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Drazik
2011-09-13, 04:04 PM
hey fellow playgrounders

me and my freinds have just started to play DnD, and have had 2 small arguments over the alignment of two of our characters.

the first one is obsessed with the law, and kills/ punishes anyone who breaks it. the main two sides to this one was neutral lawful, and evil lawful, but we couldn't come to an agreement.

the second character is totally obsessed with avenging the demon lord that killed his family. he kills anyone who gets in his way to do so. we couldn't decide what alignment he was, and we had everything ranging from neutral lawful to evil chaotic.

any oppinions would be greatly appreciated.

Steward
2011-09-13, 04:15 PM
One thing you probably already know is that, barring extreme specific interpretations of the rules, you can pretty much assign any alignment to any character. What you need to do is try to figure out something that works for the individual players and the whole party.

Does player 1 (the law-obsessed guy) prefer to think of the character as Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil? If the former, maybe ask them to tone it down a little -- does s/he have to kill everyone who breaks any law, no matter how trivial? That kind of over-the-top character runs the risk of annoying the rest of the group; if the rest of the party wants to do a dungeon-crawl or something, they're not going to want to wait around for the group's fascist to finish disemboweling a couple of litterbugs. If this is an evil-themed campaign where most of the players do enjoy violence, then s/he might be persuaded to accept LE.

Same thing for player 2 (the demon guy). What does he think? If he wants to be Lawful Neutral, you could say that he swore an oath or something and is just rigidly sticking to the terms of that pact, even if it means hurting the innocent. If he's Chaotic Evil, you could play up the fact that he either went off the deep end or enjoys violating other people's rights under the mantle of self-righteous revenge. You can make similar arguments for Chaotic Neutral or any of the other varieties of Evil too if you wanted.

Again, unless this is a campaign where most of the players are comfortable dealing with or playing evil characters, I would probably suggest toning down the psychopathic rampage. There's nothing wrong with playing that way but, take it from me, unless everyone is comfortable and happy with that it can get pretty annoying.

Good luck with your game, and I hope this thread helps you out!

flumphy
2011-09-13, 04:18 PM
First of all, a bit of terminology: when naming alignments, the law/chaos axis always comes first. You want "chaotic evil" and "lawful neutral", for example, not "evil chaotic" or "neutral lawful."

Alignment is a testy subject, and, while in-game it is theoretically objective, there are many ways for players to interpret the rules. You're undoubtedly going to see a lot of varying opinions on this thread alone.

If you're having trouble getting a feel for the basic concepts, there's a very detailed run-down of the alignment system that fleshes things out more than the Player's Handbook on this site (http://easydamus.com/alignment.html), but do note that it goes far beyond what the rules actually say. It's one person's interpretation, if a very well-thought-out one.

As for your individual characters, you don't really give enough details about their motivation and behavior to allow for a solid answer. Anything you list could potentially fit.

Drazik
2011-09-13, 04:21 PM
thanks guys, you helped a lot :smallsmile:

Magesmiley
2011-09-13, 07:25 PM
the first one is obsessed with the law, and kills/ punishes anyone who breaks it. the main two sides to this one was neutral lawful, and evil lawful, but we couldn't come to an agreement.

Honestly? I wouldn't classify this guy as lawful at all. Laws usually prescribe the appropriate justice for breaking them. Only adhering to the part of the law that is convenient for what you want to do isn't lawful. I'd classify him as neutral at best. Killing folks because he chooses to is probably evil. Assuming that the local laws don't prescribe death for everything, I'd probably tag this guy as neutral evil and simply trying to use the veneer of the law to justify his actions without actually following them (just paying them lip service - there are plenty of villains in literature that do this).

One caveat: If the local law is death for everything, lawful neutral or lawful evil might be the right tag. A real test of this might be how he behaves if HE breaks a law. If he commits suicide, I would probably be convinced that he is of a lawful evil alignment.


the second character is totally obsessed with avenging the demon lord that killed his family. he kills anyone who gets in his way to do so. we couldn't decide what alignment he was, and we had everything ranging from neutral lawful to evil chaotic.

This one is probably more straightforward. He is after something and woe be it to anyone who gets in his way. Blatant interest in one's own goals without regard to others is neutral evil as I see it. It doesn't really matter if he's after a demon - the ends don't justify the means.

Just my opinion, but that's what the OP asked for.

Togath
2011-09-13, 07:51 PM
Lawful evil or neutral evil for the first guy, basically depends on how his character would respond if he broke the law.
Lawful neutral or maybe true neutral for the second guy, as he sounds like he possesses great honor, but does both good and evil acts in equal measure.

edit; do you mean "gets in his way" as in "trys to stop him from slaying the demon", or do you mean "annoys him slightly", or "is in front of him"?

NNescio
2011-09-14, 01:47 AM
1) Lawful Stupid. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid)

2) Neutral Evil

Mastikator
2011-09-14, 04:14 AM
The first one is Evil with a captial E, possibly vile, and nominally chaotic since he has no legal authority to execute people. If he does have legal authority then he's lawful.

The second one is just as evil, but even more chaotic.

"Psychopathic monster" is a better way to describe them than with alignments though.

Serpentine
2011-09-14, 04:48 AM
Keeping in mind that a character's alignment is defined by more than a single aspect of their personality or a single deed (and that all the following is opinion), based solely on the information given:
the first one is obsessed with the law, and kills/ punishes anyone who breaks it. the main two sides to this one was neutral lawful, and evil lawful, but we couldn't come to an agreement.Resorting to execution and/or physical punishment for every broken law is a Lawful Evil trait. May be more Neutral Evil if breaking the law is an excuse, and the executions themselves go against the justice system of the land.

the second character is totally obsessed with avenging the demon lord that killed his family. he kills anyone who gets in his way to do so. we couldn't decide what alignment he was, and we had everything ranging from neutral lawful to evil chaotic.Depending on just how quickly and easily he resorts to "kill(ing) anyone who gets in his way", probably Neutral or Evil on the G/E axis. Law/Chaos depends on too many other factors not mentioned here - if this is his main and defining trait, probably Neutral, maybe Chaotic.

claricorp
2011-09-14, 11:43 PM
First one could be any of the lawful alignments, depending on who he is killing and exactly what for.

Lawful good is not lawful nice.

Second one could also be any alignment, though fits very well into the self centered chaotic neutral alignment.

hamishspence
2011-09-15, 05:18 AM
true, but Good implies respect for life. Which can extend to "respect for all life"- not killing beings, even enemies, unless the situation calls for it.

"Punish those that harm the innocent" is more appropriate than "Punish those that break the law" for a good character- and excessive punishment in any case is indicative of lack of respect for life.

Mastikator
2011-09-15, 07:07 AM
One thing to consider is that taking the law into your own hands should be considered chaotic, since it goes against established law.

A paladin who personally enforces the law in a town where he has no jurisdiction or permission is acting chaotically, not lawfully. Being a renegade is antithetical to being lawful.

hamishspence
2011-09-15, 07:38 AM
Being Lawful may have more to do with "Order" than with "the law" - especially if local law enforcement is corrupt or incompetent.

"Vigilante who seeks to restore Order" so to speak, isn't that out of character for Lawful alignment.

Bladesinger
2011-09-17, 04:56 AM
Being Lawful may have more to do with "Order" than with "the law" - especially if local law enforcement is corrupt or incompetent.

"Vigilante who seeks to restore Order" so to speak, isn't that out of character for Lawful alignment.

I agree with this completely. It's this same argument that makes me consider Rorschach from Watchmen to be Lawful Neutral. As for the topic at hand, I agree with Serpentine.

Edit: Jeez. Between this and the help you guys gave me on a thread like this that I posted a while back, I'm beginning to think that you two are the authorities on 3.5 alignment. Kudos for being awesome.

Mastikator
2011-09-17, 06:53 AM
Being Lawful may have more to do with "Order" than with "the law" - especially if local law enforcement is corrupt or incompetent.

"Vigilante who seeks to restore Order" so to speak, isn't that out of character for Lawful alignment.

The SRD disagrees with you on this.

"
Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#lawVsChaos

Rejecting the law and taking it into your own hands is NOT obedient towards authority or adherence to tradition (the well established lawful authority).
It is in fact arbitrary to be judge jury and executor and resentful to legitimate authority who may prefer to include a little thing called due process and habeas corpus.

Serpentine
2011-09-17, 07:03 AM
A character doesn't have to incorporate every single little trait or feature associated with an alignment in order to be of that alignment. An alignment is the total sum of a character's personality, attitudes, philosophy, behaviour, beliefs, actions and so on. A Paladin doesn't fall just because she has a messy room, even if disorganisation is a Chaotic trait.

Objection
2011-09-17, 07:37 AM
Yeah, if a character had to have every single trait of a particular alignment, then most characters (if not all) would have no alignment whatsoever (not even neutral).

Mastikator
2011-09-17, 08:13 AM
A character doesn't have to incorporate every single little trait or feature associated with an alignment in order to be of that alignment. An alignment is the total sum of a character's personality, attitudes, philosophy, behaviour, beliefs, actions and so on. A Paladin doesn't fall just because she has a messy room, even if disorganisation is a Chaotic trait.

True, but if you act in a way that blatantly goes against several lawful traits and in accordance with several chaotic traits then it's probably time to start thinking if it's a neutral character we're talking about, not a lawful.
Which incidentally was the diagnosis I gave, neutral with nominal chaotic leanings.

--

Edit, this is probably gonna cost the lives of many catgirls.
http://alzrius.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/batman-alignment.jpg
But I'm gonna use this picture as an authority, if you disagree then just disregard it, but if you don't, then ask yourself, which one is it that takes the laws into his own hands and which one respects the established legal system? Hmm.

Also:
If you automatically assume that any PC that takes laws into his hands is doing so because the established legal system is corrupt then you are letting your own bias get in your way. It's a speculation that you shouldn't make.

Serpentine
2011-09-17, 08:42 AM
Also:
If you automatically assume that any PC that takes laws into his hands is doing so because the established legal system is corrupt then you are letting your own bias get in your way. It's a speculation that you shouldn't make.Your assumption that he has no legal authority to execute people is at least as biased a presumption and purely speculation.
Basically, we simply have not enough information to give a definitive answer. However, I stand by my preliminary assessment that going out of your way to punish people specifically and explicitly because they break the law is probably (taken without context, as it has been given) a Lawful trait, and resorting directly to corporal punishment is an Evil trait. Whether or not those traits make the character's alignment Lawful Evil depends entirely on the rest of the character and a whole lot of context we're not given.

Note, moreover, that in my first post I left plenty of room for the character to be non-Lawful, depending - again - on information we're not given, specifically relating to motivation and official legal status.

Amphetryon
2011-09-17, 08:53 AM
Basically, we simply have not enough information to give a definitive answer. However, I stand by my preliminary assessment that going out of your way to punish people specifically and explicitly because they break the law is probably (taken without context, as it has been given) a Lawful trait, and resorting directly to corporal punishment is an Evil trait. Spanking makes one Evil? :smallwink:

Mastikator
2011-09-17, 08:57 AM
I make no such presumption. You can read my first post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11844518&postcount=8), where I take that does take it into consideration.

Serpentine
2011-09-17, 09:03 AM
Your first thought was that he did not. That's no more valid than our first thought being that he does.

Spanking makes one Evil? :smallwink:No. As I said, just one trait does not an alignment make. However, spanking being one's go-to punishment for every single misdemeaner... Yes, I would consider that a softly Evil trait - getting harder the further you stretch "spanking".

Drazik
2011-09-17, 11:56 AM
just for more background info, the "lawful" guy lives in hte world were the current law system is not necessarily the bewst, but is not overly corrupt. he believes that the authorities are letting too many things slide and are not comeing down hard enough on wrong-doers. he does not detest the guards or the legal system, but he just thinks that he will have to do it himself if he wants justice to be served.

the demon guy is much simpler. he only cares about vengence; if someone is standing in front of him, blocking his way, (purposfully or not) he will ask them once to move, and if they don't he will kill them then and there. he does not enjoy killing, but thinks that it is nessesary for him to achieve his goal, and therefore doesn't not like doing it either. he does not see people as people anymore, just as obsticles.

hope this clears things up a bit.

Serpentine
2011-09-17, 12:10 PM
First one: Still reckon Lawful Evil. His problem is that the law isn't strict enough.

Second one... Still too 2-dimensional to give a certain answer. Those sound like non-good, non-lawful traits, but can't say much more than that. Leaning towards Neutral Evil, but not very strongly.

flumphy
2011-09-17, 12:58 PM
I guess I'll throw in my two cents now that you've posted more info.

The first one I would probably peg as lawful neutral or lawful evil. Neutral if the punishment is somewhat reasonable for the crime and he always makes sure of his victim's guilt: e.g., killing a murderer who the courts let off on a legal technicality, roughing up a mugger he caught in the act. Evil if those two qualifications are not met (i.e, killing the mugger, roughing up a guy who littered) or if he's willing to harm the innocent in order to bring criminals to justice.

The second I would call neutral evil. Retribution is generally considered a lawful in D&D terms, but killing whoever stands in your way and consequences be damned is definitely chaotic. That level of selfishness is evil, in any case. I'd say it balances out to neutral, which is appropriate since he seems mostly self-serving and not really out to serve or shirk authority.

Hanuman
2011-09-17, 01:14 PM
hey fellow playgrounders

me and my freinds have just started to play DnD, and have had 2 small arguments over the alignment of two of our characters.

the first one is obsessed with the law, and kills/ punishes anyone who breaks it. the main two sides to this one was neutral lawful, and evil lawful, but we couldn't come to an agreement.

the second character is totally obsessed with avenging the demon lord that killed his family. he kills anyone who gets in his way to do so. we couldn't decide what alignment he was, and we had everything ranging from neutral lawful to evil chaotic.

any oppinions would be greatly appreciated.


just for more background info, the "lawful" guy lives in hte world were the current law system is not necessarily the bewst, but is not overly corrupt. he believes that the authorities are letting too many things slide and are not comeing down hard enough on wrong-doers. he does not detest the guards or the legal system, but he just thinks that he will have to do it himself if he wants justice to be served.

the demon guy is much simpler. he only cares about vengence; if someone is standing in front of him, blocking his way, (purposfully or not) he will ask them once to move, and if they don't he will kill them then and there. he does not enjoy killing, but thinks that it is nessesary for him to achieve his goal, and therefore doesn't not like doing it either. he does not see people as people anymore, just as obsticles.

hope this clears things up a bit.

he does not see people as people
When one loses their respect for life, specifically sentient life, they become evil. If they show a conflicting balance between respect and disrespect they are neutral between good and evil, Lawful in this equation is one's honor, and honor is a term for how much resolve someone has to their specific morality.

Lawful has nothing to do with law systems in place, rather it's a term used for how biased or stubborn one is with their world view, otherwise every backwater law on every upsidedown plane would block in a lawful character into doing things she doesn't feel are right as a character.

If a character floats around her morality or her opinions of justification she could be neutral, chaotic means to not hold onto it but may have opinions, lawful means to be strict to it.

Good means to have compassion and respect for others situations, neutral means to hold a varying respect, but not necessarily have it guide your intent in the long or short run, evil means to lack a respect.

Mind you, these terms are ONLY to be used for 3 things: magic, class features and religion.

Everything else shouldn't even be a factor, as you should concentrate on playing your character as a character instead of a character as an alignment-- most of the time believable characters will float around N then bounce back and forth between alignments depending on the major decisions you make in your adventures. People are simply more complex, more dynamic and more organic than the alignment system can decide, and I think that if even 1 person could formulate a fixed system for true alignment they'd get a psychology grant =P

Intention, action, alignment adjustment, in that order.

Burner28
2011-09-18, 08:40 AM
the demon guy is much simpler. he only cares about vengence; if someone is standing in front of him, blocking his way, (purposfully or not) he will ask them once to move, and if they don't he will kill them then and there. he does not enjoy killing, but thinks that it is nessesary for him to achieve his goal, and therefore doesn't not like doing it either. he does not see people as people anymore, just as obsticles.



Seems more like Neutral Evil.

hamishspence
2011-09-19, 05:38 AM
The SRD disagrees with you on this.


The SRD represents the bare bones- alignment can have a great deal of shades of grey.

Batman is cited as a possible LG character in Complete Scoundrel- and Magneto as a possible LE character.

"Respects authority" doesn't have to mean "respects all authority"- there is some room for Lawful vigilantes, or Lawful crimelords who disobey legitimate authority- but are themselves a (illegitimate) authority of their own.

Hanuman
2011-09-19, 06:26 AM
The SRD represents the bare bones- alignment can have a great deal of shades of grey.

Batman is cited as a possible LG character in Complete Scoundrel- and Magneto as a possible LE character.

"Respects authority" doesn't have to mean "respects all authority"- there is some room for Lawful vigilantes, or Lawful crimelords who disobey legitimate authority- but are themselves a (illegitimate) authority of their own.
The literalism is the source of the "stick in the butt" dnd joke used for the azura paladins, not all paladins are sticks in the butt the same as not all anything is anything in OotS, it's a parody often on how generic or literal people take things sometimes.

hamishspence
2011-09-19, 07:12 AM
There's a poster (Porthos) who has as their sig:

Being lawful doesn't mean you have to follow the law (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a)

- WotC makes it clear on that site page, that Lawful alignment is more flexible than that.

Roderick_BR
2011-09-19, 08:03 AM
By what you said, the first guy (law dude) seems like LE, putting the Law and punishment above everything else, typical evil overlord style. Someone "just" zealous, bothering everyone to follow the singlest laws (hey, no litter, or I'll call the guard to fine you), is LN. Someone the tries to use the law to protect people, and try to teach the correct way rather than just go and punish without a second chance, is LG.

The second, may easily hange from CN to CE, apparently driven crazy for his thirst for revenge, not caring who he's hurting in order to get his revenge at any cost, since he's just destroying stuff for hiw own personal benefit.