Fighting as a Big Bad

[Herabec]

So, here it is. My party has finally made it to the fight with the big bad guy of this campaign arc. Due to some... impatience on the side of the characters, they've decided to force a confrontation with him a little (lot) earlier than they probably should have.

However, here it is!

My question is this - even though I've given them ample warnings about how strong this guy is, should I downplay the villain because of their forcing the battle early?

The party is this:
11th level Fighter/2nd level Barbarian
..We'll just call this one a 13th level Cleric with Divine Metamagic Persist.
Level 2 Rogue/Level 4 Wizard/Level 7 Unseen Seer
and a Level 6 Druid/Level 7 Beastmaster

Against at level 18 generalist Wizard Lich.

Seeing as the group is quite excited about finally facing their enemy, I'm somewhat conflicted. On the one hand, I feel it's my duty as a DM to have the Lich use the tactics and spells the Lich employs to the best of their abilities and let the dice fall where they may - after all, I've warned them.

On the other hand, nobody likes a TPK, which is likely what is to occur here unless I tone him down. Like, a lot. Because they rushed to him.

What would the people of the Playground do in this situation? Tone him down to give the party a fighting chance, or simply wipe the floor with them and tell them they were warned?

[Madwand99]

I would quite bluntly inform the people with relevant knowledge skills (arcana and religion) that they are quite certain this lich is too strong for them. If they fight, they will die. If they proceed, destroy them. No mercy.

[Kenneth]

incoming minority opinion

I would let the dice fall where they may. having given the player ample warnings of exactly how tough this guy is and all that he is capabel of doing.
but also i would allow them a way out, unless of course they managed to bungle that as well.

[Krazzman]

Do a Final Destination on them, players love that :D

But for being serious: Let them face a full powered lich if they want to.

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

[Herabec]

Eh.. I don't know if more skill checks are really necessary - they've already seen him lob Meteor Swarms at their 'army' and seems to have a method of replenishing his spells almost at will. (Or at least when he disappears from sight for a round)

Though I suppose another warning couldn't hurt before I take the undead casty gloves off and give them a liberal smackdown.

Of course, they have a way out - the wizard can teleport them out if things get hairy. Maybe. Unless the Lich - Mr. Arcane Magic is the Only Threat to Me, wipes her out first with a Finger of Death.

...'course, they could probably also try to run back down the tower, but it doesn't seem as though that's likely to succeed.

Thanks for the swift responses. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord.Sorasen]

There's a bit from Rich Burlew in the gaming section, all
When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree.

Now, that was written for player characters while you're running an NPC, so there is naturally a big difference... But a certain point applies, and that point is that there might be a way for you to stay within the spirit of the Big Bad and the campaign in general without killing the party and ending the campaign. Because D&D is meant to be fun for everyone, I'd find this to be the best solution.

I can see a couple solutions with a generic campaign. They might not apply to you but I'll give them anyway:

- Fake the party out! The party arrives at the scene, but due to divination, the BBEG has already left. Naturally he's placed a surprise. Perhaps not even a monster surprise but simply a "guess what spells I prepared" surprise. Added bonus if the party had something to protect. The big Bad took the time the party spent getting to him to take it.

- The Big bad has big plans for the party. Plans where they're alive? Maybe.

Actually that's all I got I'm sure others could do better.

[Flickerdart]

The Lich is a godlike figure, capable of manipulating magic with the best of them. He wouldn't even bother with 13th level pests. Have him pop a Gate to the Plane of Bad Things and Quickened Telekinesis (or other means of forced movement) to push the party into it. Then he goes about his day, because low-level adventurers trying to put an end to his reign of terror are just a normal Tuesday.

[Strangedays]

I subscribe of the DM school of punish stupidity. Either player or character.

In this case its both.

In character, they should be able to guess that he's pretty powerful and they should bide their time. Out of Character, they should KNOW that he's gonna be too powerful for them at this time. I agree with Kenneth, but only if you are feeling generous.

Another option would be to kill most of them, leave one or two alive (depending on party size). There are then options for them to pursue (rebuild party, revenge, etc). Again this is if you are feeling generous.

[Herabec]

The Lich is a godlike figure, capable of manipulating magic with the best of them. He wouldn't even bother with 13th level pests. Have him pop a Gate to the Plane of Bad Things and Quickened Telekinesis (or other means of forced movement) to push the party into it. Then he goes about his day, because low-level adventurers trying to put an end to his reign of terror are just a normal Tuesday.
While that is normally how I'd end this little situation, unfortunately that's not a viable option, really. Ravenloft campaign setting - the only real way for him to get rid of them is to kill them. Portals to other planes don't work :smallfrown: ... Or teleport them to the edge of his domain, then do so again and again every couple weeks or so when they finally make it back. That seems like so much effort though.

... Maybe find a way to permanence a Maze spell... *taps chin*

[Diarmuid]

I'll agree that you shouldnt change the Lich or downplay him, but there are certainly ways you can "beat" the party without simply TPK'ing them.

There are a few good ideas here, but something as simply as having him incapacitate them and them capture them could work. Then you've got a low WBL jailbreak on your hands and those can be fun.

[Madwand99]

Eh.. I don't know if more skill checks are really necessary - they've already seen him lob Meteor Swarms at their 'army' and seems to have a method of replenishing his spells almost at will. (Or at least when he disappears from sight for a round)

I didn't suggest any skill checks. Merely having 1 rank of arcana and religion is enough to know about the famous Meteor Swarm and what a lich is. That's enough to estimate this guy's challenge rating: at least 20.

The most important element of an RPG is choice. That includes the choice to commit suicide-by-lich. Make sure they KNOW it's suicide, though.

[silver spectre]

Let the PCs find out that the lich has a major spell ritual in effect that grants him effective Godhood by absorbing the lifeforce of those who "slay" him and is triggered by his destruction.

This should give all but the thickest players pause for thought. It also gives a reason for more adventuring and research to find a way to prevent the catastrophe.


Alternately there is always the old tried and true tactic of just having the bad guy humiliate them and then cast them away as not being worth the time...

[Fouredged Sword]

They enter his keep only to find him not there. They do find a map on the table though, and if they read the legend, they discover that it is writen entirely in explosive runes.

Also he just doesn't have time to deal with them. He teleports away leaving his level 15 ghoul cleric minion to deal with them. No need for him to risk the off chance that one of the stupid adventureres has a scroll of disjunction! Those items take a long time to replace, ghouls are a dime per handful.

[McStabbington]

The party has earned a curbstomp battle, no question about it. But there are ways that you can demonstrate that they are being foolish without Total Party Killing the group. The trick would be to do it in a way that a) makes the villain even more hated, and b) demonstrates just how strong he really is.

If I were to throw a suggestion out there, what you could try and do is make it a proxy fight just to show how outmatched they really are. If he's got a lieutenant, throw the lieutenant at them and have him smack them around while he simply watches. If he doesn't have a lieutenant, open a gate and bring in a pit fiend. If that's too cliche, have him hold one of their loved one's hostage unless they jump through some hoops to rescue her. Then, when they do rescue the loved one, have him summarily kill her and raise her as an undead abomination that curbstomps them all, then have him dust the thing just to show he can. At all times he should act snidely and as if they are beneath his dignity to notice.

But more than anything, you have to make sure that their best attacks barely hurt his helper. If any strike him, just have him laugh it off, catch the blade in his bare hand before breaking their sternum, stuff like that. The idea is that you have to impress on them that they cannot win this fight.

[Flickerdart]

While that is normally how I'd end this little situation, unfortunately that's not a viable option, really. Ravenloft campaign setting - the only real way for him to get rid of them is to kill them. Portals to other planes don't work :smallfrown: ... Or teleport them to the edge of his domain, then do so again and again every couple weeks or so when they finally make it back. That seems like so much effort though.

... Maybe find a way to permanence a Maze spell... *taps chin*
Are there any oceans or at least deep lakes? Popping someone down to the Abyssal zone is close enough to a legitimate Plane of Bad Things.

[Steward]

I like the lieutenant idea because it preserves some element of fun for the players. They're clearly looking for some kind of confrontation; having the bad guy just not be there or teleporting them directly to Hell is kind of boring (at least to me; the latter especially is basically an especially dull TPK -- a long-winded version of 'rocks fall everybody dies'). The lieutenant creates an option where you can TPK them or just pound on them or chase them away.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm in favor of the old "Ah. I see you only just managed to kill Lieutenant Ford. Well then. I suppose I'll have to deal with you mysel- oh, wait, nevermind. Lieutenant-Commander Data just arrived" trick.

[Whybird]

I can't remember how well 3.x does nonlethal damage, but could you not go all-out, have the lich utterly trounce them in combat, and then keep them alive for some reason? I can think of a couple of options

(a) it's more fun to throw them into some horrible demiplane and watch them die slowly in pain pursued by thousands of horrible creatures, or
(b) it's better for his purposes to put some sort of curse on them and let them go so that at a later date, upon meeting Important NPC X, the whole party black out and wake up to find they appear to have gone berserk and slaughtered everybody in the room
(c) he needs someone Of Good Heart to recover Important Artefact X, and places a geas on them so that they will slowly rot until they hand it over to him
(d) he is bored and wants a decent challenge: if he killed every low-level party who tried for him, he'd never ever have any interesting fights
(e) he doesn't want to kill the PCs, he wants to turn them to evil. For the moment, he wants to start small. So he beats them down until they can't fight back, and then gives them a choice: kneel before him, and say "Please spare my life, Master" (or something equally likely to make your players boil with rage) -- and they don't even have to say it like they mean it, he just wants them to say it -- and he will let them live, and allow them to leave. Otherwise, he kills them one by one.

[0nimaru]

Out of curiosity, does the party have any other objectives that might be more in their depth? Obviously you've played up Mr. Big Lich, so they see him as their goal.. but are they just bouncing around wiping out goblin civilizations while they get strong enough to tackle him?

Dropping more appealing alternative hooks (sort of positive reinforcement) might work better than just slapping them around and teaching them a lesson. The hooks could even be related to killing undead. Rings of Neg-energy protection, The Holy Avenger, whatever.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's a lich. They shouldn't even be considering taking it on unless they know exactly where its phylactery is and how it's protected. Maybe start feeding them some information about the phylactery, to pull them away from making a direct confrontation at this level.

But DO try to pull them away from confrontation. Because seriously, if the lich isn't pulling any punches, he can win this fight pretty much instantly. If he brings in a Pit Fiend or Balor via Gate or Shapechange, for instance, they both have an at-will Blasphemy that is strong enough to automatically paralyze the entire party for 1d10 minutes with no save. That's a pretty straightforward way to take care of them with a single spell, with minimal chance of screw-ups, even if they happen to catch him totally unprepared. Which they won't, because as a near-epic level wizard, he's probably pretty smart.

Otherwise, teleporting them as far away as possible, into a particularly nasty area, is about your best bet. (Stupid Ravenloft's pocket dimension weirdness - otherwise I'd be firmly within the the "Gate them to another dimension" camp.) Perhaps the lich has a breeding ground of wights somewhere near the edge of his domain - a walled off compound of nothing but wights, which he teleports undesirables into, to gradually grow his secret wight army. Fighting off teeming masses of wights, busting out of a compound, and then dragging their bruised and drained butts back to what counts as civilization in Ravenloft could be fun...

[Herabec]

Out of curiosity, does the party have any other objectives that might be more in their depth? Obviously you've played up Mr. Big Lich, so they see him as their goal.. but are they just bouncing around wiping out goblin civilizations while they get strong enough to tackle him?

Dropping more appealing alternative hooks (sort of positive reinforcement) might work better than just slapping them around and teaching them a lesson. The hooks could even be related to killing undead. Rings of Neg-energy protection, The Holy Avenger, whatever.

Well, those would be good and all... but they're currently in the Lich's tower, in the room just before his own. Next week will begin with the confrontation, because that's what they want. They want to confront the Lich that's been making their lives rather difficult from the beginning of this campaign arc.

Despite all this though, yes they've got other campaign hooks that I've dangled in front of them at least a couple dozen times - the Drow cities beneath Arak, or the Illithid that dwell near them who could prove to be powerful allies...or EXP-rich fiends to slaughter. I can never tell with this group, being as they're all 'neutral' with the exception of the LG cleric.

Barovia, Falkovia... The group has found multiple plot hooks that would allow them to make off with more XP/whatever else they wanted. They're the ones that fixated on the Lich.

Regardless, thanks for all the replies. I'm getting some pretty good ideas here on how to handle the situation and still give the group the confrontation with the lich they've been craving for the past ten game sessions.

[BlueInc]

Have they destroyed his phylactery yet/know where it is/know it exists? Because if they don't know how to destroy that, they aren't going to beat him.

This gives you several options:

1). "Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)": The lich seriously underestimates them, and they manage to destroy his physical body. He regenerates and is now ticked the eff off, and sees them as target for vengeance.

2). "Harry Potter":The party currently doesn't know about the phylactery/forgot about it; have a friendly NPC say "Hey, you should probably do something about that"; the players now have to overcome his defenses and destroy his phylactery before taking him on.

Edit: After reading your last post, I would suggest option number 1; let them fight and beat him, and them have him come back stronger and angrier.

3). The party does know about the phylactery but hasn't done anything about it. In this case they are stupid and should probably get their posteriors handed to them by the lich or one of his subordinates.

[Jair Barik]

In a way it might be that they are roleplaying very well. A powerful lich is something that can't be allowed to roam free and given the chance it is their duty to try and take him down. Sort of like how the order of the stick go around chasing an epic level lich they really don't stand a chance against.

[Herabec]

Have they destroyed his phylactery yet/know where it is/know it exists? Because if they don't know how to destroy that, they aren't going to beat him.

This gives you several options:

1). "Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)": The lich seriously underestimates them, and they manage to destroy his physical body. He regenerates and is now ticked the eff off, and sees them as target for vengeance.

2). "Harry Potter":The party currently doesn't know about the phylactery/forgot about it; have a friendly NPC say "Hey, you should probably do something about that"; the players now have to overcome his defenses and destroy his phylactery before taking him on.

3). The party does know about the phylactery but hasn't done anything about it. In this case they are stupid and should probably get their posteriors handed to them by the lich or one of his subordinates.

Yes, the Cleric knows the Lich has a phylactery. But he doesn't know where it is, what it is, or how to destroy it. At all. The Fighter and Wizard think just cutting his head off should be sufficient. The druid... Not sure what the druid thinks about all this.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

From what I understand, there was/is a battle, right? The Lich was fighting and used some of his resources. Now, maybe he's still powerful enough to curb-stomp them, but he's not willing to take the chances. Instead he sends one of his more powerful minions at them and goes away.
Done.

[BlueInc]

Yes, the Cleric knows the Lich has a phylactery. But he doesn't know where it is, what it is, or how to destroy it. At all. The Fighter and Wizard think just cutting his head off should be sufficient. The druid... Not sure what the druid thinks about all this.

(emphasis mine)

Yeeeeah that's not gonna work out well for them in the end.

[molten_dragon]

The logic here is a little twisted, but it could work.

The lich is probably smart enough to realize that the party is not powerful enough to significantly damage him. This could actually make him more cautious in the fight than he'd normally be, because he might not understand why they're coming after him at all. He might think they're some sort of decoy and that a (much more powerful) sucker punch will be aimed at him if he focuses his full attention and power on the party. This will probably only buy them a few rounds of him going easy on them, but it might be enough for them to realize how overmatched they are and escape the fight.

Otherwise, if they've had fair warning that he's that much more powerful than them, and choose to fight him anyway, then let the dice fall where they may, and whatever happens happens.

[AureliusDuPrix]

In my expierence as a DM I've come across a few situations like this one before, and some of the options here are good ones. Consider, however, that a lich is someone who is constantly studying, yearning for knoweldege and power. Consider that this might not be the true lich's tower. In the past, I had a wizard's simulacrum gaurding some of his various possessions. You may consider that this lich has placed a simulacrum of himself in this tower to guard his phylactery. It may alter the course of your story arc too much, but it's ultimately up to you which (if any) of these solutions you choose. This allows them to encounter their enemy while also ensuring their survival, and it ultimately also provides them with a reason to pursue the lich, and allows you to guide them in a, not direct, but more direct way should you so choose.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, it's a bit of a cop-out, but you can have them fight a semi-hobbled lich who has already spent all of his 9th-level spells for the day. If they defeat him, they still have no way to prevent him from coming back, since they haven't dealt with his phylactery.

A lich with 8th-level spells is still a huge and overwhelming battle for a group of 13th-level characters, but at least without the 9th level spells, he has less auto-win buttons. Perhaps also have a contingent improved Guards and Wards-style spell that goes off if he dies, so they get a cool thematic battle and a fun, Indiana Jones-esque escape from the trapped tower, while also knowing that they only got a taste of what the lich is capable of.

[DeAnno]

If I was a level 18 Lich, I would be afraid of a party of 4 reasonably optimized PCs at level 13. Economy of actions, rocket tag, and all. If the Wizard nondetections the lot of them they could arguably get past foresight, and if the Lich bungles his initiative that same wizard might get lucky stripping his buffs with Greater Dispel Magic and the party beatsticks might smash his body to pieces and steal all his gear.

Remember, in 3.5 losing your life, even for a non-lich, is not even CLOSE to as bad as losing your gear. :smallsmile: It might be a low risk, but it is entirely possible. So he has justification if you want him to run or send minions first, especially if he isn't very well informed of the optimization level of the PCs.

[RedWarrior0]

Oh, just remember, if you go the route of them possibly beating him, 1d10 days later he shows up out of the blue, disjoins them in the surprise round, kills them, and raises them into intelligent undead. Congratulations, now you have your next campaign already set up for you!

[Piggy Knowles]

If I was a level 18 Lich, I would be afraid of a party of 4 reasonably optimized PCs at level 13. Economy of actions, rocket tag, and all. If the Wizard nondetections the lot of them they could arguably get past foresight, and if the Lich bungles his initiative that same wizard might get lucky stripping his buffs with Greater Dispel Magic and the party beatsticks might smash his body to pieces and steal all his gear.

Because of the nastiness of the Holy Word-line of spells, the fact that they're (at minimum) 5 HD below the lich's caster level means that they really don't have much of a fighting chance. Again, even if there's no Foresight up/they find a way to bypass it, and they get incredibly lucky and manage to dispel all of his buffs, he's still got the trump card of Shapechange -> Blasphemy. Even if the lich doesn't know that they're right in the range of being auto-paralyzed, a CL18 Shapechange spell is still brutally powerful enough to take on a party almost all by its lonesome.


Remember, in 3.5 losing your life, even for a non-lich, is not even CLOSE to as bad as losing your gear.

That's what Astral Projection is for! Liches are actually better at Astral Projection shenanigans than most, because if someone does find a way to sever the Silver Cord, you'll still regenerate in your phylactery.

[Lans]

The lich doesn't have shape change or gate or foresight

He has meteor swarm as his 9th level spell. Fire resistance should make this a joke.

The wizard can get a death ward from the cleric who if he has karma beads has a caster level about equal to the lich.

Magic circle to protect the guys with low will saves.

[Yahzi]

kneel before him, and say "Please spare my life, Master" (or something equally likely to make your players boil with rage)
In the computer game Colonization, every so often King George would appear and insult you. You only had two buttons to respond with, A: Kiss his pinky ring, or B: Declare war! Of course for most of the game you're just not ready to rebel, so you have to suck it up.

I always thought that was brilliant.

[Parra]

Im of the opinion that you should give them a fighting chance. Lich's, being the fun undead that they are, can recover from a death another death(?) thanks to their phylactery.

For whatever reason have the Lich be at not-quite-full power or not perfectly ready to deal with the group specfically and give the group a chance to win as well as a chance to lose but escape. Hard won by the skin of your teeth fights are always fun.

Regardless of the outcome be it win or lose but escape it gives you time to fill in the skipped parts of the campaign as they prep for round 2 against the big bad.
Then in round 2, when they were actually supposed to fight him you can take the gloves off and go nuts

[B!shop]

Let the Lich play with your group.
He has enough power to not bother too much their attacks and kill them easily, but hey, why kill them if he can let them suffer?

Depending on your campaign, he can capture them (jailbreak as some else already said), he can force them to do something for him (geas-like), or he can even let them go in fear.

[Runestar]

If not played too abusively, a wizard18 lich npc can be defeated in a fair fight. It will have just 117hp on average, its AC is none too stellar, and if it focuses mainly on damaging spells like meteor swarm and maximised cone of cold, the PCs still have a decent chance of survival.

Skip the action-granting spells like timestop (or use them primarily for buffing), stay away from auto-disabling spells like maze/forcecage and just wade straight into battle? Then maybe when the tide turns against it, its last ditch effort is to dragonshape (PHB2)?

Another option is to go something like wizard13/archmage5 and choose the abilities which cannibalise his higher lv slots (eg: arcane fire/mastery of elements/arcane reach), so he actually has fewer higher lv spells to throw around, but may be more versatile overall. :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

I would let them fight and kill an asteral projection. The litch has more important things to spend his 9th's on than a meddleing party, expecialy when they can't actualy kill him or destroy any of his gear.

Let him scoft at them and simply teleport away to deal with another problem. Let the battle start and a minnion runs in and tells him an army has been spoted somewhere that needs stomping.

He then greater teleports away leaving the minion to deal with the threat from the party. They stop that particular base, but the litch lives on and they have to find him again, leaving room for you to throw enough threats at them they get a chance to level a time or two.

[Piggy Knowles]

The lich doesn't have shape change or gate or foresight

He has meteor swarm as his 9th level spell. Fire resistance should make this a joke.

The wizard can get a death ward from the cleric who if he has karma beads has a caster level about equal to the lich.

Magic circle to protect the guys with low will saves.

Erm... according to the OP, he's a level 18 generalist wizard. That means that he has more than one 9th level spell, and can swap them out each day. Granted, why he's wasting his time with Meteor Swarm when Shapechange can let him turn into things that can cast Meteor Swarm, letting him do that (and more) basically every round for three hours, is a mystery to me...

[Bloodgruve]

Sounds to me that the lich will be acquiring some gear and the PC's will find themselves naked in the middle of no where...

GL
Blood~

[Lans]

Erm... according to the OP, he's a level 18 generalist wizard. That means that he has more than one 9th level spell, and can swap them out each day. Granted, why he's wasting his time with Meteor Swarm when Shapechange can let him turn into things that can cast Meteor Swarm, letting him do that (and more) basically every round for three hours, is a mystery to me...

I miss remembered when xyklon got mentioned.

Though it might speak to his wisdom. Say he takes something like summon monster 9, MS, Energy Drain and Weird as his 9th level spells. Fairly solid but not too broken.

Let him have 40 hd worth of undead.

Add in a few defenses Moment of Prescience, energy resistance, and a few others.

The party still should have a chance depending on selection.

edit both his and the parties. The cleric brings death ward the wizard brings superior resistance and other protections. Though 2 more levels would make this a lot more winnable, as it is its a CR+7 fight which I think is considered a barely winnable fight IRC.

Edit it just occurred to me that the wizard and druid lost 2 and 7 caster levels. The party had better have a damn good plan.

[TheJudicator]

I have no idea if this said showdown has already happened or not, but nontheless, here's my 2 coppers...


A few of the aforementioned ideas work. While extremely stupid a party may be (my group dysfunctions like no other), a tpk should be only used as a last resort, when they've bungled so far, even the dm can't reasonably save them. That being said, we'll take a look at the lich.

Now, evil characters, especially intelligent BBEGs, tend to possess a shared trait: they're arrogant. He knows he is superior to these meddling fools who call themselves heroes. So, while still having his maximum power (plus the possibility of minions), he would intentionally hold back. After all, why use a tomahawk missile to kill a fly, if you'll excuse the euphimism? That way, if they do surprise him, he can give an impressive, and revealing, display of power, and then deny them victory by several of the methods above.

And as a side note, that cleric should realize that if he knows what I phylactery is, then he should know what it's for, and how foolish they're being. Feel free to mention it to them after the fact if you wish :)

[Fouredged Sword]

Look your players in the eyes. Take a deep breath. Ask them very clearly and in a very serious voice "Are you absolutly sure?". If they say yes, nod gravely and keep going.

If they ignore that much of a hint then they deserve a TPK.

[Alejandro]

You've given them plenty of warning. Let me ask you this: If the players were to warn you that they weren't having any fun, or that they don't like the adventures, you would listen, right? Any good GM would. You'd adapt, however slightly, to ensure all are having fun.

Well, now we reverse it to the actual situation. You're the GM, and you're warning them, repeatedly and nicely, and they won't listen. Nor have they done their homework on how to beat a lich permanently. If the GM doesn't listen to the players, eventually the GM gets screwed. If the players don't listen to the GM (when the GM is being respectful about it) eventually the players get screwed.

So, have at them. However, you don't have to kill them. Have the lich prepare some nasty spells that incapacitate but do not permanently destroy. For example, turn as many PCs into stone as possible, starting with anyone who can cast spells to undo that. Dominate others, or turn them into something embarrassing. Ideally, the lich could petrify the whole party, keep them around for a few centuries, then get bored and have the old art thrown out, maybe the spell finally wears off after a few centuries, and presto: the PCs are back, but their world is not the same and the lich (if still alive) is even stronger now.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would point out from the litches perspective, turning them to stone has a much better chance of keeping them from comeing back than killing them. Death is a revolving door in DnD. Being a statue is reversable, but you can't just be true resed from across the globe.

[Analytica]

How about...

... the lich figures this is a good time to fake its death. Let the adventurers fight hard, maybe some of them dies, but in the end, they defeat the lich. It has surprisingly little magic items on it, except - aha! - the phylactery. It reeks of evil magic, and they must jump through hoops to destroy it. Now the adventurers are heroes, bards sing about them, and nobody watches the lich's moves. It begins the next stage of its evil master plan while the adventurer's party and go on another quest.

During that quest, they encounter disturbing legends about the lich they vanquished, and about how its phylactery looks nothing like what they destroyed. As they return to their allies with these news, there is another revelation coming... :smallbiggrin:

[BlueInc]

During that quest, they encounter disturbing legends about the lich they vanquished, and about how its phylactery looks nothing like what they destroyed. As they return to their allies with these news, there is another revelation coming... :smallbiggrin:

OR they find out that he in fact had seven phylacteries, of which they only destroyed one, and one of the PCs who recived a scar in the battle with the lich is now actually a phy-

::throat sliced by ninjas/swordsages::

[Stront]

While that is normally how I'd end this little situation, unfortunately that's not a viable option, really. Ravenloft campaign setting - the only real way for him to get rid of them is to kill them. Portals to other planes don't work :smallfrown: ... Or teleport them to the edge of his domain, then do so again and again every couple weeks or so when they finally make it back. That seems like so much effort though.

... Maybe find a way to permanence a Maze spell... *taps chin*

The fact that this is Ravenloft cements my decision even more here; if the BBEG can kill them all - do it. By now they should know evil always has the upper hand in Ravenloft. Add the fact he is a good deal more powerful in his own right and they should know better.

That being said, if they realize their error and try to flee give them an out. The lich can then torment them at will as fitting with the setting.

[Chambers]

So how did the fight go?

[Randomguy]

I might be too late to post this, but i'm posting it anyways:

I suggest you merge a warning with a way to weaken the lich: have the adventurers meet a small group of three Lawful good NPC's their level or slightly higher about halfway through the dungeons. Try a straight wizard (or sorcerer if you prefer), paladin and cleric. (No prestige classes or dips or anything.)

When they get to the door to the liches chamber, the allied wizard casts extended wall of force between the party and the NPC's, so that the innocents aren't in danger. Feel free to have the paladin give a little speech about how those three characters have been training for that their entire lives, while the PC's weren't, and they were doing this for their
protection, and so on. (And hope the wizard doesn't have disintegrate prepared.)

The NPC party goes inside the lich's room and the lich utterly destroys them while the characters can hear the fight in detail, including the NPC's screeming for mercy.

The PC's will either realise the lich is too powerful and leave to fight another day, or choose to fight anyway and face a lich with some spent spell slots and some damage taken, giving them a better chance. (No need to hold back, they had plenty of warnings.)

If they choose to fight the lich, put about half his wealth by level in the same place where his phylactery is hidden, in case they do win.

An alternative: make it so that they don't even get to the big bad. Why would a lvl 18 lich have a dungeon so weak that lvl 13 characters can survive it?

[FearlessGnome]

... Maybe find a way to permanence a Maze spell... *taps chin*

Not quite suitable for the occasion, but a level 17+ Shadowcaster can use Black Labyrinth for a 1 mile radius Maze that lasts for 16 days.

At level 18, with very little planning ahead, they can make it supernatural to avoid any of that pesky dispelling business.

Arguably using Widen Supernatural Ability doubles the radius, as well.

The obvious use for this spell is to travel the Planes, trolling kingdoms everywhere. bonus points for appearing in the sky and subjecting armies at war to this.

The Lich at hand, of course, would need a cohort, or to hire a fellow Big Bad for the minute it takes to cast it (No components or exp involved).

[Infernalbargain]

... Maybe find a way to permanence a Maze spell... *taps chin*

Maze + dim lock can be close enough.

[FatR]

Eh.. I don't know if more skill checks are really necessary - they've already seen him lob Meteor Swarms at their 'army' and seems to have a method of replenishing his spells almost at will. (Or at least when he disappears from sight for a round)
Clarify to them, that in your games good guys aren't supposed to win just because they are good guys. If they still proceed, kill their characters without mercy. If there are standard procedures of making resurrection difficult in your game (undeadifying the defeated who don't exactly merit casting Soul Bind, for example), the lich should use them as well. Both rewarding stupidity and removing the possibility of failure only make games worse in the long term.

[Fouredged Sword]

Raise them all as something evil and smart. Now the game is an evil campain. go kill some villagers to satiate your hunger.

[Calanon]

First of all as a player who has actually gotta a chance to play as a Lich BBEG i must say that I wouldn't waste my time against them...

1st or second it doesn't matter; depending on where the Lich is, here is what the Lich would do (unspecialized 18th lvl Wizard HP of 140)

Round 1: Lich Passes initiative and chooses to go last for each player. The players attack, Cleric and Druid attempting to Harm the undead with Positive energy the Lich survives these attacks if the players do not overcome his damage reduction. it is now the Lichs turn. Plane Shift or Teleport away.

The Encounter ends automatically. The Lich could have easily slaughtered them with a Meteor Swarm but didn't view them as worthy of wasting a 9th lvl spell. There fight is delayed for another day giving the Lich time to make his plan come to fruition OR he could just out live the players :|


The later tactic is what makes a Lich BBEG so difficult because as a DM you have to think like a Lich, now think about it if you were a totally sexy unbelievably powerful Undead of amazing arcane power would you even give the time of day to a bunch of 13th level adventurers let alone a meteor swarm to each and every face? hell no I would leave them to suffer the passages of time and continue my research for greater power...

So my advice is to not down play the Lich but to up play the Lichs arrogance which will incite the players to want to go deeper and deeper into the game and find out how to slay the Lich once and for all.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Let me put it this way: The PCs might be cockroaches to the Lich, but would YOU leave your home to insects or get rid of them, especially if it's childishly easy for you? :smallamused: