Summoned monsters attack immediately?

[Elboxo]

So my DM is kinda frowning on me when i summon a fiendish ape as a standard action ( Rapid summoning ) and then have it summoned right behind an enemy, who is currently smacking our main melee, so it gets flanking bonus and a full attack....... I havn't seen any rules that show that a summoned monster can't immediately make a full attack ( It doesn't move at all ) after being summoned, but he seems to see this as a tad.... unfair? Maybe unrealistic? ( Maybe he thinks it shouldn't have time to react instantly and get a full attack in ? )
But out of interest does anyone know of any rules stating how long a summoned monster must wait to attack/can it full attack immediately?

[Elboxo]

Just noticed on the SRD it actually says, "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

So there really shouldn't be anything stopping me from ordering it to smack the crap out of the thing in front of it and it doing so..

[Psyren]

It can attack on your turn, but not full attack. Your DM's instincts are right.


(Creatures so summoned can only take a standard action in the round they are summoned.)

Edit for source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning)

[Elboxo]

Aaaaaaaah! Thank you! That's what i was looking for!
It's a small hindrance but i'm sure i'll get over it when i can summon tigers :D

[Psyren]

Aaaaaaaah! Thank you! That's what i was looking for!
It's a small hindrance but i'm sure i'll get over it when i can summon tigers :D

I don't see how - Pounce isn't a standard action either. It simply lets you full attack at the end of a charge. Charging is itself still a full-round action, so nothing you rapid summon can charge when it appears.

[Jopustopin]

I don't see how - Pounce isn't a standard action either. It simply lets you full attack at the end of a charge. Charging is itself still a full-round action, so nothing you rapid summon can charge when it appears.

Partial charges can occur on rounds where you are limited to only a standard action.

[Psyren]

Partial charges can occur on rounds where you are limited to only a standard action.

Ah, that's a clever way to let a rapid-summoned creature with pounce full attack. Though doing so would still require him to summon the critter 10 feet away from its target and have a clear path between them.

However, OP, I'd ask you to reconsider this strategy. Your disposable shock troops are no doubt upstaging the melee and your DM is already looking askance at the whole thing. Keeping this up will most likely lead to an arms race.

[Elboxo]

I meant it's a small hindrance because of the awesomeness of tigers... lol, the pounce is damn nice and yeah i know i can't pull it off immediately, but when it's there it'll be real shiny.
The summons don't quite outshine the melee, not yet, they are about equal, seeing as i only have apes or hypogriffs, but they are doing a decent amount of damage on their full attacks ( about 6d6 + 18 on a full attack from a fiendish ape ) [ Bonus damage is from Beckon the Frozen -Frostburn- and Augment Summon, if anyone was wondering] Just the measly bonus to hit is the real problem, at the moment i've been spawning them behind big bad creatures for flanking bonus and then a full attack, but if they can't attack immediately then i might spawn them behind the enemy and use the 10ft reach of the ape to my advantage, then full attack/move and full attack next round. Anyway thanks for the help finding that rule

[candycorn]

Ah, that's a clever way to let a rapid-summoned creature with pounce full attack. Though doing so would still require him to summon the critter 10 feet away from its target and have a clear path between them.

However, OP, I'd ask you to reconsider this strategy. Your disposable shock troops are no doubt upstaging the melee and your DM is already looking askance at the whole thing. Keeping this up will most likely lead to an arms race.

In some cases (if the summoned critter has more than 5 foot reach), you'll need to summon farther away. Since summons are close range, that involves getting rather close to the action.... Especially if you want to be behind the fighter, AND let it charge into a flank position.

If the enemy has reach, this also exposes the summon to an AoO.

[Elboxo]

In some cases (if the summoned critter has more than 5 foot reach), you'll need to summon farther away. Since summons are close range, that involves getting rather close to the action.... Especially if you want to be behind the fighter, AND let it charge into a flank position.

If the enemy has reach, this also exposes the summon to an AoO.

Right.. close range...
Well that shouldn't be too much of a problem, 90% of our encounters are us being attacked by something we didn't notice ( The highest spot in our party is like 6 because our rogue took a flaw to -4 to spot/listen and believed he shouldn't put ranks in it after that ) while we are in marching order, which usually has me middle/back so i'm ok for close range

[candycorn]

Right.. close range...
Well that shouldn't be too much of a problem, 90% of our encounters are us being attacked by something we didn't notice ( The highest spot in our party is like 6 because our rogue took a flaw to -4 to spot/listen and believed he shouldn't put ranks in it after that ) while we are in marching order, which usually has me middle/back so i'm ok for close range

I only say that because it creates the possibility that the monster can reach you without too much difficulty.

[Talya]

Interesting that the rapid-summoning variant summoned creatures are limited to a standard action on their first turn, whereas the normal summoned creatures gets to "act immediately on your turn." Nothing in the text of summon monster or summon nature's ally indicates that the fact that you just took a full round action to cast a spell prevents them from taking their full round action right there, either. In fact, it would seem to indicate otherwise.

[Urpriest]

Interesting that the rapid-summoning variant summoned creatures are limited to a standard action on their first turn, whereas the normal summoned creatures gets to "act immediately on your turn." Nothing in the text of summon monster or summon nature's ally indicates that the fact that you just took a full round action to cast a spell prevents them from taking their full round action right there, either. In fact, it would seem to indicate otherwise.

Isn't it a 1 round casting time, not a full-round action? Meaning it only goes off at the beginning of your next turn?

[Douglas]

Isn't it a 1 round casting time, not a full-round action? Meaning it only goes off at the beginning of your next turn?
Yeah, this isn't "save a move action but lose the summon's move", it's "get the monster a round early, but not at quite full effectiveness until the normal arrival time".

The limit is to reduce the impact of having the summon arrive an entire round earlier than it normally would.

[Cog]

Interesting that the rapid-summoning variant summoned creatures are limited to a standard action on their first turn, whereas the normal summoned creatures gets to "act immediately on your turn." Nothing in the text of summon monster or summon nature's ally indicates that the fact that you just took a full round action to cast a spell prevents them from taking their full round action right there, either. In fact, it would seem to indicate otherwise.
That's because normal summons are 1 round, not full round. They act immediately on your turn once they arrive... which is the turn after the turn you began the casting.

[creepy00]

OK, so now we have absolved that creatures summoned with feat Rapid Summoning only have one standard action when they appear. How about basic regular summoning. You cast a spell for 1 round and the in the next round both creature and you have a full round to play?

I am asking this because my GM wants to forbid my creature to play full attack in the next round it was summoned on account that it has some kind of "dizziness", thus not being able to perform full round action attacks (charge, full attack,...).

Again, we are talking about a wizard performing a basic summoning, NOT having the Rapid Summoning Feat.

P.S. Also, can please anyone tell me what are the prerequisites for rapid summoning?

Thank you all very much in advance.

[Helldog]

You cast a spell for 1 round and the in the next round both creature and you have a full round to play?
Absolutely.

[kulosle]

Also, can please anyone tell me what are the prerequisites for rapid summoning?.

It's an ACF that requires you to loose your familiar.

[Elboxo]

It's an ACF that requires you to loose your familiar.

Though you may be able to take it as a feat, ask your DM nicely. :)

[Drathmar]

Though you may be able to take it as a feat, ask your DM nicely. :)

Unfortunately his DM sounds kind of... harsh... wanting to not let summons have a full round action when they are summoned without rapid summoning...

You waste a round casting (so doing nothing), then on the next round your summon can only take a standard action... seems harsh to me.

[Manateee]

Divine Metamagic: Rapid Spell is a staple on my Clerics and Shamans for a reason.

[creepy00]

Unfortunately his DM sounds kind of... harsh... wanting to not let summons have a full round action when they are summoned without rapid summoning...

You waste a round casting (so doing nothing), then on the next round your summon can only take a standard action... seems harsh to me.

Don't even get me started about his opinion on spell casters (he even tried to force me to tell him on which location will the creature be summoned, and then if someone occupies it the spell would fail ;( )

Anyway, thank you all for your help. Since I am playing wizard specialist conjurer can anyone recommend me some good feats for him (evocation is my forbidden school, and the feat must be from official wizard of the coast book).

@Elboxo
Of course he wont let me take it as a feat, I will be lucky if I get to use it at all since it seems to me it is not official WOTC rule...

[Elboxo]

Don't even get me started about his opinion on spell casters (he even tried to force me to tell him on which location will the creature be summoned, and then if someone occupies it the spell would fail ;( )

Anyway, thank you all for your help. Since I am playing wizard specialist conjurer can anyone recommend me some good feats for him (evocation is my forbidden school, and the feat must be from official wizard of the coast book).

@Elboxo
Of course he wont let me take it as a feat, I will be lucky if I get to use it at all since it seems to me it is not official WOTC rule...

Well the ACF is from the Unearthed Arcana, maybe offer that the next time you level up you take the feature?

You must have 2 schools banned the second suggested school to ban is usually Enchantment, and are you going to be primarily a summoner? If you want to summon lots you may like the look of being a Focussed Specialist ( Drop a third school, get extra spells per day. )If you do plan of summonning a lot then it may be worth setting yourself up for Malconvoker, ( Complete Scoundrel ) but only if your game is going past levels 9-10, otherwise you don't get the full benefit of the prestige class.

We need more info to help you out; level, if you prestiged/muticlassed, stats, feats so far, etc. Knowing what roles the other party members fill won't hurt either.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Don't even get me started about his opinion on spell casters (he even tried to force me to tell him on which location will the creature be summoned, and then if someone occupies it the spell would fail ;( )

I can't say I agree with the ruling, but I can see why he'd say it. He wants you to declare where it's being summoned beforehand, which is reasonable, and then invoking the rule that you can only summon things in open spaces. If he's having your foes move to occupy the planned summoning places, though, especially without making Spellcraft checks to recognize what you're casting, I'd call shenanigans.

[Jack Zander]

I can't say I agree with the ruling, but I can see why he'd say it. He wants you to declare where it's being summoned beforehand, which is reasonable, and then invoking the rule that you can only summon things in open spaces. If he's having your foes move to occupy the planned summoning places, though, especially without making Spellcraft checks to recognize what you're casting, I'd call shenanigans.

It shouldn't matter anyway. Spell targets are chosen at the time the casting is completed, not started.

[SirFredgar]

It shouldn't matter anyway. Spell targets are chosen at the time the casting is completed, not started.

Is there a stack-like order of effect in D&D? I've never seen the ording of targeting vs casting before. Would it be possible to get a source to look over?

[Wookie-ranger]

on a related not:
isn't giving commands a move action? it is for animated skelis and such.

[Jack Zander]

Is there a stack-like order of effect in D&D? I've never seen the ording of targeting vs casting before. Would it be possible to get a source to look over?

I don't have anything to quote at the moment but all effects are chosen at the completion of the spell. Its written specifically with spells with longer casting times in mind.

[0nimaru]

Having you declare where it's being summoned is reasonable, although if it summons to an occupied square it should be shunted to a nearby square. If he wants to add a spellcraft check to it that would be fine. The point is that issues in adventuring should be overcome, not arbitrarily limiting.

Dizzy creatures on arrival sounds like an MTG Summoning Sickness type of effect, which your DM might be using because he's seen summons invalidate melee in the past. Summoning is a powerful tool and he may not be in the wrong for setting some limitations if he expects it to cause balance issues. At least he was up front with it, and the rule didn't pop into existence in 4 levels when you're really summoning up an army.

[KicktheCAN]

Though you may be able to take it as a feat, ask your DM nicely. :)

If he really wants his familiar then he should just take the Obtain Familiar feat. It is better than a normal familiar anyway.

[Elboxo]

If he really wants his familiar then he should just take the Obtain Familiar feat. It is better than a normal familiar anyway.

I'm pretty sure the ACFs that swap out your Familiar say you "Permanently give up the ability to have a familiar".......

[Elboxo]

If he really wants his familiar then he should just take the Obtain Familiar feat. It is better than a normal familiar anyway.

I'm pretty sure the ACFs that swap out your Familiar say you "Permanently give up the ability to have a familiar".......

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.