Wild Shape Weapon Natural Attacks

[Tibbaerrohwen]

There are feats/abilities for druids that permit you to Wild Shape into Undead and other creatures. Not all of these creatures use natural attacks (ie: claws, bite, tail, etc.). Some utilize man-made weapons. Zombies & Skeletons can use, and usually use, man-made weapons. There are other creatures who only have man-made weapons.

1) Do Wild Shape Druids gain proficiency with these weapons?
2) Do Wild Shaped Druids grow these weapons as they would grow natural weapons?

Thanks.

[Greenish]

1) No.
2) No.

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[Tibbaerrohwen]

1) No.
2) No.

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For creatures who have abilities that specifically designate these weapons ("when X damages a creature with weapon Y...") could you argue that this ability only mentions these weapons because they are the only weapons the creature possesses, so it would apply to other weapons wielded while in that form?

[Greenish]

Which monster do you have in mind?

[Keld Denar]

I can't think of any undead that don't have natural weapon attacks as alternative to manufactured weapons. Sure, skeletons have swords, but they also have claw attacks. Zombies have slams. In fact, most undead either have claws and bites, slams, or incorporial touches.

If you wanted to wildshape into an undead and wield a weapon, you'd have to have that weapon readily available.

[Urpriest]

You're going for creatures like the Orthon, that have manufactured weapons that every single one has and only they can wield?

Even so, I wouldn't think it's part of their form. If they can be disarmed then it's definitely not.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

You're going for creatures like the Orthon, that have manufactured weapons that every single one has and only they can wield?

Even so, I wouldn't think it's part of their form. If they can be disarmed then it's definitely not.

Isn't there a clause in Polymorph that says that you gain analogous equipment for the form you take?

[Optimator]

Nope, although a case could be made for the Balor's sword I suppose.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Nope, although a case could be made for the Balor's sword I suppose.

If a case could be made for a Balor's sword, then why not for other weapons?

And, I know it doesn't say it in the PHB for polymorph, but I thought word had come out later that it was the case. I can distinctly recall seeing it listed under polymorph in the crystal keep stuff.

[MeeposFire]

If a case could be made for a Balor's sword, then why not for other weapons?

And, I know it doesn't say it in the PHB for polymorph, but I thought word had come out later that it was the case. I can distinctly recall seeing it listed under polymorph in the crystal keep stuff.

Unlike most weapons the baylors sword is part of the monster's special qualities or special attacks (I forget which). Weapons are usually just equipment.

[MeeposFire]

whoopsy daisy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If a creature has a special ability to create a weapon, and taking the form of that creature would grant you that type of ability, then you too could gain and use that ability to create that weapon. However, you would not gain the manufactured equipment of anything whose form you take.

Also note that under current rules (Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) Wild Shape is based on Alternate Form rather than Polymorph.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

If a creature has a special ability to create a weapon, and taking the form of that creature would grant you that type of ability, then you too could gain and use that ability to create that weapon. However, you would not gain the manufactured equipment of anything whose form you take.

Also note that under current rules (Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) Wild Shape is based on Alternate Form rather than Polymorph.

I had heard of this change in Polymorph, but I wasn't sure about it. Thanks for verifying its legitimacy (I hadn't heard the word "errata" with it before) and linking me too it. That's too bad.

But no-where does it say that a Balor can create it's sword, it just says that all Balors have a +1 vorpal sword.


Unlike most weapons the baylors sword is part of the monster's special qualities or special attacks (I forget which). Weapons are usually just equipment.

But if a creatures special attacks all rely on it's weapon, can you make the argument that the weapon should come with the new form?

Thanks.

EDIT: A Balor's sword is under special attacks.

[Optimator]

It's also listed as an EX ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are two types of weapons, there are manufactured weapons, and then there are natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons). Wild Shape grants you the form's natural weapons, but none of its manufactured weapons. That means anything that's not included in the list at the above link is not a natural weapon, and is not granted via Wild Shape.

Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) is what the current wording of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) uses. Note that it specifies only that you gain the natural weapons of your new form, you gain only what it specifically says you gain, thus manufactured weapons are not included. Also note that you gain only the extraordinary special attacks of your new form, thus the Balor's Vorpal Sword (Su) would not be included, though its Entangle (Ex) ability would, but you would need to obtain your own +1 Flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) in order to use that ability. The ability to entangle opponents with that specific kind of whip is gained, but the whip itself is not.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

There are two types of weapons, there are manufactured weapons, and then there are natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons). Wild Shape grants you the form's natural weapons, but none of its manufactured weapons. That means anything that's not included in the list at the above link is not a natural weapon, and is not granted via Wild Shape.

Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) is what the current wording of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) uses. Note that it specifies only that you gain the natural weapons of your new form, you gain only what it specifically says you gain, thus manufactured weapons are not included. Also note that you gain only the extraordinary special attacks of your new form, thus the Balor's Vorpal Sword (Su) would not be included, though its Entangle (Ex) ability would, but you would need to obtain your own +1 Flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) in order to use that ability. The ability to entangle opponents with that specific kind of whip is gained, but the whip itself is not.

Alternate Form does permit you to keep equipment un-melded so long as your new form could use it, correct?
If not, then keeping a +1 Flaming Whip on hand could be difficult.
Also, would it have to remain a +1 Flaming Whip or could you enhance it further? Could you make it a +1 Flaming Keen Thundering Whip?