Maneuver Help Needed

[Biggoran]

Ay everyone, I need some help on finding a guide to maneuvers and how to use them....

[Fenryr]

Think of them as spells.

(Also feel free to correct me, peeps).

Whenever you use one, you can't use it again unless you recover it. Swordsages uses a Full Round Action to recover one single maneuver, Warblade uses a Swift Action and an attack to recover all of them (they may use a Standard Action doing nothing instead). Crusader is randomized: when you can't get more maneuvers, you refresh them and start with two of them and each turn an additional one is granted.

To use them, read the maneuver. Some are Standard action, Swift Action or Full Round.

Nice reading. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies)

[Keld Denar]

Also, read the maneuvers. These maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) are helpful!

[MightyPirate]

Are you needing help understanding how they work or how to use them?

For the former we probably need to know what you're stuck on: Selection, Readying, Initiation, Refreshing. There's a lot to talk about.

Assuming you just want some basic advice on character optimization I'd try these:

Spirit of Steel: The Crusader's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655)

Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181705)

Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968)

All works in progress sadly but helpful nonetheless.

[subject42]

Swordsages uses a Full Round Action to recover one single maneuver, Warblade uses a Swift Action and an attack to recover all of them (they may use a Standard Action doing nothing instead).

I believe that both of these classes can also recover all of their maneuvers as a full round action, provided they take the adaptive style feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

A warblade recovers one maneuver with a swift action, and he may not use a maneuver that round, and he must make a full attack, standard attack, or waste his standard action with a weapon flurish (doing nothing).

[Keld Denar]

No. A Warblade recovers ALL maneuvers with a swift action.

[JonRG]

This could be a really dense question, but why is the swordsage's maneuver recovery so much slower than the other two ToB classes?

Never quite understood that... :smallconfused:

[MightyPirate]

Yes, Adaptive style is basically a feat tax for both warblades and swordsages. It's useful to a warblade because it doesn't limit his use of maneuvers in the same way that his normal recovery method does and for a swordsage it's obvious, refresh one maneuver as a full action or refresh all maneuvers and a full action at the cost of a feat. It also allows you to not only refresh but also reready your maneuvers for when you need one that isn't ready but it needs to be now.

Crusaders are typically viewed as having the best recovery mechanic and don't really need Adaptive style. Instead Extra Granted Maneuver is a huge boon to them, taking away a little of the problem of randomly granted maneuvers.

Swordsages simply have more maneuvers both known and that they can have readied at once. The recovery is terrible, but the feat makes up for it pretty well.

[Keld Denar]

Its because Swordsages have nearly twice as many manevuers readied at any given time.

Warblades and Crusaders both have a very small list of maneuvers readied/granted. They cycle through this list quickly, refresh, and then cycle through them again.

Swordsages start an encounter with twice as many maneuvers readied. They typically don't have to recover maneuvers mid-combat, because it'll take them 3-4 rounds to burn through 6-8 readied maneuvers, and they are hoping that combat doesn't last much longer than that.

So basically, if the Warblade refreshes his maneuvers 0-1 times per combat, the Swordsage is ahead of him in terms of action economy. If the combat is long enough that the Warblade refreshes 2+ times, the Swordsage is generally running out of gas.

At least those are about the numbers I've seen from play.

EDIT: I've never seen Adaptive Style as a feat tax for Warblades, who's recovery mechanic still allows them to full attack, and only when dipping Swordsage do you ever really run out of maneuvers with them. Straight classed Swordsages generally have enough maneuvers readied to make it through a level appropriate encounter with proper planning.

[JonRG]

Derp. Never thought to look at the comparative number of maneuvers. Sorta just assumed they were the same.

Thanks for the thorough answer, Keld. :smallbiggrin: *gives a cookie*

[Keld Denar]

The numbers are all relative to the number of boosts and counters you have, as well. If you have all strikes, it'll take you more rounds to burn through them one at a time. If you are boosting and striking, you are using 2 maneuvers per round, and you'll run out in half the time. If you are holding a counter ready in case you have to make a save or dodge an attack, thats one less maneuver you don't have to beat people up with. So really, it all depends on your loadout.

[Erik von Nein]

What? I thought you could only use 1 maneuver per round, including boosts and counters.

Then, again, looking at the book I can't find the ruling for it. bah.

[Zagaroth]

no, you can use as many maneuvers as your actions meet. Usually a Boost + strike combo, with the possibility of a counter before your next turn (but then you won't be able to use a boost, as an immediate action burns up your swift action next turn)

[Keld Denar]

You can't find it because it doesn't exist. No, the only limit on maneuvers used/round is the number of actions you have. You could intiate Order Forged from Chaos (move), strike with Emerald Razor, and then when you drop your foe, boost Lion's Roar. 3 maneuvers in a round, and thats not even breaking out the real action abuse like being a Choaker or Chronotryn or abusing Ruby Knight Windicator.