Low level druid

[Elboxo]

Hey guys, for an upcoming campaign my friend is trying out being DM ( For the second time, after a successful and fun first ) we are starting at level 2, it's a party of four; me, our usual DM (Kobold Bard), a friend who has started playing this year ( He wants to play a ranger/scout, not built yet though ) and a guy who has never played who will probably end up being our main tank ( Barbarian or barbarian cross with warblade or something for extra options and more fun for him, or even a rogue )

I have already built a cleric i could use, but i'm now thinking i should maybe be a druid, for the animal companion and other spells, the animal companion will help a lot since The kobold bard has about 4 strength, and we only have one main melee, and he may be rogue because the DM has already stated that it will be relatively trap-heavy ( Just for fun and to get the team to work together ).

I had a cleric with power attack and a guisarme ( War domain, no deity ) because the heavy armour and melee would be nice, on top of healing a decent amount ( Being the only source of heals, for this level i'll be about the healbot, but i'll be sure to get blessed bandages ) But i thought an animal companion may be more help than just heavy armour, and i could perhaps get intuative strike ( Wisdom to hit ) or something else that will help me keep up with melee while having low armour? Unless you guys have suggestions on how to keep armour up and melee nice ( We already have our ranger so yeah...)

So any advisable races/feats? I think our DM will allow one flaw, so that opens things up a bit, i don't want to multiclass to monk for the Wis to AC because i get less casting, which is really gonna be vital at this level for healing/Battlefield control

[NNescio]

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived) might be useful.

[Elboxo]

Or should i stay cleric for those tasty domain spells?

[NNescio]

Either would work -- melee Druids and Clerics are called Codzillas for very good reasons. Druids are a bit more... cumbersome to play though, since you are also controlling your animal companion.

Standard melee Druid strategy is to wildshape into a nasty-enough animal and maul enemies to death together with your animal companion. Season with non-core Druid-only buffs as necessary ('though strictly speaking they aren't needed).

Standard melee Cleric strategy is to cast Divine Power and Righteous Might before going to town on your enemies. Season with other buffs and Persistent Spell, as necessary, 'though again this isn't really required either.

Healing-wise, the Druid is a bit less efficient with the traditional cure and heal spells, but they also has access to the Vigor line of spells and Summon Nature’s Ally IV gives you unicorns. You can also take the Touch of Healing feat if you want 'free' out-of-combat healing (up to a certain point), but I generally find it to be a waste of a feat.

[Elboxo]

Either would work -- melee Druids and Clerics are called Codzillas for very good reasons. Druids are a bit more... cumbersome to play though, since you are also controlling your animal companion.

Standard melee Druid strategy is to wildshape into a nasty-enough animal and maul enemies to death together with your animal companion. Season with non-core Druid-only buffs as necessary ('though strictly speaking they aren't needed).

Standard melee Cleric strategy is to cast Divine Power and Righteous Might before going to town on your enemies. Season with other buffs and Persistent Spell, as necessary, 'though again this isn't really required either.

As i would do, but we are starting at level 2, you see.....

I was looking at half-orc druids and shifter druids too, they look nice

[Talya]

Yeah, except he's starting at 2.

No wildshape for 3 levels, no divine power, no righteous might.

Ashbound Summoning is awesome at level 1 (+3 luck bonus on attacks is substantial at 1, and extending the duration of your summons is wonderful at level 2). Combine with Augment Summoning or some other way of getting the same bonuses. Your level 1 wolf summons will rip through everything.

Natural Bond is powerful after level 4, Natural Spell after level 5. You're actually a bit feat starved early on.

[Elboxo]

Yeah, except he's starting at 2.

No wildshape for 3 levels, no divine power, no righteous might.

Ashbound Summoning is awesome at level 1 (+3 luck bonus on attacks is substantial at 1, and extending the duration of your summons is wonderful at level 2). Combine with Augment Summoning or some other way of getting the same bonuses. Your level 1 wolf summons will rip through everything.

Natural Bond is powerful after level 4, Natural Spell after level 5. You're actually a bit feat starved early on.

Yep, as said i will be needing these spells for healing, most likely, and so i would like to be able to poke sticks at things in melee also.

EDIT: At the moment i'm looking at Half-Orc Druid substitution levels, undecided yet if i want normal Half-Orc for strength ( I will be cutting things ) or Desert Half-Orc for +2 con. I'll probably end up with a spear and heay wooden shield, with hide armour, since it's well within WBL..... i'll end up with quite a bit of health ( D10, extra if desert variant ), with about 12 Dex, i'd end up with 16 AC and a fair amount of health, also my animal companion will have a fair bit of health too. If i go the desert variant with only 16 AC but extra con, i may use a bow and get zen archery...

[NNescio]

As i would do, but we are starting at level 2, you see.....

I was looking at half-orc druids and shifter druids too, they look nice

Get a Riding Dog animal companion, summon a wolf, and then whack your enemies with a scimitar or quarterstaff (or just hang back to throw spells and slingstones). That's a lot of attacks.

Ashbound Summoning*, as Talya mentioned, powers up your summons significantly. Augment Summoning does so as well, 'though it requires Spell Focus (Conjuration) as a prerequisite.

It's possible to skip the prerequisite though (Initiate of Malar, Half-Orc substitution levels, etc), but some other summoning feats also require you to take Spell Focus first, and Initiate of Malar pigeonholes you into being evil while Half-Orc is well... Half-Orc.

(*Ashbound Summoning also has very annoying flavour text. It shouldn't be an issue, being just flavour text and all, but some DMs might see fit to enforce it.)

Edit:

Yep, as said i will be needing these spells for healing, most likely, and so i would like to be able to poke sticks at things in melee also.
Okay, don't summon and just use your animal companion instead.

[Ursus the Grim]

So you want to be off-tank and save your spells for heals?

Play a halfling with a wolf (or riding dog) companion and ranks in Ride.

I'm dead serious. Halfling improves your attacks with the sling. Cast Magic Stone if you really want to beef them up. Wearing hide armor doesn't slow you down while on your mount. You're going to have a good ride check and an AC of at least 15. Pepper your opponent with ranged attacks, use the wolf's speed to intercept enemies, use trip to support the main melee. You've got some decent options. You get hurt? Your wolf get hurt? Because you're perpetually mounted, you get your two for one with Cure Light Wounds.

The wolf is better than most melee druid builds at that level, and probably as good as your main melee.

Your wolf can also get you to where your heals are needed faster than any other core race.

Suggested stats.
Wis/Dex/Str/Con/Int/Cha

Con will be more important down the road, of course, but for now you shouldn't be hit often.

[Elboxo]

So you want to be off-tank and save your spells for heals?

Play a halfling with a wolf companion and ranks in Ride.

I'm dead serious. Halfling improves your attacks with the sling. Cast Magic Stone if you really want to beef them up. Wearing hide armor doesn't slow you down while on your mount. You're going to have a good ride check and an AC of at least 15. Pepper your opponent with ranged attacks, use the wolf's speed to intercept enemies, use trip to support the main melee. You've got some decent options.

Your wolf can also get you to where your heals are needed faster than any other core race.

I like the sound of that a lot, except i won't be doing too much stabbing myself... The wolf sounds like an EXCELLENT idea, the sling is like 1d3 damage, less if i'm small so that could be fun, but i'd probably hit a fair bit with halfing bonuses....... i'll look at it

[Talya]

Riding dog is strictly better than wolf.

[Ursus the Grim]

Riding dog is strictly better than wolf.

Yeah, it is. I'm just in the habit of mentioning the wolf all the time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a wooden tower shield, and just cast and concentrate on Enrage Animal every round. See if you can replace the effect of Enrage Animal with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), since it's normally identical to a Barbarian's Rage.

Either Ashbound or Greenbound Summoning would be good for 1st level. Greenbound creatures can use Wall of Thorns 1/day and Entangle at will as spell-like abilities, so at this level a Summon Nature's Ally 1 gets you a Greenbound Dire Rat that can make a 10x10 or two 5x10 squares of Wall of Thorns that lasts 10 minutes, and then use Entangle once before the duration runs out. Wall of Thorns can be dropped right on top of enemies so use it like a Web spell, except it doesn't need to be anchored anywhere and it's extremely difficult to destroy. Greenbound creatures are also extremely difficult to kill and make decent combatants, so that could give you some meat shields.

At 3rd level get Natural Bond, so that at 4th level you can get a 'level -3' companion (Fleshraker dinosaur, MM3) and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits.

[faceroll]

Get a riding dog as an animal companion and put barding on it. Wear lots of armor yourself, be a small race, and ride a riding dog you bought. Buy several more wartrained riding dogs. They are only 150gp each.

Move around in combat delivering heals/casting entangle. Have your dog pack trip everything and basically protect your tank from too much harm. Make sure you read up on how handle animal and "tricks" work. You can get around the action economy of handling animals if you think on it.

Wild Cohort (can find on wizard's website) can get you another, weaker animal companion.

If you have downtime, cast lots of goodberry. Cheap out of combat healing for that level.

[Elboxo]

Yeah, it is. I'm just in the habit of mentioning the wolf all the time.


Wait why is riding dog better? Also you said earlier I could get two for one healing myself/mount... Where does it say you can do this?

[Gavinfoxx]

No, actually, you won't be needing those spells for healing.

No, not even then.

Really.

Just buy a wand of lesser vigor, and heal out of combat, and PREVENT damage to your guys by Entangling enemies and using lots of ranged and/or reach attacks on them, and/or, when you get to level 3, HIPPOGRIFFS. Talk to the party and pool your funds if you have to.

Oh gawd, summoned Huppogriffs with a few of the summoning enhancement feats on them are soooo awweesssommmeee

[faceroll]

Wait why is riding dog better?

The main appeal of the wolf is trip- war trained war dogs also get trip, and they also have better stats. Just compare their stat blocks, you'll see.


Also you said earlier I could get two for one healing myself/mount... Where does it say you can do this?

Read about sharing spells for your animal companion.


No, actually, you won't be needing those spells for healing.

No, not even then.

Really.

Just buy a wand of lesser vigor, and heal out of combat, and PREVENT damage to your guys by Entangling enemies and using lots of ranged and/or reach attacks on them, and/or, when you get to level 3, HIPPOGRIFFS. Talk to the party and pool your funds if you have to.

Oh gawd, summoned Huppogriffs with a few of the summoning enhancement feats on them are soooo awweesssommmeee

While true, with noobs in the party, and a riding dog that's as potent as a fighter, I would recommend being the nice guy healing everyone. No reason to hog the spotlight. Summon a couple of nature's ally if you must; otherwise heal your friends. Suboptimal? Sure. But it's party friendly.

[Gavinfoxx]

Which is why you heal people up to full outside of combat if they are half down?

A Riding Dog and a few Mules can tank perfectly well at level 2.

What I would do is TALK TO THE OTHER PLAYERS about this.

"Hi guys, I have the melee and brute squad and summoned cannon fodder and enemy area suppression and tank roles down pat, but I only have out of combat healing, though I have a whole mess of it. Could you guys maybe spec some ranged characters? Also, I'm totally okay if one of you guys runs some of my melee brutes that I have statted up and gotten with my character resources if you want to do so, I don't want to have my turn take half an hour cause I am cluttering up the board with five times as many guys as you all."

[Ursus the Grim]

The main appeal of the wolf is trip- war trained war dogs also get trip, and they also have better stats. Just compare their stat blocks, you'll see.

Here, I'll sum it up for you.

Riding Dog gets

+2 Natural Armor
+2 Str (means +1 Grapple, +1 trip, +2 damage)
+4 Jump
+2 Listen and Spot (instead of WF Bite, but you don't need it because he's got +2 Str)


All for the price of being 10 feet slower. Still faster than you would be otherwise.

Edit: Gavin, I think if someone goes and tells the rest of their party to roll up ranged characters because you're powergaming enough to replace all of them, that someone should probably have things thrown at them, starting at dice and perhaps graduating to fists.

[faceroll]

"Hi guys, I have the melee and brute squad and summoned cannon fodder and enemy area suppression and tank roles down pat, but I only have out of combat healing, though I have a whole mess of it. Could you guys maybe spec some ranged characters? Also, I'm totally okay if one of you guys runs some of my melee brutes that I have statted up and gotten with my character resources if you want to do so, I don't want to have my turn take half an hour cause I am cluttering up the board with five times as many guys as you all."

You don't sound like a very fun person to play with.

[Elboxo]

The main appeal of the wolf is trip- war trained war dogs also get trip, and they also have better stats. Just compare their stat blocks, you'll see.



Read about sharing spells for your animal companion.



While true, with noobs in the party, and a riding dog that's as potent as a fighter, I would recommend being the nice guy healing everyone. No reason to hog the spotlight. Summon a couple of nature's ally if you must; otherwise heal your friends. Suboptimal? Sure. But it's party friendly.

Sharing spells, right hurr. I was looking at mounts, not animal companions, i would've looked the stats up myself on the SRD but i was on my ipod.
I agree totally with the out of combat healing as said above, but i agree entirely here, we have one complete noob, and a guy who has just started playing this year and is mostly coming to grips with combat and combat economy, so i think they'll be screaming for heals ASAP, a wand of lesser vigor is only 750 gp so i could ask some of the others to chip in a bit.

I do very much like the idea of the riding dog horde xD I'll have a look at what i can do with handle animal........
Now if i could convince my DM to let me be a water halfling or a dragon-born air goblin..... or an Anthropmorphic bat, ideally... and get Zen Archery...

[Gavinfoxx]

No no the ONE riding dog -- unless you can convince your DM that the animals you use the 24 hour ritual to magically summon and then release STAY AROUND, and can then be given to a dog breeder and raiser, who will give you a discount on the pups and stuff cause OMG MAGICALLY CALLED DRUID DOG YAY! -- and a lot of mules. LOOK at the stats of Mule, in comparison to a level 2 fighter, and then look at the price of a Mule.

Anyway, here are three relevant handbooks:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10396.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

[Talya]

Edit: Gavin, I think if someone goes and tells the rest of their party to roll up ranged characters because you're powergaming enough to replace all of them, that someone should probably have things thrown at them, starting at dice and perhaps graduating to fists.

Ah yes, Gavin, but at least you shall discover the answer to the age old unprinted rules question:

What is the damage die, range increment, critical threat range, and multiplier of a DMG?

[Gavinfoxx]

...
Okay, yea, I probably deserved that.

...

I guess I get too excited about Druids?

Zooming out from the "OMG <3 <3 <3 DRUID!" bit, if you want to be a bit more sane, I guess you could go with the Shapeshift / Deadly Hunter / Druidic Avenger variants? They aren't as crazy, and let other folk shine.

Thinking back to it, in the actual real games I care about, after I get over the, "I want to play a Druid! Woohoo!" threshold, which, uh, I showed earlier there... I only roll up a druid like that AFTER talking to the DM and the other players and saying, "So... you are okay with this character being obscenely, insanely powerful, right?"

[NNescio]

Ah yes, Gavin, but at least you shall discover the answer to the age old unprinted rules question:

What is the damage die, range increment, critical threat range, and multiplier of a DMG?

1d6, 10 ft, 20/x2, half of damage dealt is nonlethal?

[Ursus the Grim]

...
Okay, yea, I probably deserved that.

...

I guess I get too excited about Druids?


Druids are fun. Probably my favorite class to play. So I can definitely understand reigning it back in. I often give my fellow players a choice. "Hey, do you want me to break the game and make sure we survive this, or do you prefer more fun and danger?"

Sometimes they pick option A, sometimes they pick B, so I still get my powergaming on occasionally.

[Elboxo]

No no the ONE riding dog -- unless you can convince your DM that the animals you use the 24 hour ritual to magically summon and then release STAY AROUND, and can then be given to a dog breeder and raiser, who will give you a discount on the pups and stuff cause OMG MAGICALLY CALLED DRUID DOG YAY! -- and a lot of mules. LOOK at the stats of Mule, in comparison to a level 2 fighter, and then look at the price of a Mule.

Anyway, here are three relevant handbooks:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10396.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0


Ooh poison handbook, nice, i know for a fact that the kobold bard will be using poison and intimidation to good use, so my own poisons could be nice.... not worth a feat for no chance to poison yourself though.....

EDIT: Master of Poisons.. apply poison as a swift action AND no chance of poisoning yourself.. me like

[Gavinfoxx]

Show the bard that feat. Remember as a Druid, you gain immunity to poisons from your class at 9th level. Also by that point you dont need to APPLY poison, you can just, you know, bite them or sting them or whatever.

[Elboxo]

Can you apply templates to your animal companion?

EDIT: If my DM allows, i'll get wild cohort, get a swindlespitter, be a jungle halfing, and ride my main animal companion: my riding dog

[Gavinfoxx]

Some DMs allow the arguably training based template 'Warbeast' for the Riding Dog. Most don't allow templates like Warbeast for the animal companions after that one, ie, once you switch to stronger, better animal companions, unless you take a bunch of months out from adventuring.

[faceroll]

Can you apply templates to your animal companion?

Warbeast (MMII) can be applied to any vermin or animal with a handle animal check. Gives +1 HD, +some stats, and some other stuff. Really clutch template.

I had used natural bond, warbeast, and wild cohort to all apply to a fleshraker animal companion in a game. That thing was beast. Had like 50% more HD than the party.

[Talya]

Warbeast (MMII) can be applied to any vermin or animal with a handle animal check. Gives +1 HD, +some stats, and some other stuff. Really clutch template.

I had used natural bond, warbeast, and wild cohort to all apply to a fleshraker animal companion in a game. That thing was beast. Had like 50% more HD than the party.

I would say applying warbeast is legit. Questionable, perhaps, but the question should ultimately be answered "yeah, that's fine."

Wild cohort stacking with AC on the same animal? I really don't think so... but if your DM will allow it, go to town!