Grappling Monk

[Jazmyn820]

I'm running a 3.5 ed game in which one of my players very much enjoys the concept of grappling and throwing his enemies into walls. I think he's taking the whole monk thing waaaay too seriously. Nonetheless, the concept of enemies literally flying across the battlefield is hilarious.
I was hoping for some advice on what rolls he should make. At this point I have him grappling the opponent, then on his next turn rolling a strength check. The DC and damage depend on attempted distance and what, exactly, the monster is hitting. Any thoughts on a more solid system? I can't find it in the books.

Cheers.

[Urpriest]

There's a Fling Enemy feat in Races of Stone. You should probably use that. There are also a bunch of throw maneuvers in Setting Sun, which he could access as a Swordsage, which is a better designed Monk.

[King Atticus]

I would make him take the Fling Enemy Feat from Races of Stone and just mod the prerecs to fit for his monk. It gives distances bases on grapple check vs either grapple or escape artist.


Edit: Swordsaged

[Flickerdart]

Monk can't get a high enough grapple modifier to successfully wrestle down anything that's a threat. If you want a nice SRD grappler, Orc Bear Totem Barbarian with a dip into Dragon Disciple is the no-frills way to go.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tashalatora Monk 1/ Psychic Warrior 19, get Expansion and Grip of Iron.

[ranagrande]

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale Psychic Warrior 2/Warmind 10/Anything 5

[Gavinfoxx]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

You should read that very carefully!

[hex0]

I played a half-orc monk (bonus fighter feat and no INT penalty in our games) level fifteen with a monks belt and improved natural attack. I was allowed to use the martial arts styles of Oriental Adventures, which helped a lot...I grappled a Marilith to death. srsly.

[Flickerdart]

I played a half-orc monk (bonus fighter feat and no INT penalty in our games) level fifteen with a monks belt and improved natural attack. I was allowed to use the martial arts styles of Oriental Adventures, which helped a lot...I grappled a Marilith to death. srsly.
Despite its better grapple, Constrict and Greater Teleport? If by some miracle it was losing, it could just leave, y'know.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, that's right... it's Monkday...

Honestly, I'm surprised no one has said 'go Swordsage', particularly when Setting Sun does this better. Heck, just look up Ballista Throw... launches your opponent quite a distance, doing damage when he lands. Just about exactly what he's wanting.

[ThiefInTheNight]

A Setting Sun-focused Swordsage would be perfect for this, and better yet, avoids a lot of the problems with the grappling rules.

[Keld Denar]

Half-Giant Tash-Monk could do grappling just fine. I'd go with a PsyWar chassis over an Ardent chassis just because of the amount of bonus feats you need to get Grappling to work, though. You'll want Monastic Training, Tash, Imp Grapple, Link Power, Fling Enemy, probably Superior UAS for better grapple damage, maybe Practiced Manifester and Psychic Meditation, Snap Kick for more attacks, and then the two easiest accessed forms of Constrict cost you 2 feats (Martial Study + Martial Stance for Crushing Roots of the Mountain OR Shape Soulmeld + Open Lesser Chakra for Kraken Mantle to Arms), then theres other cool stuff like Scorpion Grasp, not to mention Psicrystal Affinity for pet rock shanananananananananananananananiganery. So many feats, so few levels. You need that 2nd monk bonus feat to pick up Monastic Training, and you'll want those 2 PsyWar bonus feats at 3 and 4 to get your Psychic combo online. You can always get a few more PP from a Torc of Power Preservation (MIC version is cheap), or an Earth Node, or even Manifester arrow shanananananananananigans.

[Amphetryon]

Oh, that's right... it's Monkday...

Honestly, I'm surprised no one has said 'go Swordsage', particularly when Setting Sun does this better. Heck, just look up Ballista Throw... launches your opponent quite a distance, doing damage when he lands. Just about exactly what he's wanting.Urpriest did. In the first reply.

Don't let your friend take Reaping Mauler, no matter what.

[Keld Denar]

Friends don't let friends take Reaping Mauler and permanently lose all their class abilities if they get enlarged!

[Lord.Sorasen]

I want to say Tashalatora, but it's already been said. I'll say it again. Tashalatora.

Get powerful build access also. If he wants to throw things, sometimes the best way to go isn't actually grappling but knockback. For that, dungeoncrasher fighter isn't a bad choice either. I might try dungeoncrasher fighter 6/monk 1/psychic warrior X. Maybe barbarian 1 for bear totem. But that's pure conjecture, I don't know if it'd work at all. I honestly don't even know if the monk 1 would help with grappling other than through the free feat.

[ranagrande]

Reaping Mauler is a perfectly good prestige class for a grappler. Make sure you also have three levels in Stormwrack's Leviathan Hunter.

[Amphetryon]

Reaping Mauler is a perfectly good prestige class for a grappler. Make sure you also have three levels in Stormwrack's Leviathan Hunter.Please double-check the prerequisite feat "Clever Wrestling," on page 97 of the Complete Warrior. Now bounce to page 16 for the clause in Complete Warrior - and Complete Arcane - about what happens if you lose the prerequisites for your Prestige Class. Consider that, at mid-to-high levels, your Reaping Mauler will need to be at least Large size to be able to effectively use his shtick against a majority of the threats presented in the Monster Manuals as appropriate for those levels, and what happens to the Reaping Mauler when he becomes Large or larger.

Now, consider that the majority of threats from outside the Monster Manuals will have some magical means becoming larger for grappling, or escaping from or ignoring the grapple. Notice, also, that a Reaping Mauler needs a good STR, DEX, CON, and WIS in order to function, and that Devastating Grapple is largely replicated by a single feat. Add these together to consider the tactical disadvantage the Reaping Mauler will be at, for a majority of encounters.

While I suppose it does have niche uses, these factors weigh heavily against it when I consider whether Reaping Mauler is "a perfectly good prestige class".

[ranagrande]

Yes indeed.

Now I would refer you to Stormwrack and the Leviathan Hunter:

"To better resist such attacks, you gain Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat at 3rd level, even if you would not otherwise qualify for the feat."

That's the key to making Reaping Mauler a good choice. It's not uber by any means, and I agree that Devastating Grapple sucks, but it does give full BAB and a bonus to grappling.

[Feytalist]

Heh. Everytime I see a grappling thread I see this:

Why is everyone covering their dice? (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html)

But seriously, swordsage with Setting Sun maneuvres. Anything else is just a bonus.

[Person_Man]

Darrin's King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646) might be helpful to you.

[Big Fau]

Yes indeed.

Now I would refer you to Stormwrack and the Leviathan Hunter:

"To better resist such attacks, you gain Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat at 3rd level, even if you would not otherwise qualify for the feat."

That's the key to making Reaping Mauler a good choice. It's not uber by any means, and I agree that Devastating Grapple sucks, but it does give full BAB and a bonus to grappling.

Except the best way to grapple is to gain Size Categories, which outpace the Clever Wrestling feat dramatically.

Reaping Mauler is terrible because it requires you to forgo abilities that increase your Size Category. And adding in Leviathan Hunter just adds in more prerequisites that the Monk class doesn't meet.



@OP: Show him the Dungeoncrasher ACF (Dungeonscape) for the Fighter, or the entire Setting Sun discipline (Bo9S). Both of those do exactly what he wants to do, and are mechanically superior to the Monk class and the Grapple rules.

[Keld Denar]

Leviathon Hunter (Stormwrack), which he specifically mentioned, grants Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat along with the clause "even if you don't have the prereqs". Just like Monk's getting and using Stunning Fist at level 1 despite not having +8 BAB, this caveat allows a Leviathon Hunter to have and use Clever Wrestling despite any changes to his size. Thus, a X/Y/Z/LeviathonHunter4?/ReapingMauler3 would be an ok build, and could change size without permanently disqualifying itself from feats and PrCs.

That still doesn't make Reaping Mauler that much better. The death effect and knock out effect are too slow. A skilled grappler should be able to crush his enemy from HP damage in a turn or 2, or at the bare minimum, hold the foe still for his teammates to shishkabob. The more turns you spend grappling, the more vulnerable you are. You are better off with something like more PsyWar levels (on a Tash build) to get higher UAS damage or defensive powers like (Greater) Concealing Amorphia.

[Daitini Peck]

Added info for the game.

The monk is a 4th lvl, and a gnome.

[Big Fau]

Added info for the game.

The monk is a 4th lvl, and a gnome.

Oh god, he's doomed.


In all seriousness, Small sized with a class that doesn't work well with grappling is the worst combination he could possibly do. At least try to get him to multiclass into Swordsage so he can use Setting Sun to stand a remote chance.

[Keld Denar]

Yea...like, 50%+ of your grapple modifier at most levels comes from your size, and you NEED size in order to even ATTEMPT to grapple things that are big due to the <2 size difference rule.

I hate to say it, but there really isn't a way for the PC to do what he wants without either ToB or HEAVY HEAVY houseruling and maybe a custom item or 6.

[Amphetryon]

Point him to the Killer Gnome as an alternative?

[hex0]

Added info for the game.

The monk is a Level 2 Monk/Level 1 Psychic Warrior, and a Half-Giant. His feats are Monastic Training, Tashalatora, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp, and Psionic Fist

Here, I fixed this for you. :smallwink:

Has anyone though of the Monk/Psychic Rogue route for a grappler before? If you could get Ascetic Rogue to work, it may be worthwhile. You deal Sneak Attack Damage while grappling, after all. Later on you could grapple and mind cripple your foes. :smallamused:

[Keld Denar]

No, not quite. If one of your allies is grappling a foe, you are free to sneak attack the kidneys out of em, but if YOU are grappling a foe, neither of your are denied their dex WRT each other.

I've consider Tashing together Monk and PsyRogue, and how that would work with Ascetic Rogue, and it works out decently as a scirmisher, especially with Hustle, but it won't work out well as a grappler without spending a lot of feats on Expanded Knowledge to get the requisite powers.

[ranagrande]

So, you want to make a level 4 Gnome Monk into a good grappler? No problem.

Use the feat retraining rules in PHBII to get either Alertness or Endurance.

Take two levels of Ranger and get the other of Alertness or Endurance for your level 6 feat.

edit: Or delay your grappling awesomeness by one more level and go Ranger 3 to save yourself a feat.

Take one level of the Abolisher prestige class from Lords of Madness.

Then turn to Complete Adventurer and all ten levels of Master of Many Forms.

[Andorax]

... hold the foe still for his teammates to shishkabob.

Actually a combo I'm quite fond of. Grappler holds foe, rogue sneak-attacks foe to death (Denied dex bonus while in a grapple).



On another note, I seem to recall somewhere out there (Oriental Adventures Errata, I think) a "Great Throw" feat that, when you trip an opponent, allows you to land that opponent in any square you can reach.

[Keld Denar]

Races of Stone has Fling Enemy, which allows you to toss a foe with a sucessful grapple check, but it requires large size or Powerful Build.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Oh god, he's doomed.


In all seriousness, Small sized with a class that doesn't work well with grappling is the worst combination he could possibly do. At least try to get him to multiclass into Swordsage so he can use Setting Sun to stand a remote chance.
Yea...like, 50%+ of your grapple modifier at most levels comes from your size, and you NEED size in order to even ATTEMPT to grapple things that are big due to the <2 size difference rule.

I hate to say it, but there really isn't a way for the PC to do what he wants without either ToB or HEAVY HEAVY houseruling and maybe a custom item or 6.
These. A Gnome is never going to be successful at grappling. You need size and you need strength.

And, for completeness, Monk is adding almost nothing to this character: the damage is poor (with Monk 4, you get +1 damage on average over any Light Martial Weapon that you could be using in its place, and weapons can be Masterwork by 4th for the +1 to attack, plus you can have higher BAB), you could get the bonus feats almost as easily with Fighter (and without losing BAB, which is super-crucial to grappling), you lose Evasion while Grappling anyway, and you won't be moving Fast if you're Grappling. The saves are good but hardly astonishing. A Human Fighter 1/anything-with-full-BAB 3 would be better. A Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/anything-with-full-BAB 1 would be a lot better (especially if he aims for War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) in a couple of levels and gets Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)).

Swordsage would help the Gnome a lot, due to the different mechanics used by Setting Sun maneuvers (more similar to a Trip than a Grapple from a mechanics perspective, but the result is a throw), but Small size is still fairly painful. Still, Mighty Throw etc. don't depend heavily on BAB or attacks (so the lack of full BAB and the inability of easily enhancing one's fists matter less), can be used with Dex (so the Gnome's lack of Strength matters much less), plus the Swordsage would give a lot of flexibility to the character, that it sorely needs.

[Calanon]

Nothing to help for your building... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ)

If he sings that song while he does it give him a +5 bonus to his grapple!

[TwylyghT]

Just because it hasn't been spoken yet, Factotum can benefit grappling quite a bit. As long as you have the INT to make it work brains over brawn helps when every bit counts, and you can even pick up enlarge person with arcane dilettante. UMD yourself up a divine power and/or righteous might and go to town.