How exactly did Roy's gender swap make him hate Miko? [Archive]

CoffeeIncluded

2011-09-13, 02:14 PM

I'm probably missing something really important here, which I know is going to make me dope slap myself once I figure it out, but how exactly did Roy's turning himself into a woman make him completely change his tune about Miko? Before the assassins attacked it was clear that Elan was making Roy think about what Miko was really like, though he was obviously trying not to consider that uncomfortable truth. But then just a couple of strips later he says, "I have a plan, and plans and Miko don't work well," or something like that.

Clearly the dwarven assassin's hitting on him made Roy want to treat Miko with more respect instead of always calling her "Honey," or "Baby," but was it ever really shown how those events made Roy change his thinking from "head over heels in lust," to "I wouldn't touch your skinny ass with a standard-issue ten foot pole, you overbearing, self-righteous bitch." Was he given more time to think about what Elan and the rest of the Order said? Was it just the sudden lack of hormones? I'm sorry, I just want this clarified.

ORione

2011-09-13, 02:20 PM

He already hated Miko, but he didn't realize it until he lost Trouser Titan.

It was the lack of hormones.

veti

2011-09-13, 02:55 PM

It was the lack of hormones.

Exactly.

It's possible you've never been a single heterosexual male in your 20s, but one of the major pitfalls of that state is that you are completely incapable of forming a balanced opinion of an attractive woman. Your Trouser Titan insists on taking over and judging for you.

Spending an hour or so, however long it was, without the TT was long enough for the scales to fall from Roy's eyes.

zimmerwald1915

2011-09-13, 03:04 PM

But then just a couple of strips later he says, "I have a plan, and plans and Miko don't work well," or something like that.
He knew that plans and Miko didn't mix well since she derailed his plan to sneak attack the ogre camp. He chose not to care.

The Pilgrim

2011-09-13, 03:17 PM

Was it just the sudden lack of hormones?

+1 to "Yes, it was the hormones"

The moment in which Roy was able to think about Miko as a person, instead of as a piece of meat, he was able to realize the kind of spiteful person she was.

werik

2011-09-13, 03:52 PM

I think a lot has to be said for the attack itself. Elan was right when he said that Miko was mean and also right to challenge Roy's choice of Miko over the party, his true friends. When push came to shove and Roy really had to make the choice to sacrifice to save Elan, he did so and also reset his priorities.

Raistlin82

2011-09-13, 03:52 PM

Additionally, saying that she and plans don't work well doesn't mean hating her. It just means good common sense + first hand experience.

The hating came later, and is just a direct consequence of Miko's words, choices and behaviour. Nothing to do with Roy's mishap.

OmegaDonut

2011-09-13, 05:43 PM

There's a lot to be said about Belkar hitting on Roy, and him realizing what it's like to be the recipient of unwanted, less-than-subtle amorous advances.

jidasfire

2011-09-13, 06:15 PM

Despite (or perhaps because of) his Lawful alignment, Roy has always been a person to buck authority he considers unjust. Given this, his going along with Miko in the first place was largely due to him finding her attractive. Granted, he would probably have stopped wanting to fight her when he found out she was a paladin regardless, but under the circumstances, he was very willing to give her what she wanted in the hopes of getting a date. He tolerated much more in the way of insults to himself and his teammates for the same reason. Upon losing that physical attraction, Roy realized that he was acting against his own nature, and when he became himself again, I suspect all the things he might have said at the time came out with the full force of his Greenhilt causticity (causticness?). Hence, a much stronger reaction than one might expect in such a short time.

theNater

2011-09-13, 08:26 PM

Clearly the dwarven assassin's hitting on him made Roy want to treat Miko with more respect...
I think there's a bit of a misapprehension here; it didn't make Roy want to treat Miko with more respect, but rather to treat her as a fellow warrior. And a fellow warrior who behaves the way Miko does gets called an "overbearing, self-righteous bitch". As The Pilgrim points out:

The moment in which Roy was able to think about Miko as a person, instead of as a piece of meat, he was able to realize the kind of spiteful person she was.
While the lack of hormones may have helped him think about her as a person(and certainly wouldn't hurt), I think Roy's experiences while female also helped.

derfenrirwolv

2011-09-13, 08:33 PM

There are two heads on the male body. There is only enough blood to run one at a time. Without the other one , his brain had enough oxygen to function.

NerfTW

2011-09-13, 10:41 PM

It's possible you've never been a single heterosexual male in your 20s, but one of the major pitfalls of that state is that you are completely incapable of forming a balanced opinion of an attractive woman.

That's not exclusive to heterosexuals. Try telling the gay waiter who spent the whole meal asking me to follow him into the bathroom and sitting on my lap at one point that he was forming a balanced and rational opinion an attractive man. (No, I don't think I'm that hot, he might have been drinking) And it's certainly not exclusive to men. I've seen women be that stupid too. It's hormones, not gender.

There's a lot to be said about Belkar hitting on Roy, and him realizing what it's like to be the recipient of unwanted, less-than-subtle amorous advances.

Bingo, that was what did it. Belkar unintentionally did something GOOD by showing Roy how he was failing to treat Miko with the same respect as the rest of the party. In this case, too much respect, overlooking her attitude.

There are two heads on the male body. There is only enough blood to run one at a time. Without the other one , his brain had enough oxygen to function.

Way to run those stereotypes into the ground. Clearly, all us men can only think with our penis or our brains. If only we were women, who have never done something stupid in the name of sexual attraction in their lives. :smallsigh:

VanBuren

2011-09-14, 01:57 AM

Actually, Roy wasn't treating her with any respect, really. Sure he listened to her above and beyond the rest of the party. But only because he wanted to bump uglies with her. He objectified her sexually, so he couldn't have respected her as a person.

Of course, when he did treat her as a real human being, he treated her as an abhorrent one based on her actions, which is arguably better than with faux-adoration.

derfenrirwolv

2011-09-14, 02:34 AM

Way to run those stereotypes into the ground. Clearly, all us men can only think with our penis or our brains. If only we were women, who have never done something stupid in the name of sexual attraction in their lives.

1) I'm male.

2) I have seen a lot of men do a lot of stupid things for a pretty face. Most of said things involved credit cards, some of them involved fighting people they had noooo business fighting, breaking up with lifelong friends, and more yet involved spending time doing things they absolutely hated.

The song when a man loves a woman pretty much covers it.

3) Don't let the nuances of reality get in the way of a good joke. (or a bad one). Yes its a stereotype, yes its not true of everyone (my honorary eunuch self is an example of that) but its true enough to have become a stereotype, and that's enough for a cheap laugh.

4) Women do some really dumb stuff too, like thinking they can change a man or staying in dangerous relationships.

SowZ

2011-09-14, 02:51 AM

1) I'm male.

2) I have seen a lot of men do a lot of stupid things for a pretty face. Most of said things involved credit cards, some of them involved fighting people they had noooo business fighting, breaking up with lifelong friends, and more yet involved spending time doing things they absolutely hated.

The song when a man loves a woman pretty much covers it.

3) Don't let the nuances of reality get in the way of a good joke. (or a bad one). Yes its a stereotype, yes its not true of everyone (my honorary eunuch self is an example of that) but its true enough to have become a stereotype, and that's enough for a cheap laugh.

4) Women do some really dumb stuff too, like thinking they can change a man or staying in dangerous relationships.

Or thinking you will call the next day or maybe see each other again some time. That one is hilarious. Man, it never gets old.

Jackson

2011-09-14, 07:06 AM

As said, he already hated her, he just was too busy trying to get in her pants to notice. I don't think it was the lack of hormones so much as the fact that he received the same treatment pretty much non-stop during his brief stint as a woman. He considered this treatment, realized it had nothing to do with his personality (or anything else about him) but rather to do with his looks, concluded that the looks and the person were, in fact, separate, and used that insight to have a look at who Miko was, aside from the hotness.

And so he arrived, at last, at the obvious: he actually hated Miko. So the gender swap didn't make Roy hate Miko; it helped give him the necessary distance he needed to realize it.

Mastikator

2011-09-14, 07:32 AM

Being a woman made him learn to respect women for their personality, or in Miko's case, despise her for her personality.

pendell

2011-09-14, 08:46 AM

My observation is that males lose any sense of balance right around the time they hit puberty. They sometimes get their sense of perspective back at 30 .. assuming they've lived that long. Been there, done that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

dps

2011-09-14, 09:08 AM

I've got to disagree with the general thrust of this thread. IMO, it the gender change had little or nothing to do with Roy's change in attitude. Miko's attitude and actions towards the party at first were a result of her thinking that they were evil, but when that misunderstanding was cleared up and she learned that they weren't (execpt for Belkar, who at that point she couldn't be sure of--remember, she hadn't seen his homocidal tendancies yet, and couldn't scan him to detect evil), she hadn't been that bad. Yeah, she got exasperated with Elan, but Roy actually related to that, and he was right on board with her about saving the dirt farmer (as he should have been). But then, after the destruction of the inn, she went on what was effectively a rant, and a stupid rant at that, blaming the destruction on the fact that the party wanted to stay there, rather than sleep in a ditch. Roy's patience was just used up by then, IMO.

JSSheridan

2011-09-14, 06:57 PM

+1 to "Yes, it was the hormones"

The moment in which Roy was able to think about Miko as a person, instead of as a piece of meat, he was able to realize the kind of spiteful person she was.

So would this mean Roy was still hetero while wearing the belt?

CoffeeIncluded

2011-09-14, 08:09 PM

Juggling Goth

2011-09-15, 01:01 AM

4) Women do some really dumb stuff too, like thinking they can change a man or staying in dangerous relationships.

Oh this is totally off-topic but I can't let that slide.

Effect of long-term abuse on self-respect and independence + practical difficulty of leaving a controlling partner != doing really dumb stuff.

Super fun fact: if a woman dies from domestic violence, it's usually just after she leaves. If she fears it getting worse if she tries to leave, she's generally right. Expecting her to just leave without looking at support systems, legal protection, etc is kind of irresponsible.

The Giant

2011-09-15, 02:32 AM

I don't think it was the lack of hormones so much as the fact that he received the same treatment pretty much non-stop during his brief stint as a woman. He considered this treatment, realized it had nothing to do with his personality (or anything else about him) but rather to do with his looks, concluded that the looks and the person were, in fact, separate, and used that insight to have a look at who Miko was, aside from the hotness.

And so he arrived, at last, at the obvious: he actually hated Miko. So the gender swap didn't make Roy hate Miko; it helped give him the necessary distance he needed to realize it.

This is probably the most accurate answer, though certainly the lack of hormones didn't hurt either.

pendell

2011-09-15, 01:53 PM

This is probably the most accurate answer, though certainly the lack of hormones didn't hurt either.

Fascinating. Elan figured that out quite quickly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html). No one ever accused Elan of being the sharpest pencil in the drawer. Given his dalliance with Haley, his hormones also seem to be in working order.

So why did Elan get it so quickly when Roy "I have 18 intelligence" Greenhilt didn't?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

dps

2011-09-15, 01:59 PM

Porthos

2011-09-15, 02:03 PM

Fascinating. Elan figured that out quite quickly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html). No one ever accused Elan of being the sharpest pencil in the drawer. Given his dalliance with Haley, his hormones also seem to be in working order.

So why did Elan get it so quickly when Roy "I have 18 intelligence" Greenhilt didn't?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

A) Roy doesn't have an 18 INT (I wish that notion would die a fiery fiery death).

B) Elan wasn't attracted to Miko and thus had the neccessary distance to see things more clearly. I think the emotional distance is pretty important here. After all, he was just as clueless about Haley's attraction to him.

C) Just because someone has smarts to one degree or another, doesn't mean they can't do stupid things. De Nile ain't just a river in Egypt and all that. Basically Roy blinded himself to certain things because he wanted to get into the sack with Miko.

D) Maybe Rich was making a joke about saying, "This is so obvious to everyone that even Elan can see what is up. :smallwink:

pendell

2011-09-15, 02:31 PM

A) Roy doesn't have an 18 INT (I wish that notion would die a fiery fiery death).

You can help put it to death in MY mind by explaining to me why you believe this is so. I'm going off the early strip when the mindflay -- erm, whatever -- went for Roy over Vaarsuvius, and V has 18 int.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Nimrod's Son

2011-09-15, 02:38 PM

You can help put it to death in MY mind by explaining to me why you believe this is so. I'm going off the early strip when the mindflay -- erm, whatever -- went for Roy over Vaarsuvius, and V has 18 int.
The mind flayer went for the one with the most appealing mental stats, not just intelligence. Roy's are pretty good all round. V is super-intelligent but his wisdom is abysmal.

CoffeeIncluded

2011-09-15, 02:38 PM

You can help put it to death in MY mind by explaining to me why you believe this is so. I'm going off the early strip when the mindflay -- erm, whatever -- went for Roy over Vaarsuvius, and V has 18 int.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That's because the Mind Flayer went for the person with the highest mental stat total, not just intelligence. V has extremely high intelligence, but average wisdom and poor charisma. Roy has good to very good values in all three stats; he's got the higher total.

Studoku

2011-09-15, 03:50 PM

You can help put it to death in MY mind by explaining to me why you believe this is so. I'm going off the early strip when the mindflay -- erm, whatever -- went for Roy over Vaarsuvius, and V has 18 int.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Word of God:

Correct. V has a higher Int, but has a moderate Wisdom and a poor Charisma (shouting about your arcane power all day is not the way to make friends). Roy has a very good Int, a very good Wis, and a decent Charisma. Thus, he's the most filling meal.
Source: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493

KingFlameHawk

2011-09-15, 04:40 PM

I'm sure that this comic: 231 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html) had a lot to do with it.

In it Elan confronts Roy about his attraction to Miko and it is correctly pointed out that
A. Roy is only attacted to her for her looks
B. Roy is simply pretending that she isn't being mean to himself and his friends because of A
and C. Roy is puting his attraction to Miko above the happiness of his friends.

And after this and the time he spent as a woman (and away from Miko for most of it) allowed him to properly understand this and realize who Miko actually is.

Kish

2011-09-15, 05:27 PM

So why did Elan get it so quickly when Roy "I have [high :-p] intelligence" Greenhilt didn't?
Miko was everything Roy thought he wanted.

Elan never thought he wanted an uptight paladin who found Elan somewhere between exasperating and maddening.

theinsulabot

2011-09-15, 09:52 PM

You can help put it to death in MY mind by explaining to me why you believe this is so. I'm going off the early strip when the mindflay -- erm, whatever -- went for Roy over Vaarsuvius, and V has 18 int.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

my god man, how have you been around this long without having already seen the answer to that? there has been definitive WoG on the subject for like 6 years now.

pendell

2011-09-15, 10:17 PM

my god man, how have you been around this long without having already seen the answer to that? there has been definitive WoG on the subject for like 6 years now.

I've only been here five years and I missed that one. There are literally tens of thousands of threads, and the Giant has made many posts. If you would link to it -- minus the imprecations , of course -- I'd be grateful.

ETA: I just realized that if the Giant gave us a hard stat on Roy's INT it has probably already been purged. I certainly haven't seen that either in the strip or in the books. If the Giant made that statement in a web thread I confess I haven't seen it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

theinsulabot

2011-09-15, 10:46 PM

gee, I would if stu42 hadnt already beaten us both to the punch at the end of the last page. specifically, the giant, in a rare moment of actually acknowledging character stats, confirms that in fact, V unequivocally has a higher int then roy does, V kindly elaborates he has 18 INT. ergo, Roy certainly does not have 18 INT.

pendell

2011-09-15, 11:46 PM

Well, thank you, Stu42, for updating me.

As for you, insulabot, I find your tone offensive. I have therefore added you to my ignore list.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

VanBuren

2011-09-16, 04:12 AM

Well, thank you, Stu42, for updating me.

As for you, insulabot, I find your tone offensive. I have therefore added you to my ignore list.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I sense irony in that signature.

B.I.T.T.

2011-09-19, 12:11 PM

This has probably been said already, but I'm too darn lazy to read through the entire thread to check, but I think that the gender switch and Roy's new attitude on Miko are actually unrelated.

Roy's experiences with the girdle were enough to make him realize that talking to Miko the way he was, though intended to be endearing, were not welcomed and made her feel uncomfortable.

His change of attitude was most likely due to a number of factors. (1) That Elan had made a reasonable point about Miko that he couldn't find the answer to, (2) Miko's tirade against his fellow Stickers after the hotel blew up, and (3) the general pain in the patootie that she had been prior to that point. Honestly I think the straw that broke the camel's back was number 2.

Cizak

2011-10-01, 01:53 PM

No need to be rude is it really that serious?

Saying "gee, i would have if X hadn't already" when X clearly already has isn't what I would call "rude".

Gift Jeraff

2011-10-01, 02:44 PM

No need to be rude is it really that serious?Apparently serious enough to be bumped 2 weeks after it settled. :smallconfused:

theinsulabot

2011-10-03, 06:58 AM

Saying "gee, i would have if X hadn't already" when X clearly already has isn't what I would call "rude".

I hadn't intended to say anything (you know, what with it passing on deaf ears from being on ignore and all) but actually, I did get something of a laugh out of that being the post that set him off, what with it being a literal statement of truth. I had just opened another tabbed window intending to search for the quote when it occurred to me I had just seen it. thus the statement, "Gee, I would, but someone already did" which followed with me skipping the search for the link to laying it out precisely why he was wrong.

eh, thinking about it, that's probably it though, some people just cant stand be proven wrong on the internet though

*shrug*