Debuffing in PF

[Angry Bob]

I'm playing in a PF game this friday, with probably just Core and the Advanced player's guide available to begin with. No 3.5 material, the shift to PF was because the DM was sick of it.

I'm strongly considering playing a witch, a half-orc witch if not strongly contraindicated. I just would like an idea of how well this class can perform a support role in a party.

From what I can see, she has a really short spell list compared to the wizard/sorcerer list as the major sticking point. Does proper patron selection cover all of your bases as a full caster, or are there still some glaring holes in your repertoire?

Keep in mind this game is unlikely to go beyond level six or seven, as much as I wish it would do otherwise.

tl;dr: Effing witches, how do they work?

[TurtleKing]

I'll just leave a link to a thread I did looking for something similar. Ends up being Witch for debuffing. While the thread may be about certin forms of necromancy it relates to debuffs. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211451

[Kenneth]

think of the wicth like a more focused wizard.

and then get teh slumber hex! its is stupidely great!

basically just about everyspell that a wizard has that is crazy battlefield controll/debuff the witch has plus some radnom cleric spells.

also remember to LOL at your DM in your brain for swticthng to PF becuase he was sick of 3.5 that like going from sweet tea to sweet tea with one drop of lemon....

[Angry Bob]

also remember to LOL at your DM in your brain for swticthng to PF becuase he was sick of 3.5 that like going from sweet tea to sweet tea with one drop of lemon....

I'd rather not start a Pathfinder debate. The only thing I really have to say is that I would have preferred switching to a different system entirely and that the only good thing about d20 is that you never have to ask "so, is anyone at this table familiar with d20?"

And the main impetus for switching was basically that 3.5 had too many books to sift through for stuff. You can play PF with all sources allowed and not have to look through a whole lot of material. Like I said earlier though, I'd rather not debate about the quality of the system. I'm playing it because everyone else is, and no one else is complaining, so I won't.

[TurtleKing]

Note that while you have the spells for debuffing try to keep the hexes as the main source of debuffing since you don't run out. Evil Eye while seeming to be a bit meh is in fact awesome. Reason is all the rest have it affecting a person only once that day. Evil Eye is however spammable able to affect multiple parts of the character. Combine with Cackle to prolong the duration, and Cackle uses a move action so can Evil Eye then Cackle, rinse and repeat each round. Evil Eye should be your first hex and Cackle your second hex for debuffers. After that Misfortune, Slumber, and Agony are useful. Don't get Slumber too soon since the effect lasts rounds per Witch level. Misfortune and Agony both benefit from Cackle so as to make that choice more useful. Charm could even prove useful depending on use. That thread that I did does help outline the classes capabilities as a debuffers.

[Arbane]

From what I can see, she has a really short spell list compared to the wizard/sorcerer list as the major sticking point. Does proper patron selection cover all of your bases as a full caster, or are there still some glaring holes in your repertoire?

From my own look (and admittedly low-level experience), there's still some big gaps in a witch's spell capabilities compared to a wizard, but not much that will cramp you at low levels. And you can heal!



tl;dr: Effing witches, how do they work?

Get either Evil Eye or Misfortune at level one. Spam them mercilessly, and watch your enemies flounder.

Take Extra Hex: Cackle at level one, and use it every round, so that the hurting never stops for your victims.

This should keep you happily busy in most fights, but add spells as needed when an enemy actually makes their Save vs Suck, or to boost your allies.

Keep your familiar OUT of harm's way. It's not expendable.

Anything specific you'd like to know?

[TurtleKing]

Evil Eye is the go to debuff hex. They made the save? Fine it only reduced the duration not negate the hex. Wait you applied it once so can't for another 24 hours right? Wrong! You can spam it again and again on the same target if you choose. While the rest are once per day per target so if you failed oh well next target. So Evil Eye while it doesn't do much it does work again and again. Save the others when the chance of succeeding hopefully is higher. Oh wait target the saves to increase the chance to succeed even more.

[Arbane]

Evil Eye is the go to debuff hex.

Evil Eye is quite good, but does have two possible downsides:
- It's mind-affecting, so a lot of enemies are immune to it.
- Casting it repeatedly to give an enemy -2 to EVERYTHING is fun, but it'll keep you busy when you could be making other enemies suffer, too.

The best solution, of course, is to take both Evil Eye _and_ Misfortune.

On a tangent: If your GM uses any sort of Fumble rules, Misfortune gets even better, giving your enemies even more chances to humiliate themselves.

[TurtleKing]

That is true though is also true for your hexes as being single target. So you have to take the time to spread the love around. There are ways to make them aoes but they now incure certain downsides.

[subject42]

Don't get Slumber too soon since the effect lasts rounds per Witch level.

Even at first level slumber isn't bad, since it takes the enemy out of action for a round and then forces them to get back up off the ground after they regain consciousness.

(Evil Eye is probably better at first level, though)

[Arbane]

That is true though is also true for your hexes as being single target. So you have to take the time to spread the love around. There are ways to make them aoes but they now incure certain downsides.

I know about Split Hex, but is there an actual AoE Hex trick?

[Ashram]

Well, to be fair, Pathfinder actually has a lot of content out... If you play with the campaign setting material. The Archives of Nethys ( http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ ) has all of the non-core Pathfinder feats, items, gear and so on.

Also sucks that you can't use Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. I wanna say Ultimate Magic might have more witch hexes.

[subject42]

Also sucks that you can't use Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. I wanna say Ultimate Magic might have more witch hexes.

Most of the hexes in Ultimate Magic are kind of underwhelming.

"So, what did you get with your class feature?"

"I got the ability to temporarily leap into an extradimensional space and avoid the raging torrents of fire called forth by enemy mages. What about you?"

"I CAN SMELL BABIES."

[TurtleKing]

Split Hex isn't available till 10th level. There is a way to turn a hex into a spell. The problem there is things you have to worry about with spells and the limited casting. Some things that can hinder spellcasting don't affect hexes.

[Blisstake]

"I CAN SMELL BABIES."

I don't think that was intended for players to take. Something added to give potential witches the "antagonist in a fairy tale" sort of feel.

[Arbane]

Most of the hexes in Ultimate Magic are kind of underwhelming.
(snip)
"I CAN SMELL BABIES."

:smallbiggrin:

They also got Ice Tomb, which is pretty nice.


I don't think that was intended for players to take. Something added to give potential witches the "antagonist in a fairy tale" sort of feel.

Along with Cook People, Blight, and a few others, plus a decent chunk of their spell-list.

Since Baba Yaga is apparently a Big Bad in Golarion, I'm surprised Witches don't have an Eat Anything hex - if I remember my fairy-tales right, she chewed her way through a _forest_ once.

[subject42]

Since Baba Yaga is apparently a Big Bad in Golarion, I'm surprised Witches don't have an Eat Anything hex - if I remember my fairy-tales right, she chewed her way through a _forest_ once.

I'm sure that will be in Ultimat-er Magic (2012) or Ultimatest Magic (2013), along with Impressive Wart, Craft Hallucinogen, and Lighter Than A Duck, Improved.

[Arbane]

Lighter Than A Duck, Improved.

:smallbiggrin:

That one's redundant with the Fly hex, though.

[subject42]

:smallbiggrin:

That one's redundant with the Fly hex, though.

Nonono, this Hex will also make you lighter than very small rocks.