Is it just me or...?

[Gwendol]

Isn't this an easy exploit to defeat druids, especially for persuasive characters (like bards)? I mean, all the bard has to do is to Fascinate, then Suggest teaching of the druidic language.


A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities

If it works it's top shelf stuff together with Shivering Touch and similar.

[Gwendol]

Sorry for the multiple posts... The forum was "glitchy".

Please remove duplicates as I haven't found an erase button.

[Killer Angel]

Sorry for the multiple posts... The forum was "glitchy".

Please remove duplicates as I haven't found an erase button.

You can delete it under the "edit" options: you can delete the single post... and the thread, but only if someone did not already answered.
(edit for clarification: if in the thread there's only your OP, deleting the post will erase the whole one-post thread. But with more posts, you can't do the trick anymore.)

[dragonsamurai77]

Suggestion can't cause the target to do anything harmful, which this would likely fall under, and in any case, only a jerk DM would allow a Druid, or Paladin, or anything else to fall because of magical compulsion.

[Gwendol]

Is teaching a non-druid their language really harmful? In what sense?

They can atone for their sins... if still alive.

[Gullintanni]

Is teaching a non-druid their language really harmful? In what sense?

They can atone for their sins... if still alive.


Isn't this an easy exploit to defeat druids, especially for persuasive characters (like bards)? I mean, all the bard has to do is to Fascinate, then Suggest teaching of the druidic language.

If it works it's top shelf stuff together with Shivering Touch and similar.

SRD:

"You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

I would argue that any suggestion that caused you to lose your class features would probably trigger this clause of Suggestion and would therefore render the Suggestion ineffective. Voluntary loss of class features is both unreasonable and harmful to the character in question.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless you can learn an entire language within the 1 hour/level duration of Suggestion, I seriously doubt this would work.

[Gullintanni]

Unless you can learn an entire language within the 1 hour/level duration of Suggestion, I seriously doubt this would work.

Well yes, there is also that. Though if you've got the skill points to spend, then wouldn't the transfer of knowledge be instantaneous? :smallamused:

[Gwendol]

Because posing as a druid is impossible for the bard?

And I don't think the bard has to learn the language, only to have the druid teach it.

[candycorn]

I would say bluffing the druid into doing so would be an excellent way to do it.

I'd put it more in: use a doppleganger, and imitate a druidic initiate.

[Gullintanni]

Because posing as a druid is impossible for the bard?

And I don't think the bard has to learn the language, only to have the druid teach it.

The problem with the Bard posing as a Druid is that if the Bard were truly a Druid, they'd already know Druidic, ergo any attempt to feign being a Druid in order to learn Druidic would fail outright.

But even assuming that such a ruse would work, you'd have to make a Disguise check hindered by the fact that your Bard is probably wearing metal armor (a chain shirt) and the Bard can't speak Druidic to act in character, and the Bard doesn't have an animal companion. I'm just speculating, but any sane DM would impose a heck of a penalty given those circumstances.

[Boci]

This is a tab more complex, time consuming and unreliable than shivering touch, but also a lot more fun to attempt.

[etrpgb]

Is teaching a non-druid their language really harmful? In what sense?

They can atone for their sins... if still alive.

Avoid the problem, seek a Blighter. You can force or persuade him to teach you druidic without problems. You can kill him afterwards: it is probably good anyway.
Otherwise you can find loremaster that as 4th level bonus language took druidic...

[TroubleBrewing]

Avoid the problem, seek a Blighter. You can force or persuade him to teach you druidic without problems.

"Without problems" can mean, in this case, two things: 1) The Blighter will not lose his class features if he teaches you Druidic and 2) Blighters are teerrrrrrriiiibbblllleeee and therefore not at all challenging to coerce with a threat of violence.

[Gwendol]

The problem with the Bard posing as a Druid is that if the Bard were truly a Druid, they'd already know Druidic, ergo any attempt to feign being a Druid in order to learn Druidic would fail outright.

But even assuming that such a ruse would work, you'd have to make a Disguise check hindered by the fact that your Bard is probably wearing metal armor (a chain shirt) and the Bard can't speak Druidic to act in character, and the Bard doesn't have an animal companion. I'm just speculating, but any sane DM would impose a heck of a penalty given those circumstances.

Ok, so an apprentice druid then. Druids learn the language from senior druids, or is it divine enlightenment?
The chain shirt is easily disguised (how much is a hat of disguises, unless you have a spell to change your features?), and it can be removed, you know. Method acting and all that.
An animal companion is also easily arranged, through a bag of tricks for example. Once the druid is under the influence, the presence of the critter is of no relevance anyway.

[Greenish]

Avoid the problem, seek a Blighter.The goal, I gather, is not to learn druidic: that's merely the method. The goal is to cause the druid to "fall".

If learning druidic was the goal, easy options would also include finding a hellbred who was a druid in her former life. Or finding the right kobold, of course, because kobolds can solve any problem.

[candycorn]

Not to mention the fact that there are several ACFs that remove companions from druid. Or the Wild Cohort feat. Or a few levels of ranger.

[Username_too_lo]

Bearing in mind that one of the acceptable uses for suggestion is - and I'm paraphrasing - "That vat of acid is really a lovely bubble bath, go and jump in it" provided that you can couch it in the right way I don't see a problem with this working mechanically.

"Yeah, I'm a Druid, but I was cursed and lost my memory. I've been wandering the earth for two years piecing together my memories, but I've forgotten even the basics of Druidic Speech, and until I remember I'll be unable to break down that final barrier."

It goes without saying that this should be attempted BEFORE combat.

Of course, then we have to ask whether Nature is a Rule or Act Ethicist; will she cut the Druid off for something they're being forced into? Could you achieve a similar effect by sneaking into the Druid's bedroom and swapping their wooden armour for glamered metal armor? Or convincing them that the armour they are wearing is really metal armour that looks like wood and they need to wear the armour you have as well, which is wooden armour that looks like metal

Of course, ideally if you had access to a sleeping druid you'd just kill them outright, tying their hands and stuffing their mouths first to stop any pesky spells.

Disclaimer: I play a druid amongst other things - this post is not an endorsement of cruelty to sleeping druids.

[Gullintanni]

Ok, so an apprentice druid then. Druids learn the language from senior druids, or is it divine enlightenment?


Not really sure. This could be the sticking point. Druids could learn the language by communing with nature, or by being taught by other Druids. If it were the former, then Druids might not EVER consider a request to teach the language reasonable. Depends on the fluff?

...But I'll concede that it's probably possible to deceive a Druid into believing you're a Druid. You would then have to successfully Fascinate and Suggest the target Druid.

[Gwendol]

Fascinate is trivial at level 6, but the DC for suggestion needs some boosting. A shot of Eagle's splendor is a given; any other suggestions (pun intended)?

[Gullintanni]

Fascinate is trivial at level 6, but the DC for suggestion needs some boosting. A shot of Eagle's splendor is a given; any other suggestions (pun intended)?

Well...you do also have to succeed the Bluff and Disguise checks. As a WIS heavy class, Druids should have a decent Sense Motive...but I'll grant that the Bard's Bluff and Disguise checks will probably beat the heck outta the Druid's Sense Motive checks.

Still...that's 3-4 checks and saves. Lots of room for failure. And assuming failure in any of these key points means that the Druid knows what you just tried to pull. And they're still a Druid Bear. Riding a Bear. With Bears. And you're still just a squishy squishy Bard.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The goal, I gather, is not to learn druidic: that's merely the method. The goal is to cause the druid to "fall".

If learning druidic was the goal, easy options would also include finding a hellbred who was a druid in her former life. Or finding the right kobold, of course, because kobolds can solve any problem.

... can I sig that?

[Gwendol]

I don't know... bards are good at duping people. Glibness gives +30 on the bluff check, which should be enough to convince anyone of your druidic apprentice aspirations, or whatever works in that setting/world. The DC for fascinate is typically impossible to beat: any bard will invest max ranks in perform anyway, then adding CHA modifier and the +2 from a masterwork instrument.
The hard part will the be the Suggest DC, as it is 10+1/2 bard level+CHA modifier. I'm sure there are ways to increase the DC though... MIC item anyone?

Or you can just bluff...

[Treblain]

Use bluff with glibness. Convince the druid you're actually him from the past, and you traveled forward in time so that his future self can teach him Druidic, and the space-time continuum depends on this. In fact, if he doesn't teach you Druidic, he will never know Druidic. While he's pondering this paradox, your friend the rogue stabs him in the back. Druid is defeated. Problem solved.

[Gwendol]

I'm just surprised to even find that in the class description; I mean for a Paladin to fall from grace and seek atonement is epic and something of a great tragedy in the classical sense. But for the druid... teaching the wrong guy/gal their language...? That's like finding the vent exhaust in a Death Star.

We are talking about someone who is likely to spend most of his/her time as an animal, talking to other animals, and having an animal as their best friend. In comes the consummate actor/trickster... Any rogue/bard/beguiler with the right skill set or equipment could strip a druid of his powers using this.

Sheesh!

[Doughnut Master]

Use bluff with glibness. Convince the druid you're actually him from the past, and you traveled forward in time so that his future self can teach him Druidic, and the space-time continuum depends on this. In fact, if he doesn't teach you Druidic, he will never know Druidic. While he's pondering this paradox, your friend the rogue stabs him in the back. Druid is defeated. Problem solved.

This seems like the most solid plan so far.

[Greenish]

... can I sig that?Feel free to. :smalltongue:

[Calmar]

Of course you can pretend to be a druid's apprentice. After months or years of teaching you gain your level of druid and can speak Druidic. Next comes phase ß of your fiendish plan.

[The Mister Guy]

Or finding the right kobold, of course, because kobolds can solve any problem.

You are my hero.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Of course you can pretend to be a druid's apprentice. After months or years of teaching you gain your level of druid and can speak Druidic. Next comes phase ß of your fiendish plan.

Nah, you spend two skill points on speak language after killing some monsters.

[Telonius]

"Oh, dear brother Druid, it's terrible. I was captured by a cabal of wizards, and they erased my memories. I do not even remember the most sacred secrets of our language! Please, I beg you, help me to remember what I've lost."

Glibness plus full ranks in Bluff... ?

[deuxhero]

Take levels in loremaster and strike up a casual conversation. If he responds he has ever so slightly given you practice.


Druid and DMGs fall.

[Wings of Peace]

I think defeat is the wrong word to use here. Sure if it's a 1v1 fight and you can learn quickly it works. But how many people can learn a language from someone while a bear is trying to maul them? I guess it would encourage you to learn quickly though. Bears make everything more awesome, even language class!