Gish Build, need serious help!

[macdaddy]

I am struggling trying to build a Gish. I will be playing from Level 1 on, so would like to be effective as early as possible. This means being survivable early, and gaining access to 3rd/4th level spells ASAP.

I have access to most of the standard books ( PHBI &II, DMG I&II, Complete XX [Arcane, Divine, Warrior, Adventurer], Spell compendium, and Complete Mage).

I do NOT have access to the more esoteric books [Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Exalted Deeds, Races of Stone, Races of Faerun].

With that in mind, I think my progression will go like this:
Fighter 2 / Wizard 4/ Spell Sword 1/ Abjurant Champ 5 / Eldritch Knight 8

As a Wizard, I would go with a Focused Specialist Transmuter, and exclude Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy. As a gish, I only really need access to Transmutation, Abjuration, Illusion, and some Div/universal. My INT based bonus spell would then be required to go into a useful Abjuration(shield) or Illusion(Mirror Image) based spell.

At 7th level, I would have a BAB of 5, 1st: 3/3, 2nd: 2/3, 3rd: 1/3
1st: Nerveskitter x2, Fist of Stone x 1, shield x 3
2nd: Wraithstrike x 2, Alter Self (or another wraith strike with alter self on a scroll), Mirror Image x 2
3rd: Haste x3, Dispel Magic

At 20th, this will end up with a CL17(20th effective) and a BAB of 18. Enough to gain access to 9th level spells, 3 transmutations as a focused specialist, and max attacks per round.

My un-modifed stats are:
Str: 14, Con: 14, Dex: 14, I:18, W: 13, Chr: 11

If I went for a Dwarf, I would get +2Con and -2 Chr, and lose out on 1 extra feat (not a big deal, right? and the extra +1hp per level could be quite useful).

Feat Progression:
1: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Combat Reflexes, Improved Init (if human)
2: Power Attack
3: Practiced Spell Caster, Scribe Scroll
6: Combat Casting
9: Arcane Strike
12: Extend Spell ?
13: Improved Crit (Great Sword) [??would some other fighter feat make more sense?]
15: Quicken Spell or Persist Spell
18: Persist Spell or Quicken Spell

At early levels, I would use a reach weapon (like glaive) to gain advantage of combat reflexes. At higher levels, it would still be useful when in large size mode via polymorph.

Questions:
1. How does this look? Did I miss anything?
2. Is there anything you would suggest?
3. Dwarf or Human? Its basically a tossup between improved init or +1hp/lvl


Thanks in advance for your help!

[Essence_of_War]

Are you married to wizard?

I think the classic Sorcadin is probably stronger than this. For reference:

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AdjChamp5/SacredExorcist8

I think you get WAY more benefit out of casting stat -> saves than you do out of two marginal combat feats.

If you're looking at survivability and usefulness at all levels, I like either:
Duskblade2/Warblade4/SuelArch4/AbjChamp5/SpellSword1/ X

[Xtomjames]

I'd suggest going the Ranger Wizard route instead or Barbarian Wizard...

Another suggestion would be the Monk Wizard Cleric (Theurge) method.

The Monk's movement and AC bonus work well for protection and survivability and the spells the Wizard/Cleric combo uses will grant great buffs, protection, and abilities to the Monk class.

Gestalt survivability is easier than it looks.

[Curious]

I would suggest- the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). A gish from level 1, and it does it very well.

[Essence_of_War]

OP,

What are the non-negotiables of your build, what sources do you have access to, what houserules (if any) does your group use?

[Jude_H]

Wizard casting is worth far more than a couple save bonuses or anything Arcanamach has to offer.

Those feats are pretty dire, though. Consider Knowledge Devotion, Minor Shapeshift or Enspell/Improved Familiar for higher returns than Weapon Focus or Improved Crit. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip could be useful too - they'd contribute to low-level survival and would work well with the Combat Reflex approach.

Greatswords are pretty mediocre weapon choices. Reach weapons are more likely to carry you through low levels and are more useful for battlefield control. Bludgeoning weapons deal far more base damage, thanks to Greater Mighty Wallop.

Wraithstrike's wonderful, but it cuts deep into spell slots. It works wonders with wand chambers - Craft Wand might even be worthwhile, just for that.

If Dwarf, you can work a level of Runesmith in at ECL 6 at basically no cost - that would help a bit with low-level fragility.

edit: No idea how applicable it is to your scenario, but I like to take one of those 1/day SLA feats from Complete Arcane for level 1 gishes, using PHB2 retraining to make room for Practiced Spellcaster as soon as real casting comes online. It keeps the concept basically consistent throughout a character's progression without having to use one of the gish-in-a-can classes, which tend to be lackluster at higher levels.

[Essence_of_War]

I don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it sound on the caster type front Jude_H.

Sacred Exorcist allows the Sorcadin to wield his casting stat like a bludgeon with Devotion Feats and Divine Might. Wizard casting is obviously fantastic, but his build loses 3 CLs, whereas the Sorcadin only loses 2. They're going to get level 9 casting online at the same time.

I think a lot of it comes down to where you see yourself on the Primary Caster/Melee Monster continuum. Arcanamach is great at buffing for melee, and maintaining buffs even through dispels. If you want to build a character who leans heavily to the melee side, it's a perfectly reasonable choice.

[Piggy Knowles]

My main problem with Sorcerer gishes is that Sorcerers already have their casting delayed by a level. Delaying it even further, by dipping into other classes, just gets painful.

For a fairly simple build...

Dwarf
Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 5/Abjurant Champion 5

Fill in the last five levels with anything that progresses spellcasting. Don't bother with Eldritch Knight or anything that will lose you casting.

Take Arcane Disiple (War), and use Runesmith's 5th-level ability to permanently turn Divine Power into a 2/day SLA. Feel free to fight in full plate armor, using your runes to cast from. Have fun with all the goodies of a 19th-level wizard, along with above-average melee capability and some choice Cleric buffs.

[macdaddy]

I have access to most of the standard books ( PHBI &II, DMG I&II, Complete XX [Arcane, Divine, Warrior, Adventurer], Spell compendium, and Complete Mage).

I do NOT have access to the more esoteric books [Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Exalted Deeds, Races of Stone, Races of Faerun].

My races are limited to standard PHB races.

Thus Fighter/Wizard, Paladin/Sorcerer, Abjurant Champ, Spell Sword, Eldritch Knight and Sacred Exorcist are all available. I am pretty sure if I play a paladin, I will have to play LG; I don't think a Paladin of Freedom would be an option. That would remove some fun that can be had with Alter Self... :)

The only reason I considered Ftr/Wiz over Pal/Sorc is that a Ftr/Wiz build will get access to 3rd level spells at 7th level, and 4th at 9th. You lose a 3rd caster level, but delay that hit until 13th level. So effectively, your spell progression is only 2 levels behind normal until 13th, afterwhich it is 3 behind.

A Pal/Sorc doesn't get a 3rd level spell until 9th level, and a 4th level spell until 11th level, which is 2 levels behind a Ftr/Wiz and 4 levels behind a wizard

Basically, although the paladin/sorcerer is probably stronger towards the end of the build (starting at Lvl 13+ due to sacred exorcist), the Ftr/Wizard is probably a little stronger up until 13th Lvl. Since our games usually peter out around 9th-12th level, it seemed to me to be a slightly better option.

What is an Arcanamach?
What does SLA stand for? Spell like ability? What fears provide that?

There are so many feats strewn through these books, it is difficult to find what is effective/useful and what is crap.

[Eldariel]

Go X 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

You lose 2 casting levels and 4 BAB meaning you hit 16 BAB and 18 CL; pretty solid since the progression itself is pretty smooth (tho losing two caster levels in the start does suck).

X 1 is any full BAB class; classes of interest include Barbarian (Pounce and the last ditch Rage), Ranger (a metric ton of skillpoints, some minor spell-likes with the trades in Complete Champion & ability to use Ranger Wands) or Fighter 2. I'm not sure the extra Fighter feat is as good as any of the other options tho.


Out of the PHB races, Human is obviously the best option. Extra feat, provided you spend it wisely, is about the most powerful thing you can get. And the extra skill points never hurt anyone. Use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) for an additional combat feat.


And Arcanamach is "Suel Arcanamach" from Complete Arcane; basically a separate Gish-class with its own spell progression. Not terribly exciting since it caps out on 5th level spells but alright for classes that have already sacrificed levels for something else. In your case tho, it shouldn't be necessary.

Spell-Likes come from Runesmith class; basically a Wizard PRC that can cast in full armor. It's ½ BAB so you kinda suck at fighting until you get Divine Might tho; given your intention to play from level 1 I'd avoid such solutions.

[macdaddy]

If people feel that the:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
or
Fighter 2 /Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Are the best gish builds, then I have no trouble adjusting to doing so. Its obvious that Pal/Sorc/Exorcist synergize better due to the CHA overlap.

I don't have the complete champion, so I don't think the Ranger piece would work for me.


Being a Sorcerer, when I get to 7th level I will cast 6+1/4+1 and will know 4/2. I will easily have all the 1st level spells I want (Grease, Shield, NerveSkitter, Fist of Stone), the 2nd levels will be more difficult (Only 2 of the 4 I want access too: Wraithstrike, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Glitterdust).

Its choosing that 1 spell to cast 3-4 times per day, and having to wait 3 levels to get a 3rd that makes being a sorcerer frustrating to play sometimes:) 3rd/4th and 5th level spell selection choices are much easier though....

[Eldariel]

If people feel that the:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
or
Fighter 2 /Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Are the best gish builds, then I have no trouble adjusting to doing so. Its obvious that Pal/Sorc/Exorcist synergize better due to the CHA overlap.

I don't have the complete champion, so I don't think the Ranger piece would work for me.


Being a Sorcerer, when I get to 7th level I will cast 6+1/4+1 and will know 4/2. I will easily have all the 1st level spells I want (Grease, Shield, NerveSkitter, Fist of Stone), the 2nd levels will be more difficult (Only 2 of the 4 I want access too: Wraithstrike, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Glitterdust).

Its choosing that 1 spell to cast 3-4 times per day, and having to wait 3 levels to get a 3rd that makes being a sorcerer frustrating to play sometimes:) 3rd/4th and 5th level spell selection choices are much easier though....

Wizard has a spell level more. Wizard with Sacred Exorcist is still fine; you just can't get your Charisma to everything. But again, you have an extra spell level which kinda makes up for it.

Wizard can also use Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword+Abjurant Champion+whatever which loses less caster levels early but loses 1 more BAB early and comes online later.

Basically, Fighter 2/Wizard 4 loses 2 casting levels and 2 BAB, Fighter 1/Wizard 6 loses 1 casting level and 3 BAB. While casting levels are obviously stronger and more important, for the character to feel right all the way the former may work better.

The latter will lose the second level of casting if it wishes to acquire 16 BAB without Divine Power too so in the long run they're rather even; it really comes down to which early game progression you prefer. For the record, the typical early game progressions are:

Fighter 1/Wizard 6
or
X 1/Wizard 4/Fighter 1 [or 2 if you took Fighter 1 level 1]

Basically, you start with the full BAB high HD class because it's strictly better in the long run; only difference is you'll have a couple of HP more but that's free HP so why not. If you take X = Barbarian or Ranger, you also have the added benefit of getting a significant number of extra skill points (6 or 12) just by taking that class first.

[hex0]

Or Duskblade instead of Fighter? Free combat casting! Knowledge skills too.

[Godskook]

Here's some gish builds that I've seen:

Classic Sorcadin
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Gets:
-Cha to saves(incredible at high levels.
-16 BAB
-18th CL

Can also be optimized to get a lot of other things you want rather easily, including Cha to AC, sanctified spells, etc.

Master of Masks
Warblade 1/Wizard 4/MoMasks 2/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Knight Phantom +X

Gets:
-16 BAB
-17 CL
-Wizard casting
-If you go Wizard 4/Warblade 1, you get 2 of the 3 save-replacement maneuvers

[tiercel]

You might want to consider carefully looking at when your campaign is most likely to end. You've said that 9th-12th level are common end points for your campaign -- to the extent that it's closer to the *lower* end of that range, you might want to reconsider any classic gish build since you'd be spending the bulk of the campaign *trying* to be a gish and really only starting to get there at the very end.

(You hit a quantum leap when polymorph comes online, given what a sick buff it is; you can certainly look at gish as Before Polymorph and After Polymorph.)

Even if you're more likely to get to 12th level, it's probably best to put a priority on maximizing speed of access to 4th level spells so you can spend as much of the campaign as possible being more a full gish. If you're more likely to be cut off around 9th level, you might want to focus on a build that is more viably gish-like at the low-mid levels: notably Duskblade or even Bard.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider using the Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant from UA, to get another Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Your top choices should include Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, and Improved Toughness.

Instead of starting out Fighter 2/ Wizard 4, you could go something like Human Paragon or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) 3/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2, taking the last two racial paragon levels after Wizard, and end up with the same BAB and the same spellcasting ability, slightly higher average HD, better skill points, +2 to your casting stat (or any stat for Human), plus other benefits.

With that in mind as a substitution, consider something like Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ (1/2 BAB full arcane progression PrC) 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4, which still gets 17th level spellcasting ability and +16 BAB at 20th level. That remaining undecided prestige class can be taken before, during, or after Abjurant Champion depending on how good it is. The best example would be Incantatrix 4, from Player's Guide to Faerun, which can cast a short duration buff and then make a Spellcraft check to add Persistent Spell to it. That's all-day Shield, Wraithstrike, Displacement, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Bladeweave, Greater Mirror Image (PH2), Alter Self, Draconic Polymorph, etc. (You could replace one of those Fighter levels with Ranger 1 and use a Wand of Swift Haste to Persist on days you go adventuring.) If you can't use Incantatrix, two levels of Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion are good for the Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness abilities. Divine Oracle in Complete Divine gives you Evasion at 2 and Uncanny Dodge at 4, and you can use the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to get its feat prerequisite without having to spend a feat on it. There are a considerable number of options for this level build, but Incantatrix is by far the strongest.

If you use a race with the Outsider creature type you'll get proficiency in all martial weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType), so the +0 LA Aasimar or Tiefling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (for which you can wait forever to spend a level (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) on the +1 LA and other racial benefits) would be useful to go something like Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8. That gets +17 BAB and 19th level spellcasting ability. You should definitely stay out of melee until you get Polymorph with this build, but you can use Polymorph and Alter Self for Outsider forms (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5?post_id=33843489 8#338434898). You can use Martial Wizard to get Combat Reflexes at 1st level and use a Glaive to discourage opponents from approaching you, and pick up Power Attack at 5th.

[Wings of Peace]

You want Wizard, Abjurant Champion, and sSpelldancer to Persist all of your buffs. Take Arcane Disciple for the War domain to nab Divine Power. If you can't use Spelldancer then use Anima Mage from Tome of Magic.

[Essence_of_War]

You could try something like this, a slight twist on Eladriel's build

Duskblade2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Duskblade has all knowledges on it's class list so you can make effective use of knowledge devotion early, and it gives all armor profs so you meet Spellsword entry requirements. It also gives you Combat Casting as a bonus feat at 2 to meet AbjChamp entry requirements.

Some ideas for feats might be:
1 - Power Attack
1 (human) - Improved Initiative
2 (Dusk) - Combat Casting (to get into AbjChamp)
3 - Knowledge Devotion
3 (martial wizard) - Combat Reflexes
6 - Devotion Feat (Law or Travel get high marks!)
9 - Minor Shapeshift
12 - Improved Familiar (take an imp!)
15 - Robilar's Gambit?
18 - X

Alternatives:
You can drop or move things for:

Extend Spell (nice for buffs and wraithstrike!),
Persist spell (still nice for buffs, ridic-a-dic with wraithstrike), Able
Able Learner (not all the gish classes have all knowledges, I didn't check, but you might want to!)
Arcane Strike (although you can already do something like this with AbjChamp)
Quicken Spell

The only real non-negotiables (in my mind at least) are Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and Minor Shapeshift.

[Metahuman1]

If you can get access to Sandstorm, there is a PRC in there called Sandshaper.

It is Wonderful too add to Duskblades as it let's you have more then 2 useful Touch attack spells for channeling as well as grabbing some nice things for Buffs. Take 4 or 5 levels and carry a pouch of sand in your backpack and you don't lose caster levels and gain like 20 or more spells known!

Travel Devotion and a cloistered cleric dip or a dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian are also advised. The former nets you Travel devotion and a domain with a useful feat or a useful devotion feat, For the former I like the Time or Planning domain if you can get them. Also, free Knowledge Devotion on top of it. And turn attempts to fuel Devotions of course. Barbarian gives you pounce, and either rage or whirling frenzy (Probably not that helpful with out a house rule.), a second level of it gives you uncanny dodge.

Adding a level or two of Warblade and/or Swordsage, if you have access to Tome of Battle, would give you a good number of other options and add a lot of power on the melee end of things.

[Godskook]

You want Wizard, Abjurant Champion, and sSpelldancer to Persist all of your buffs. Take Arcane Disciple for the War domain to nab Divine Power. If you can't use Spelldancer then use Anima Mage from Tome of Magic.

Divine power is over-rated* on anyone who's already grabbing 16 BAB or better. The +4 BAB end-game BAB typically won't do nothing, and you can often times do better with other feats. Especially since gishes are typically feat-starved as it is.

*Its not a bad feat choice, don't get me wrong.

[Piggy Knowles]

Divine power is over-rated* on anyone who's already grabbing 16 BAB or better. The +4 BAB end-game BAB typically won't do nothing, and you can often times do better with other feats. Especially since gishes are typically feat-starved as it is.

*Its not a bad feat choice, don't get me wrong.

Agreed. It's a cool trick to pick up if you're sacrificing BAB for more caster levels (which, in my opinion, is a good idea), but if you've already got excellent BAB, there are way cooler buffs you can look at. If you're using Spelldancer to persist your buffs, Persistent Wraithstrike is a way cooler option.

That said, it's a very cool choice for straight casters, who want to be able to turn a melee option on when necessary.

Anyhow, my problem with a lot of Gish builds is that they tend to overvalue BAB. To me, BAB is really secondary. Instead, they should be looking at...

1. Long-term buffs. Hours/level buffs, or extended 10 minutes/level ones. There are a ton of these, so mix and match as you will. Some excellent ones that come to mind include Alter Self, False Life, Foresight, Girallon's Blessing, GMW, Heroics, Heroism, Magic Circle, (Greater) Mage Armor, Mind Blank, Overland Flight, and Resist Energy.

2. A way to use all available actions in combat. This means Swift actions, so pick up Quicken Spell, and make sure to keep decent Swift action spells in your repertoire. Some of these, like Wraithstrike or Sure Strike, will directly effect your combat ability, but don't completely disregard other Swift action spells. Blockade, for instance, is always fun.

3. A way to boost your NADs when necessary. Blur and Mirror Image (especially the Greater version) is a common combo for a reason. Seriously, those two spells will protect you better than armor ever could. (Also falling under this are the options that prevent you from losing on the first turn, such as Nerveskitter and Celerity.)

4. A way to turn on "turbo mode." Basically, you want to spend most of your time being a consistent and hard-to-kill SOB, with spells as a back-up. But every now and then, you want to be able to rip a bad guy into shreds immediately. Polymorph is a great example of this. It might be overkill to cast it every combat, but it'll be nice to have it in your back pocket for that one tough fight every day.

To me, a Wizard or Sorcerer 20 could be a fine gish build all on its own, just focusing on these things. If you can get extra BAB shoved in there, cool. But why jump through so many hoops, just for a few +1s?

[hex0]

Do you have access to Swiftblade?

[Godskook]

To me, a Wizard or Sorcerer 20 could be a fine gish build all on its own, just focusing on these things. If you can get extra BAB shoved in there, cool. But why jump through so many hoops, just for a few +1s?

1.In most actual games, Chassis* matters, at least a little, especially since most actual games have few, if any, serious optimizers in them.

2.This always bothers people who like gishes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

-and-


Baron: Ingvar's spectacular toughness is clearly due to having dumped all of his good ability scores into Con and Dex, while neglecting his strength and instead using his old standby (some would say 'crutch') the Gauntlets of Ogre Power with their fixed 18/00 strength score supplanting his feeble natural number. Thus, entering the Antimagic Shell and losing his buffs and magic gear would leave him little more potent than any of our dedicated casters. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if his innate Str would leave him encumbered by his own armor. Am I close to the mark? (http://agc.deskslave.org/excerpt_viewer.html?goNumber=803)

3.Gishes get some pretty powerful melee abilities, and usually sacrifice only minor amounts of their 'base' spellcasting to do it. Overall, this leads to characters who can contribute well all day long, even on days that are longer than your spell slots.

*Chassis is what I call HP/BAB/Saves/Skill points. Y'know, the stuff *EVERYTHING* gets.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Wizard or Sorcerer played as a Gish without any of the standard higher-HD prestige classes will end up dying within a few sessions. Opponents can Great Cleave through Mirror Images, and a few melee hits are going to land despite Displacement or Blur. Many opponents have a breath attack, such as a Chimera, Cryo/Pyrohydra, Frost Worm, and many non-core opponents. A given Wizard or Sorcerer who didn't bother taking any of those higher-HD prestige classes will be seriously regretting having entered melee in the first place after just a few rounds, even with Minor Shapeshift. Plus if you skip Abjurant Champion and just rely on miss chances and Mirror Images, opponents are free to Power Attack for their full BAB and still not have to worry about your AC.

[Piggy Knowles]

2.This always bothers people who like gishes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html


A more traditional gish who steps into an AMF is generally worse than a straight-classed Warrior. Sure, a Wizard 20 would be even worse off, but it pretty considerably hoses both styles of play. Either one is going to be much better off staying outside of its range and using ranged attacks.

The thing is, gishes tend to always these terrible awkward points in the middle of their build, where they're just way behind other characters. Too low on spell slots to cast much, lacking the more effective higher level spells, lacking the class features of your melee brethren, low on HP, low on offensive options. The really well-built ones minimize these low points, but they're always there, and they suck. And until the very end, you're not actually better at fighting than a Warblade or whatever.

To me, the gains just aren't worth it, because you can frequently be just as effective without it - what you lose in BAB, you gain in more spell slots, which can mitigate the difference.

Maybe it's just me. But if I want to play a gish, I'll stick to 19 or 20 levels of full casting classes. If I want to play a fighter with a magical feel to it, I'll play a Duskblade, or a Mystic SotAO Ranger, or re-fluff a ToB class.

[hex0]

To me, the gains just aren't worth it, because you can frequently be just as effective without it - what you lose in BAB, you gain in more spell slots, which can mitigate the difference.

So you would rather not boost your BAB in the beginning? There isn't a drawback to taking Abjurant Champion at level 11 for Wizards...other than taking combat casting. Right? That's usually where the 'sag' is.

[Piggy Knowles]

A Wizard or Sorcerer played as a Gish without any of the standard higher-HD prestige classes will end up dying within a few sessions. Opponents can Great Cleave through Mirror Images, and a few melee hits are going to land despite Displacement or Blur. Many opponents have a breath attack, such as a Chimera, Cryo/Pyrohydra, Frost Worm, and many non-core opponents. A given Wizard or Sorcerer who didn't bother taking any of those higher-HD prestige classes will be seriously regretting having entered melee in the first place after just a few rounds, even with Minor Shapeshift. Plus if you skip Abjurant Champion and just rely on miss chances and Mirror Images, opponents are free to Power Attack for their full BAB and still not have to worry about your AC.

I'm not saying to avoid the other prestige classes - I just think they're icing on the cake for a gish. Sacred Exorcist and Abjurant Champion are pretty much the gold standard for gishes to PrC out into.

But I like to think of it this way: a second level spell can effectively increase my HP total by 11-21 for the day, without straining my actions. If dropping a caster level means going from a d4 HD to a d12, but I lose a second level spell slot, I still come out behind.

And it's also not like a wizard is avoiding AC completely. Alter Self boosts natural armor, Greater Mage Armor or Twilight Mithril Breastplate gives you an actual armor boost, and Magic Circle gives a nice deflection bonus while also being party friendly and warding you against summoned creatures and mind control. (And it plays quite well with Abjurant Champion, too.)


So you would rather not boost your BAB in the beginning? There isn't a drawback to taking Abjurant Champion at level 11 for Wizards...other than taking combat casting. Right? That's usually where the 'sag' is.

Basically, yeah. A point or two of BAB isn't going to make much of a difference at the low levels, and level 1 is kind of a death march for every character, so a wizard with a crossbow isn't going to be THAT much worse off than a fighter. You probably won't start wading into melee until at least level 3, but it's not like you're useless. And by the mid levels, you can be a better gish than the one that took an overly complicated Sorcerer/Paladin/Spellsword/whatever build.

[Godskook]

Magic Circle gives a nice deflection bonus while also being party friendly and warding you against summoned creatures and mind control. (And it plays quite well with Abjurant Champion, too.)

It does nothing 'extra' with Abjurant Champion that's worth noting.

[Piggy Knowles]

It does nothing 'extra' with Abjurant Champion that's worth noting.

Auto-extending and quickening it isn't worth noting?

[Eldariel]

Auto-extending and quickening it isn't worth noting?

Quickens only to up to 3rd level spells; not really all that major. The Extend is pretty decent tho, and Abjurant Armor is actually a great ability amounting to +10 AC on the maximum level (or "Since it's free it's actually pretty useful").

[Piggy Knowles]

Quickens only to up to 3rd level spells; not really all that major. The Extend is pretty decent tho, and Abjurant Armor is actually a great ability amounting to +10 AC on the maximum level (or "Since it's free it's actually pretty useful").

Sure... but the question at hand is what Abjurant Champion does for Magic Circle. It's a third level Abjuration spell, therefore it gets auto-quickened by Abjurant Champion. And auto-extend on a nice 10 minutes/level buff is nice, too. Hence me claiming that it "plays quite well with Abjurant Champion."

[Wings of Peace]

Divine power is over-rated* on anyone who's already grabbing 16 BAB or better. The +4 BAB end-game BAB typically won't do nothing, and you can often times do better with other feats. Especially since gishes are typically feat-starved as it is.

*Its not a bad feat choice, don't get me wrong.

Self scrubbed because I can't read.

[Amphetryon]

1.In most actual games, Chassis* matters, at least a little, especially since most actual games have few, if any, serious optimizers in them.Do you have statistics to back that up?

[Wings of Peace]

If you have Weapons of Legacy as one of your available books it would be worth looking into taking levels in Legacy Champion after you take your levels in Abjurant Champion.

[macdaddy]

I read through duskblade and while it has some nice features, the majority of it is pretty weak.

I am not sure that starting with 2 levels of Duskblade is actually worth it. I don't have the complete champion (maybe I can talk my way into using it?), so the Knowledge devotion feat, while cool, probably won't be available. Having Knowledge(planes), Knowledge(Arcane) and Knowledge(Religion) at 5 by 2nd level and getting that feat by 3rd level would be pretty cool. An extra +1 to +2 against undead and/or outsiders would be quite useful.

Without that feat however.... a fighter may be a better choice.

Knowledge Devotion and Minor Shape shift are borderline broken feats. Law and Travel are strong, but not overpowered.

Thanks for pointing out all those feats (from Complete Champion). If they are available, I will definitely structure to take them.

It looks like Ftr 2, Wiz 4 is looking more and more like the starting point (unless CC is available, then the skills and Knowledge from Duskblade would be a solid starting point, though their available spells at that point pretty much suck). That gives me some decent CC and survivability and then decent magic, getting haste by 7th and polymorph by 9th level.

[Godskook]

Auto-extending and quickening it isn't worth noting?

*facepalm*

Sorry, so used to some other stuff I just assumed you were talking about the AC bonus thing. My bad.

[Essence_of_War]

I read through duskblade and while it has some nice features, the majority of it is pretty weak.

I am not sure that starting with 2 levels of Duskblade is actually worth it. I don't have the complete champion (maybe I can talk my way into using it?), so the Knowledge devotion feat, while cool, probably won't be available. Having Knowledge(planes), Knowledge(Arcane) and Knowledge(Religion) at 5 by 2nd level and getting that feat by 3rd level would be pretty cool. An extra +1 to +2 against undead and/or outsiders would be quite useful.

Without that feat however.... a fighter may be a better choice.

Knowledge Devotion and Minor Shape shift are borderline broken feats. Law and Travel are strong, but not overpowered.

Thanks for pointing out all those feats (from Complete Champion). If they are available, I will definitely structure to take them.

It looks like Ftr 2, Wiz 4 is looking more and more like the starting point (unless CC is available, then the skills and Knowledge from Duskblade would be a solid starting point, though their available spells at that point pretty much suck). That gives me some decent CC and survivability and then decent magic, getting haste by 7th and polymorph by 9th level.

I don't think I'd go so far as to say that either Knowledge Devotion or Minor Shapeshift are bordering on broken. They are sure as hell better than stuff like weapon focus though.

If you don't have access to Knowledge Devotion, the advantages you get from starting as a duskblade are basically non-existent. Go with the fighter.