Encounter levels and parties [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

While converting AGDQ, I find myself constantly trying to guess and work with whether the encounters they made for 2nd edition parties are too strong or too weak for the party I plan to run through it.

Just with A1- Slave Pits of the Undercity, there are 4 encounters that come to mind. One concerns a surprise attack by 2 Ghasts and 8 Ghouls, one is 6 Orc Warriors, one is 4 Harpies and one is 3 Half-Orc Fighters in Full-plate, a Cleric, a hidden Half-Orc Rogue and a Troll who appears 2 rounds later. And this entire section is meant for a party of level 4 to 7.

Does anyone have a reliable encounter calculator (I've tried using the one from WoTC and the one from the Creature Calculator from Enworld) or a formula they use or even a good rule of thumb?

Thanks in advance.

[BlueInc]

Well... (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#TOC-Step-2-Determine-CR)

Ghasts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghoul/ghast) are CR 2 and Ghouls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghoul) are CR 1. Using 8 creatures supposedly increases the CR by 6, making it approximately a CR 8 encounter by my reckoning. 6 level one orc warriors would be about a CR 5 encounter.

Best rule of thumb is that any encounter with far fewer actions per round than the party is at a serious disadvantage (e.g. party of five is going to have a fairly easy time with one baddie); far more actions per round than the party has (e.g. party of three is probably going to be overwhelmed by a dozen mooks) are a recipe for danger.

This also depends on the power level of the opponents and your party's optimization/AoE abilities.

[Essence_of_War]

To answer the general question, I don't know of any that take into account the intricacies of encounter planning anywhere near as well as a person.

Eyeballing the specific examples:
1) Ghasts+Ghouls - if the party is surprised this could be a very tough encounter. Assuming the ghasts are smart enough to make optimal use of their stench, and paralysis, and with an int of 13, they probably should be, people with bad fort saves could get totally removed from combat, and the party could get out actioned.

2) Orcs - if they're straight outta the MM (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/orc) played at int 7, this should be an easy encounter.

3) Can you give more info on this one? What level are the clerics, fighters, and rogues here?

[BlueInc]

3) Can you give more info on this one? What level are the clerics, fighters, and rogues here?

This.

Also, group makeup of the party is going to play a large role here.

A level 5 cleric who channels positive energy could do 3d6 damage (an average of 10.5) to undead in an area of effect; a few rounds of that and all of the ghouls are toasted. A level 5 wizard with fireball might be able to one-shot the warriors if they're grouped up.

The last encounter...is probably going to be a tough fight without a bit of luck. A troll by itself is a CR 5 encounter, nevermind 5 enemies with class levels working together.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, as I said, I'm converting a 2nd edition adventure to 3.PF, so I can't really give you the exact levels of the creatures in the final example.

I'm also replacing the Orcs and Half-Orcs with Goatfolk (MMIII) and a few Changelings here or there since Orcs and Half-Orcs won't work with the setting being Eberron.

The Ghast/Ghoul fight I already cut down to just 3 Ghouls.

The encounters I listed aren't ones I was writing or planning to write, they were just straight lifted from the A1 book.

And thanks for your input; guess that's what I get for buying Pathfinder's GM book and not even reading it. :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

it is entirely dependant on your party. What are they, how are they optimized?
A run-of-the-mill group that plays because it's fun is going to be destroyed by the ghasts, the orcs would be expected and easy, and the troll at the end would get a book thrown at you.

A mid-optimized party of experienced gamers who play what they love and work together well would handle all of it, maybe with a death somewhere depending on dice rolls.

A High-op party that hits discussion forums and plans their builds with 3-5 splatbooks and already early-entried into a prestige class each by level 5, would obliterate the ghasts and ghouls, plan for more undead, roll over the orcs, and would be momentarilly satisfied by the 5 PC level baddies +troll. If the baddies are around the same class level they are.

[Safety Sword]

Also, group makeup of the party is going to play a large role here.

Three schools of thought:

The bad guys are there and the party that comes, comes.
You think about your encounter to the detail where you've already made all of the decisions you think your party will make (:smallbiggrin:)for your party and you know how it will go (I wish there was a "doomed to fail emoticon")
Something in between


You're probably best not to try to counter party abilities or play to their strengths too much, all the time. It makes things a little boring.

If an encounter is too tough for your characters they should withdraw... or die. Their choice. :smallamused:

[Tanuki Tales]

it is entirely dependant on your party. What are they, how are they optimized?
A run-of-the-mill group that plays because it's fun is going to be destroyed by the ghasts, the orcs would be expected and easy, and the troll at the end would get a book thrown at you.

A mid-optimized party of experienced gamers who play what they love and work together well would handle all of it, maybe with a death somewhere depending on dice rolls.

A High-op party that hits discussion forums and plans their builds with 3-5 splatbooks and already early-entried into a prestige class each by level 5, would obliterate the ghasts and ghouls, plan for more undead, roll over the orcs, and would be momentarilly satisfied by the 5 PC level baddies +troll. If the baddies are around the same class level they are.

Two of the five don't optimize and don't really know what is mechanically good or bad. I tend to coach them a little and let them know when they've made sub-optimal choices and try to help and suggest better avenues that they sometimes take.

One tends to build things more for the flavor but he tends to build better than the previous two and is more likely to come to me to ask if he made suboptimal choices and how to fix them if he feels they need fixing.

One is brand new and learning the game so he's an unknown quandary.

The last one....

......

I'm really trying hard to think of him as an "accidental munchkin" and that he doesn't mean to be one.

I've only heard second hand the nightmare headaches he gave the group when playing an Unarmed Force User is the Sagas game I didn't take part in.

And he rolls very well. Must be cheating, though he never does, well. I'm never worried on him.