Multiweapon fighting and Rapid Shot

[Silva Stormrage]

If a thrikeen or bow devil or any creature with enough arms to wield 2+ bows had rapid shot would it apply to each attack?

For Example would a character with 4 BAB that could fire 2 bows attack 3 or four times with rapid shot?

[dextercorvia]

No, Rapid shot would grant just one extra attack.

[MesiDoomstalker]

:smalltongue:
If a thrikeen or bow devil or any creature with enough arms to wield 2+ bows had rapid shot would it apply to each attack?

For Example would a character with 4 BAB that could fire 2 bows attack 3 or four times with rapid shot?

Your attack routine would be something like this, assuming 10 Dex and using two bows is equivelent to using two 1-handed weapons in TWF.

Main bow: -2/-2

Second bow: -4/-4

So your taking some massive penalties to do so but you can blot out the sun single handidly in upper levels. 16th level (16 BAB), whirling frenzy, splitting, and rapid shot and thw Multiweapon line.

Main bow: +10/+10/+10/+5/+0/-5

Second bow: +8/+8/+8/+3/-2/-7

thats a 24 arrows after splitting. Your horribly inaccurate (without an ungodly Dex and other attack bonuses) but you can take care of the faceless mook while the rest of the party does something useful. :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

Whirling Frenzy is also only going to add a single attack/full attack.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Whirling Frenzy is also only going to add a single attack/full attack.

Yes, and Rapid Shot as well. Thats 2 bonus attacks at full BAB (-2 of from Rapid Shot of course). Plus the regular one you get plus the rest of your iteratives.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, and Rapid Shot as well. Thats 2 bonus attacks at full BAB (-2 of from Rapid Shot of course). Plus the regular one you get plus the rest of your iteratives.

You listed the same number of attacks with the second bow as the first.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You listed the same number of attacks with the second bow as the first.

I fail to see the issue :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

I fail to see the issue :smallconfused:

Dual bow Fighter with Rapid Shot and Multiweapon Fighting and BAB+4 will have the following attack routine:

Main Bow -2/-2 Secondary Bow -2

If he also has Whirling Frenzy, then it is:

Main Bow -4/-4/-4; Secondary Bow -4

Mulitweapon just adds one attack with (each of) the offhand weapon(s). Rapid Shot just gives you one extra attack at your highest attack bonus applying a -2 penalty on everything, and Whirling Frenzy does the same.

Edit: When he gets to +6 BAB, our Rapid Whirling Dual Bow Wielder will have a routine of:

Main -2/-2/-2/-7; Secondary -2

(I neglected Dex or other bonuses)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dual bow Fighter with Rapid Shot and Multiweapon Fighting and BAB+4 will have the following attack routine:

Main Bow +0/+0 Secondary Bow +0

If he also has Whirling Frenzy, then it is:

Main Bow -2/-2/-2; Secondary Bow -2

Mulitweapon just adds one attack with (each of) the offhand weapon(s). Rapid Shot just gives you one extra attack at your highest attack bonus applying a -2 penalty on everything, and Whirling Frenzy does the same.

Ok, this is RAW but they were written not expecting them to interact with multillimbed creatures. RAI would give more attacks IMHO.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, this is RAW but they were written not expecting them to interact with multillimbed creatures. RAI would give more attacks IMHO.

No. A Whirling TWF Barbarian does not get extra attacks with his offhand from Whirling Frenzy. There is nothing to support your claim that more limbs(or weapons) means Rapid Shot or Whirling Frenzy do or should give more extra attacks than they say they do.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No. A Whirling TWF Barbarian does not get extra attacks with his offhand from Whirling Frenzy. There is nothing to support your claim that more limbs(or weapons) means Rapid Shot or Whirling Frenzy do or should give more extra attacks than they say they do.

I'm confused, I just said you were right. :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

I'm confused, I just said you were right. :smallconfused:

Then you referenced RAI, and I was explaining why even that doesn't help your case.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Then you referenced RAI, and I was explaining why even that doesn't help your case.

I admitted defeat and explained where my earlier arguments came from. Why did you need to further explain why you were right?

[Keld Denar]

Also, you can use TWFing and Rapid Shot together with thrown weapons, and again, Rapid Shot still only gives you 1 extra attack no matter how many limbs you are throwing with. Dex is correct on all accounts.

[dextercorvia]

I admitted defeat and explained where my earlier arguments came from. Why did you need to further explain why you were right?

You said, "RAI would give more attacks IMHO." I believe what you mean to say is that you think it would be a reasonable houserule. RAI actually stands for Rules as Intended, and it is very hard to discern normally. In this case, I believe that it is clear that they only intended the feat Rapid Shot, or the ability Whirling Frenzy to each give you one extra attack per round -- no matter what. The wording is clear.

I'm not trying to beat up on you, so much as I am pedantic about the use/misuse of the various RA$ acronyms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If by 'bow devil' you mean the Arrow Demon in MM3, it has a special ability which specifically allows its second bow to get just as many attacks as its primary bow. Thus, an Arrow Demon using two bows with Rapid Shot will indeed get an extra attack with the second bow as well, but that's an effect of its racial ability and not something normal for Rapid Shot.

If it were RAI for this to happen anyway, then the Arrow Demon would not have its Symmetrical Archery special ability, because it wouldn't be necessary.

If you're fighting with two weapons, whether via TWF or MWF, and you would gain an additional attack during a full attack, then you only gain one additional attack, not one per weapon. This includes, but is not limited to, Rapid Shot, Haste, Whirling Frenzy, Slashing Flurry, Flurry of Blows, and Flurry of Strikes.

[dextercorvia]

If by 'bow devil' you mean the Arrow Demon in MM3, it has a special ability which specifically allows its second bow to get just as many attacks as its primary bow. Thus, an Arrow Demon using two bows with Rapid Shot will indeed get an extra attack with the second bow as well, but that's an effect of its racial ability and not something normal for Rapid Shot.

If it were RAI for this to happen anyway, then the Arrow Demon would not have its Symmetrical Archery special ability, because it wouldn't be necessary.

If you're fighting with two weapons, whether via TWF or MWF, and you would gain an additional attack during a full attack, then you only gain one additional attack, not one per weapon. This includes, but is not limited to, Rapid Shot, Haste, Whirling Frenzy, Slashing Flurry, Flurry of Blows, and Flurry of Strikes.

I disagree.


when making a full-attack action, it can fire one arrow from each bow for each of its normal iterative attacks (two arrows from each
bow, each shaft at a –2 penalty)

That does not allow a doubling of Rapid Shot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Symmetrical Archery (Ex): The arrow demon has an
amazing ability to wield two bows at once in unison. Any
time the arrow demon could make a single attack with a
bow, it can attack with both of its bows, at –2 to all its attack
rolls that round."

Rapid Shot grants an attack with a bow, thus it could attack with both of its bows. Haste grants an attack with a bow, thus it could attack with both its bows.

You've quoted the 'for example' section as though it described the extent to which the ability could be used. It's just one example of how the ability works, there could be other examples for times it could make an attack and instead attacks with both bows.

[dextercorvia]

"Symmetrical Archery (Ex): The arrow demon has an
amazing ability to wield two bows at once in unison. Any
time the arrow demon could make a single attack with a
bow, it can attack with both of its bows, at –2 to all its attack
rolls that round."

Rapid Shot grants an attack with a bow, thus it could attack with both of its bows. Haste grants an attack with a bow, thus it could attack with both its bows.

You've quoted the 'for example' section as though it described the extent to which the ability could be used. It's just one example of how the ability works, there could be other examples for times it could make an attack and instead attacks with both bows.

You're right. My mistake. That is a pretty sweet ability.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If by 'bow devil' you mean the Arrow Demon in MM3, it has a special ability which specifically allows its second bow to get just as many attacks as its primary bow. Thus, an Arrow Demon using two bows with Rapid Shot will indeed get an extra attack with the second bow as well, but that's an effect of its racial ability and not something normal for Rapid Shot.

If it were RAI for this to happen anyway, then the Arrow Demon would not have its Symmetrical Archery special ability, because it wouldn't be necessary.

If you're fighting with two weapons, whether via TWF or MWF, and you would gain an additional attack during a full attack, then you only gain one additional attack, not one per weapon. This includes, but is not limited to, Rapid Shot, Haste, Whirling Frenzy, Slashing Flurry, Flurry of Blows, and Flurry of Strikes.

Minor nitpick about haste, it specifically mentions that you get extra attacks with all weapons held. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)

[Cieyrin]

Dancing/Raging Mongoose DOES specifically give extra attacks when wielding multiple weapons, though I don't recall whether they cap it at 2 weapon fighting or whether multiweapon fighters get a bone on that front as well. Also, since we're talking about multiweapon fighters, anyways, you can psuedo Rapid Shot more than once with Multitasking from Savage Species, since essentially partial actions are standards, so effectively you have an extra standard action as long as it's done with a separate pair of hands. Hence, you can standard attack with your off-hand bow after your full attack. :smallwink:

As an aside, if you care to check my Homebrew sig, the Crossbow Slinger PrC I wrote a while ago has a specific clause for Rapid Shotting with both crossbows, as that particular bit annoyed me as well. I don't recall whether I wrote it that it supports multiweapon slingers but I don't mind revisiting it to adjust the wording. :smallwink:

[Urpriest]

Minor nitpick about haste, it specifically mentions that you get extra attacks with all weapons held. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)

Any weapon =/= all weapons. It just means you can pick anything you're wielding.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Any weapon =/= all weapons. It just means you can pick anything you're wielding.

That......is just stupid. I'm not blaming you but that is just ridicoulous. It makes T/MWF even MORE uesless. Now I realize, finally, that the writers were on crack. I mean c'mon! -mumbles something about melee can't have nice things-

[Cieyrin]

That......is just stupid. I'm not blaming you but that is just ridicoulous. It makes T/MWF even MORE uesless. Now I realize, finally, that the writers were on crack. I mean c'mon! -mumbles something about melee can't have nice things-

At least it isn't the 3.0 version where it became essentially a caster buff, since, OMG, extra standard = extra spell cast that round without quickening! Maybe that's they went overboard or didn't consider the implications that many characters don't just use one weapon but, really, if I want an extra attack on each of my weapons, I'll just make them Speed Weapons and get an extra attack with both all the time, rather than when the caster bothers to buff me instead of breaking the game balance over his knee.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, RAW an arrow demon with spliting on the second bow make a NI number of shots.

fires one arrow -> makes two attacks -> now it can fire it's second bow twice -> makes 4 more attacks -> now it can match the extra two attacks with the first bow....:smalleek:

Yes, you have a NI penelty to all shots, but with NI attacks you get NI crit auto hits (but none ever confirm).

[Keld Denar]

if I want an extra attack on each of my weapons, I'll just make them Speed Weapons and get an extra attack with both all the time

Debateable. The rules are pretty adamant in all places, including the text of "of Speed" weapons that you can never gain more than one extra attack per round due to Haste or a Haste-like magical effect (like Valiant Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Snake's Swiftness, etc).

[Cieyrin]

Debateable. The rules are pretty adamant in all places, including the text of "of Speed" weapons that you can never gain more than one extra attack per round due to Haste or a Haste-like magical effect (like Valiant Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Snake's Swiftness, etc).

The thing that sets Speed apart is that it specifies getting an extra attack with that weapon and excluding extra attacks from other effects. It only considers the specific weapon for the effects, not other weapons you may be wielding. So, if you wield 2 different Speed weapons, you get an extra attack with each of them that won't stack with other Haste-likes. At least, that's my interpretation, though I've seen debate favoring both sides of that particular argument.

[Keld Denar]

OR it could mean that you get one (1) extra Haste attack, but it HAS to be with that weapon. Thus, no holding your uber +30 Triple Wounding Cleaver of Bloody DismembershipTM in your main hand, a "cheap" +1 Speed dagger in your offhand, and getting that one extra attack with your main hand. Given that "of Speed" specifically states that it doesn't stack with other similar sources, and "of Speed" is pretty dang similar to "of Speed", that seems like a more likely interpretation.

As I said...debatable.

[SamBurke]

:smalltongue:

Your attack routine would be something like this, assuming 10 Dex and using two bows is equivelent to using two 1-handed weapons in TWF.

Main bow: -2/-2

Second bow: -4/-4

So your taking some massive penalties to do so but you can blot out the sun single handidly in upper levels. 16th level (16 BAB), whirling frenzy, splitting, and rapid shot and thw Multiweapon line.

Main bow: +10/+10/+10/+5/+0/-5

Second bow: +8/+8/+8/+3/-2/-7

thats a 24 arrows after splitting. Your horribly inaccurate (without an ungodly Dex and other attack bonuses) but you can take care of the faceless mook while the rest of the party does something useful. :smalltongue:

It's called two levels of artificer (At least the PF version). You now have insta-use bows of True Strike, for free.

[Greenish]

Dancing/Raging Mongoose DOES specifically give extra attacks when wielding multiple weapons, though I don't recall whether they cap it at 2 weapon fighting or whether multiweapon fighters get a bone on that front as well.They specifically give you extra attack/two extra attacks with each weapon you wield, but then turn around and cap the maximum amount of extra attacks you can get to 2/4.

[Cieyrin]

They specifically give you extra attack/two extra attacks with each weapon you wield, but then turn around and cap the maximum amount of extra attacks you can get to 2/4.

Well then, it works for dual bow wielding without feeling gimped, then, given we're only worrying about using 2 bows and we thus hit the cap and aren't worried about bypassing it.

As for using Speed weapons for a Bag of Puppies style trick, I don't think I was implying anything of the sort, just that Speed only affects that weapon and no other, not that I want to be a Thri-Kreen or Diopsid with my Bad-Ass Weapon of DoomTM and holding speed daggers or shuriken in my 2 other claws so i can get extra attacks with the aforementioned weapon. Again, as we both agree, Keld, it's a much debated subject. Something to talk to your DM about, should you be curious on his/her interpretation of the rules on that particular area of the rules, certainly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They specifically give you extra attack/two extra attacks with each weapon you wield, but then turn around and cap the maximum amount of extra attacks you can get to 2/4.

That's true, but a Thri-Kreen with two bows gains just as much benefit from those as a two-armed character fighting with two weapons.


If you want to make a Thri-Kreen archer, get Soulbow with Multiweapon Fighting to fire Mind Arrows from all four hands, for twice as many attacks as you would get using two bows.