Sith in the party? (Saga)

[Alejandro]

Back with another Star Wars Saga question. This time, not so much about a race, or even a game mechanics issue, but rather this:

One of the potential players has decided they'd like to make a Sith PC. Not the actual race, but still a follower of the Dark Side of the Force. The party will have two Jedi in it. The player wanting to make the Sith says they will frame it in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" light, and thus help these Jedi destroy Dark Jedi, Sith, etc, because as Sith himself, he wants to destroy other Dark Jedi so they cannot threaten him. The player has a history of wanting to play the evil PC in a party of good/neutral PCs, and it's ended badly before. I don't expect the other players, especially the Jedi, to feel comfortable about, or want, a Dark Jedi/Sith around.

So. What do you think I should do?

[Icestorm245]

No, because Sith only has one apprentice and one master at all times. Just make him a rogue jedi with a penchant for using the dark side of the force, like the lightning attack and the choke.

[KoboldCleric]

Just tell the player up front that although his character concept is an interesting one, the rest of thep layers at the table aren't comfortable with the sort of situations and party dynamic that such a concept would create. This particular game is designed around the party being the knights in shining armour/save the galaxy good guys and it would be much appreciated if he would make a character to fit with that theme. Then offer that if this campign goes well then the next one could be centered around the sort of themes for which his current character concept is better suited.

[Alejandro]

Can't really do that. I have never followed the rule of two. It sucked for gameplay purposes that the entire galaxy only had two Dark Jedi in it. Plus, the game is set after the Battle of Endor and there can be Force users of all kinds out there, after the dust settled.

[Arbane]

The player has a history of wanting to play the evil PC in a party of good/neutral PCs, and it's ended badly before. I don't expect the other players, especially the Jedi, to feel comfortable about, or want, a Dark Jedi/Sith around.

I'd say, "Not just no, HELL NO." He can either play nice, or not play.

Now I'm thinking that playing the Token Evil Guy is just another sort of munchkinism - trying to get away with stuff the other PCs won't be able to, and relying on "team spirit" not to have them kill you or hand you over to the cops.



Can't really do that. I have never followed the rule of two. It sucked for gameplay purposes that the entire galaxy only had two Dark Jedi in it.

That rule never made any sense to me.

To quote some wiseacre on RPG.net: "When their archenemies' master plan was overwhelming numerical inferiority, it's not hard to see why the Jedi got overconfident." :smallbiggrin:

[Galanar]

Saga, how close to legacy?

Darth Caedus is the perfect example on the rationale a jedi has to follow to fall to the dark side.

If your player is willing to play without a lightsaber and you are playing ABY he can be a "weird force user" and only in the most blatant moments should the jedi intervene.

He may be a creature of the dark side yet jedi will not kill him unless he is using dark side powers infront of them against an innocent.


Also Hubris, with some social skills a jedi can think that they can turn him to the light if only trained properly.

A "repentant" Dark side user could travel with them to learn to do the right thing.

If he wants to be a Sith openly he needs to have a lever on the jedi like a temple full of orphans ransomed somewhere unless they help him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also a *HUGE* difference between a Dark Jedi and a Sith Master. The former had actual Jedi Academy training, such as Anakin (Vader). Sith Masters never went to Jedi training, they developed their Force abilities in other ways (Palpatine/Sideous).

If you are playing post-battle of endor, then there's some wiggle room, if you like. IIRC, a whole philisophy akin to Buddhism's 'middle way' springs up around Luke's school, wherin both Light and Dark are examined, pros and cons are weighed, and both are drawn upon for various reasons.

I could even see a Sith wanting to exterminate dark jedi, but the problem is that it will ultimately be for selfish reasons. And eventually, when the goal is complete, he'll turn on the jedi next.

In other words, he's setting you up for PvP, so if that's not what you want, swing the 'NO' bat at him.

[Calanon]

No, because Sith only has one apprentice and one master at all times. Just make him a rogue jedi with a penchant for using the dark side of the force, like the lightning attack and the choke.

Darth Krayt removed the rule of two (It was a stupid rule anyway...if you had a lightsaber you were pretty much god since nobody knew how to take down a Jedi)



Darth Caedus is the perfect example on the rationale a jedi has to follow to fall to the dark side.

I love you :smallwink:

ANYWAY~ Once i played in a game where i was a Sith (pretending to be a Jedi) worked out pretty well... they didn't suspect me at all (I shot lightning and chocked like... everyone i fought >_>) DM had to bend some rules though... (Gave me an ancient sith amulet that supressed my Dark side Aura)

In the end the temptation to kill my Jedi "brothers" was to much and I tried to kill them (please note: "Tried") ah well :smalltongue:

[Xtomjames]

There's nothing wrong with it per se, just set a rule that he can't do party kills. You as the DM could even use it to further the plot and it will give you more control on his actions as a "sith". Make him undercover so the other players don't know, create a new Sith Lord that isn't part of the main group that is directing him to attack the other Sith via any means.

Rather than blatantly saying no, find a way to work with it so all the players are happy. You could build a very good storyline with his character.

In fact I'll even give you a run to intro for his character. Have him approach the main group to ask for help, set up a gateway of trust. Have him use a cool colored light saber and explain how he became a "jedi" with a cover story. Any communication with the new Sith Lord you've created can be done via passing notes and in secret. It will add an air of mystery to the group and give them something to solve that isn't immediate.

[elonin]

There's nothing wrong with it per se, just set a rule that he can't do party kills. You as the DM could even use it to further the plot and it will give you more control on his actions as a "sith". Make him undercover so the other players don't know, create a new Sith Lord that isn't part of the main group that is directing him to attack the other Sith via any means.

Rather than blatantly saying no, find a way to work with it so all the players are happy. You could build a very good storyline with his character.

In fact I'll even give you a run to intro for his character. Have him approach the main group to ask for help, set up a gateway of trust. Have him use a cool colored light saber and explain how he became a "jedi" with a cover story. Any communication with the new Sith Lord you've created can be done via passing notes and in secret. It will add an air of mystery to the group and give them something to solve that isn't immediate.

If that is in effect then the party shouldn't be allowed to kill him either when they find him to be a sith. Depending on the group it could be interesting for a player to be a hidden sith. Though the first time they saw his red light saber the game would be done.

[Alleran]

The Sith of the Fate of the Jedi series temporarily allied with the Jedi against a greater evil (Abeloth).

Sure, they backstabbed them eventually and the Jedi managed to turn one of their number to the light side in the process, but they did work together for a (short) period of time.

[The Glyphstone]

Back with another Star Wars Saga question. This time, not so much about a race, or even a game mechanics issue, but rather this:

One of the potential players has decided they'd like to make a Sith PC. Not the actual race, but still a follower of the Dark Side of the Force. The party will have two Jedi in it. The player wanting to make the Sith says they will frame it in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" light, and thus help these Jedi destroy Dark Jedi, Sith, etc, because as Sith himself, he wants to destroy other Dark Jedi so they cannot threaten him. The player has a history of wanting to play the evil PC in a party of good/neutral PCs, and it's ended badly before. I don't expect the other players, especially the Jedi, to feel comfortable about, or want, a Dark Jedi/Sith around.
So. What do you think I should do?

This is like asking if you should trust the multiple conviction alcoholic drug dealer when he volunteers to bring your beer and prescription medication home for you. Listen to your instincts and tell him NO. It's not being unfair or stifling his roleplaying - in fact, the proposed solutions of 'let him do it, but ban PvP' are stifling his RP more.

[Dreadn4ught]

Are the Jedi really not comfortable with a Sith in the party?

As long as he's not COMPLETELY evil, like killing innocents for no reason evil, it should be fine.

Also, Jedi who study the Dark Side of the force are not ALWAYS totally bad people, there are some good people who will sometimes call upon the Dark Side.

[Alejandro]

I was going to challenge the player wanting to play the Sith, to present a way he could do so to the players playing the Jedi, and see if he can convince them. Trust me, that will be hard.

[The Awesome]

I absolutely agree with The Glyphstone. This has been an issue for your group in the past, and if you allow it again, you can be certain it will end in frustration for everyone... again.

[flumphy]

Are the Jedi really not comfortable with a Sith in the party?

As long as he's not COMPLETELY evil, like killing innocents for no reason evil, it should be fine.

Also, Jedi who study the Dark Side of the force are not ALWAYS totally bad people, there are some good people who will sometimes call upon the Dark Side.

Normally, I would agree with this. Unless a player gave me reason to believe they would play the concept disruptively, I would allow it.

However, past experience indicates that this player likely will play the concept disruptively, so it's perfectly reasonable not to let him play it. For the sake of the other players, you're almost obligated not to do so.

[Alejandro]

In the past, the player played a neutral evil assassin in a party of good PCs. He did some helpful things for us, but eventually murdered another PC when they would not pay an extortion of gold to him. We then killed him.

[katarl]

Darth Krayt removed the rule of two (It was a stupid rule anyway...if you had a lightsaber you were pretty much god since nobody knew how to take down a Jedi)

I've never heard this before, can you cite the source? I'm very interested in this sort of thing.

The way I explained it to my dm was that since Sith are individuals, and not an organisation (in saga timeline), there is no way they'd be able to communicate. Therefore, there could many Sith 'cells' existing throughout the galaxy with no knowledge of the others. This particularly works if we consider primitive or isolated worlds that the Sith once settled that have no links to the Inner Rim. Sith Lords could be popping up all over the place there, since the only requirement is being powerful enough that nobody objects.

Or, perhaps they just screw the rules, because they're Sith.

[Coidzor]

So. What do you think I should do?

Get a new player if he's repeatedly been a problem and all efforts to use
reason on him to stop being an ass have failed.

If you haven't used reason on him yet, try that, I'm sure some strategies have been suggested already.

This series (http://www.rpg.net/columns/building/building1.phtml) may have some food for thought for you as well.


Just tell the player up front that although his character concept is an interesting one,

It's older than 2nd Edition, how is that interesting?


In the past, the player played a neutral evil assassin in a party of good PCs. He did some helpful things for us, but eventually murdered another PC when they would not pay an extortion of gold to him. We then killed him.

Neutral Evil Ninja Assassin Drow, much? (http://www.rpg.net/columns/building/building16.phtml)

[Alejandro]

He's a great player. Intelligent, friendly, mature. He just loves to play evil characters, or at least, always more evil than the other PCs as a whole are. It's happened in D&D and Mage as well.

[The Glyphstone]

He's a great player. Intelligent, friendly, mature. He just loves to play evil characters, or at least, always more evil than the other PCs as a whole are. It's happened in D&D and Mage as well.

Someone who gets his jollies from PvPing and backstabbing his fellow players, and can't enjoy a game where he's not allowed to be a jerk to other people, is not what I would call mature.

[Coidzor]

He's a great player. Intelligent, friendly, mature. He just loves to play evil characters, or at least, always more evil than the other PCs as a whole are. It's happened in D&D and Mage as well.

Mature? When you've admitted he can't keep from disrupting the game?

I find the use of this term incongruous with the rest of your description.

[Alejandro]

Well, look. It's not constant. He played an entire, real life year long plus 3.5 campaign as a lawful good cleric/paladin. He was arrogantly lawful good and holy, but was always there to defend each party member, heal them, keep them going, defend them. And he did it even though he didn't really want to play the healer, but did so anyway because no one else had.

He's also played a loyal and generally good Star Wars character, again for real years, that never betrayed or hurt anyone but his enemies.

It's just that, sometimes, he apparently gets tired of being good or neutral and wants to be evil, and he is really good at playing Evil.

[Galanar]

Ok some rules to play a sith in a jedi party and get away with it

rule 1, theres no betrayal if there is no trust.
rule 2, clever sith usually do not show themselves as one.
rule 3, do not do what others can do for you.
rule 4, fastest way to the dark side is grief.
rule 5, pity is for fools.

This means, if he wants to play a sith he should be a clever one, "my master died long ago, and sometimes my will falters, having you as an example will make me more stable", then follow them like a lap dog, making small comments to make them rethink some points of view "surely keeping the credits of those thugs is not theft right?, they were thieves themselves even if they had families"

"You had to kill him you could not take the risk of him firing that blaster and hit an innocent bystadner, sure it is easy with a lightsaber to break a gun but the risk was not worth it, it is better if scum like that is no more"

"I could never understand why loving someone opens the door to the dark side, sure you may feel sorry if they die but thats a small price to pay for happiness"


Once they think he is a padawan yet too old to be taught new tricks, he can bring a friend to the party, this urchin boy, that they will love, will run errands, and be completely adorable, 6 or more sessions later the urchin boy will be killed by "those sith bastards" (yeah righ) this should push the jedi characters to the brink of retributiion.

Pay some thungs to ambush and kidnap the weakest party member, (you have inside inforamtion on their wek spots) have the thugs sell parts of the character to the black market of sentient cooking, even if the character is rescued, the excruciating pain and mental distress of having one of their limbs detached and filleted should destabilice the group, the sith in disguise wil lbe 100% supportive of the revenge feelings of this character, and fuel them.


by now your party will be divided in two, those who want revenge from the bad guys and the jedi that have to confront the party.

They may even have to split for a while.

then the sith character will intercede as mediator between both sides, so the jedis pretty much will need him to interact with the rest of the group, clever manipulation of this Is what a sith is about.

up to here he has to be the "useless fun character" needing protection, not being able to actually acomplish much etc, and in one of the fights against the BBEG he may use a force power from the dark side to save another character, then proceed to act like he feels like crap and violated and that he gave up the light for a party member , while the jedi with their honor code could not prevent the kidnaping nor the death of the little urchin.

MUHAHHAHAHAHa

[Ravens_cry]

Ideas.
Play someone who agrees with the verve and passion toward life Sith philosophy ostensibly espouses, while agreeing less with the darker aspects.
What this means for the character, are they a deluded fool or are they a less evil side of the Sith, is a question for you both, DM and player, to decide.

They could be a spy and spies are not James Bond. They imitate and insinuate into groups. But as the spy grows closer to the others, will it challenge their loyalties and beliefs, will they become the mask? Another question with a lot of dramatic potential.

Or they could be your typical Sith, but with loyalties to the group as strong, or stronger, than their loyalties to the Sith.
If you feel the player can handle that without being Chaotic stupid, which you seem to, that could also be a good way to go.
Basically what I am saying is there is a lot of ways to play this in a way that is fun for everyone.
As for the question of canon, unless you are specifically playing the movies or specific EU, it can hang in my opinion. It's a big galaxy after all, with plenty of room for variance, not to mention alternate universes.

Have fun, that's the important thing after all.

Good luck, and May the Force be With you!

[Alejandro]

Ok some rules to play a sith in a jedi party and get away with it

rule 1, theres no betrayal if there is no trust.
rule 2, clever sith usually do not show themselves as one.
rule 3, do not do what others can do for you.
rule 4, fastest way to the dark side is grief.
rule 5, pity is for fools.

This means, if he wants to play a sith he should be a clever one, "my master died long ago, and sometimes my will falters, having you as an example will make me more stable", then follow them like a lap dog, making small comments to make them rethink some points of view "surely keeping the credits of those thugs is not theft right?, they were thieves themselves even if they had families"

"You had to kill him you could not take the risk of him firing that blaster and hit an innocent bystadner, sure it is easy with a lightsaber to break a gun but the risk was not worth it, it is better if scum like that is no more"

"I could never understand why loving someone opens the door to the dark side, sure you may feel sorry if they die but thats a small price to pay for happiness"


Once they think he is a padawan yet too old to be taught new tricks, he can bring a friend to the party, this urchin boy, that they will love, will run errands, and be completely adorable, 6 or more sessions later the urchin boy will be killed by "those sith bastards" (yeah righ) this should push the jedi characters to the brink of retributiion.

Pay some thungs to ambush and kidnap the weakest party member, (you have inside inforamtion on their wek spots) have the thugs sell parts of the character to the black market of sentient cooking, even if the character is rescued, the excruciating pain and mental distress of having one of their limbs detached and filleted should destabilice the group, the sith in disguise wil lbe 100% supportive of the revenge feelings of this character, and fuel them.


by now your party will be divided in two, those who want revenge from the bad guys and the jedi that have to confront the party.

They may even have to split for a while.

then the sith character will intercede as mediator between both sides, so the jedis pretty much will need him to interact with the rest of the group, clever manipulation of this Is what a sith is about.

up to here he has to be the "useless fun character" needing protection, not being able to actually acomplish much etc, and in one of the fights against the BBEG he may use a force power from the dark side to save another character, then proceed to act like he feels like crap and violated and that he gave up the light for a party member , while the jedi with their honor code could not prevent the kidnaping nor the death of the little urchin.

MUHAHHAHAHAHa

Well written out, but that would not work for long with my group. The players are pretty clever adult gamers and will see through that facade very quickly.

[Galanar]

so? do they metagame? I have fallen for tricks like that even knowing they are tricks because of awesomeness of story.

Just because you know that does not mean your character knows. Well played this would be even funnier for the jedis than for the rest.

wisdom/int/char scores exist for a reason ;) else why put it in a score if my character can only be as intelligent and no less than me?

[Alejandro]

These are Saga Edition Jedi we're talking about. They have high INT, WIS, and CHA. INT for more skills, WIS for more Force powers, and CHA for Use the Force. The Jedi will be as smart and wise and savvy, or more, than their players are.

[Galanar]

my fault, I keep thinking about jedi guardians and consulars and 99% of jedis being guardians high dex high con bit of Int.

Then a Vizzini tactic is needed, play many of the same tricks but never spring the trap, make the jedis think they are outsmarting you, yet you are not actually planning any evil plot.

After a while they would have called wolf a couple of times and the party will side with the bullied sith XD

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In the past, the player played a neutral evil assassin in a party of good PCs. He did some helpful things for us, but eventually murdered another PC when they would not pay an extortion of gold to him. We then killed him.




He's also played a loyal and generally good Star Wars character, again for real years, that never betrayed or hurt anyone but his enemies.

It's just that, sometimes, he apparently gets tired of being good or neutral and wants to be evil, and he is really good at playing Evil.

One of these things is not like the other...

I'd be real worried that he'd revert to type and backstab people under the cover of 'I'm a SITH, that's my JOB'...

[Coidzor]

They may even have to split for a while.

Yeah. No. That in and of itself is grounds for getting smacked. Because that is the exact opposite of fun. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa2ucfgVgQ)


Then a Vizzini tactic is needed, play many of the same tricks but never spring the trap, make the jedis think they are outsmarting you, yet you are not actually planning any evil plot.

After a while they would have called wolf a couple of times and the party will side with the bullied sith XD

So your suggestion for how not to disrupt the game is more ways to disrupt the game and even make it all about the disruptive player, which is the opposite of what the OP wanted. :smallconfused:

Well, it's certainly thinking outside of the box, I'll admit.

[Galanar]

Maybe I am used to different things our groups consist of 7+ people with different schedules and shifts so usually we kind of split and remerge a lot and usually it all makes sense story wise.

Characters have friends outside the party and they enjoy expending time with them, ( "my shift has changed so next week I cannot assist, I think my character is going to visit her readhead ladyfriend in Hapes and meet you all in coruscant for the ball ok?")

That said, spliting the party in the same session, yeah not a good idea.


As far as I understand the issue, the character wants to play a concept that will be at odds with the party, you can either deny it ( then no forum post is needed) or try to make the best of this situation (hey free plot advancement thanks to this character)

If the Character actually can play the concept in this fashion he can achieve his personal goals of being a sith in a player party, fulfill his character motivation by tempting and trying to corrupt the jedi (and doing nearly nothing!!!), plus not wrecking the game completely.


Also, a character playing a jedi that never faces morals dilemmas like this is kind of unidimensional (think of 50's superman) compared to a modern concept of hero (dark night's batman).

Were I the jedi in that party I would welcome the challenge, "I feel the dark side in him , but he does no evil, is the force failing me? Am I falling to the dark side?" "what makes the light and dark side so different? we both want peace in the galaxy, maybe he is better than me because he has to supress his dark side to perform good, and I am biased because I feel darkness in him, a darkness only certain to me"

Hell! give me that group dynamic over most game plots i've read in the last 10 years.


If the Sith only wants random destruction... then run a couple of one on one sessions with him and let him get it out of the system and then maek a different player.