Swashbuckler: Any good?

[Morquard]

I've been looking over the Swashbuckler class from CWar, and I'm wondering what's really so special about it. I heard a few times it's good, but can't figure out why, at least not at the low levels.

First, let me say the game I plan on playing in will not proceed past level 6, so really anything they get at high levels doesn't really concern me that much.

It just seems to me that picking a plain fighter and calling it "Swashbuckler" would seem better.
1st level you only get Weapon Finesse, can use the bonus feat for that.
2nd level Grace... oh really, that thing's a joke. If I really want it, spend the bonus feat on Lightning Reflexes, it's better too, but there are probably better choices to take here.
3rd level Ok that's kinda unique, but unless you really have high int the Weapon Specialisation feat does about equal damage.

On the other hand as fighter I also get medium/heavy armor (sure full plate doesn't exactly scream swashbuckler) and I can actually pick my bonus feats.

I just don't really get what's so great about this class?
Yeah I know the fighter isn't exactly considered good in 3.5, and that's exactly my point. If the fighter already matches or is better then the Swashbuckler can't be that awesome.

Or is it really just the high level stuff that people refer to when they talk about this class?

[Gnaeus]

Combined with 4 levels of rogue and the Daring Outlaw feat it is a very solid damage dealer.

(Daring outlaw lets your Swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack, so you look like a rogue with less skill points but 19/20 bab. It has some other smaller benefits as well).

[hex0]

I like the Swashbuckler a lot, though I think it could use some improvement. Maybe free Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Sidestep Charge? Enhancement to movement speed?

It makes a great 3 dip, especially for gishes in gestalt. The higher level abilities are nice but take a long time to get.

[Prime32]

Yeah, swashbuckler is pretty much a joke. The only mechanical reasons to take it are the bonus feat (and then only if you've already taken fighter 2) and Int to damage (with investment cost just slightly too high for most builds), and its fluff isn't distinct enough to take it for flavour reasons.

There's fighter, rogue, multiclass fighter/rogue, rogue with fighter feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), and fighter with sneak attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter). Any of those works better to represent a swashbuckler.

[Lans]

Its good for the skill points, weapon finesse, the intelligence to damage and the ability to charge over difficult terrain

If your going to be a finesse character your probably not going to use heavy armor any way so at level 1 its a weapon finesse and skills vs a bonus feat which is probably going to be weapon finesse.
Doesn't scale as good and the best thing is the ability to charge through difficult terrain, which has 6 or so dead levels till you get it, making it a rough choice to go above 3 levels.

So Fighter 16/Swash3/Barb1, before we get into ToB, MoI, ClClr and psionics

Its not really better than fighter just different.

[DarkEternal]

Honestly, what would make Swashbuckler much more awesome is if that class ability, forgot it's name, the one that allows you to reroll a save if you fail, any save(Something with luck in it's name) could be done every time you fail, not once a day.

[Jude_H]

Whoever said the Swashbuckler is powerful is probably not a person you should take mechanical advice from.


The one thing I'll say for the Swashbuckler is that it's one of those classes that's just boring enough to accept a free addition of other classes' mechanics without breaking anything. Bard-rate casting, Psychic Warrior-rate Manifesting or Warblade-rate maneuvers would all fit nicely, for a variety of Swashbucklery flavors.

[Talya]

Yeah, swashbuckler is pretty much a joke. The only mechanical reasons to take it are the bonus feat (and then only if you've already taken fighter 2) and Int to damage (with investment cost just slightly too high for most builds), and its fluff isn't distinct enough to take it for flavour reasons.

There's fighter, rogue, multiclass fighter/rogue, rogue with fighter feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), and fighter with sneak attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter). Any of those works better to represent a swashbuckler.

This isn't true. Swashbuckler 17/Rogue 3 with Daring Outlaw is better than any of those builds.

Swashbuckler's best uses all rely heavily on multiclassing. Swashbuckler 3 is a frequently useful multiclass in melee builds that rely on finesse and intelligence. However, the above build almost gives you everything a gestalt of rogue 20//swashbuckler 20 would give you. Is it great? No. It's quite playable, though.

[Eldariel]

It's good for Daring Outlaw, yeah. The Insightful Strikes is the reason it's taken. It also offers a better BAB chassis for Rogue in Daring Outlaw in case you want the last iterative and all that.

[Morquard]

I see, thank you.

[Essence_of_War]

Swash3/Rogue2 is a great five levels with Daring Outlaw.

A level of swordsage to ice it would allow you to pick up Shadow Blade and get Dex, Int, and Str to damage, as well as Dex,Wis to AC.

[Talya]

Swash3/Rogue2 is a great five levels with Daring Outlaw.

A level of swordsage to ice it would allow you to pick up Shadow Blade and get Dex, Int, and Str to damage, as well as Dex,Wis to AC.

I believe it needs to be Rogue 3/Swash 2, since daring outlaw requires 2d6 sneak attack.

[Curious]

Swash3/Rogue2 is a great five levels with Daring Outlaw.

A level of swordsage to ice it would allow you to pick up Shadow Blade and get Dex, Int, and Str to damage, as well as Dex,Wis to AC.

And be incredibly MAD. . .

[Talya]

And be incredibly MAD. . .


Kung Fu Genius!

[ranagrande]

I believe it needs to be Rogue 3/Swash 2, since daring outlaw requires 2d6 sneak attack.
Or better yet, Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A level of swordsage to ice it would allow you to pick up Shadow Blade and get Dex, Int, and Str to damage, as well as Dex,Wis to AC.

No Wis to AC.

[Essence_of_War]

This is what I get for trying to string things together without my books at hand :smallsmile:


If you think you might get to level 7, Swash3/Rogue4 is fine and quite dandy.
If you think 6 is the limit (E6?), then you're probably better off not messing around with the swashbuckler.

[Thespianus]

Rogue 2/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3 with the Craven feat gives a very respectable 4D6+6 Sneak Attack damage at level 6. A BAB of 5, so you won't get iterative attacks on a full attack, but it gives grreat value for money. ;)

Good feats are Craven (might not suit the flavor for everyone, though), Daring Outlaw at level 6, TWF if you want to offset the missing BAB and get an extra attack on a full attack.

By going Rogue 2, you also gain Evasion and a fistful of skillpoints.

[deuxhero]

I like the Swashbuckler a lot, though I think it could use some improvement. Maybe free Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Sidestep Charge? Enhancement to movement speed?

It makes a great 3 dip, especially for gishes in gestalt. The higher level abilities are nice but take a long time to get.

I thought they alreddy got Mobility?

[Gavinfoxx]

Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw, perhaps?

[Piggy Knowles]

How about... Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler X, with the Martial Study feat to pick up Assassin's Stance?

[Gnaeus]

How about... Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler X, with the Martial Study feat to pick up Assassin's Stance?

Probably strictly worse than Rogue 3, Swashbuckler x, Swordsage 1 taken after level 9

[Piggy Knowles]

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X/Swordsage 1 is a nice build stub in general, but kind of misses the point. My point is that...

1. A feat can give you Sneak Attack.
2. With Sneak Attack, you can qualify for Daring Outlaw, which lets your rogue levels and Swashbuckler levels stack for giving you sneak attack.
3. There is a rogue ACF that gives you feats instead of Sneak Attack.

It's a little cheesy, but the net result is that you get the bonus feats of the Feat Rogue while also getting Sneak Attack progression.

[Snails]

Swashbuckler is a fine class for someone who wants to play a lightly armored fighterish PC with a good Int. The big payout is in skills, both more skillpoints and a much better class skill list than the Fighter. A secondary payout is the mobility.

An optimizer might reasonably call into doubt whether skillpoints are valuable enough. My observation is that skills employed competently seem to be very enjoyable from most players' POV, even if they are not powerful. YMMV.

[Zaq]

Swashbuckler is a fine class for someone who wants to play a lightly armored fighterish PC with a good Int. The big payout is in skills, both more skillpoints and a much better class skill list than the Fighter. A secondary payout is the mobility.

An optimizer might reasonably call into doubt whether skillpoints are valuable enough. My observation is that skills employed competently seem to be very enjoyable from most players' POV, even if they are not powerful. YMMV.

Skills are very powerful when applied judiciously and in the right hands. You have to have the right tools to work with, though.

Basically, skills are as good as you make them be.

[Eldariel]

Swashbuckler is a fine class for someone who wants to play a lightly armored fighterish PC with a good Int. The big payout is in skills, both more skillpoints and a much better class skill list than the Fighter. A secondary payout is the mobility.

An optimizer might reasonably call into doubt whether skillpoints are valuable enough. My observation is that skills employed competently seem to be very enjoyable from most players' POV, even if they are not powerful. YMMV.

The bigger issue is that the class doesn't really get enough skill points; 4+Int isn't really a whole lot. Or ways to deal extra damage; one-hander approach is right out tho they make decent TWFers. This is where the Rogue-multiclassing with Daring outlaw comes in and makes them decent on both accounts.

[Talya]

Swashbucklers tend to prioritize int as high as dex (since they get INT to damage), so they end up with a fair number of skills for much the same reason as wizards do.

[Snails]

With Swashbuckler you will want high Dex and high Int, and Insightful Strike gives a plausible means to get by in melee without much Str bonus.

With, say, a 14 Int, that is 6 skillpoints. 6 skillpoints is quite good in this game if you have a good skill list. Overall, I would put the Swashbuckler on par in this respect with a Ranger, as the Ranger has less wiggle room to find a positive Int bonus.

After Acrobatic Charge, Swashbuckler has the typical anemia of melee base classes in the middling levels -- it is not really better or worse than the others.

Swashbuckler looks like a nice class to blend with. 3 levels of Swashbuckler are solid. From there one can go Rogue, or go gish by means that uses that Int bonus.

Starting with Swashbuckler is a promising place from where to go Dervish (5 Swash, or 3 Swash + 2 Fighter, or 3 Swash + 3 Cleric; then Dervish). A Dervish can be a huge number of attacks, so buffing both Str + Int is pretty promising. Again, I doubt these combos would wow any serious optimizer, but they look fun to play.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're not going to get Daring Outlaw (i.e. if you're only dipping three levels), then definitely get the Arcane Stunt ACF (CM) instead of Grace.

You could actually go Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16, or Feat Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4, and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance for Daring Outlaw, and still get 10d6 12d6 Sneak Attack at 20th level. It's nothing short of an exploit, but it's still nothing compared to a Power Attacker or a full spellcaster.

[Thespianus]

You could actually go Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16, or Feat Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4, and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance for Daring Outlaw, and still get 10d6 12d6 Sneak Attack at 20th level. It's nothing short of an exploit, but it's still nothing compared to a Power Attacker or a full spellcaster.

And I really don't think it's a viable exploit. With a Feat Rogue and Swashbuckler you have two classes that don't give you sneak attack damage. Stacking two classes that don't give you sneak attack damage results in no sneak attack damage (except for the Assassins Stance).

It's like stacking Ranger and Fighter for Arcane Spell Progression. Neither of the classes have arcane spell casting, so you can stack the classes all you want, it still yields nothing.

The feat Daring Outlaw says that your Rogue and Swashbuckler classes stack for purposes of determining your sneak attack damage. A Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 has no sneak attack damage from the two classes, so the "exploit" doesn't work.

[deuxhero]

^Sword of the Arcane Order.

[lostdrewid]

And I really don't think it's a viable exploit. With a Feat Rogue and Swashbuckler you have two classes that don't give you sneak attack damage. Stacking two classes that don't give you sneak attack damage results in no sneak attack damage (except for the Assassins Stance).

It's like stacking Ranger and Fighter for Arcane Spell Progression. Neither of the classes have arcane spell casting, so you can stack the classes all you want, it still yields nothing.

The feat Daring Outlaw says that your Rogue and Swashbuckler classes stack for purposes of determining your sneak attack damage. A Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 has no sneak attack damage from the two classes, so the "exploit" doesn't work.

It's a grey area. As with many things in D&D, sadly. No sane DM should allow it¹, but by the rules as they're written? Well, maybe. RAW is not always clear. But your argument is no more valid than his. The way the feat is written, it looks at rogue sneak attack progression. Not specifically his rogue. Obviously the way the rules are intended, his rogue is thought to have that progression naturally.

As a DM, if I had a player come to me with this, I'd shut it down.

¹ Granted, if you're the kind of DM who feels that melee needs all the help it can get [which I am], you might be inclined to think this is a good idea. I don't - I'd rather go with something a bit less fuzzy in legality - but I can see other DMs going for it. *shrugs* As has been said, your miles may vary :)

[Jude_H]

If you're not going to get Daring Outlaw (i.e. if you're only dipping three levels), then definitely get the Arcane Stunt ACF (CM) instead of Grace.
Daring Outlaw
Prerequisite: Grace +1, sneak attack +2d6.
What am I missing?
Edit:
Apparently, the "not." >.<

[lostdrewid]

What am I missing?

*shrugs?* I wasn't quite sure, myself. Grace is a level 2 class ability for Swashbucklers, so the only reason you wouldn't want it is if you're dipping Swashbuckler in a non-sneak attack build. But it's also required for Daring Warrior, so I don't know. As the class is written, replacing grace and disqualifying yourself for Daring Outlaw and/or Daring Warrior is about the worst mistake I could think of.

[Thespianus]

It's a grey area. As with many things in D&D, sadly. No sane DM should allow it¹, but by the rules as they're written? Well, maybe. RAW is not always clear. But your argument is no more valid than his. The way the feat is written, it looks at rogue sneak attack progression. Not specifically his rogue. Obviously the way the rules are intended, his rogue is thought to have that progression naturally.

As a DM, if I had a player come to me with this, I'd shut it down.)

I agree that it suffers from shoddy writing, and that might be all we need to say. To mention it as a viable build seems excessive, though, even it it is tagged as cheesy :-)

[noparlpf]

Swashbuckler/Rogues with Daring Outlaw do pretty well. The Improved Flanking ability is nice. Take one level of Tactical Soldier from I believe the Miniatures Handbook too, and then Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker. Designate yourself as in the square to their left using the Tactical Soldier's ability, and flank them from the square on their right using Adaptable Flanker. This allows you to use Swashbuckler-style weapons instead of reach weapons with Adaptable Flanker, and you still get extra damage from Sneak Attack.

[Talya]

Swashbuckler is also an ideal class to use spiked chain. (Finessable, so it works with all their abilities, and 2 handed, so they can use power attack to full advantage.) However, spiked chain isn't so good for their critical-focused abilities, where you want a pair of rapiers and OversizedTWF. Also, with INT bonus damage, TWF starts to become viable (but you need more than INT, hence daring outlaw.)

[Lord.Sorasen]

Would swashbuckler be any good for a wizard gish? It seems like int to damage wouldn't be too bad if you had high int anyway... But I think this says more about "I don't know how to mechanically build a gish" than the viability of such a class.

[Talya]

Would swashbuckler be any good for a wizard gish? It seems like int to damage wouldn't be too bad if you had high int anyway... But I think this says more about "I don't know how to mechanically build a gish" than the viability of such a class.

I like it better with Beguiler, but yeah. Would synergize fairly well if you used abjurant champion to help out your gish, too. (Then you don't need armor.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would swashbuckler be any good for a wizard gish? It seems like int to damage wouldn't be too bad if you had high int anyway... But I think this says more about "I don't know how to mechanically build a gish" than the viability of such a class.

As long as you can still get 9th level spells and a +16 BAB by 20th level, it can work for a gish. A Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 fits that perfectly. It's a bit further behind in spellcasting than most gish builds for the first 2/3 of its career, and you're lacking medium and heavy armor proficiency for low level survivability, but it's still a viable gish build in the higher levels. Definitely use Martial Wizard to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll, and this is a case when Arcane Stunt would probably be a better choice than Grace. Be sure to use (Greater) Luminous Armor as soon as it's available, and take a Wizard level at 3rd for the skills to get Practiced Spellcaster.

[Thespianus]

Swashbuckler is also an ideal class to use spiked chain. (Finessable, so it works with all their abilities, and 2 handed, so they can use power attack to full advantage.) However, spiked chain isn't so good for their critical-focused abilities, where you want a pair of rapiers and OversizedTWF. Also, with INT bonus damage, TWF starts to become viable (but you need more than INT, hence daring outlaw.)

You don't reeeally want Oversized TWF, do you? Rapier/Kukri is a lot more Feat friendly. You won't be Power Attacking with your off hand anyway. And it's usually good to have multiple damage types (piercing and slashing)

Or is there some secret super-trick with the otwf rapiers?

[Talya]

You don't reeeally want Oversized TWF, do you? Rapier/Kukri is a lot more Feat friendly.


I'd rather use a pair of kukris than rapier/kukri. The only reason I mentioned dual rapiers is for the power attack possibilities. I always like matching the weapons in each hand, if possible, anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd rather use a pair of kukris than rapier/kukri. The only reason I mentioned dual rapiers is for the power attack possibilities. I always like matching the weapons in each hand, if possible, anyway.

Take Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW) if you're an Elf, and you can use the Elven Lightblade, Thinblade, and Courtblade in RotW. The Thinblade is an exotic 1d8 rapier, the Lightblade is the same thing but it's a 1d6 light weapon, and you can even get Improved Critical: Rapier and it applies to both of those swords. If you take Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) your free Weapon Focus: Rapier will also apply to both of those. Proficiency with the Courblade is free if you're already getting Improved Weapon Familiarity, and it's just as good as a spiked chain for power attacking, plus a finesseable greatsword is just awesome.

[Thespianus]

The only reason I mentioned dual rapiers is for the power attack possibilities. I always like matching the weapons in each hand, if possible, anyway.
Yeah, I figured it was for PA damage, but that's not a good game to play for a TWF character.

I assume the matching weapon idea is for aestetics? I'm the other way around, I love the "traditional" TWF layout: Longer sword/ shorter blade.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, I figured it was for PA damage, but that's not a good game to play for a TWF character.

I assume the matching weapon idea is for aestetics? I'm the other way around, I love the "traditional" TWF layout: Longer sword/ shorter blade.

Personally, for aesthetics, I usually prefer either matching short swords or one longer sword and one shorter sword. Mechanically, matching weapons is easier (though the Tempest PrC lets Weapon Focus and the like work for each without having to take it twice or get Aptitude weapons).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tempest is horrible, Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) and Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire) are probably your best race choices for a Swashbuckler already, and with Improved Weapon Familiarity you can get Weapon Focus and Improved Critical each once for Rapier and apply each to both a Thinblade and a Lightblade.

[Talya]

Yeah, I figured it was for PA damage, but that's not a good game to play for a TWF character.

I assume the matching weapon idea is for aestetics? I'm the other way around, I love the "traditional" TWF layout: Longer sword/ shorter blade.

there are mechanical reasons too, but they don't always come into play. (Weapon-specific feats and such. Not optimal, but sometimes you end up with them due to prereqs, or simply because sometimes they're not terrible choices.)

[Thespianus]

Mechanically, matching weapons is easier
True, but I prefer to have one slashing, one piercing and one bludgeoning weapon available. Rapier/Kukri does this easiest, while retaining a good crit range. Granted, if you aim for Improved Critical, you only wanna take that trap of a feat once, so matching weapons works best there.

[hex0]

Yeah, I figured it was for PA damage, but that's not a good game to play for a TWF character.

It is if you pull the old Greataxe and Armor Spikes combo.

[Grendus]

Swashbuckler is decent for a wizard gish, but given the option I'd go warblade. Every gish build I've ever made (barring the sorcadin, which can have beyond ridiculous saves) has horrible reflex saves, and being able to add your int to reflex saves is powerful. Plus it opens you up for Jade Phoenix Mage, which is a good caster/initiator PrC if you're into that sort of thing. Something like Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 gives you 17th level casting, 15th level warblade maneuvers, 17 BAB, and some wicked stances and maneuvers. Not bad at all.

The most common uses for Swashbuckler I've seen are for Daring Outlaw or dipping for the feats. Int->Damage isn't that impressive at higher levels, and Grace reminds me of the Monk's bonus to AC - too little, too late. It's a sad little class really, the Swashbuckler is such a flavorful archtype. It would have been better as a rogue ACF than a full class (trade trap sense and delay uncanny dodge to be able to feint as a move action, and later as a swift action, as long as you're only wielding a single one handed weapon... it'd be tempting. I wouldn't build a rogue around it, but it might be worth the trade off on a melee rogue for when you can't find a flanking buddy).

[Elric VIII]

Swashbuckler is decent for a wizard gish, but given the option I'd go warblade. Every gish build I've ever made (barring the sorcadin, which can have beyond ridiculous saves) has horrible reflex saves, and being able to add your int to reflex saves is powerful. Plus it opens you up for Jade Phoenix Mage, which is a good caster/initiator PrC if you're into that sort of thing. Something like Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 gives you 17th level casting, 15th level warblade maneuvers, 17 BAB, and some wicked stances and maneuvers. Not bad at all.

Keep in mind that it is limited by your Warblade level, not IL.



A few levels of Wizard with Fighter bonus feat and Haste makes for a pretty cool Swiftblade build. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Swiftblade 10/Wizard +1 is a low-op gish build that I have been kicking around a bit.

You can grab EWP: Spiked Chain or Courtblade, PA, and even Arcane Thesis/Easy Metamagic to persist your Wraithstrike in a 6th level slot. Also, Arcane Thesis + Extended Wraithstike is just awesome, you can touch attack for 2 rounds in a row for no adjustment.

[Gavinfoxx]

I like swashbucklers fighting with two Kukris.

[Grendus]

Keep in mind that it is limited by your Warblade level, not IL

Missed that. So, not as good. But still, Swashbuckler gish is underwhelming, int->damage isn't enough to warrant three levels.

[Thespianus]

It is if you pull the old Greataxe and Armor Spikes combo.
Not really a Swashbuckler's cup of tea, though, is it? ;)

[hex0]

Not really a Swashbuckler's cup of tea, though, is it? ;)

Hey, you GET weapon finesse...doesn't mean you have to USE it! :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

ARGH, I wish the game supported, you know, Cut and Thrust Sword (IE, Side Swords + Buckler as a Swashbuckler option...

Those were what Swashbucklers USED. They swashed their bucklers with their (non rapier) swords to intimidate people... >.>

The closest thing I can see in this in D&D is a character with a finesseable longsword, maybe? or... perhaps...

The closest stats I can figure is... *checks some resources* ... a reflavored Dragonspit from Monster Manual IV, assuming you completely ignore the existing flavor of that item. >.>

[Elric VIII]

Missed that. So, not as good. But still, Swashbuckler gish is underwhelming, int->damage isn't enough to warrant three levels.

Well, yeah, and any gish is underwhelming compared to 20th level Wizard casting. Swashbuckler gish is a bit lower in power (you're somewhere between Bard and Sorcerer), but it makes for a very cool image.

I imagine a large-brimmed hat and a robe-like duster, gracefully trailing behind a lightly armored man that uttered a few arcane words then proceeded to fly at you from his perch on the ship's mast while he draws a rapier sheathed in arcane energy. Also, I think he would be loudly humming the Pirates of the Caribbean theme song.

[Prime32]

ARGH, I wish the game supported, you know, Cut and Thrust Sword (IE, Side Swords + Buckler as a Swashbuckler option...

Those were what Swashbucklers USED. They swashed their bucklers with their (non rapier) swords to intimidate people... >.>

The closest thing I can see in this in D&D is a character with a finesseable longsword, maybe? or... perhaps...

The closest stats I can figure is... *checks some resources* ... a reflavored Dragonspit from Monster Manual IV, assuming you completely ignore the existing flavor of that item. >.>Elven thinblade is a finessable longsword, basically. Though there is no sword in D&D which can be used for both slashing and thrusting unless you count daggers.

[Lucid]

You could actually go Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16, or Feat Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4, and get Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance for Daring Outlaw, and still get 10d6 12d6 Sneak Attack at 20th level. It's nothing short of an exploit, but it's still nothing compared to a Power Attacker or a full spellcaster. It's a questionable exploit, and for a very low benefit. You have to wait til lvl 10 to take Feat Rogue 4 for Martial Stance, and Daring Outlaw at level 12.
I think it's better to go with Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 15, taking SS at level 9. This gets you 6 maneuvers of up to level 3, and sneak attack from first level. The only thing you'd lose would be one fighter feat.

[Grendus]

Well, yeah, and any gish is underwhelming compared to 20th level Wizard casting. Swashbuckler gish is a bit lower in power (you're somewhere between Bard and Sorcerer), but it makes for a very cool image.

I imagine a large-brimmed hat and a robe-like duster, gracefully trailing behind a lightly armored man that uttered a few arcane words then proceeded to fly at you from his perch on the ship's mast while he draws a rapier sheathed in arcane energy. Also, I think he would be loudly humming the Pirates of the Caribbean theme song.

For some reason, that description just screams Bard to me. Maybe have the Swashbuckler as a Bard ACF instead - replace bardsong with... well, with the entire Swashbuckler list of class features. Would turn the bard into a good gish out of the box, instead of needing to hunt down six different splats to turn them into their usual jack of all trades, master of several.

And it's not like it's impossible to have a swashbuckler gish with 9th level spells. Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 gets to cast as a level 17 wizard, same as the Warblade gish. The difference being mostly that the swashbuckler gets int->damage and free weapon finesse, while the warblade gish gets the martial adept goodness.

[Elric VIII]

For some reason, that description just screams Bard to me. Maybe have the Swashbuckler as a Bard ACF instead - replace bardsong with... well, with the entire Swashbuckler list of class features. Would turn the bard into a good gish out of the box, instead of needing to hunt down six different splats to turn them into their usual jack of all trades, master of several.


A Bard is a good gish out of the box. This is just an alternate strategy to get there. Compared to the Bard, you end up with slightly higher BAB, same level spells from a more powerful list, and some nifty Haste-based abilities (instead of IC/DFA).

You can get a similar result via Bard 7/Crusader or Warblade 1/Swiftblade 2/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade+8. It's really all a matter of preference.



And it's not like it's impossible to have a swashbuckler gish with 9th level spells. Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 gets to cast as a level 17 wizard, same as the Warblade gish. The difference being mostly that the swashbuckler gets int->damage and free weapon finesse, while the warblade gish gets the martial adept goodness.

Warblade 3 gets 5 maneuvers known and 1 1st level stance. Assuming you decide that getting better maneuvers trumps that d12 HD at level 1, your WB levels will be spread out a bit more.

Something like: Wizard 4/Warblade 1 (IL 3)/Wizard +2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Warblade +1 (IL 7)/Sacred Exorcist 4/Warblade +1 (IL 9)/Sacred Exorcist +1.

This grants you 1 1st level stance, 3 level 2 maneuvers and one level 4 and 5 maneuver at levels 5, 14, and 19, respectively. While they are really great, I'm not entirely sure they are a significant power boost. Personally, I would grab all of the Concentration-to-saves maneuvers, Emerald Razor, and Sudden Leap.

Swashbuckler may not be as powerful as some other wizard gish options, but that's not always the point. If you want to play a strong Wizard, you go for Incantrix. If you want to play a strong gish, you go DMM Persist Cleric.