here guys, can anyone point out awesome Cleric spells I may have missed?

So far I have Spikes (my weapon's wood, and it lasts hours), and Call Zelekhut (a CR 9 ally with good DR and fast healing for an hour sounds like a great deal). But Righteous Might isn't feasible in the confined space. I also suspect the fight is going to be a long battle of attrition, and I can't afford 1 round/lvl buffs in that circumstance.

Advice appreciated!

[Icestorm245]

Tell your "freindly" vampire allies to only come out when it's safe to do so; aka, nuke the hell out of the undead with what seems to be your strongest weapon regardless of whatever else is going on. If they refuse, turn anyway. It's their own fault if they get blown up. Divine Power is a good spell, but use it during the end of combat when you can't do anything else but smack stuff. Flame Strike is also good. You mentioned you don't have 6th level spells, so I'm assuming you have 5th and under. If you don't... ouch.

[sonofzeal]

Tell your "freindly" vampire allies to only come out when it's safe to do so; aka, nuke the hell out of the undead with what seems to be your strongest weapon regardless of whatever else is going on. If they refuse, turn anyway. It's their own fault if they get blown up. Divine Power is a good spell, but use it during the end of combat when you can't do anything else but smack stuff. Flame Strike is also good. You mentioned you don't have 6th level spells, so I'm assuming you have 5th and under. If you don't... ouch.
- Flame Strike is good, but my DCs for it are low. I have better damage and DC on the turn-nuke.

- Given my build, I have full BAB for half my career and Divine Power really doesn't do that much for me since its Str boost is merely "enhancement". Divine Favour is better for me, and it's a lvl 1 spell.

[sonofzeal]

How would "Light of Wisdom" or "Light of Purity" from CChamp interact with the "Turning as damage" variant from CDiv?

And is there any way to sneak DMM:Persist in, with a permissive DM?

[MesiDoomstalker]

How would "Light of Wisdom" or "Light of Purity" from CChamp interact with the "Turning as damage" variant from CDiv?

And is there any way to sneak DMM:Persist in, with a permissive DM?

Retrain your feats and/or take flaws?

[sonofzeal]

Retrain your feats and/or take flaws?
...actually, I do have at least one feat I never spent! Hmm! I'd need a second though... any way to retrain a feat inside two hours?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Do those wizards in your party have Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)? Can they each get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell? Tell your enemies thanks for the free undead horde!

[sonofzeal]

Do those wizards in your party have Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)? Can they each get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell? Tell your enemies thanks for the free undead horde!
Yes, no, and lol.

[tyckspoon]

Do you know what kinds of undead you'll be dealing with aside from the vampire? Waves of mindless skeletons and zombies call for different tactics from intelligent undead like wights and ghouls, and the threat of incorporeals or ethereals (shadows/allips/ghosts/vampire spawn/other vampires) is a different problem altogether.

That said- Spell Compendium has a few nice Wall spells you might want to look into. Wall of (Alignment) at 4th level lasts 10 min/level, and anything of (opposed Alignment) has to make a will save to cross it. That should be useful for breaking up incoming waves and giving your side more time to deal with attackers. Wall of Light lasts min/level and is a straight up Line of Sight blocker, with the useful attribute that the caster can still see through it. Wall of Sand is another cute 4th level- Concentration + rnd/level duration, and anything that goes inside it is pretty well stuck (blinded, deafened, and requires a full-round action + Strength check to move.) It's a great setup for the rest of your party if they have any decent ranged capability.

If you could get a day or two to prep instead of a couple hours, I'd suggest charging some stuff with Sacred Object (Complete Champ), so you'd have some pre-loaded nova damage to deploy if any special/commander-type undead show up that you really want to get read of post-haste. As is.. *shrug* Does your deity have any other Domains that would be more useful to you than Plant, either in spell options or granted power? It sounds like you expect to have time to redo your spell selection, so you could use Domain Substitution (also C. Champion, I think) to grab a different one.

Last note: Wall of Fire is a pretty awesome spell for this kind of thing, if any of your arcane casters have it.

[sonofzeal]

Do you know what kinds of undead you'll be dealing with aside from the vampire? Waves of mindless skeletons and zombies call for different tactics from intelligent undead like wights and ghouls, and the threat of incorporeals or ethereals (shadows/allips/ghosts/vampire spawn/other vampires) is a different problem altogether.
My guess is "a tone of everything". Only thing we know for certain is a lot of zombies, a good number of vampires, and no Corpse Gatherers (we fought a modified one earlier as a plot monster, and the DM assures us there's none in the approaching horde).

I'll look into Wall spells though, thanks!

[sonofzeal]

Alright, so apparently I CAN get Persist Spell. Awesome!

To try and keep from totally outshining the rest of the party, I'm going to try and focus on group buffs for it. I can only persist three. Currently, I'm looking at "Mass Shield of Faith", "Righteous Wrath of the Faithful", and... either "Mass Lesser Vigor" or "Positive Energy Aura". The former would be +1 hp a round for everyone all the time; the latter would be +4 hp a round for everyone within 10' of me, excluding myself (and 2 damage per round against undead next to me). It's a tough call, imo.

Any other spells that might be better?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Alright, so apparently I CAN get Persist Spell. Awesome!

To try and keep from totally outshining the rest of the party, I'm going to try and focus on group buffs for it. I can only persist three. Currently, I'm looking at "Mass Shield of Faith", "Righteous Wrath of the Faithful", and... either "Mass Lesser Vigor" or "Positive Energy Aura". The former would be +1 hp a round for everyone all the time; the latter would be +4 hp a round for everyone within 10' of me, excluding myself (and 2 damage per round against undead next to me). It's a tough call, imo.

Any other spells that might be better?

Based on your team, the only one who will help with small amounts of HP per round is the Fighter/Barb who will probably be close to you anyway. So, Positive Energy Aura will probably be better as its offensive and supportive. Though you'll be missing out unfortunatly.

[Geigan]

Do any of your other party members have deflection to AC in any form already? If they have any then I'd probably get both positive energy aura and mass lesser vigor as the latter would help your undead buddies stay alive as well and positive energy aura will definitely tear into those undead. If you just get one of the two healing persists get the positive energy aura and wade into those waves with your AC as high as it can go to just lay waste to as many as possible. A continuous damage aura is gravy versus hordes.

[tyckspoon]

I'm a fan of (Mass) Conviction, but at 10 min/level the duration on that is long enough that you probably don't need to Persist it.. just Extend it or even re-cast it if the adventuring day goes long enough that you really need it. Recitation is pretty nifty- Luck bonus to saves/AC/attacks, so it stacks with pretty much everything, and it's especially nice if you can convince everybody to convert to your god- but it's definitely lower priority than things like Righteous Wrath.

[sonofzeal]

Based on your team, the only one who will help with small amounts of HP per round is the Fighter/Barb who will probably be close to you anyway. So, Positive Energy Aura will probably be better as its offensive and supportive. Though you'll be missing out unfortunatly.
Agreed. Sounds like a plan.


Do any of your other party members have deflection to AC in any form already?
Only a +1. I have a permanent Magic Circle Against Evil, which gives a +2 for everyone within 10 feet of me, but Mass Shield of Faith will make that +4 even if they go further from me, so that seems worth it.


I'm a fan of (Mass) Conviction, but at 10 min/level the duration on that is long enough that you probably don't need to Persist it.. just Extend it or even re-cast it if the adventuring day goes long enough that you really need it. Recitation is pretty nifty- Luck bonus to saves/AC/attacks, so it stacks with pretty much everything, and it's especially nice if you can convince everybody to convert to your god- but it's definitely lower priority than things like Righteous Wrath.
+4 Saves is nice, but I'm expecting more beatstick type combat. Recitation is definitely on my prepped list, but it's one best cast in combat anyway.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

What exactly are your feats?

[sonofzeal]

What exactly are your feats?
Quicken Spell
DMM
Mounted Combat (necessary for Prestige Paladin)
Power Attack
Emerald Razor
Knight of the Stars (necessary for Fist of Raziel)
????
????

I'm planning to put Extend Spell and Persist Spell in the two open slots. Emerald Razor Power Attack Smite while Spikes is active on my Undead Bane Scythe? Awesomeness. Once per fight, sure, but awesomeness.

[Zaq]

Quicken Spell
DMM
Mounted Combat (necessary for Prestige Paladin)
Power Attack
Emerald Razor
Knight of the Stars (necessary for Fist of Raziel)
????
????

I'm planning to put Extend Spell and Persist Spell in the two open slots. Emerald Razor Power Attack Smite while Spikes is active on my Undead Bane Scythe? Awesomeness. Once per fight, sure, but awesomeness.

Strictly speaking, DMM only applies to one metamagic feat. I take it you're retraining or something to apply it to Persist instead of to Quicken? Or do you houserule that it applies to everything?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Suggestion: Unless you have to keep your one of your domains for something you can use the change domain spell to get the planning domain for 24 hours which gives you extend for free, letting you get Persist and DMM Persist.

[sonofzeal]

Strictly speaking, DMM only applies to one metamagic feat. I take it you're retraining or something to apply it to Persist instead of to Quicken? Or do you houserule that it applies to everything?
The DM's okay with me retraining it. I'm left with a dummy Quicken, but that's okay.

[King Atticus]

- 20 turning attempts, can use "turning as damage" from CDiv for 12d6 nukes
- DMM: Quicken. Not persist, unless there's a way I can pick that up on the fly.



Alright, so apparently I CAN get Persist Spell. Awesome!


I might be misunderstanding you but are you going too DMM that persist?
Isn't that throwing away your most powerful combat option? I'm not sure what the "turning as damage" does exactly but if you can use each turning attempt to do 12d6 why use 18 of them to persist spells?

Just curious

[sonofzeal]

I might be misunderstanding you but are you going too DMM that persist?
Isn't that throwing away your most powerful combat option? I'm not sure what the "turning as damage" does exactly but if you can use each turning attempt to do 12d6 why use 18 of them to persist spells?

Just curious
A valid point.

If I can pick up a Nightstick (possible), I'll be left with 6 to use as nukes. That should be enough.

Mostly, though, I want the fight to be more than just me sitting at the front spamming nukes while everyone else covers for me. I could do that, and do it well, and kill a nigh-endless swarm of zombies, but it's boring for me and frustrating for the DM and makes the rest of the party feel useless. And I'm built as a beatstick anyway, I may as well use my actions for beatsticking while everyone's all high on holy energy.

[King Atticus]

Fair enough

Is the rest of the party inept or just unreliable?

[Firechanter]

Note that for Persist Spell you first need Extend Spell as a prerequisite. That's pretty much the two feat slots you have left to assign.

Sorry, you know that yourself already.

No Extra Turning?

[Duskranger]

There is one spell somewhere (according to me it is book of exalted deeds) which turns you in a nightlight for 1 day/level. This hurts undead and especially vampires. It's not the best thing for your allies but hey.

Besides that luminous armor for the barbarian. If I'm correct it does not count as any armor ,but he will thank you for a fullplate which gives him +13AC. Especially against vampires and things that do level damage. And it's even better if it also works against touch, but not sure about that. It's a sanctified spell though so it costs you strength at the ending of it.

[Elboxo]

a lesser rod of chain spell and persisted Death Ward you'll keep your PC's happy: protection from negative energy. Vampires, necromancers, exploding zombies, and then their negative energy does nothing. Negative levels are a bitch for everyone, and at one per touch per creature attacking per round and they CAN be permanent if you don't recover properly.... Your friends will love ya for this

[Quirp]

There is one spell somewhere (according to me it is book of exalted deeds) which turns you in a nightlight for 1 day/level. This hurts undead and especially vampires. It's not the best thing for your allies but hey.


Are you talking about the 4th level spell Celestial Brilliance (BoED)? It lasts for one day per level, functions similiar to a daylight spell and deals 1d6 damage to all undead in range (no save, no SR). Several of those in every tunnel should cut down most undead hordes.

[Duskranger]

Are you talking about the 4th level spell Celestial Brilliance (BoED)? It lasts for one day per level, functions similiar to a daylight spell and deals 1d6 damage to all undead in range (no save, no SR). Several of those in every tunnel should cut down most undead hordes.

That one yes. And it's 1d6 every round. And it has a range of touch self. But the damage is in 120 feet around you. Everyone is protected in a tunnel. And even in night you can hurt them a lot

[Esgath]

Take some time to pick the right spells to persist: Persistable up to 9th level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0), Top 10 by Level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543), sorted by function. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7428.0)
Be aware though, that not all are cleric spells.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Are there any good Duration: Concentration spells on the Cleric list? Use one of those with Sonorous Hum (SpC I think) so you can keep that active while doing other stuff. You can use it with Detect Undead so you get a constantly updating tatical read out of the enemy approaching you. Or any other good conectration spells. I think Wall of sand is 10+concentration.

[TurkeyBlizzard]

That one yes. And it's 1d6 every round. And it has a range of touch self. But the damage is in 120 feet around you. Everyone is protected in a tunnel. And even in night you can hurt them a lot

In an undead campaign I played in, our DM ruled in favor of this spell working on an entire wall as we were defending from an undead horde.

Edit: Those vampires will be taking 2d6 damage/round

[sonofzeal]

The Fae Ultimate Magus has been casting Celestial Brilliance. I expect that'll be his big contribution to the fight, although he does have some moderate DPS spells. The other Wizard.... eh, not a clue. He has Command Undead, but mostly just plays squire to our NPC archer ally who's half his level. It's really strange, but at least he hasn't been impregnating himself via time travel like the Fae has...

[Essence_of_War]

but at least he hasn't been impregnating himself via time travel like the Fae has...

That is exceedingly peculiar.

[sonofzeal]

That is exceedingly peculiar.
It gets worse. He did it in midair, in full view of two versions of the whole party and an important NPC, and both copies were under Celestial Brilliance at the time so it was probably visible for miles around. It screwed with causality enough to cause a shockwave of unreality felt for hundreds of miles, and nearly unmade all creation in the process.

You can see why I'm not counting on him to save the day in the coming fight.

[Essence_of_War]

Given their previous predilections, I guess I'm just surprised that the character isn't actively engaged in making your lives MORE difficult.

[sonofzeal]

Given their previous predilections, I guess I'm just surprised that the character isn't actively engaged in making your lives MORE difficult.
No, he's just ADHD, as is the other Wizard. The ones actively making our lives more difficult would be the Favoured Soul and the Fighter/Barbarian, both of whom are entirely intent on striking deals with the evilest entities they can find, including the BBEG, if it benefits them in some way. The only saving grace is that they're both marginally committed to the continued existence of the universe, which puts them on our side. For now.

Of course, I'm one to talk. As the resident Paladin, I've taken it upon myself to rather antagonize several potential undead allies. I'm not the time to come out swinging, but it's been a factor.