DoctorGlock
2011-09-14, 10:57 AM
Ok, I am currently DMing a fairly high optimization epic level game and we have come to the traditional dragon fight. The players need to obtain from Nidhogg the means of navigating the branches of Yggdrasil to travel the infinite worlds. I figure, what better dragon to use than the corpse tearer, our CR 28 primordial dragon monster. The problem... it does not seem very powerful for its rather high CR.
The Party:
Factotum 9/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 3, probably the weakest party member, some buffs but mostly goes skillmonkey and captain exposition, mainly a teleportation based defense
Sorcerer 6/swiftblade 10/abjurant champion 5/spelldancer 1, our ubercharging, spell spamming, action economy brutalizing battlefield control kobold, no caster level loss because of kobold cheese, mindrapes everything he can to learn its spells (not RAW legal, but sort of cool so i allow it, mindblank and saves have thusfar prevented him from becoming a repository of infinite spells), buff stacking to be immune to everything, still working out his epic spells
barbarian 1/crusader 4/fighter 2/divine crusader 1/prestige paladin 4/Ruby Knight 10, picked an elemental domain to get a form of turning to qualify, battle blessing and sword of the arcane order help make up for his general lack of casting power. His ability to channel solars (BoED spell) makes up the rest. group tank.
Artificer 20, uses wand surge and staff of wish and miracle, little else to say, plays god in all possible ways
...and in the opposite corner, we have the Linnorm, with paltry 17th level cleric casting and a paralysis breath weapon that you just know the party is immune to. So, help me pimp this dragon and turn it into a true godslaying monster worth its 28CR
Initial thoughts: action economy is against him, so some allies help. It has a natural affinity towards undead monstrosities so i want to have it reanimate its shed skin into deadly dragon horrors, probably 2 of them. what undead templates will give them an intelligence score for feats and let them keep all their special abilities?
Save or lose/no save just die: well, it's a full caster party, and the dragon is not, so to help remedy this, i was thinking permanent emanation antimagic field and chosen of mystra so he can keep the pain up while being mostly immune. since it has cleric casting i think it qualifies and it can pick up extra domains via epic feats to drop disjunctions on the buffed party, making them mortal again
which leads to improved rapid strike fun. is there a better way to make this guy take advantage of its energy drain ability?
cleric buffs: the linnorm has about 400HP, meaning the ubercharger will chunky salsa him in one hit, should i add some non-associated class levels (spelldancer or cleric+DMM) to be able to free persist delay death or is there a better way to avoid turning into a greasy stain?
the lair itself: dimension lock on most of the lair and anticipate teleportation on the dragon, no phasing through walls in this labyrinth. once it disjoins the party buffs its free to start using its paralysis breath
so, thats the basics, what else should i do to make this seem like a fight against a mythic dragon rather than a dragon shaped spellcaster? how can i make it a legitimate threat?
Runestar
2011-09-16, 11:17 PM
Well, for one thing, its cr is clearly too high. For instance, the dread linnorm is listed as cr25, however, the designers at paizo revised this down to 22, and that was with the elite array (+1cr) and giving it a list of permanent duration buffs (inherent stat bonuses from wish, permanent enhancement stat bonuses from extract gift, and letting it buff extensively prior to combat).
Alternatively, if you are willing to switch gears to dread linnorn, dungeon 149 has one already fully statted up for you. I find that arcane spellcasting is just so much more readily abuseable. :smallamused:
And face it, the linnorms are more of dragon-shaped spellcasters than dragons themselves. Their physical stats suck, so you must be prepared to have them use their spells to soften up the PCs first before deigning to enter combat.
What I am trying to get at is that its true cr (in 3.5 context) is likely much lower (possibly even 20 or less!), which means you shouldn't feel too guilty that it doesn't exactly steamroll the party. :smallfrown:
Xtomjames
2011-09-17, 06:55 AM
if you're open to external sources (3rd party) there are some fun templates you can use. For example the APOCALYPTIC template.
Appearance Changes
Apocalyptic creatures are enormous, power-filled versions
of the base creature. Their very countenances strikes fear
into the hearts of even the bravest warriors, and their aspect
crackles with divine power.
Creating an Apocalyptic
“Apocalyptic” is a template that can be added to any creature
(referred to hereafter as the “base creature”), but works best
on mid- to high-HD creatures. After assuming the template,
the base creature’s type and subtypes do not change (except
a Humanoid becomes a Giant at Large size). An apocalyptic
creature uses the base creature’s statistics and inherent racial
special abilities except as noted below.
Hit Dice: Die type changes to d12. The creature
has the minimum HD for its new size multiplied by 10 and
receives maximum hit points per die.
Size: An apocalyptic is a size category larger than
the base creature, or larger (maximum Colossal).
Speed: Speed increases by 30 ft. in all modes.
AC: Natural armor improves by +10. Apocalyptics
have a deflection bonus to AC equal to 5% of their HD, and a
divine bonus equal to 10% of their HD.
Attacks: Base creature gains two slam attacks if it
does not already posses better natural attacks.
Damage: Damage for the slam attacks is according
to the creature’s size and type, but calculated as if the creature
were one size category larger. Colossal apocalyptic creatures
have a 4d8 slam.
Special Attacks: Increase damage for special attacks
as shown in How to Use This Book (Special Attacks and Qualities)
when the damage from certain attacks seems too low. An
apocalyptic creature has all the special attacks of the base
creature, plus the following:
Word of the Apocalypse (Su): Once per day, an
apocalyptic creature can utter a word, unleashing tremendous
destructive power. The word slays all selected living creatures
(maximum 1 creature per HD) within a 400 ft. + 400 ft. per
HD radius, centered on the apocalyptic creature. A successful
Will save (DC 10 + one-half of the apocalyptic’s HD + its
Charisma modifier) resists the death effect, but targets within
range still suffer (the apocalyptic’s HD x 10%) in d8s as hit points
of sonic damage (no maximum). Those normally immune to death
effects do not have to save against dying, but are subject to the
sonic damage.
Special Qualities: An apocalyptic creature has all the
special qualities of the base creature, plus the following:
Damage Reduction (Ex): An apocalyptic creature has damage
reduction equal to one-third of its HD, which cannot be overcome.
Spell Resistance (Ex): Apocalyptic creatures have SR equal to
10 + one-third of their (newly increased) Hit Dice.
Immunities: Apocalyptic creatures are immune to mindaffecting
spells, stunning, paralysis, disease, death by massive
damage, ability drain, acid, cold, electricity, and fire damage.
Divine Rejuvenation (Su): Three times per day, an apocalyptic
creature can restore all lost hit points as a standard action that does
not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Saves: Apocalyptic creatures receive a divine bonus to all
saving throws equal to 5% of their newly increased HD.
Abilities: Apocalyptic creatures receive a divine bonus to
all saving throws equal to 10% of their newly increased HD.
Feats: An apocalyptic creature may select any feat,
even those normally restricted to a class. It must still meet all
qualifications for the feat, besides class affiliation.
CR: Base creature’s CR +15 + 10% of the apocalyptic
creature’s newly adjusted Hit Dice.
Treasure: Triple the base creature’s (minimum Standard).
Advancement: None
or DREADNAUGHT
Dreadnaughts are truly fearsome foes dedicated to war and
slaughter, able to deal and withstand enormous amounts
of damage in combat. Elite warriors of the world fear
fighting dreadnaughts and some secretly desire to undergo the
painful and arduous ritual necessary to become one. In fact, only
those deemed worthy can even survive this rite.
Appearance Changes
Dreadnaughts are much larger, hardier, and more muscular than
their normal counterparts. They are generally covered with bulging,
sinewy muscles and have a hardened look to their skin or
natural armor. In short, their aspect is transformed into
that of raw power.
Creating a Dreadnaught
“Dreadnaught” is a template that can
be added to any aberration, beast,
giant, humanoid, magical beast,
monstrous humanoid, outsider, or
plant (referred to hereafter as the
“base creature”). The creature
should be among the toughest
of its kind in order to
survive the transformation
into a dreadnaught. After
assuming the template, the
base creature’s type and
subtype do not change.
Unless otherwise noted,
in this template HD
stands for Hit Dice
plus any character levels
the creature possesses. A
dreadnaught uses the base creature’s
statistics and inherent racial special
abilities except as noted below.
Hit Dice: Dreadnaughts have
maximum hit points per HD,
including those from character
levels.
AC: Natural armor
improves by +4.
Special Attacks: The
following special attacks are added
to the base creature’s natural or armed attacks:
Felling Strike (Ex): Once per day plus an additional time per
10 HD, when a dreadnaught scores a successful critical hit, it can
elect to make a felling strike by rolling again. If the result of this
third roll would hit the target, the target takes the full damage from
the critical hit as normal, but must also make a saving throw (DC 10
+ damage dealt) or die.
Punishing Strike (Ex): Once per day plus an additional time
per 10 HD, a dreadnaught may make a mighty attack against any
one opponent, adding its Charisma bonus (if any) to the attack
roll and its HD and character level total to the damage. Use of this
ability must be declared prior to making the attack. If the attack
misses, that punishing strike attempt is used for the day. This ability
cannot be used more often than once every 1d4+1 rounds.
Rapid Strike (Su): Once per day plus an additional
time per 5 HD, a dreadnaught may grant itself the effects
of a haste spell (self only) as if cast by a sorcerer with a level
equal to the dreadnaught’s HD.
Special Qualities: A dreadnaught has all the special
qualities of the base creature, plus the special abilities listed
below:
Damage Reduction (Ex): A dreadnaught has damage
reduction equal to its HD (maximum 15) against +3
weapons.
Energy Resistance (Ex):
Dreadnaughts have energy
resistance 10 versus one
type of energy (acid, cold,
electricity, fire, or sonic) for
every 4 HD it has (minimum 1
type). This resistance can be
applied to the same energy
type more than once,
adding +10 to the overall
amount of resistance
each time. For example,
an 8 HD dreadnaught
could have both fire
resistance 10 and cold
resistance 10, or just
fire resistance 20.
Immunities
(Ex): Dreadnaughts
are immune to disease,
poison, paralysis, stunning,
and all mind-influencing
spells and effects.
Spell Resistance (Ex):
A dreadnaught has SR equal to
5 + its HD.
Abilities: Modify the
base creature as follows:
Strength +4, Dexterity
+4, Constitution +6,
Charisma +2.
Feats: A
dreadnaught gains
Endurance as a bonus feat.
Organization: Dreadnaughts are often solitary, or
they are unique individuals among normal members of the
base creature type. Sometimes dreadnaughts can be found in
gangs (2-5).
CR: Base creature’s CR +2 + 20% (maximum +5).
ECL: +5.
You could also make it a Dracolich
another interesting template is the NECROVORE
Among the vilest of all monsters, and a strange mix of
positive and negative energies, necrovores are hunters
and eaters of undead. Necrovores were originally
imbued with positive energy, possibly even by some benevolent
force, to track down and destroy the undead of the world. While
so doing, they slowly changed into the hideous and foul creatures
they are now, utterly corrupted by their ability to absorb negative
energy and ever driven to feed on creatures connected to it. Now,
these horrid creatures search necropolises and burial sites for
any sign of the harrowed souls who live without dying. Not even
incorporeal undead are safe from the voracious appetite of these
horrors, and any mortals that dare oppose a necrovore in its hunt
are quickly dispatched.
Appearance Changes
Necrovores possess a terrible aspect, usually darker than their
normal kith, with oversized natural weapons. Some are beautiful
in a macabre way, like a sleek predator, while others are unkempt,
with mottled patches of hair, numerous scars, scraggly teeth,
long and dirt-encrusted claws or fingernails. A necrovore’s eyes
burn with the paradoxical fires of life, death, higher purpose, and
madness.
Creating a Necrovore
“Necrovore” is a template that can be added to any animal, beast,
giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant,
or vermin (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”). After
assuming the template, the base creature’s type and subtype do
not change, unless it is an animal, beast, or humanoid. Animals
and beasts with the template become magical beasts, while
humanoids become monstrous humanoids (retaining their
humanoid subtype). Unless otherwise noted, in this template
HD stands for Hit Dice plus any character levels the creature
possesses. A necrovore uses the base creature’s statistics and
inherent racial special abilities except as noted below.
AC: Due to its infusion of positive energy, a necrovore
has a +1 circumstance bonus to AC versus undead.
Attacks: The necrovore gains a +1 racial bonus to
attack rolls versus undead opponents. Creatures without natural
attacks gain a single claw attack and a bite attack, which can be
used together—usually with the bite as a secondary attack.
Damage: Bite and claw damage is determined by
the base creature’s original type and size. One of a necrovore’s
natural attacks does damage as if the creature were one size
category larger than it actually is.
Special Attacks: A necrovore has all the special
qualities of the base creature, plus the following:
Festering Wounds (Su): The foul energies infusing the
necrovore’s natural weapons deal extra negative energy damage
(in the form of an additional die, or additional dice) to living
targets equal to half of the weapon’s normal damage, with no
added Strength bonus. Halving the damage for this purpose
may result in a lower die type. Minimum damage is 1 point. For
example, a necrovore ankheg deals 2d8+7 damage plus 1d8
negative energy damage with its mandibles (2d8 halves to 1d8). A
Small humanoid with only its fists deals 1d2 subdual damage and
1 point of negative energy damage with a successful attack.
Second, and worse, the living victim of a necrovore’s
attack must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + onehalf
of the necrovore’s HD + its Constitution modifier) or suffer
a terrible disease known as necrotic rot (see New Disease below).]
Ghost Strike (Su): As a move-equivalent action, a necrovore
can charge a single melee attack with energy that allows the strike to
harm incorporeal or ethereal beings.
Negative Energy Burst (Su): At will, when a necrovore has extra
temporary hit points due to the foul consumption ability (see below),
it may give up some or all of those hit points in a burst of negative
energy. If they fail a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + one-half of
the necrovore’s HD + its Constitution modifier), all living opponents
within a 15-ft radius take damage equal to half the amount of hit
points the necrovore gives up. Undead in the area are, ironically, healed
for the same amount.
Negative Energy Siphon (Su): The positive energies infusing the
necrovore’s natural weapons deal extra positive energy damage (in the
form of an additional die, or additional dice) to undead equal to half of
the weapon’s normal damage, with no added Strength bonus. Halving
the damage for this purpose may result in a lower die type. Minimum
damage is 1 point.
Once per day per Hit Die, a necrovore can use a ranged touch
attack to siphon negative energy, inflicting 1d6 (plus 1d6 per 3 HD the
necrovore possesses) points of damage to undead. The range of this
attack is 25 ft. plus 5 ft. per 2 HD the necrovore possesses.
Special Qualities: A necrovore has all the special qualities of
the base creature, plus the following:
Detect Undead (Su): A necrovore can detect undead, as the spell,
continuously, cast as a sorcerer of a level equal to the necrovore’s HD.
This ability cannot be dispelled, but it can be suppressed. However, a
necrovore can re-establish this ability as a free action on its next round.
Damage Reduction (Ex): All necrovores have DR 2 + onequarter
of their HD (round down, minimum +0) against anything
besides magic weapons (+1 or better). This also allows the necrovore to
circumvent the DR of more powerful undead.
Ethersight (Su): At will, as a full-round action, a necrovore can
see creatures, locations, and features of the Ethereal Plane to a range
of 60 ft., lasting a number of rounds equal to the necrovore’s Wisdom
score. This ability can be dispelled or suppressed as if it were a spell
cast by a spellcaster of a level equal to the necrovore’s HD, but the
necrovore can resume use as a full-round action.
Fast Healing (Su): Necrovores heal quickly due to their
association with positive energy. They heal at a rate of 1 point per
round plus 1 point per 3 HD.
Foul Consumption (Su): By killing an undead creature (and
consuming its corporeal remains), a necrovore absorbs part of the
negative energy released in the slaying. The necrovore gains 1d4+1
temporary hit points per 2 HD of undead slain and consumed—
actually healing as a result of this gain, if it needs to. Temporary hit
points in excess of the necrovore’s normal maximum fade at a rate of
4 per hour. The creature may only absorb the energy of a number of
undead HD equal to four times its own HD in one day.
Immunities: Necrovores are immune to poison, paralysis, and
disease. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, negative
levels, or necromantic death effects.
Climate/Terrain: Add underground to the climate/terrain
of the base creature.
CR: Base creature’s CR +1 + 20% (maximum +4).
ECL: +2.
There is also the DREAD VAMPIRE
Appearance Changes
Dread vampires have a chilling and otherworldly aspect to their
appearance. They are at once compelling and revolting, both
charismatic and odious. Although these monsters strongly
resemble the forms they had in life, there are a few discernible
signs that belie the true nature of these evil undead, such as a
sickly pallor to the skin, hauntingly evil eyes, claw-like fingernails,
or some other visible manifestation of the creatures’ nature.
Creating a Dread Vampire
“Dread Vampire” is a template that can be added to any
humanoid or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter as
the “base creature”). After assuming the template, the base
creature’s type changes to “Undead”. Unless otherwise noted, in
this template HD stands for Hit Dice plus any character levels
the creature possesses. Dread vampires use the base creature’s
statistics and inherent racial special abilities except as noted below.
Hit Dice: Die type changes to d12.
AC: Natural armor improves by +4.
Attacks: A dread vampire retains all the attacks of the
base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have
one.
Damage: Dread vampires do damage with their slams
according to the Undead type.
Special Attacks: A dread vampire has all the special
attacks of the base creature, except those requiring an active
metabolism (meaning Constitution). Supernatural and spell-like
attacks are almost always maintained, using Charisma in place of
Constitution to calculate save DCs. Dread vampires also have the
following:
Aura of Fear (Su): A dread vampire generates a perpetual
aura of fear (60-ft. radius, centered on the dread vampire, a
mind-affecting, fear effect). All creatures entering this area must
make a Will save or cower for 1d6 rounds. If a creature cowed
by this ability is attacked, it stops cowering and becomes shaken
for 2d6 rounds. Those who succeed the save are still shaken for
1d6 rounds. Creatures exiting the 60-ft. radius area remain shaken
for 1d3 rounds. An opponent that is affected by the fear aura
and recovers, or one having successfully saved against it, gains a
cumulative +1 per exposure to save against further aura attacks
from the same dread vampire. This bonus lasts 24 hours.
Absorb Fear (Ex): As a full-round action, the dread
vampire may drain 1 temporary point of Wisdom per round from
all creatures made to cower by its aura of fear ability. Creatures
affected by the drain are entitled to another Will save each round
(+1 to the roll per previous attempt) to overcome the aura of
fear effect. Those that do are shaken for 1d6 rounds thereafter.
Whatever the outcome, those that suffer any Wisdom drain must
make another Will save when the final Wisdom point is to be
regained or that one point is a permanent lost.
The dread vampire may also drain individual creatures that are suffering
from any form of fear. To do so, the dread vampire must make a
successful grapple check against the creature. If it gets a hold it may lock
eyes with the opponent and drain 1d4 points of permanent Wisdom per
round it maintains the hold.
Through the absorb fear ability, the dread vampire gains 5 hit
points per ability point drained. Any hit points over the dread vampire’s
maximum are treated as temporary hit points that fade in 1d4+1
minutes. Alternatively, the dread vampire may add 1 point to its Strength
for every 2 ability points drained. Any points added to abilities in this
fashion are also temporary and fade after 1d4+1 minutes.
Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain
by a dread vampire’s energy drain attack rises as a dread vampire spawn
1d4 days after burial. A creature driven to 0 Wisdom and then killed in
any manner returns as dread vampire spawn or, if 5 HD or higher, a
new dread vampire. In any case, the new creature is under the control
of the dread vampire that created it, and remains so until the master
vampire’s death.
Energy Drain (Su): The slam of a dread vampire delivers 2
negative levels.
Special Qualities: A dread vampire has all the special qualities of the
base creature, besides ones like those prohibited in Special Attacks above,
plus the following:
Damage Reduction (Ex): A dread vampire’s undead body is
tough, giving the creature damage reduction 10/holy or +2.
Darkvision (Ex): Dread vampires can see in non-magical
darkness up to a range of 60 ft., or the base creature’s range, whichever
is better.
Fast Healing (Ex): A dread vampire heals 5 points of damage
each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. Damage from sunlight
or fire can only be healed at a rate of 1 point per round. If reduced to
0 hit points or lower, a dread vampire automatically assumes shadow form
and attempts to escape. It must reach its lair within 3 hours or be utterly
destroyed. (It can travel up to 13 miles in 3 hours.) Once at rest, it rises
to 1 hit point after 1 hour, then resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit
points per round.
Resistance (Ex): A dread vampire has electricity and cold
resistance 20.
Shadow Form (Su): As a standard action, a dread vampire can
take the form of a fearsome-looking shadow (not the undead creature,
just a shadow). In this form, the dread vampire can move at its normal
speed and is totally insubstantial—unable to interact with the physical
world. It gets a +10 circumstance bonus to Hide in shadowy or dark
areas. The shadow form can travel through any opening that light can
breach and on any surface that can hold a shadow. The shadow form
cannot enter any area lit by bright, pure light (like that of a daylight spell).
Turn Resistance (Ex): A dread vampire has +4 turn resistance.
Undead (Ex): Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison,
sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual
damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.
Abilities: Increase from base creature as follows: Strength +4,
Dexterity +4, Intelligence +2, Wisdom +4, Charisma +6. As undead
creatures, dread vampires have no Constitution score.
Skills: Dread vampires receive a +8 racial bonus to Bluff,
Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Feats: Dread vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes,
Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base
creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
CR: Base creature’s CR +3.
DoctorGlock
2011-09-17, 04:05 PM
Well, for one thing, its cr is clearly too high. For instance, the dread linnorm is listed as cr25, however, the designers at paizo revised this down to 22, and that was with the elite array (+1cr) and giving it a list of permanent duration buffs (inherent stat bonuses from wish, permanent enhancement stat bonuses from extract gift, and letting it buff extensively prior to combat).
Alternatively, if you are willing to switch gears to dread linnorn, dungeon 149 has one already fully statted up for you. I find that arcane spellcasting is just so much more readily abuseable. :smallamused:
And face it, the linnorms are more of dragon-shaped spellcasters than dragons themselves. Their physical stats suck, so you must be prepared to have them use their spells to soften up the PCs first before deigning to enter combat.
What I am trying to get at is that its true cr (in 3.5 context) is likely much lower (possibly even 20 or less!), which means you shouldn't feel too guilty that it doesn't exactly steamroll the party. :smallfrown:
where can i find Paizo's remake/re-CR of this thing? if it really dropped 6 CR i can legally add alot more to it (I cannot just pull something from my rear, my players check afterwards and i have a reputation for making everything RAW and fair with few exceptions). I already added a couple levels of cleric which i think stack with it's casting, if no PrCs should. Since they are non associated they should give more band for the buck. I also added the draconic advancement rules from ELH and pumped it to colossal. i used wish bonuses and gave it a belt of magnificence. With persisted cleric buffs (free due to undead battery feat abuse) it can enter melee i think. Not team solar levels of buff, but enough to contribute. Are there any good official (non 3rd party) intelligent undead templates that i can use for shedded skin minions?
@ Xtom: sorry, should have specified no 3rd party. now i feel bad after all the typing you did. I don't want to go full intelligence of a dracolich for the minions unless i have to. spawn of kyuss might work since they keep wisdom scores, any thoughts?
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