"I cast orb of fire and make it sonic damage!"

[Half-orc Bard]

Of the Orbs of X spells orb of fire is my favorite. The problem is that fire resistance and immunity is pretty common. Then I saw the Energy Substitution feat (CA). The feat lets you swap out the energy of a spell, like you could have a cold damage fireball. Now what if I use that feat on Orb of Fire to make it do acid damage? Does it sicken or daze the target?

[Lateral]

Daze. It's still the same spell, just with different energy damage; using Energy Substitution (Acid) on an Orb of Fire makes it an acid-substituted Orb of Fire, not an Orb of Acid.

[Boci]

This is far more amusing with ball, which lists setting ogjects on fire as part of its affect. Energy substitution only alters the damage type, so coldball still sets things on fire.

Also, sonic is no longer a valid energy type for energy substitution.

[Half-orc Bard]

sonic is no longer a valid energy type for energy substitution.

darn but wow coldballing something and lighting it on fire that sounds soooo fun

[TurtleKing]

So cold it burns!

[Legendairy]

Also, sonic is no longer a valid energy type for energy substitution.

What? When did i miss that?

[Boci]

What? When did i miss that?

Not longer listed in the complte arcane version, which is the most recent one AFAIK. Makes sense since it would be pointless to choose any other energy. The similar ability of the archmage does allow sonic however.

[Dusk Eclipse]

TBH I prefer Searing Spell (MM +1 from Sandstom), "I conjure a fire so hot it can burn creatures made of fire!!"

:smallcool:

[magic9mushroom]

TBH I prefer Searing Spell (MM +1 from Sandstom), "I conjure a fire so hot it can burn creatures made of fire!!"

:smallcool:

It's really dodgy how Searing Spell can burn [Fire] while Piercing Cold can't freeze [Cold].

I mean, hellfire hurting [Fire] is one thing (hellfire is approximately +2-3 given Hellfire does 5d8 at level 4 to Fireball's 10d6 at level 3), but a mere +1 metamagic? Puh-lease.

[Acanous]

Well, if you want it a higher mod, combine it with Fell Drain.
Now it burns so hot, it melts away part of your soul

[Dusk Eclipse]

It's really dodgy how Searing Spell can burn [Fire] while Piercing Cold can't freeze [Cold].

I mean, hellfire hurting [Fire] is one thing (hellfire is approximately +2-3 given Hellfire does 5d8 at level 4 to Fireball's 10d6 at level 3), but a mere +1 metamagic? Puh-lease.

The feat itself says it can burn through fire resistance and deal half damage through immunity



SEARING SPELL [METAMAGIC]
<snip> and
affected creatures with immunity to fire still take half
damage. This feat can be applied only to spells with the
fi re descriptor.

[Acanous]

makes me wonder if Vilefire spells with Searing Spell deal full damage.
I mean, the one says "Half of this spell's damage is Vile damage and unresistable" and the other says "Creatures with Fire Immunity still take half".

[MikolasTheAngry]

makes me wonder if Vilefire spells with Searing Spell deal full damage.
I mean, the one says "Half of this spell's damage is Vile damage and unresistable" and the other says "Creatures with Fire Immunity still take half".

I'd say they take 75%. Working with just 100 damage for ease:

50 is Vile and 50 is fire.

The 50 fire would normally be resisted, but they take half of the fire damage from Searing Spell.

So they take 50 Vile damage and 25 Fire damage.

[Acanous]

"Some days, it just sucks being a fire elemental"

[MikolasTheAngry]

"Some days, it just sucks being a fire elemental"

I wonder if there's some sort of alternate-element template you can apply on top of a fire elemental. Cold fire elemental anyone?

[Douglas]

The feat itself says it can burn through fire resistance and deal half damage through immunity
Yes, it does. The complaint here is how it makes no sense from a fluff standpoint for any fire, no matter how hot, to burn a creature that is literally made of fire rather than just immune to it. Piercing Cold deals with the corresponding idea of "you can't damage ice by freezing it" by stipulating that immunity granted by the [cold] subtype still works. Searing Spell has no such exception for the [fire] subtype, though from a fluff and comparative balance perspective it probably should.

[Safety Sword]

....though from a fluff and comparative balance perspective it probably should.

This is the 3.5 version of D&D. Stop applying logic where it does not belong. It is unbecoming of you douglas :smalltongue:

[Arbane]

Yes, it does. The complaint here is how it makes no sense from a fluff standpoint for any fire, no matter how hot, to burn a creature that is literally made of fire rather than just immune to it.

I dunno about that. I'm made of meat, but getting punched with fists (made of meat) still hurts...

[NNescio]

Throw a stick of dynamite into a fire. Voilà no fire.

(And most explosive effects in the game tend to be statted out as fire damage anyway, barring stuff like Explosive Runes.)

[Safety Sword]

I dunno about that. I'm made of meat, but getting punched with fists (made of meat) still hurts...

A lot. Depending on how well the other person does it, of course.

Then again, this is D&D. If you live on a plane made of fire, it would be hard to live there if you were vulnerable to it.

And there's probably a plane of "even hotter fire" too :smallwink:

[Lord.Sorasen]

darn but wow coldballing something and lighting it on fire that sounds soooo fun

Also things like ice storm [acid] and freezing fog [fire]. Freezing sphere is also wonderful, as you can now freeze bodies of water with lightning. I'm a bit upset sleet storm [sonic] can't be a thing.

[Blisstake]

[Fire] Freezing Sphere.

I burned the water so bad, it froze over!

[Drelua]

I dunno about that. I'm made of meat, but getting punched with fists (made of meat) still hurts...

If there wasn't also bone in fists they wouldn't hurt you very much. Slap yourself in the face with a steak and see how painful that is.:smallamused: Of course, you're comparison makes no sense anyway. You find a massive fire, shoot it with a flamethrower, and see what happens. Don't shoot at the base of the fire, the things that are actually burning, shoot at the flames themselves. Absolutely nothing will happen to the fire, which is exactly what would happen if you tried to burn a fire elemental. The term 'fight fire with fire' only applies when the fire is actually coming from something burning.

No amount of heat can burn flames.:smallwink:

[GoatBoy]

Not longer listed in the complte arcane version, which is the most recent one AFAIK. Makes sense since it would be pointless to choose any other energy. The similar ability of the archmage does allow sonic however.

This.

It's a bit tricksy because there is a version of Energy Substitution in 3.0's Gods & Demigods, which is included as part of the OGL. The older version lists all energy types, even in the 3.5 SRD, while the Complete Arcane version of the feat excludes sonic.

It's the one instance I can think of where a core-only game is more powerful than its alternative (assuming core-only includes the whole SRD). Feel free to say so if there are others.

[John Campbell]

Not longer listed in the complte arcane version, which is the most recent one AFAIK. Makes sense since it would be pointless to choose any other energy.
Sometimes you do have to fight slaadi.

In our last campaign, actually, our sorcerer got frustrated because he'd picked fire spells for all of his attack spells, and everything and its brother is resistant or immune to fire, so he was pretty much useless all the time. So I recommended, when he got a new 4th level spell, that he pick up orb of sound, because practically nothing resists sonic.

Our next dungeon was full of slaadi.

His metagame's not that good.

Mine is, but my character didn't have the relevant Knowledges to back it up, so I had a great excuse for sitting there snickering behind my hand while he proudly busted out his brand-new spell on the boss slaad...

[Dusk Eclipse]

This.

It's a bit tricksy because there is a version of Energy Substitution in 3.0's Gods & Demigods, which is included as part of the OGL. The older version lists all energy types, even in the 3.5 SRD, while the Complete Arcane version of the feat excludes sonic.

It's the one instance I can think of where a core-only game is more powerful than its alternative (assuming core-only includes the whole SRD). Feel free to say so if there are others.

Then it is a SRD only game, as Core is just the PHB, MM and DMG

[ThiefInTheNight]

Sometimes you do have to fight slaadi.

In our last campaign, actually, our sorcerer got frustrated because he'd picked fire spells for all of his attack spells, and everything and its brother is resistant or immune to fire, so he was pretty much useless all the time. So I recommended, when he got a new 4th level spell, that he pick up orb of sound, because practically nothing resists sonic.

Our next dungeon was full of slaadi.

His metagame's not that good.

Mine is, but my character didn't have the relevant Knowledges to back it up, so I had a great excuse for sitting there snickering behind my hand while he proudly busted out his brand-new spell on the boss slaad...
I don't know the background of what your DM had planned there, but that strikes me as suspicious. The sorcerer's not having a good time because everything's resistant to his spells, so he gets a new spell of a rarely-resisted type, and all of a sudden you're fighting one of the few things that is resistant to it? That seems like it ought to have been a place for the DM to throw the sorcerer a bone...

(though it could have just been something already-planned, demanded by the plot, or it could have been intended to help the sorc by having something not-fire-resistant, I admit. Depends when the DM made the decision and why)

[John Campbell]

I don't know the background of what your DM had planned there, but that strikes me as suspicious. The sorcerer's not having a good time because everything's resistant to his spells, so he gets a new spell of a rarely-resisted type, and all of a sudden you're fighting one of the few things that is resistant to it? That seems like it ought to have been a place for the DM to throw the sorcerer a bone...

(though it could have just been something already-planned, demanded by the plot, or it could have been intended to help the sorc by having something not-fire-resistant, I admit. Depends when the DM made the decision and why)

It was a published adventure that we'd already been set up for, though we had no idea when levelling up that it was going to involve slaadi, and I don't think the DM knew that the sorcerer had decided to take orb of sound for his new spell. That was the result of separate conversations between me and the sorc's player about why his characters always sucked - the reason being that he always played the same character, a CN (half-)elf sorcerer who used half of his spells known redundantly filling a single purpose, that purpose being blasting with the most widely-resisted energy type while snickering Beavis and Butthead-style. I wasn't able to convince him then to try something besides blasting, but I did convince him to diversify his energy types a little. "Try sonic. Pretty much nothing resists sonic..." I may have quoted V., too.

And then we fought the exception.

He was able to effectively bust out the fire after that, and was generally a lot more effective than I was... playing a fighter-rogue, and just couldn't hit them. But there was still that moment of hilarity as he proudly brought out his shiny new spell, pronounced how nothing resisted it, made his touch attack, and collected d4s from everyone to roll the damage, while the DM was telling him not to bother...

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno about that. I'm made of meat, but getting punched with fists (made of meat) still hurts...

That was my thought. Just because you're made of the same stuff doesn't mean structure is unimportant.

It makes as much sense as hitting the fire elemental with an arrow, at least.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Sometimes you do have to fight slaadi.

In our last campaign, actually, our sorcerer got frustrated because he'd picked fire spells for all of his attack spells, and everything and its brother is resistant or immune to fire, so he was pretty much useless all the time. So I recommended, when he got a new 4th level spell, that he pick up orb of sound, because practically nothing resists sonic.

Our next dungeon was full of slaadi.

His metagame's not that good.

Mine is, but my character didn't have the relevant Knowledges to back it up, so I had a great excuse for sitting there snickering behind my hand while he proudly busted out his brand-new spell on the boss slaad...

Also hammerclaw.

[Daftendirekt]

Of the Orbs of X spells orb of fire is my favorite. The problem is that fire resistance and immunity is pretty common. Then I saw the Energy Substitution feat (CA). The feat lets you swap out the energy of a spell, like you could have a cold damage fireball. Now what if I use that feat on Orb of Fire to make it do acid damage? Does it sicken or daze the target?

Why not just learn... Orb of Acid?! Or Orb of Sound. Or Cold. Unless you're a sorcerer and not a wizard, getting a couple more spells is way easier and cost-effective than a feat that could be used on something better.

[Talya]

Yes, it does. The complaint here is how it makes no sense from a fluff standpoint for any fire, no matter how hot, to burn a creature that is literally made of fire rather than just immune to it. Piercing Cold deals with the corresponding idea of "you can't damage ice by freezing it" by stipulating that immunity granted by the [cold] subtype still works. Searing Spell has no such exception for the [fire] subtype, though from a fluff and comparative balance perspective it probably should.

I apologize in advance for the catgirls I am about to kill.

It makes perfect sense, from a physics standpoint.

"Cold" is defined as a lack of heat. You don't "add" cold to something to freeze them, you take away heat. The theoretical temperature known as "Absolute Zero" (−273.15 °C) represents a complete lack of heat, maximum entropy within the subject. You cannot get colder than that.

Heat, on the other hand, has no theoretical maximum. 100 °C, 1000 °C, 10000 °C, 100000 °C ...they're all possible. The temperature at the moment of the big bang is estimated to have been about 4 TRILLION degrees celsius. Give or take a bit.

[Devmaar]

Why not just learn... Orb of Acid?! Or Orb of Sound. Or Cold. Unless you're a sorcerer and not a wizard, getting a couple more spells is way easier and cost-effective than a feat that could be used on something better.

Fire comes with a better status effect

[Daftendirekt]

If you want status effects, why not do something besides a pure damage spell?

[Seatbelt]

If you want status effects, why not do something besides a pure damage spell?

Because you can do both with an orb spell.

[Thespianus]

Throw a stick of dynamite into a fire. Voilà no fire.)

Acschully, that's only true if you have a blast cap on the stick of dynamite. Otherwise, the dynamite just burns. My granddad worked as a miner, he used to tell fun stories... :-)

[Blisstake]

Because you can do both with an orb spell.

And bypass SR while you're at it, if I recall correctly.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, in my group we've seen a few electricity-focused casters. I played a Sorcerer/Stormcaster and was Energy Subbing Orb of Cold to do electricity damage (because Orb of Electricity is lame). The other guy had things like Energy Subbed Acid Sheath or Energy Subbed Combust (which set things on electricity?). Also apparently "combust" isn't a word in Firefox's dictionary.

[sdream]

I apologize in advance for the catgirls I am about to kill.

It makes perfect sense, from a physics standpoint.

"Cold" is defined as a lack of heat. You don't "add" cold to something to freeze them, you take away heat. The theoretical temperature known as "Absolute Zero" (−273.15 °C) represents a complete lack of heat, maximum entropy within the subject. You cannot get colder than that.

Heat, on the other hand, has no theoretical maximum. 100 °C, 1000 °C, 10000 °C, 100000 °C ...they're all possible. The temperature at the moment of the big bang is estimated to have been about 4 TRILLION degrees celsius. Give or take a bit.


"Cold" is lack of energy. Even creatures who have a very low energy and suck energy from everything around them have to have energy to keep moving. Suck away ALL their energy and unless they have no mass, they cannot move.

Cold attacks deal damage based on what percentage of the foe's energy they can suck away, and this can always increase up to "everything he's got" (killing him).

[noparlpf]

"Cold" is lack of energy. Even creatures who have a very low energy and suck energy from everything around them have to have energy to keep moving. Suck away ALL their energy and unless they have no mass, they cannot move.

Cold attacks deal damage based on what percentage of the foe's energy they can suck away, and this can always increase up to "everything he's got" (killing him).

Not even "everything he's got", just "enough that his vital functions can no longer function".


By the way, I love catgirls, and I'm a science major. Damn it.

[NNescio]

Acschully, that's only true if you have a blast cap on the stick of dynamite. Otherwise, the dynamite just burns. My granddad worked as a miner, he used to tell fun stories... :-)

When somebody says "Toss an [explosive] at something", it's generally implied that it will already be primed.

[Thespianus]

When somebody says "Toss an [explosive] at something", it's generally implied that it will already be primed.

But this is the internet. ;)

[stainboy]

This is far more amusing with ball, which lists setting ogjects on fire as part of its affect. Energy substitution only alters the damage type, so coldball still sets things on fire.

Also, sonic is no longer a valid energy type for energy substitution.

But but slaadi resist sonic so it's totally balanced :P

Sonic damage is kind of balanced in the Tippyverse. Blasphemy amd friends are [sonic] so anyone who can't generate a Silence effect (and fight effectively in it) has already been killed by an outsider teleport-blasphemy bomb.