Dread Necromancer clarification

[gibbo88]

So let me get this right, the Dread Necro gets (4+cha mod) HD per level? Isn't that a bit...unbalanced? That is a lot of undead...80 for you if you have 6 cha at level 8.

[Gullintanni]

This is correct. Fear the Dread Necromancer. For he is Legion.

That being said the amount of book keeping required usually results in players making a few really big undead rather than a swarm of little ones. Easier for the player to manage that way. Also a lot easier for the DM to manage that way.

[Fouredged Sword]

And with the right shinanagins with CL and raise dead cL-HD caps, you can make it all just a few 20-30 hd creatures. Yay.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Also, Undead tend to be weak for their HD.

[Urpriest]

If you're not screwing around with the caps on the HD of any single undead then your undead aren't any more powerful. If you are, then you still would have had enough room anyway, even given all such methods available. So all it's doing is giving you more undead, which isn't going to be a problem unless you go for more extensive minionmancy tactics, and if your DM is ok with you doing that he would also be ok with you doing that with Handle Animal, which is much cheaper.

[NeoSeraphi]

I agree with Ur-Priest, but I'd like to point out that Dread Necromancers make fantastic BBEGs. They are full casters with a formidable spell list that is neatly packaged into one page with no splatbooks, he knows every spell on his list and casts spontaneously so the DM has absolutely no need to prepare spells, he just points and chooses, the dread necro comes with free DR, casts in +5 mithral full plate with no problems, has a free martial weapon proficiency, has fortification (doesn't matter how much fortification he has, if the DM can make the roll, the DM can lie about the roll), and a fear aura that has no duration.

Add all that to the fact that he is an arcane caster (So he can take Arcane Thesis (Enervation) ), and the fact that he can control 4+his ridiculous Cha mod/HD of undead (not including the undead he rebukes), and you can have an army of skeletons and zombies before reaching the guy. (By army, I don't mean the 20 or so 1 HD skeletons that a wizard or cleric might be able to muster, I mean an army. 40-100 undead, easily. All of them fall pretty quickly in the face of skilled PCs, but it makes for an epic fight scene, thematically speaking)

[Silva Stormrage]

I agree with Ur-Priest, but I'd like to point out that Dread Necromancers make fantastic BBEGs. They are full casters with a formidable spell list that is neatly packaged into one page with no splatbooks, he knows every spell on his list and casts spontaneously so the DM has absolutely no need to prepare spells, he just points and chooses, the dread necro comes with free DR, casts in +5 mithral full plate with no problems, has a free martial weapon proficiency, has fortification (doesn't matter how much fortification he has, if the DM can make the roll, the DM can lie about the roll), and a fear aura that has no duration.

Add all that to the fact that he is an arcane caster (So he can take Arcane Thesis (Enervation) ), and the fact that he can control 4+his ridiculous Cha mod/HD of undead (not including the undead he rebukes), and you can have an army of skeletons and zombies before reaching the guy. (By army, I don't mean the 20 or so 1 HD skeletons that a wizard or cleric might be able to muster, I mean an army. 40-100 undead, easily. All of them fall pretty quickly in the face of skilled PCs, but it makes for an epic fight scene, thematically speaking)

I agree complelty except Dread Necromancers can't cast in mithril full plate since its medium armor. They CAN cast in mithril breast plates though :smalltongue:

[Talya]

If you're not screwing around with the caps on the HD of any single undead then your undead aren't any more powerful.


Dragon skeletons/zombies have no HD cap for the individual creatures. Nothing prevents a DN from making a Gold Great Wyrm Zombie. (Nothing other than trying to find the corpse of one, anyway.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree complelty except Dread Necromancers can't cast in mithril full plate since its medium armor. They CAN cast in mithril breast plates though :smalltongue:

Fortunately, there's a Feat for that (tm). Specifically, it's called Armored Mage, and increases the ability to ignore ASF from light to medium armor.

Also, the calculations were a bit off... it's not 60-100... it's literally HUNDREDS. This is the BBEG, after all, stat-stacking is implied.

Also, any Dread Necromancer focusing on minionmancy needs ways of increasing the effectiveness of said minions. Throw in a Bard every so often with Requiem feat and IC/DFI. Make the mini-boss be a War Chanter, whose minions have a higher BAB than the party, dishing out insane damage per hit. Make them something like skeletal leopards with Pounce, and your PC's will never look at 'minor nuisances' the same way again.

[Fouredged Sword]

That is what a scroll of PAO is for silly:smallbiggrin:

Find (make) large pile of bodies - check
Read scroll - check
get gold dragon body - check

Same kingdom - +5
Same class - dead bodies - +2
Same size - +2
realated - +2
total 11, you only need 9.

Then you get a bunch of onix and go to town.
3,000 gp for the scroll, 1025 gp for onix. Doable by 10th level or so.

41 HD flying collosal zombie with a breath weapon... Priceless.

I chalenge you to find a better use of 5000gp.

[FearlessGnome]

41 HD flying collosal zombie with a breath weapon... Priceless.

I chalenge you to find a better use of 5000gp.

...Down payment on a Candle of Invocation? :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, dragon zomies sound great.

[Gullintanni]

Dragon skeletons/zombies have no HD cap for the individual creatures. Nothing prevents a DN from making a Gold Great Wyrm Zombie. (Nothing other than trying to find the corpse of one, anyway.)


...Down payment on a Candle of Invocation? :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, dragon zomies sound great.

The rules to do this are only available if you have access to the Draconomicon...that being said, if you want to focus on Draconic undead, I suggest you acquire said text with all possible haste. The draconic Skeletal and Zombie templates located within the text are vastly superior to the vanilla versions.

[Fouredged Sword]

Though this also works even without the extra control pool. Comand undead is a 2nd level spell and works for days. No reason you can't do it as a wizard.

Also no reason you can't theroreticly blow all your WBL to do this and start the game with 10 or so 41 HD zombie dragons. Get the magic collars that make them small without stat changes. Laugh as you have little flamethrowers that decimate armies.

Be ready to dodge books though.

[Pechvarry]

This is why I still find it odd that a Dread Necromancer is classified as "tier 3". Sure, it can't break the campaign world as easily as a Wizard, but it automatically breaks the campaign when everyone loses interest in the setting before your first turn is done. Indeed, I feel like it takes more optimization and system finesse to not kill the fun of a game group.

Of course, unlike most of The Internet, I don't really mind casters breaking the world nearly as much as I care about them replacing other party members. And I just can't see why I would need a Warblade in my party when (to steal Schneeky's format), There's an Undead For That™.

[Fouredged Sword]

I did this once actualy. I didn't use dragons that old, and I had each of the party members wear a harness. The now small zombie dragons would grab the harness and fly, acting as overland movement for the party.

The collar is a 3.0 book, can't remember what one, but it doesn't lower the user's str score and dragons are quadrapeds, so even though the dragons where small they still had silly lift abilities and a 150ft fly speed. We used them like jetpacks.

They stayed out of comabt though, as I wasn't intrerested in braeking the game.

[Urpriest]

Dragon skeletons/zombies have no HD cap for the individual creatures. Nothing prevents a DN from making a Gold Great Wyrm Zombie. (Nothing other than trying to find the corpse of one, anyway.)

I don't mean the Zombie/Skeleton HD caps, I mean the "able to be animated in one casting" cap. Which, as you point out, is much higher than the "able to get a corpse without PAO cheese" cap.

[Fouredged Sword]

In a desicrated area it can be 4XCL and you can do some things to boost CL without very much investment. At level 10 zombifieing a 41 hd dragon isn't even that hard.

[marcielle]

Class features are significantly less tempting after level 8 but if you CAN actually get all your HD of minions used up SMARTLY, you are probably tier 2, since you can get so much versatility and power out of SLAs of funky undead. IIRC there was an undead that actually PREVENTED DIVINE CASTING by just being around. There was a roll involved but if you get 20(not really a problem, I think they were like 4 HD), even higher level clerics will fail quite consistently. And slaymates. I can't remember if their metamagic mitigator stacks but if they did then 10 if those 2 HD beauties will pretty much let you stack on as much metamagic as you likely have feat slots for. In the end, aside from 1 or 2 bruisers, to take hits, you'll want undead for their abilities, not for their killing power. Vargouille(or any flying/incorporeal spawner) swarm let loose on an enemy nation's villages will ravage it in a matter of weeks with careful planning and coordination.

[Fouredged Sword]

You want things that have neat abilites (useing mini dragons to fly is one I like) and a slaymate is great (they don't stack, all the same ability, but still, free metamagic... at least heighten everything). Spellstiching is also a great way to provide some great spellcasting support without much cost. Spellstiched control undead into comanding undead units is a great way to expand your pool.

[Pechvarry]

funky undead.

Quotable..

[Coidzor]

Get the magic collars that make them small without stat changes.

Do you recall a source on those?


I don't mean the Zombie/Skeleton HD caps, I mean the "able to be animated in one casting" cap. Which, as you point out, is much higher than the "able to get a corpse without PAO cheese" cap.

I wonder how the stone to flesh cheese cap compares.

[Fouredged Sword]

PAO cheeze has a glareing weakness. Dispell effects become save or dies for your undead. Not optimal.

[Urpriest]

PAO cheeze has a glareing weakness. Dispell effects become save or dies for your undead. Not optimal.

Stone to flesh cheese is indeed better, yeah. Though in both cases I as a DM would say that the Zombie and Skeleton templates say almost nothing about the shape of the corpse and base their stats on the previous creature. So I'd give you a Zombie Flesh-Statue based on statue stats that just happened to look like a Gold Dragon.

[gibbo88]

And I have to ask what the flesh to stone cheese is now.

Thinking my Gnome True Necromancer will just have skeletons carry him around the place in a nice covered seat. And use a Wyvern when flight is needed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And I have to ask what the flesh to stone cheese is now.

Thinking my Gnome True Necromancer will just have skeletons carry him around the place in a nice covered seat. And use a Wyvern when flight is needed.

Skeletons lose wing-based flight, so that'll have to either be a zombie, or you're gonna need something else for a flying mount.

And yes, skeletons carrying you around is a perfectly acceptable use of disposable minions.

Flesh to Stone cheese... it's actually Stone to Flesh.

You make a statue of something you'd love to have as an undead pet. Cast Stone to Flesh on it... now it's a body of something you'd love to have as an undead pet. Now you make it your undead pet.

[Daftendirekt]

You make a statue of something you'd love to have as an undead pet. Cast Stone to Flesh on it... now it's a body of something you'd love to have as an undead pet. Now you make it your undead pet.

Oh, now that is a tasty cheese. Next time I play a Dread Necro I have to do this.

[gibbo88]

But then you would have to find a similar creature to get the stats from right?

[marcielle]

Hollow out a Large Burrowing zombie, eg. Bullette. You now have a subterranean vehicle. Anything WITHOUT burrow simpley cannot hurt you. While you summon incorporeal, undead which simply PHASE UP. Make a hatch in the top and you can also rescue teammates by burrowing UNDER them.
Zombie Orca. Pain it yellow. Natural predators will stay the hell away simply because your ride is not edible.

Also, you can dig right through dungeon traped areas so long as they aren't made of adamantine.

[Fouredged Sword]

To do the above, first seek some means to not need to breathe, but yes, very useful.

Also undead mounts can ether hussle or run all day, so have fun with silly over land speeds. Flying zombies can't do ether, but fly speeds are generaly fast and they can go all day and night, traveling 3x the listed distance per day.

[Amphetryon]

To do the above, first seek some means to not need to breathe, but yes, very useful.

Also undead mounts can ether hussle or run all day, so have fun with silly over land speeds. Flying zombies can't do ether, but fly speeds are generaly fast and they can go all day and night, traveling 3x the listed distance per day.
Some means not to breathe, like, for example, being a Necropolitan? :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, exactly. You should be one from level 2 onwards.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, exactly. You should be one from level 2 onwards.

Level 3, actually, due to the way you lose XP in becoming one. Trying to become a Necropolitan at level 2 just turns you into a corpse without fiat or heavy shenanigans.

[Fouredged Sword]

I was meaning become level 2 -> save up exp -> become necro, not trying to become a necro BY level 2.

[Amphetryon]

You lose a level + a large number of XP in becoming Necropolitan. I'm not seeing how you could manage it before late in level 3, at the earliest, without cheese.

[ThiefInTheNight]

When you lose a level from Necropolitan, it is "as if the spell Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) had been cast on it," which itself says "just as if it had lost a level or Hit Die to an energy-draining creature." Finally, the rules for Energy Drain and Negative Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) refer to the rules for Level Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), which states that "the victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level."

Thus, if a level 2 character loses a level, even if they have 2,999 XP, they are reduced to 500 XP, and Necropolitan's 1,000 XP penalty kills him. A level 3 character, on the other hand, drops to 1,500 XP, which is enough to take the 1,000 XP penalty (losing a total of 2,500 XP plus whatever you had towards 4th, and going to level 1 and 500 XP).

[2xMachina]

Do you actually die from EXP loss? Or the ritual failed, thus not reviving you?

[ThiefInTheNight]

Necropolitan states that "if the level loss and the 1,000 XP cost drains a creature to 0 XP or less, it is destroyed, turned to dust, and can never be raised or revived again using any means."

[2xMachina]

Ah, ok. Thanks.

EDIT: Wow, if I read it right... It's even prevents True Ress?

[ThiefInTheNight]

Yes. It just might be the single-most-effective method of definitively ending something.

[Little Brother]

Yes. It just might be the single-most-effective method of definitively ending something.Just gonna chime in here: Flesh to Stone, Stone to Mud, Purify Water. They are gone, but are still technically petrified. Just nonexistent.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Yeah, but that chain is dubious. This one is literally spelled out for you.

EDIT: Dubious isn't quite the right word. I mean, it works, but a lot of DMs will call shenanigans and not allow it. They might do the same with the Rite of Crucimigration, of course, but at least they have to actually houserule, as opposed to be like "well I don't think it works that way." Which... I dunno, seems better to me?

[marcielle]

Unless you suddenly decide to multiclass out, ALL Dread Necros take necropolitan at 3rd level. Seriously, anyone taking more than 2 levels just NEEDS that template.

[sreservoir]

Do you recall a source on those?


shrink collar, AEG.

[opticalshadow]

This is why I still find it odd that a Dread Necromancer is classified as "tier 3". Sure, it can't break the campaign world as easily as a Wizard, but it automatically breaks the campaign when everyone loses interest in the setting before your first turn is done. Indeed, I feel like it takes more optimization and system finesse to not kill the fun of a game group.

Of course, unlike most of The Internet, I don't really mind casters breaking the world nearly as much as I care about them replacing other party members. And I just can't see why I would need a Warblade in my party when (to steal Schneeky's format), There's an Undead For That™.

Dread Necros are my fav class in DnD, and ill tell you why tehy are teir 3.

first off, with the RAW cheese in DnD you actually can have an infinite sized army, but your not any more likly to get that past your dm about as much as getting hundreds of skellies with your regular hd.

our spell list, though powerful, is narrow, and a few protection spells and cautions can sevearly weaken your spell power, also our undead, while can be formidable, are still undead. there are some spells out there both by divne (especially divine) and arcane, that can cause even your best undead to crumble like paper, simply because undead are generally weak.

the other large problem with having undead, is moving them about. even a highly respected champion will have trouble moving large undead anywhere near towns and cities, they are kill on sight almost everywhere, and even though you can make awesome arguments to the fact they are not inherintly evil (which you will need to do) the dm or townsfolk can just as readily say, they are evil and you need to get stepping.

all in all our weakness are,
-narrow spell list, which with minor prep can be well protected against.
-undead are by nature weaker then their hd.
-large armies are not only weakish, but incredibly hard to both move, and hide.
-playablity. most dms fear them, most players have problems on a alignment level, having a pally in your group makes it nigh impossible, and clerics are not easy to convince.

but, this is how i get around this.
wall of text

first off, i never ever ever ever ever reveal my class or alignment (which is generally neutral at start and i shift evil late game, you dont need to, i just like easy road), i take great pains to do this, i take points into disguise, i take lots of gold to make sure my alignment is hidden, and i take imence care to hide my spells or combat abilities so they cannot guess my class.

second i raise one or two big brutes, and i make sure to take 20 to disguise them, if im not allowed i wait till the party sleeps and i keep trying until i get 20, i make sure short of detect undead, or a heal spell, my party will never know its dead. luckily detect undead is almost never cast, which is great, because i am almost alway necropolitian (a very easy undead templete to get, and as a dead necro means free heals, being undead also mean i can work while they sleep, very importnet to me) end game i get true ressurected and become a lich, for reasons of preotection.

now that me and my goons are heavily disguised, i let him do most of the fighting, i buff and spell cast as out of sight as possible, using my heavy xbow (my free prof) to good effect. i slip out of camp at night to start ressurecting past enemies, i try to get a few skellies and find an abandoned lair, i almost always choose the sunless citidel if the dm allows its area in teh game. its an awesome thematic starting location for a lair, its big, orginized, and easily wiped out by the time your going to start raising dead. this is the start of my lair. after cleaning it out you will have alot of weak skellies, that never tire and that can mine. if allowed i will mine for gems, most notably onyx, but whatever works. as they mine i pay great sums for magic or for dwarves to help construct the lari as i go deeper later on ill pay massive sums to make this place brutually impossible to get into. i amass all my undead here, and start becoming evil.

ill ransack small towns, or villages, enemy camps with spells and undead and take the goods and open small trade shops to get even more gold, all to fund my eventual network.

some great undead to concider for zombie travel are dragons, you can make an airbus, and try and get a few very large burrowers, underground busses work well to move hidden armies.

[gibbo88]

Followup question: Is the capstone Lich transformation worth it? Do you still get the level adjustment?

[Amphetryon]

Followup question: Is the capstone Lich transformation worth it? Do you still get the level adjustment?

You don't get the level adjustment by most readings of RAW that I've seen. It's mostly worth it if a) you DIDN'T take Necropolitan at some point or b) you're going Epic - which opens up tons of other issues I'm not especially qualified to respond to.

[elonin]

PaO doesn't mention being able to change the age of the target. So you could PaO a mass of bodies into a dragon. Beyond that is speculation. DN is still cool however. For players how does the cost benefit work with undead creation? Unless you create self spawning undead the costs seem prohibitive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PaO doesn't mention being able to change the age of the target. So you could PaO a mass of bodies into a dragon. Beyond that is speculation. DN is still cool however. For players how does the cost benefit work with undead creation? Unless you create self spawning undead the costs seem prohibitive.

There's several ways to answer that...

1) There's several ways to get lots of cheap, disposable minions. Fell Animate + Fell Drain + Kelgore's Grave Mist is a good way to do it. Spellstitching Animate Dead also works.

2) Animate Dread Warrior is good for heavy hitters who likely won't be going down any time soon.

3) This throws the 'anything you use, I will as well' threat the GM uses to limit cheese back in your GM's face, because if he throws it at you, then you can raise it up as your pet.

4) If your GM throws nasty undead at you, thank him for the free treasure.

[marcielle]

I am getting around the whole undead are evil thing by telling the rest of the party that by commanding them to do good, I am technically helping to redeem their souls. I still can't bring them into town but I plan on mostly having incorporeal or fly/burrow undead so not much trouble there. Only one I can actually bring into town is my slaymate who I will splurge on a hat of disguise for. Free heighten or extend for every spell is worth it.

[elonin]

There's several ways to answer that...

1) There's several ways to get lots of cheap, disposable minions. Fell Animate + Fell Drain + Kelgore's Grave Mist is a good way to do it. Spellstitching Animate Dead also works.

2) Animate Dread Warrior is good for heavy hitters who likely won't be going down any time soon.

3) This throws the 'anything you use, I will as well' threat the GM uses to limit cheese back in your GM's face, because if he throws it at you, then you can raise it up as your pet.

4) If your GM throws nasty undead at you, thank him for the free treasure.

There's a difference between optimizing a character and engaging in an arms race with the dm. Point #3 requires the dm to use monsters that drop bodies as loot. Summons don't.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a difference between optimizing a character and engaging in an arms race with the dm. Point #3 requires the dm to use monsters that drop bodies as loot. Summons don't.

Summons also generally aren't as big a problem as NPC's with character sheets.

I'd rather fight a Balor than a reasonably optimized 20th level Wizard ANY day of the week.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'd rather fight any other monster or NPC than a reasonably optimized 20th level Wizard ANY day of the week.

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

[marcielle]

Lady of Pain?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

Allow me to use an example less broken but more beneficial for Dread Necro

I would much rather face a Balor than face a level 20 Ubercharger build, because the Ubercharger can TPK if he can reach anyone.

Of course, once you take care of that problem, use Animate Dread Warrior and he becomes YOUR (even more powerful) 20 ubercharger build.

[Amphetryon]

Allow me to use an example less broken but more beneficial for Dread Necro

I would much rather face a Balor than face a level 20 Ubercharger build, because the Ubercharger can TPK if he can reach anyone.

Of course, once you take care of that problem, use Animate Dread Warrior and he becomes YOUR (even more powerful) 20 ubercharger build.
Is there any other spell that a DN can access that you'd consider? I ask because Animate Dread Warrior keeps coming up, and as noted, it requires Advanced Learning to even access. To me, that indicates a belief that it has a pretty poor spell list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is there any other spell that a DN can access that you'd consider? I ask because Animate Dread Warrior keeps coming up, and as noted, it requires Advanced Learning to even access. To me, that indicates a belief that it has a pretty poor spell list.

It keeps coming up because it is the single most powerful 'make a minion' spell the Necromancy college has.

Why? Because the critter involved retains all feats and class levels he had in life. So you've basically got an x level character following you around.

However, there's a whole *PILE* of spells they have which are great. I mean, Enervation... done right there. Specially when you've got the ability to pick up a metamagic reduction out of a minion (slaymate).

It's kinda like This Orb of x series of spells keeps coming up whenever anyone talks about blasting'. That's because, for what it does, it's the best.

[Amphetryon]

Which, again, reads as "the single best spell for a Dread Necromancer is one that's not on its spell list." That's not exactly a ringing endorsement from where I sit. Thanks for answering, anyway.

[Little Brother]

Which, again, reads as "the single best spell for a Dread Necromancer is one that's not on its spell list." That's not exactly a ringing endorsement from where I sit. Thanks for answering, anyway.Except it is on their list. Every single Necromancy spell is on their list, with some limitations on when they can pick them up.

[tyckspoon]

Which, again, reads as "the single best spell for a Dread Necromancer is one that's not on its spell list." That's not exactly a ringing endorsement from where I sit. Thanks for answering, anyway.

That's more the nature of being a splat class, really; they have to be reasonably self-contained. If you print a spellcaster in a book, it either needs a Wizard-like capacity to gain new spells, or its spell list will consist only of Core and new spells from its own splatbook. There probably are a few dozen spells that could reasonably have been on the Dread Necros list scattered throughout other books, but if they wanted to put them on the Dread Necro list they'd also have to bloat the cost and page-count of the book by reprinting them in Heroes of Horror (and with spells that create exotic kinds of undead, that's doubled by requiring an example monster+template entry in the monster section.) So instead they give you Advanced Learning, which is basically the designer going "hey, we know there's some awesome stuff we couldn't put in here, use this to build your own." You can argue about how many of them you get- one for each spell level would have been nice- but I don't think it's really fair to complain about how there's a really good spell not on the class list when the class itself already has the tool for grabbing it.

[Amphetryon]

Except it is on their list. Every single Necromancy spell is on their list, with some limitations on when they can pick them up.

It's not listed in my copy of Heroes of Horror as being native to the DN spell list, instead requiring Advanced Learning. That's a distinct difference, unless my copy is in error.

[ThiefInTheNight]

I believe he was referring to the ability to pick them up through Advanced Learning.

[Little Brother]

It's not listed in my copy of Heroes of Horror as being native to the DN spell list, instead requiring Advanced Learning. That's a distinct difference, unless my copy is in error.Advanced learning is part of their spellcasting ability. In fact, I think Advanced Learning is continued by classes that advance spellcasting. So, being learnable through advanced learning means they can know it, and so it is effectively part of their list.

[Amphetryon]

Since I'm obviously unable to get my point across effectively, I'll bow out of this debate.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Which, again, reads as "the single best spell for a Dread Necromancer is one that's not on its spell list." That's not exactly a ringing endorsement from where I sit. Thanks for answering, anyway.

That's why you have this thing called Advanced Learning. It's a class ability that allows you to pick up the obscure spells from obscure splatbooks that are insanely powerful.

Do you have high-level NPC's with lots of class levels being thrown at you? Then Animate Dread Warrior is your best bet for picking up at level 12... incidentally happens to also be the soonest he could pick it up even if it WAS on his list, by the way.

If you don't? Then get something else. I happen to like pairing Aura of Terror with my innate Fear Aura to make Takahashi sit in a corner and cry, but there are other options available.

My point is... it's a Tier 3 class, not a Tier 1 or even a Tier 2. He's not a Schrodinger's Class. But he still gets access to those things which make him even better at what he does best. Like Animate Dread Warrior.

What the Dread Necromancer DOES get from it's bog-standard spell list is spells from both Wiz/Sorc list AND Cleric list. It gets the Summon Undead series of spells, which are affected by his class abilities which boost the power of minions he summons/creates. So there's all the utility of 'summon an elemental to walk in front of the party to trigger traps'. He's got Spectral Hand so he can use his touch spells at range. The entire Inflict series, including Harm. He also gets Dispel/Greater Dispel, of course.

Star spells include Enervation, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Poison, Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Create Greater Undead, and Destruction.

So he's got a lot of 'no save, no SR, just plain suck' of the conjuration set (acid fog, cloudkill, black tentacles), enervation shennanigans (with Slaymates to make it even easier to metamagic reduce), and the ability to force someone to use a True Res to get the bastard back in action. Granted, if he's a re-occuring villian, it'll probably happen. But you make them SPEND those extra resources on a true rez versus a simple Raise dead. And it also block Revivify.

At low levels, he summons up a lot of pets, and makes sure he's hitting his control cap to be effective. He's got some annoying touch attacks, and some surprisingly annoying class abilities (negative energy burst, for example). Or, if you prefer, by level 4, he can be delivering no-save, no-sr negative levels via Kelgore's Grave Mist (through Advanced learning + Fell Drain).

Is his spell list exhaustive? No. He's a tier 3 class, on par with a Bard, for crying out loud. But it *IS* effective.

[MeeposFire]

That's why you have this thing called Advanced Learning. It's a class ability that allows you to pick up the obscure spells from obscure splatbooks that are insanely powerful.

Do you have high-level NPC's with lots of class levels being thrown at you? Then Animate Dread Warrior is your best bet for picking up at level 12... incidentally happens to also be the soonest he could pick it up even if it WAS on his list, by the way.

If you don't? Then get something else. I happen to like pairing Aura of Terror with my innate Fear Aura to make Takahashi sit in a corner and cry, but there are other options available.

My point is... it's a Tier 3 class, not a Tier 1 or even a Tier 2. He's not a Schrodinger's Class. But he still gets access to those things which make him even better at what he does best. Like Animate Dread Warrior.

What the Dread Necromancer DOES get from it's bog-standard spell list is spells from both Wiz/Sorc list AND Cleric list. It gets the Summon Undead series of spells, which are affected by his class abilities which boost the power of minions he summons/creates. So there's all the utility of 'summon an elemental to walk in front of the party to trigger traps'. He's got Spectral Hand so he can use his touch spells at range. The entire Inflict series, including Harm. He also gets Dispel/Greater Dispel, of course.

Star spells include Enervation, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Poison, Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Create Greater Undead, and Destruction.

So he's got a lot of 'no save, no SR, just plain suck' of the conjuration set (acid fog, cloudkill, black tentacles), enervation shennanigans (with Slaymates to make it even easier to metamagic reduce), and the ability to force someone to use a True Res to get the bastard back in action. Granted, if he's a re-occuring villian, it'll probably happen. But you make them SPEND those extra resources on a true rez versus a simple Raise dead. And it also block Revivify.

At low levels, he summons up a lot of pets, and makes sure he's hitting his control cap to be effective. He's got some annoying touch attacks, and some surprisingly annoying class abilities (negative energy burst, for example). Or, if you prefer, by level 4, he can be delivering no-save, no-sr negative levels via Kelgore's Grave Mist (through Advanced learning + Fell Drain).

Is his spell list exhaustive? No. He's a tier 3 class, on par with a Bard, for crying out loud. But it *IS* effective.

I agree except for the part where the DN makes the DM pay more for resurection. Resurections are going to happen if the DM wants them to happen unless you are talking about in combat true res which is a rare thing indeed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree except for the part where the DN makes the DM pay more for resurection. Resurections are going to happen if the DM wants them to happen unless you are talking about in combat true res which is a rare thing indeed.

It's more of a RP thing... Destruction means the target needs a True Rez for the target to come back. If the target didn't have access to that, then why is he coming back?

This can lead into further plot exposition in which you discover that he's being fronted by a much larger and more dangerous organization... and plot continues from there.

However, turning your opponent into a pile of dust? Never gets old. It's like Disintegrate, without the chance of missing your opponent, doing twice the damage if he makes the save, and insta-dust without bothering to roll damage if he doesn't. Only problem is that it has the [Death] descriptor, but that just means you need to Greater Dispel Magic any defenses your target might have first, which is never a bad idea, particularly not if you have DMM Quicken.

[MeeposFire]

It's more of a RP thing... Destruction means the target needs a True Rez for the target to come back. If the target didn't have access to that, then why is he coming back?

This can lead into further plot exposition in which you discover that he's being fronted by a much larger and more dangerous organization... and plot continues from there.

However, turning your opponent into a pile of dust? Never gets old. It's like Disintegrate, without the chance of missing your opponent, doing twice the damage if he makes the save, and insta-dust without bothering to roll damage if he doesn't. Only problem is that it has the [Death] descriptor, but that just means you need to Greater Dispel Magic any defenses your target might have first, which is never a bad idea, particularly not if you have DMM Quicken.

Oh I agree it is fun. Destruction is just so nasty sounding...