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View Full Version : DM in need of assistance: Get players to think outside the box



GoblinGilmartin
2011-09-13, 01:18 AM
When I DM, i always feel like the players think that they are in a videogame, with a beginning and an end, and a predetermined series of events to get from A to B. I want them to feel more at home in the worlds i create, I want my players to become player characters...

any tips?

Xiander
2011-09-13, 02:40 AM
When I DM, i always feel like the players think that they are in a videogame, with a beginning and an end, and a predetermined series of events to get from A to B. I want them to feel more at home in the worlds i create, I want my players to become player characters...

any tips?

Something which can work if you are up for it is presenting problems, without planning solutions. This leaves the ball in the players court, and they have to come up with a solution, forcing them to actually think.

Tytalus
2011-09-13, 02:51 AM
My recommendation: ease them in, don't overwhelm them. I found that these kinds of players tend to get frustrated dealing with situations that don't provide clear options.

Instead, present them with a problem, but provide several more or less obvious potential solutions (through NPCs, for example). Occasionally bring up a previously unknown alternative that would have worked even better - after the problem is already solved.

In my experience, that way they start to think about the problems, weighing their options. Eventually, they might even suggest their own.

Tzevash
2011-09-13, 05:14 AM
Just put them in a situation where they must CREATE their options, thinking about a plan, and without the feeling that certain things can't just be done. I quote Xiander! :smallwink:

Yora
2011-09-13, 08:46 AM
I've made the best experience with putting the characters into situations for which they don't have an obvious solution.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." If you put them next to a monster, they will try to kill it. They've encountered monsters before, and players in most groups have usually killed all of them. So they will try to kill this one as well. If they swords don't work, they will try other weapons and magic, but it will rarely occure to anyone to try something other than reducing it's hit points to 0.
If you want them to get creative, have them face situations for which there is nor an obvious solution.

Garwain
2011-09-13, 08:58 AM
Hand out harmless, weird magic items without apparent use.
I'm thinking of ring of Mage Hand, Feather tokens, etc. See if they can come up with an original use for it. Then reward them for it.

There are a ton of funny item on the interweb.

Gavinfoxx
2011-09-13, 10:57 AM
"Hey guys. At some point in this game session, I am going to place you into a fight with a monster which cannot be killed via hit point damage. Don't worry, I'll give you heads up in character, but I just wanted to tell you to think of some plausible options for obtaining victory that don't use your main schtick while we RP tonight. Also, the encounter is intentionally leaving the victory conditions fairly open -- it will come in a scenario where there are lots of possible ways to 'win', as in 'achieve your objective'.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-09-13, 11:40 AM
If you're not doing it already have the world react to them. Let them gain a reputation, which only makes sense if they're adventurers. But here's the thing, if they become really well known for being a group with a trap disabling rogue, a fighter that's really good with a sword, a wizard that REALLY likes Fireball and a healer that well.. heals. Guess what? Their opponents will after a while start using stuff that counters those habits, predictable is bad for adventurers after all.

Other than that I do like the ideas of putting them in situations with no obvious sollutions and giving them random, weird objects and magic items.

And if they do start thinking out of the box, but their inventory says they're lacking some basic items (say they need a grappling hook but forgot to buy it...) and cant' work around it, let them add it as long as they pay for it as normal, after all it's perfectly reasonable to think one of them picked up some stuff last time they were in town right?

KineticDiplomat
2011-09-13, 03:46 PM
Make situations where the most direct route will get you killed. Obviously so. Like blatantly, horribly, obviously so. Because otherwise they will try the most direct (and HP reducing) route. Then let them figure out an alternative.

Or there's the ever popular "players get used as pawns until they think to question otherwise". The standard D&D meta-game GM-player promise is:

I will present you with an NPC, and he will have you do something macguffin/mr. macguffin related. If you more or less agree, even the plot twists will turn out aok for you. If he betrays you, you will naturally kill him as the big bad. If not, you will kill the big bad for him. Hooray. In the course of the way, you will probably try some charm skills, and kill lots of stuff. Your survival chances may push up or down the bell curve depending on your tactics, but overall you are set in a story where you supposed to succeed (or whatever the thematic version of success is).

It works for your standard epic story arc. But a world with consequences, not so much. Make them think of the consequences before taking the quest. Give them open ended objectives. Consequences of performance. Even make completing the quest hazardous and requiring of much thinking.

To make that happen though involves something DnD shies away from: Don't be afraid to kill PCs. Don't make it your goal to kill them, but don't for a second spare them either. Because when "we charge the foe and swing our mighty axes and fireballs...every time, every foe, every door" starts resulting in a 50% mortality rate, creativity will begin.

valadil
2011-09-13, 07:40 PM
If you present your players with open ended problems and they struggle to find a solution, that's okay. They'll flounder a bit while they get used to the idea that you aren't giving them a multiple choice selection of possible answers. Most GMs have the impulse to throw the players a bone to keep them from getting bored, but it's imperative that you don't. You have to let them struggle to find a solution.

My other piece of advice is to embrace the parts of the RPG that aren't like a video game. React to what the players find interesting. If they like a particular NPC, write a plot around that NPC. You have the freedom to react to your players' interests by running with those interests. Do it.

DiBastet
2011-09-13, 08:06 PM
To make that happen though involves something DnD shies away from: Don't be afraid to kill PCs. Don't make it your goal to kill them, but don't for a second spare them either. Because when "we charge the foe and swing our mighty axes and fireballs...every time, every foe, every door" starts resulting in a 50% mortality rate, creativity will begin.

This is the basis of my advice. Some things just don't work the way the "basic premise" says. So not every encounter should end in bloodshed, not because of the plot, but because it's a bad idea to do so. So many times players expect "challenging, but appropriate and balanced encounters where they can use their abilities and make a difference", that when somehow they stumble on the lair of, say, a behir, when they are too low level to safely fight it, they will fight it, because they expect the DM to make balanced encounters. If they have to react to the world, instead of the world reacting to them (like, they have to prepare if they want to go the EL 12 troll mountain if they are level 7, instead of expecting EL +/- 8 encounters), soon they have to react, be creative, or at the very least choose if they should do this or not.

However, don't overdo it. For "plot related", specially pieces of the plot centered on the pc backstory / actual story, try to make it usualy level-appropriate. Just don't tell them it is level-appropriate to them, but insert it into the tale.

claricorp
2011-09-14, 11:52 PM
The key to this is laying some strong but basic groundwork, giving them an objective, with very few obvious paths to it.

Simple example is having the players in the city, where the party stumbles upon(or finds evidence pointing towards) the King performing a dark demonic ritual and having them end up in the city, while the King is in the castle/palace.

Having good groundwork here is important, simple stuff about the general history of the place, what the standing of the royalty is, what other groups know about the King and/or the party, etc.

The goal is to have them come up with creative ideas, if they spend a long time not doing anything, dropping a simple or basic clue, or idea may help them get the ball rolling.

An example of this, in our example would be, the King holding some kind of event, possibly a party or big speech or a contact of some kind, maybe a demonologist, or a noble person or a servant, whatever.

Try to have them get the ball rolling, they WILL get better at this the more open ended, yet goal based quests you give.

Acanous
2011-09-15, 12:33 AM
Have all of them secretly play the villain.

Yes, all of them.
Each player is secretly a member of some cult, kingdom, arcane order or other organization that has reason to want bad things to happen in the area they are currently adventuring. Part of this is also stalling any local heroes from fixing things before whatever the objective is met.

Most importantly is the directive to not get caught. It would blow the whole operation and galvanize the area against further outside influence.

Now supply each of your players with a couple NPC lackeys, a little "Villain" gold, and have them slip you notes after, before, or between session with the orders they give, resources they spend, and information they send back home.

they'll get into it, fast.

GoblinGilmartin
2011-09-15, 12:45 AM
Have all of them secretly play the villain.


they'll get into it, fast.

that definitely sounds interesting....i'll save that one for a while...

Mastikator
2011-09-15, 01:32 AM
Put them in a situation where you see no way out, like a stranded island with no way to phone home and no boat. They are also low on food and water.
Then they'll have to contrive a way.
(This of course doesn't work if they can just teleport out or something)

Xiander
2011-09-15, 04:20 AM
Put them in a situation where you see no way out, like a stranded island with no way to phone home and no boat. They are also low on food and water.
Then they'll have to contrive a way.
(This of course doesn't work if they can just teleport out or something)

Teleport does not invalidate this method, you just have to up the scale: A huge meteor is heading straight for the world, you have four days to come up with something.