Pathfinder Summoning Rules

[mooseofshadows]

I'm co-DMing a pathfinder game right now, and I have a new player who's playing a summoner and has a few questions that I can't quite answer.

First and foremost is this: If he uses the spell "summon eidolon", does he still run the requirement of not being able to use his eidolon and a summon monster class feature simultaneously? He argued that he should have both, and I wanted to make sure I had some support on the ruling before I just said "of course not!"

Secondly, how many creatures can he control at once while summoned? Assuming his has eidolon or his summon monster class feature out, can he just cast a new summon spell from his spell list each round? These only last for a few rounds, of course, but it still seems pretty significant to have so many.

Thanks in advance, playgrounders.

[stack]

Second question first: I am not aware of any cap to summons from the spell, I believe it is only limited by duration.

For the first question, the summon monster ability specifies that it cannot be used when the eidolon is summoned. The summon eidolon spell summons the eidolon, so I presume that this counts, negating the ability to use the SLA.

[mooseofshadows]

How about use of the augment summoning spell to apply to the summoned eidolon?

[stack]

My understanding is that it applies to the summon eidolon spell (it's still a summoning spell), but not to the normal ritual.

Whether it affects the summon monster SLA is another question. I would allow it, but that's DM dependent. The master summoner archetype gets it free, making me think it should count (RAI), but that is far from definite.

[qcbtnsrm]

To support stack's interpretation, here is the wording from the ability (from the SRD):

"Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."
Seems pretty cut and dried to me. No ability while the eidolon is hanging around

Augment Summoning specifically works on "spells." And the Summon Monster ability is referred to specifically as both a "spell" and a spell-like ability. So it isn't 100% clear. But I would also allow it.

[Blisstake]

First and foremost is this: If he uses the spell "summon eidolon", does he still run the requirement of not being able to use his eidolon and a summon monster class feature simultaneously? He argued that he should have both, and I wanted to make sure I had some support on the ruling before I just said "of course not!"

What was his argument? One can't just go around saying you can be doing something the rules clearly prohibit without any evidence to back it up :smallconfused:

[Infernalbargain]

You can get a minor work around by using the SLA and then getting out your eidolon.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Before you judge the player, at least one of the Summoner guides out there does say you can have both out using Summon Eidolon. That said, the wording is a bit tricksy and depends on interpretation IMO...
Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.There is no similar text in the Eidolon entry. Basically if you see this as saying you can't have the summon ability in use while the Eidolon is summoned, he can't have both out. But if you take the very literal approach and say that he can't actively use the ability to summon monsters while the eidolon is out, he can use the spell after he uses the summon monster ability without impediment.

[Saph]

I covered this in my Summoner guide, if I remember right - it's in the "Tips and Tricks" and the "FAQ" sections. Link's in my sig.

[mooseofshadows]

Perfect! All is settled. Thanks to everyone (especially to Saph for that guide!)

[stack]

I agree with the above, you can use the SLA and then summon. With great thanks to Saph, from whose guidebook I learned that trick (among many useful things).

Saph, are you planning on adding the archetypes to your guide? (I'm sure you get asked that often). Most are straight forward, except the synthesist, which is a glorious mess, and I'm eager to find out if anyone has a worthwhile broodmaster build.

[Saph]

Glad you liked it! I might get around to doing the archetypes someday, but I'm too busy at the moment. If anyone wants to add a guide on the archetypes or write their own, though, go for it and I'll link to/include it in mine!

[Ashram]

You can actually have an eidolon and S.M.s out, if you're of the Master Summoner archetype. :P

[stack]

Sadly my knowledge is mostly theoretical. Might try to at least start the discussion though.