Sometimes being a Sorcerer angers me

[Cole10000]

ok this is to vent my frustration a little as well as ask for advice, but truthfully see how advice can help at this point.

Ok the story goes like this, a few days ago i was playing some D&D with my friends as a sorcer and i'm currently at 6th level.

we are traveling to castle whatever to kill -insert generic enemy here- and a few days into it we stop for camp (yay random encounters) im sitting there chilling but our female ranger says she's stired of eating cold rations and goes to cook up some rabbits,

and i want it to go on record that i warned her, i really did in real life i said and i quote "really? are you just instigateing a random encounter, i swear to god if something shows up im casting fly and leaveing you people."

needless to say it did because in the middle of the night something trips my ward spell (we didnt even get a spot or listen check i might add) and turns out to be seven twelve foot tall raptors

me: alright peaceout guys im outa here.

them: :smallmad:

me: fine

so we procede to begin random encounter and it imeaditely starts out terribly for me because guess what you know how theres seven raptors? welll three of em decide to go after me and all my 22 hitpoints :smallannoyed:

so we kill one i think it was in the second round actually, we arent doing too terrible until the bane of all d&d spellcasters happens

yep thats right i rolled a one while casting magic missile

me: ****, well what happens

DM: lemme see here, hmmm... you blow your arm off for 32 points of damage

me: WHAT THE F*CK, why

DM: you fumbled

ME: and a magic missile insta kills me??

DM: oh wait your right, empower spell doesnt apply to fumbles, you take twenty points of damage.

ME: ok better, but still im sitting here at two hitpoints, with three raptors with plus 11 to attack, breathing down my neck, cleric already went and the only one who can still go before the raptors is the monk whos got his leg pinned

DM: yep

ME: so do i roll up a new character now or later

DM: later, it's late lets end it for today

Now do you feel my pain and see my conundrum, any thoughts or ideas to get myself out of this would be apreciated, i doubt it but please no just your screwed awnsers please i already know.

[lianightdemon]

umm why were you rolling to hit with magic missile?

Magic missile is auto hit

Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

[Lateral]

Being a Sorcerer isn't your problem. Your problem is using critical fumble rules.

...Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll; you can't fumble with it. :smallconfused:

[Cole10000]

for the specific reason of trying not to crew myself over, as you can see it didnt work out well:

and also according to my dm i fumbled on my spellcraft or concentration i dont remember which it was and thats why it happened.:

[lianightdemon]

You can't fumble skill checks. Even with a roll of 1 it's possible to succeed.
I would talk to your Gm about changing those rules and having him let your sorc survive the encounter.

[DeAnno]

Being in a campaign with Crit fumble tables should be what angers you.

[Cole10000]

hmmm i guess i could try but id doubt hed listen and even though i didnt narate i did kinda bitched at him about it but like i said we've been using fumbles for all of them so i guess i could try

edit: wow my gramar sucks when i type fast

edit, edit: he also uses some weird rulebook i've never heard of before so that might explain it, as close as i can tell it's closest to either 3e or 3.5e

[faceroll]

Please punctuate. Reading your garbled, misspelled mess is a headache.


Why didn't you cast fly in the first place? You could have hovered nicely out of raptor range and pelted them with spells.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, if I recall correctly, you're using "Torn asunder" but there's a problem.

There is no attack on magic missile. There's no skill check. There's no rolling involved to hit with the spell.

There is nothing there you can fumble.

[Calanon]

me: alright peaceout guys im outa here.

them: :smallmad:

me: fine

Your main problem is that you didn't just leave >_>
If you warn the party ahead of time that crap is going down if you do so and so, and they DON'T listen to you, than you are COMPLETELY justified in just flying away... btw you were flying? how they hell did 12ft tall raptors jump that high just to get you anyway? (Did they have wings? :smalleek:)

[Gavinfoxx]

Ask him to show you the names of all of the rulebooks he uses for this game, and to write down the house rules and email them to you.

[Cole10000]

alright the main reason that i did not cast fly in the first place was mainly for two reasons

reason number 1. Ranger threatened to shoot me down if i tried to fly away, and truthfully with the damage she dishes out it's safer to chance the raptors and they're about to kill me.

reason number 2. i asked the same ranger how high they could jump or if they had any kind of ranged attack, she said they had some crazy like fifty foot jump range.

edit: wow alot of posts.

to try and awnser your questions i believe the ranger threatining to kill me if i booked and she can shoot at least twice with her bow at me before i get out of range, and she can do like four shots per round.

i have asked him in the past about the rulebook but never got any difinitive awnsers and im still kinda annoyed about it.

with the fumble the way he does it as i've been informed, if you fumble either your concentration check or your spell craft check something goes wrong. he says it's just change i you know blew my own arm off but chance seems to be screwing me over alot in this campaign, hell i even died offscreen at one point.

[Mystic Muse]

alright the main reason that i did not cast fly in the first place was mainly for two reasons

reason number 1. Ranger threatened to shoot me down if i tried to fly away, and truthfully with the damage she dishes out it's safer to chance the raptors and they're about to kill me.
Reasonable.




reason number 2. i asked the same ranger how high they could jump or if they had any kind of ranged attack, she said they had some crazy like fifty foot jump range.

Okay, unless these are homebrew, she's just lying. Megaraptors (I'm assuming that's what they are, given your descriptions) do not have a fifty foot jump range.

[Steward]

I think you're blaming the class for a few honest mistakes on either your or the DM's part.

I would recommend channeling your anger and frustration into your spells.

[Cole10000]

to try and awnser your questions i believe the ranger threatining to kill me if i booked and she can shoot at least twice with her bow at me before i get out of range, and she can do like four shots per round.

i have asked him in the past about the rulebook but never got any difinitive awnsers and im still kinda annoyed about it.

with the fumble the way he does it as i've been informed, if you fumble either your concentration check or your spell craft check something goes wrong. he says it's just change i you know blew my own arm off but chance seems to be screwing me over alot in this campaign, hell i even died offscreen at one point.

[The Mister Guy]

how they hell did 12ft tall raptors jump that high just to get you anyway? (Did they have wings? :smalleek:)
Just a note. Normal raptors have some +40 to jump or something. 12ft ones? :smalleek:

Also, raptors... with wings? (Grabs shotgun and pumps it.) :furious: IT'S F**KING ON!!!!! LETS DO THIS THING!!!!! (Fly's away in helicopter.)

Edit: Ok, turns out Megaraptors only have +27 to jump, but still...

[opticalshadow]

as its been said, you cannot in anyway have failed that cast. even if you fumbled a cont check, or a spellcraft check (though neither even apply) it still would allow you to fumble in any way shape or form save dm homebrewing. MM is the go to spell, the one that wont fail, when all else turns and runs, little blue darts fly and burn.

if my dm tried to tell me my mm fumbled, i might kick his chair out from under him.

seriously talk to him, critical fails are first off, terrible terrible rules to use, but can be fun if you dont have insta gibs.

[Tvtyrant]

Just a note. Normal raptors have some +40 to jump or something. 12ft ones? :smalleek:

Also, raptors... with wings? (Grabs shotgun and pumps it.) :furious: IT'S F**KING ON!!!!! LETS DO THIS THING!!!!! (Fly's away in helicopter.)

Tis called a bird.

[Mystic Muse]

with the fumble the way he does it as i've been informed, if you fumble either your concentration check or your spell craft check something goes wrong. he says it's just change i you know blew my own arm off but chance seems to be screwing me over alot in this campaign, hell i even died offscreen at one point.

There is no concentration check involved in casting magic missile.

There is no spell craft check involved in casting magic missile.

Magic missile is an auto-hit spell. You do not need to roll to hit with it, it just hits and deals damage. That's the entire point of the spell. There should not be any d20 rolling involved in the casting of the spell, because it is not a spell you can fumble.

This has nothing to do with being a sorcerer. This has everything to do with your ranger threatening to shoot you down, and your DM using house rules that screw you over.

Even ignoring all this, you cannot "Fumble" a skill check. Skill checks do not automatically fail on 1s.

[Talentless]

to try and awnser your questions i believe the ranger threatining to kill me if i booked and she can shoot at least twice with her bow at me before i get out of range, and she can do like four shots per round.

i have asked him in the past about the rulebook but never got any difinitive awnsers and im still kinda annoyed about it.

with the fumble the way he does it as i've been informed, if you fumble either your concentration check or your spell craft check something goes wrong. he says it's just change i you know blew my own arm off but chance seems to be screwing me over alot in this campaign, hell i even died offscreen at one point.

vote with your feet and leave then.

Seriously, disregarding all other issues with this one encounter. Your DM chose to make it possible for your character to die off screen without you present, thats just messed up and into the trolling a player range.

Second, being vague about the rules also falls under trolling the player, the DM does have final say in their story, but player's have a right to know what they are getting into so they don't get unreasonably gibbed due to build or playstyle.

And finally, yunoinvis? Unless I'm completely misremembering spell levels, the fact that you can fly should totally mean that you should have invis available right? You should of just invis'd, flight'd and peaced on out of there.


/edit, at above, it could be a defensive casting concentration check because raptors might be in range... but then why he didn't just five foot step out of the issue and then cast magic missle is beyond me.

[Arbane]

Pass this on to your DM:


I've never met a GM who's made me insist on this but my take (as a player) on fumble rules is this:

Take ten 1st level warriors, in melee with 10 straw dummies (medium
inanimate objects, AC5).
The warriors make their 1 attack per round, for 2 minutes (20 rounds); the dummies make no attacks during this time.
If, after 2 minutes of battering straw dummies, any of the warriors are dead or dying then the GM must butter his fumble rules and eat them.

Hewhosaysfish is wise.

[Mystic Muse]

Just a note. Normal raptors have some +40 to jump or something. 12ft ones? :smalleek:


Oh, she may have just misunderstood.

+40 to jump checks doesn't mean +40 feet. +40 means +10 feet high, and 40 feet long

for a high jump, you'd need a skill of +200 to be guaranteed a 50 foot jump.

[AdalKar]

:smalleek:

Okay, that's a mess you got into and I don't mean the fight, I mean the party and the group.

For one the party: If a member of my party threatend to kill my char, he would get out of this party ASAP and/or would maybe plan or right out do a preemptive strike.

And second the group: What the HECK are you guys playing? I mean seriously, what kind of messed up houserules is your DM using? :smallfurious:
You had to do a roll for casting, okay, could be to cast defensively, you said there were three enemies at your side. But (!) you can't fumble skill checks, as was already said and even if you could you would have just lost the spell/slot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#castingDefensively).

You got a bad DM :smallmad:

My honest opinion.

[Cole10000]

ok so i think you guys might be getting the wrong impression of my gm here he's a cool guy and a friend of mine.

and for the record (again) i bitched my ass off to him both when i blew my arm off and when i died offscreen

oh and to elaborate the offscreen thing while he did let me get ressed quickly i died in battle for some reason when a motherfing drow spear aparently critted me through the chest insta killing me.

and the no invis thing yeah i only have acess to one level three spell at the moment and as a sorc i cant change it

[dextercorvia]

What everyone else said about Critical Fumbles and there being nothing to Fumble with a Magic Missile -- that is the point of the spell, it hits everything without a shield spell or SR.

Now, how did your DM calculate 3*(1d4+1) and get 20 damage? Sounds like he is either as bad at math as he is recognizing awful rules, or he hates you.

[Mystic Muse]

ok so i think you guys might be getting the wrong impression of my gm here he's a cool guy and a friend of mine.


Alright. Take some time to type everything out and try to explain the situation a bit better okay? Or get your DM and tell him to register an account so he can explain his side.

No offense, but your posts are a bit hard to read, so it's hard to understand exactly what you're saying.

[Cole10000]

yeah what he said i mean before hand the dm said he was intentionally prepareing to deal with my flying ( translation, make it useless )

[Acanous]

Invisibility is a level 1 spell. You'd have it far, far before flight.

[Cole10000]

ok to everyone first off, i apologise for my hard to read posts.

Ok here's where this gets tricky, when this friend of mine sets his mind on something he usually doesnt change it.

If i tell him i want him to register just so i can have other people tell him he's wrong he probobly won't do it.

again with the situation, it's freaking hard for me to understand as i havent been able to look at the rulebook.

it's my first time playing by these rules as well.

while he has sort of screwed me over at times he has helped me out, but even so i perosonally think he's trolling me a bit for bitching at him about the dieing offscreen thing.

[Calanon]

alright the main reason that i did not cast fly in the first place was mainly for two reasons

reason number 1. Ranger threatened to shoot me down if i tried to fly away, and truthfully with the damage she dishes out it's safer to chance the raptors and they're about to kill me.

reason number 2. i asked the same ranger how high they could jump or if they had any kind of ranged attack, she said they had some crazy like fifty foot jump range.

edit: wow alot of posts.

to try and awnser your questions i believe the ranger threatining to kill me if i booked and she can shoot at least twice with her bow at me before i get out of range, and she can do like four shots per round.

i have asked him in the past about the rulebook but never got any difinitive awnsers and im still kinda annoyed about it.

with the fumble the way he does it as i've been informed, if you fumble either your concentration check or your spell craft check something goes wrong. he says it's just change i you know blew my own arm off but chance seems to be screwing me over alot in this campaign, hell i even died offscreen at one point.

To be fair you were going to die no matter what so you were still justified in leaving

"Your threatening to kill me!? I'm out of here"

"These raptors are tough! I'm out..."

either way you look at it your not the bad guy for wanting to leave >_> you even warned them

[Cole10000]

i completely forgot to mention this but technically, the ranger is an npc

so thats why i didnt freak out as much as i might have if it was the cleric saying that.

also i might just be used to it because she's tried to kill me on , uh lets see four or five sperate occasions

[Acanous]

in D&D 3.5, there are a plethora of supplimental rules. The DM has the right to impliment any of these rules for his campaign. Players have the right to know the rules in effect, as it most certainly will effect how a character is built, plays, and progresses mechanically and in roleplay.

Ask to see his fumble chart, or it didn't happen.

[Mystic Muse]

If i tell him i want him to register just so i can have other people tell him he's wrong he probobly won't do it. Then tell him something like "Okay, I had a problem, a few people have told me that what you did wasn't in the rules, and they'd like to hear your side since I didn't represent the situation very well"



again with the situation, it's freaking hard for me to understand as i havent been able to look at the rulebook.

it's my first time playing by these rules as well.

Just ask him what it's called.

[Cole10000]

ok hold on a sec ill see if i can get a hold of him, i doubt it since it's so late.

and i probobly have to get going here as well

[AdalKar]

Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) is a second level spell, you could have known it at that time and seriously?

You're saying the DM is cool and all that and that may even be right, but that doesn't mean, that he's good at DMing, because if my DM would tell me beforehand that my tactic I was telling ingame to the party is going to fail because he wants it to, I would tell him that I
a)do it because my char doesn't know it wouldn't work.
b)never tell my next step to the party just to be sure he can't plan to screw me over again.
and c)every time I level go to him and ask him if he is ok with me taking a feat/spell or anything else, just so it isn't useless because he feels like it at a time. :smallmad:

Edit:
in D&D 3.5, there are a plethora of supplimental rules. The DM has the right to impliment any of these rules for his campaign. Players have the right to know the rules in effect, as it most certainly will effect how a character is built, plays, and progresses mechanically and in roleplay.

Ask to see his fumble chart, or it didn't happen.
Also this. Quoted for truth.

Edit2:
i completely forgot to mention this but technically, the ranger is an npc

so thats why i didnt freak out as much as i might have if it was the cleric saying that.

also i might just be used to it because she's tried to kill me on , uh lets see four or five sperate occasions
Okay, i would freak out even more if a NPC in my party would threaten to kill me, because you know, it sounds like the DM goes: "I don't like your char, do as I tell you or he's dead" or "You don't follow the rails, get back on the train or he's dead" or "No! You can't use a tactic other than the one I'm ok with, even if it would save you're char."
Again, I think he is bad at DMing, you should seriously talk to him about these issues and not bitch about it but trying to logicaly talk it through, maybe he realizes what kind of bulls**t he does with those rules...

By the by, what alignment is your char? I think like 70% of mine would have killed the NPC by now and the other 30% would have left and gone faaaaar away (because their alignment wouldn't allow killing helpless NPC in their sleep :smallbiggrin: ).

[Mystic Muse]

ok hold on a sec ill see if i can get a hold of him, i doubt it since it's so late.

and i probobly have to get going here as well

No problem. We can wait, and having him here to explain his side will help get this whole thing sorted out.

[Acanous]

I'd personally go say something like "I went to a D&D discusion forum to try and figure out what rules you were using and how to best build around them, and nobody had ever heard of a rule requiring a D20 roll for Magic Missile. Can you go site the rule for them so I can get some solid advice and don't sound like I'm just making it up?"

[Cole10000]

yeah i cant get a hold of him ill try again tommorow.

this is probobly going to be my last post tonight i have to get up in the morning.

anything else before i go that i can awnser right now?

[Gorgondantess]

Lesseee....
*Character died offscreen. You have a right to complain- this should NEVER happen. It's completely arbitrary.
*DM arbitrarily nullifying the usefulness of your sole 3rd level spell (as a sorcerer player, that's just messed up. You only have a few spells known, and if your sole high level spell isn't worth anything, that's pretty much half the class right there.)
*Bad DMPC (A DMPC alone is usually enough to put off most people. A DMPC threatening/trying to kill a PC multiple times? Bad news).
*Crit fail rules that don't satisfy the above test. There are pages and pages as to why this is a bad thing.

Not three, but four strikes, and all of these are egregious flaws to have in a DM. I don't care how good of a friend this guy is, if he's a bad DM he's a bad DM. Nothing personal, but you should seriously get out of this game.

[Acanous]

I have a question.
Is your DM allowing Forgotten Realms supplimental material? If so, I have a Dragonwrought Kobold build for your next character.

[Cole10000]

well im not sure about the suplemental we are in the forgotten realms setting.

in fact this is all happening right above... Schamedar to the east of calimport

edit: oh and whats with the dragonwrought kobold?

[NNescio]

well im not sure about the suplemental we are in the forgotten realms setting.

in fact this is all happening right above... Schamedar to the east of calimport

edit: oh and whats with the dragonwrought kobold?

Short answer: Über Sorcerer.

[Cole10000]

ok gotta go now, im getting tired.

feel free to leave more posts and discuss amongst yourelves i'll be on tommorow and look at them as soon as i can

[Delcor]

Invisibility is a level 1 spell. You'd have it far, far before flight.

Second level spell*

[Seerow]

i completely forgot to mention this but technically, the ranger is an npc

so thats why i didnt freak out as much as i might have if it was the cleric saying that.

also i might just be used to it because she's tried to kill me on , uh lets see four or five sperate occasions

Um, if its the DMPC threatening to kill you that's actually FAR worse.

If it's a fellow player, whatever they're doing their own thing. But what you're telling us is the GM (the Ranger's player) first decides he wants to cook some rabbit, which is what starts whole ordeal in the first place. Then, when you threaten to fly away like you told him you would if his cooking rabbit resulted in a random encounter, he threatens to kill you?

This sounds pretty much exactly like a DM deciding he wanted to make this encounter happen and to kill you in the process. Seriously, **** that ****. I don't care how good a guy he is, I'd have been out of that game faster than you can say "Zihuatanejo"

[Geigan]

Are you sure you're playing 3.5/3.0 here? Some of the rules I'm hearing don't sound like anything I've ever heard of. Rolling spellcraft checks to cast a spell? That's not typically applicable to anything, as the skill is designed to hash out the minutiae of identifying how spells work, not the actual casting of things. Concentration checks make sense if they're in melee range so you can cast defensively. The only problems I see are with fumbles which are house rules anyway, and DMs should be very clear about that sort of thing up front to avoid problems. In short I see nothing that's a part of the sorcerer class that's screwing you over so much as to house rules you don't fully understand.

[Acanous]

Second level spell*

Right. Typo. :oops:
Although you can get it at level one if you're a wizard XD

[Knaight]

Right. Typo. :oops:
Although you can get it at level one if you're a wizard XD

It remains a second level spell. Collegiate wizard is nice, but it doesn't change spell levels.

[Stone Heart]

Everything I would have said (no rolls to fumble on etc) are already posted, so I just want to see what your gm has to say about this stuff. Honestly it sounds like maybe a new gm? Have you guys not been playing very long? Sometimes when we started in my group whoever was dm that week would just scuff some rules, and in one campaign one of our players died because he rolled for magic missle and it critted.

[Mystic Muse]

It remains a second level spell. Collegiate wizard is nice, but it doesn't change spell levels.

Precocious apprentice allows you to know one second level spell if I recall correctly, and it must be taken at first level.

I don't have the book anymore, so I don't know if I do recall correctly.

[Cole10000]

now i would like to say a few things to get them off my mind so i can sleep

numero uno. the title of the thread is not really me being in rage about a sorcerer,

it is more so a joke than anything else, evidently in poor taste.



dos. i an in fact new to d&d in of itself

so when i heard all of these rules being explained i took them for standard.

the dm is actually the only one who has had prior experience with d&d

assume when your talking about something here that you feel is common knowledge assume i dont know,

because i probobly don't



and lastly

i am a true neutral sorcerer and the only reasons he hasnt killed the ranger chick

is one guilt, and two she'd probobly kick his ass she is really friggin overpowered imho.

around the dmpc thing, its kind of understandable because of the backstory

even though i didnt pick this as part of my backstory he just added it in
without my approval to my backstory which kind of pissed me off.

[Cole10000]

im trying to post a link to the tread of the campaign but im having technical difficulties here, sorry

[BillyBobJoe]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208384) Also, the comment about the DMPC disturbs me. An evil, overpowered ranger that's forcing you on to the railroad? Yeah, sounds like bad news.

[Infernalbargain]

Around the DMPC thing, it's kind of understandable because of the backstory.

Backstory isn't an excuse for having a terrible DMPC.


I am, in fact, new to D&D in of itself; so when I heard all of these rules being explained, I took them for standard.

Quite honestly you should invest the time to read the rules. The core rulebook is available to read at www.d20srd.com. While it is a lot to take in, I suggest at least reading the combat and magic sections as well as reading the details on the specific spells you pick.

One last thing, please proofread your posts. You are trying to solicit free advice from people who are here solely because they chose to be. If you want us to spend the effort in giving quality advice, you can spend some effort to have decent grammar.

[Knaight]

Precocious apprentice allows you to know one second level spell if I recall correctly, and it must be taken at first level.

I don't have the book anymore, so I don't know if I do recall correctly.

That might have been what I was thinking of. There is a feat that lets you get a second level spell early, and I thought it was Collegiate Wizard, but it might not have been. In any case, an actual change in spell level never happens.

[2xMachina]

Overpowered, DMPC, out to kill you, weird rules which are bad for you, offscreen death.

Yeah, he's trying to railroad/fiat your char's death.

EDIT: Also, Crit Fail rules fail critically.

[TOZ]

This DM seems to be trying for the Grand Slam of Bad DMing.

I recommend rolling a Commoner and seeing how many new and exciting ways you can get him killed.

Wait, no, I recommend finding a better DM.

Admittedly, this may not be possible, especially if this guy is your friend. (If he's not, I am baffled as to why you're playing with him.)

But yeah. Lot of work to be done on this one.

[lianightdemon]

yeh you should have cast fly and then began shooting magic missiles at the ranger if he began shooting at you.

Next character make something insanely broken, since clearly you can't survive with a moderately balanced character.

[kamikasei]

we are traveling to castle whatever to kill -insert generic enemy here- and a few days into it we stop for camp (yay random encounters) im sitting there chilling but our female ranger says she's stired of eating cold rations and goes to cook up some rabbits,

and i want it to go on record that i warned her, i really did in real life i said and i quote "really? are you just instigateing a random encounter, i swear to god if something shows up im casting fly and leaveing you people."
You huddle in your camp afraid to forage for food for fear it'll prompt a random encounter? You don't dare hunt rabbits because it results in raptor ambushes?

That to me is a big red flag even before the whole fumble mess starts.

Also... if the ranger is an NPC, how does this make any sense? Do you mean the DM decided he wanted a random encounter so he had the NPC act to justify one, and your complaints were entirely OOC?

[DeAnno]

Also... if the ranger is an NPC, how does this make any sense? Do you mean the DM decided he wanted a random encounter so he had the NPC act to justify one, and your complaints were entirely OOC?

Fly + Protection from Arrows + Scorching Ray = Dead Ranger

Build towards it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Note that making a fire to cook the rabbits might attract predators.

[Yahzi]

First things first: you should have cast Fly on the Ranger. And yourself. Then both of you could have hovered safely over the battlefield while the Ranger shot the helpless raptors like fish in a barrel.

Second: Your problem is not being a sorcerer. Your problem is your DM. House rules are cool; even a house rule that makes magic dangerous to use is cool. However, why do you even know Magic Missile? Save your spell casting for things that win, like Charm Person. Clearly you didn't understand that when you picked your spells. House rules that you didn't know about or understand are not cool.

And DMPCs are never cool. That right there is the number one red flag. Number two is that the DMPC is more powerful than you. That is two red cards right off the bat.

The best thing you can do for your friend's DMing education is tell him that you read on the boards that DMPCs are illegal. As in, Wizards of the Coast will sue him and send him to jail for copyright abuse.

Your game will be 10x better once the DMPCs are gone. It will still be pretty wonky, but it will be way better.

[Cole10000]

Alright, just woke up, and im waiting for a little bit before I get going.

Time to kill some time. heh.


Regarding the me complaining about starting the cooking fire was yes, partly out of character.

Although I did have in character reasoning for saying such. The biggest reason which is debateable if it is actually considered in or out of character.

It was that every random encounter some random whatever, giant bugs, panthers, spell happy gnomes.

Every one snuck up on us while we were settleing down to camp for the night, and i always was the one being targeted.

I even called him out on them always going after the me thing. Yes while they weren't specifically only going after me.

It was just that 90% of them time they tried to kill me first in groups of two or three, or just knock me off while on watch.

So this was mainly why I didn't want for a random encounter to occur here.

I believe my qualms are justified because the main reason for this tread is how i'm about to die due to said random encounter.

edit: Oh sorry the Panthers didn't sneak up on us at night so i guess not all of them got us when we camped. Just a large portion.

[Killer Angel]

Player: we try to keep a low profile to avoid dangerous encounters at all cost.
DM: Fine. My DMPC will provoke a random encounter.
DM: and BTW, my DMPC will kill you if you don't fight.
DM: ...who cares, maybe I'll kill you anyway.

Yeah, it's not the character that should leave the group. It's the player that should leave the table.

Edit: it's a good friend? the answer is the same. When a particular friend of mine is Dmastering, I don't play with him.

[ericgrau]

Nothing in your character will save you from bad DMing. Talk to the DM about while simultaneously browsing game stores and gaming group classifieds to build up your backup options.

[Killer Angel]

Every one snuck up on us while we were settleing down to camp for the night, and i always was the one being targeted.


Again, you should leave while this DM masters.

A "in game" solution? you need a different spell list. Fly, invisibility and summons. And Rope Trick.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

And DMPCs are never cool.
Not true.


The best thing you can do for your friend's DMing education is tell him that you read on the boards that DMPCs are illegal. As in, Wizards of the Coast will sue him and send him to jail for copyright abuse.
What is this, I don't even...


Your game will be 10x better once the DMPCs are gone.
Although it's true in this particular situation, it's because of a stupid DM, not the DMPC. They can be good, if the DM isn't a retard.

[Vangor]

Although it's true in this particular situation, it's because of a stupid DM, not the DMPC. They can be good, if the DM isn't a retard.

The frequency with which DMPCs may be good is such that the default recommendation should be not to, similar to handling downed power lines. Yes, sometimes handling them is good provided you have the proper equipment and in the current position the lines represent a danger to others, but unless you know how to create, introduce, and manage a DMPC properly, do not.

[ericgrau]

As bad as DMPCs are I think the OP has a bigger problem making that issue fairly moot IMO. Take care of the currently active forest fire before taking care of the guy who carelessly discards his cigarretes, y'know? For example the wonky house rules and contrived encounters making the game unplayable and unfun. Talk to the DM about those while also getting prepared to leave the group in case that fails. Finding a new group takes time so you want to get started early even if discussions succeed and you don't need the new group. Being prepared to take action also puts more weight on your arguments.

[CTrees]

The thing that keeps getting me is...

1) there should be no reason to roll spellcraft when casting
2) if you're casting defensively or taking an AoO (5ft step, much?), sure, roll concentration, but if that fails... the bad result is that you lose the spell.
3) MM doesn't have an attack roll (thus, why people fall back on it), so that can't be the fumble
4) for some reason, you critically fumbled something, and hit yourself with all three missiles. Empowered, that's 3x(1d4+1)x1.5, max 22, avg 11. Non-empowered, max 15, avg 7.5. HOW THE BLOODY BAATOR DID YOU DO 3220 DAMAGE TO YOURSELF WITH MAGIC MISSILE AS A SIXTH LEVEL SORC!?!?!

Anyway I kinda want to see the flowchart of rolls you have to go through to cast a spell. Sounds like you could end up spontaneously combusting for trying to cast Arcane Mark :smallconfused:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I totally understand the lure of playing with friends, and how that can make it hard to walk away (that's the situation I've been in for the last year, minus highly annoying hiatuses). Finding a different group, though, can be really difficult, depending on your town. If yours is like mine... yeah. My best idea is the FLGS, but the groups that play there appear to be exclusively 4E, so I'm personally stumped (IRL groups just appeal most to me).

EDIT: Also, DMPCs can eat it. That clearly evil ranger (threatening to murder someone for retreating if one's actions bring a bad result is not good)? Murder. In. Sleep.

[Anxe]

If I were you I would do one of three things.

1. Play dead.
2. Yell for help and keep blasting with your spells and such.
3. Go in for a grapple and ride one of those Raptors!
http://www.johnwizard.com/misc/jw1y/johnwizard_1year_1920.jpg

[Keld Denar]

My question on this...are there ANY other PCs? It sounds like its just you and the DMPC. If so...yea. I see why you are being railroaded. I suggest if that is the case, find some more friends and get a group of people to play. That way your "friend" can't continue being an autocratic douchewaffle. If he persists, start a union...strike if he wants to keep being a bad DM. SOLIDARITY!

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. Just to let you know?

That game you are playing?

It is not Dungeons and Dragons 3.0e edition, Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e, or Pathfinder.

It is a crazy, houserule, railroading, power-trip-for-the-dm, D20 system-based **** off session for the DM. It's not a GAME. A game implies there are, you know, rules or options or choices or things. You don't have those; the DM is inevitably screwing you over no matter what you try to do.

My question to you is: Why are you helping the DM live out his power trip fantasies? Aren't you supposed to be playing an enjoyable game with him instead?

Also, do you have Dyslexia? Or Is English your second language?

[dextercorvia]

4) for some reason, you critically fumbled something, and hit yourself with all three missiles. Empowered, that's 3x(1d4+1)x1.5, max 22, avg 11. Non-empowered, max 15, avg 7.5. HOW THE BLOODY BAATOR DID YOU DO 3220 DAMAGE TO YOURSELF WITH MAGIC MISSILE AS A SIXTH LEVEL SORC!?!?!


Thank you for reiterating this excellent point. I asked on the first page, and it hasn't been answered.

[Cole10000]

yeah again even i dont have half an idea of whats going on half the time.

i mean iwhen i first started playing this i assumed that was just how it worked.

evidently i was wrong because thinking about it personally it makes no sense

how can you fumble on a skill check, well excludeing disarm check and things of those nature,

i mean thinking about it this fumble system i've been playing on means that it is in all likelyness that i can kill myself if i say wanted to cast fireball.

because 6d6 fire damage directed at me means crispy sorcerer.

Now i really want to bite my DM's head off here because this **** makes no sense whatsoever.

The way he uses the spell system makes spellcasters next to useless.

Considering when casting a spell we have just as much a chance to kill ourselves as our enemies.

oh and here is another specific example of how messed up this is. so im thinking something is about to attack us right so i go to cast mage armor.

Guess what i fumbled and DISINTEGRATED MY CLOTHES.

how the hell does that even work. i mean i kind of just took it in stride at the time and laughed it off because i didnt want to kill the game, but really?

well i'll try and get my dm an account on here before this becomes even more of a slam fest without him even being able to defend himself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S yes there are more pcs

While not everyone shows up every time, the ones that showed up last time were.

ME, Sorcerer (duh)

Dwarven Cleric

Human Monk

Elf rouge

and of course the ranger chick that wants to cut my balls off.

[dextercorvia]

Here, let me get you started: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks)


Skill Checks

A skill check takes into account a character’s training (skill rank), natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also take into account his or her race’s knack for doing certain things (racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other things.

To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability, plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.

Edit: Also, casting a spell doesn't require a skill check, but I thought you should know this anyway.

[~Nye~]

Well, I think it was a bit unfortunate, my first D&D character I played got to lvl 17. (God only knows how, because then I used to suck!) anyway, it became a running joke that our sorc would always throw AoEs around me, the thing is any normal rogue would save vs. reflex. However I'd always roll nat 1's... Dice are fickle friends!! :smallfurious:
Anyway, my point is maybe that was a bit unlucky, moreover, you're a level 6 Sorc, MM is like bread and butter, you've cast it so many times it's a lvl 1 spell it should be second nature to you. As most people have pointed out, you don't need to roll anything to hit/save etc.

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, it doesn't even sound like this "friend" of yours even likes you. Its like hanging out with that guy who says "your mom" after everything you say. Its a little funny at first, and timed right, but over and over and over again, it becomes clear that this guy is just being a douche to you. You don't have to put up with that. Does playing the game mean so much to you that you would put up with that kind of degradation and abuse? If this was your girlfriend treating you that way, we'd all tell you to dump her dumb butt because the relationship is abusive and unhealthy. Well, friendships can be abusive and unhealthy too, and this one sounds like it. He's having fun at your expense, and you sound like you resent it. Thats a huge warning sign, you might want to take a closer look at things.

The problem isn't with the game, or your lack of knowledge in it. That is simply how the symtom manifests. The problem is that your DM is a giant flaming douchewaffle, and no amount of game mastery will fix that.

Also, before you drag him here to face the jury, it might be worthwhile to consult these rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), specifically the section about external baggage. If you have any questions about them, PM a mod, they are uber-friendly and helpful.

[Allanimal]

oh and here is another specific example of how messed up this is. so im thinking something is about to attack us right so i go to cast mage armor.

Guess what i fumbled and DISINTEGRATED MY CLOTHES.

this would be awesome if you were playing Toon. D&D, not at all.
You can't fumble casting Mage armor on yourself. There is nothing to roll...

[Alejandro]

If your GM will not let you peruse any of the rules of the game you are going to play, you should not play any more.

Would you sign a contract without reading it, or play a gambling game for money where you are not told the rules ahead of time and must simply rely on what the 'house' says?

[Calanon]

The best thing you can do for your friend's DMing education is tell him that you read on the boards that DMPCs are illegal. As in, Wizards of the Coast will sue him and send him to jail for copyright abuse.

Your game will be 10x better once the DMPCs are gone. It will still be pretty wonky, but it will be way better.

Ok first of all: What? Every DM i've ever played with has DMPC'd (Granted albeit weaker than the main party) the reason for this is so that he can lead us along to the next part of the game where the plot is going to take place, however most of our parties act as a form of democracy with the elected party leader actually leading us! if we disagree with the DMPC than thats fine and we can have a little side quest for us to get exp or gold or whatever but ultimately we're going to have to do the quest the Dmpc wants us to do (Otherwise its just us running around slaughtering every single dragon in creation) for example we get the options between

1. Foiling a religious cults movements
2. Taking down a band of thieves
3. performing a heist of a famous mages library for spells for our mage
4. taking down a dreaded dragons den of evil (or good sometimes)
5. Taking down an infamous Necromancer before he can complete his ritual that will turn him into a Lich (in this example this is the Dmpc's quest)

the DM does penalize us for doing the side quest. maybe the bad guy has some more minions or they have better weapons or there stronger either way its fine and we usually accept this knowing full well that the more we delay our conflict the stronger there going to get...

So are DMPC's a bad thing? No, not always as long as the DM uses them to pull the story along rather than just slaughter everything in the path of the players so they barely get exp or threaten them (which happened to our fine OP) however in some games the DM will make the DMPC stronger than everyone else only so that they can move the story along and the party can get more exp. I actually enjoy when the DM makes an DMPC so we know what to do in our quest and were not just running around blindly slaughtering everything that can give us exp...

TL;DR DMPC's help the story move along as long as the DM isn't a jerk about it making them only as strong as needed

[Greenish]

If your GM will not let you peruse any of the rules of the game you are going to play, you should not play any more.Unless it's Paranoia. :smalltongue:

[Alejandro]

Unless it's Paranoia. :smalltongue:

You should pray to the gods that the GM in question doesn't decide to GM a game of that.

[Cole10000]

I have returned,

WITH PIZZZA.

but seriously, I should be able to get a hold of him in a little bit here

but while we wait I remembered something else that screws me over on a regular basis.

Whenever i go to cast a spell he makes me roll a hundred die + my intelignce modifier*5.

This makes absolutely no freaking sense. one i'm a sorcerer my inteligence modifier shouldn't apply to my spellcasting, if anything it should be my charisma modifier.

and really what is the point of the hundred die, I mean he explained it as and I quote "It rolls to see if the spell actually works or not." What the crap.

then why the heck did i have to roll both a spellcraft and concentration check? i mean with all the restrictions he's put on spellcasting, it makes spellcasting almost completely useless.

so if anyone can make any kind of sense out of this please tell me.

[Gnaeus]

Ok first of all: What? Every DM i've ever played with has DMPC'd (Granted albeit weaker than the main party) the reason for this is so that he can lead us along to the next part of the game where the plot is going to take place, however most of our parties act as a form of democracy with the elected party leader actually leading us! if we disagree with the DMPC than thats fine and we can have a little side quest for us to get exp or gold or whatever but ultimately we're going to have to do the quest the Dmpc wants us to do (Otherwise its just us running around slaughtering every single dragon in creation) for example we get the options between

1. Foiling a religious cults movements
2. Taking down a band of thieves
3. performing a heist of a famous mages library for spells for our mage
4. taking down a dreaded dragons den of evil (or good sometimes)
5. Taking down an infamous Necromancer before he can complete his ritual that will turn him into a Lich (in this example this is the Dmpc's quest)

the DM does penalize us for doing the side quest. maybe the bad guy has some more minions or they have better weapons or there stronger either way its fine and we usually accept this knowing full well that the more we delay our conflict the stronger there going to get...

So are DMPC's a bad thing? No, not always as long as the DM uses them to pull the story along rather than just slaughter everything in the path of the players so they barely get exp or threaten them (which happened to our fine OP) however in some games the DM will make the DMPC stronger than everyone else only so that they can move the story along and the party can get more exp. I actually enjoy when the DM makes an DMPC so we know what to do in our quest and were not just running around blindly slaughtering everything that can give us exp...

TL;DR DMPC's help the story move along as long as the DM isn't a jerk about it making them only as strong as needed

That is some really lazy DMing. If you can't induce the party to go a certain direction without a guy with an obvious DM hat on his head pointing and saying go that way, you need to work on your storytelling skills a lot! Heck, most published modules are less railroding than that.

My opinions on DMPCs in general have been fully expressed and I do not care to repeat them today.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

so if anyone can make any kind of sense out of this please tell me.
You even read peoples posts? We all are saying that the DM is screwing you over. What else do you expect from us? Seriously. :smallannoyed:

BTW. I'm all for anything that makes casters less overpowered. :smalltongue:

[CTrees]

You're not playing anything close to D&D. Seriously. You aren't.

I really do want to know the results of an insistent demand to read the actual rules, though, after the results of this thread.

[Mystic Muse]

You even read peoples posts? We all are saying that the DM is screwing you over. What else do you expect from us? Seriously. :smallannoyed:

BTW. I'm all for anything that makes casters less overpowered. :smalltongue:

There's less overpowered, and then there's making them useless.

So, not only does he have to roll a check to see if the spell succeeds, he also has to roll a d100 or no apparent reason, and that's in addition to having to roll a d20 on any spell that requires an attack?

This isn't a problem with Sorcerers. This is a problem with your DM's arbitrary house rules.

[Greenish]

BTW. I'm all for anything that makes casters less overpowered. :smalltongue:Yeah, curse that Healer for being so ridiculously powerful! Damn Warmages should just be outright banned, since obviously all spellcasters are always ridiculously broken!

[Gnaeus]

BTW. I'm all for anything that makes casters less overpowered. :smalltongue:

Anything clearly stated in the rules beforehand. I mean arbitrarily having all monsters target casters until they are dead does make them less overpowered, but is neither fair nor fun.

[Alejandro]

The things the OP is saying his GM does sound so incredibly random and stupid, and worse every time, that I almost think the whole thing is a troll.

[Keld Denar]

d100 + 5x +Int mod is basically an Int check (1d20+Int). I'm not sure what DC you are rolling against, of if that DC is variable based on the level of the spell...but dang. So you need that, + a Concentration check + a Spellcraft check just to cast the spell, and then the spell has to WORK, which is generally 2/3 of a ranged touch, a save, or an SR check. Basically, your DM is introducing 3 additional points of failure to your ability to cast spells. Thats horribly restrictive. There are other ways of controlling spellcasters that don't involve nearly completely neutering them.

Seriously man, this guy doesn't like you and doesn't really want to be your friend. He just wants to see how much abuse you'll put up with before you quit. He is abusing you, and like many abuse victims, you are looking for something else to blame. Wake up.

Also, quoted for relevance:

Bite the DM as hard as you can. This may not solve any of your problems, but it will be highly satisfying.

[Alaris]

Being a Sorcerer isn't your problem. Your problem is using critical fumble rules.

...Magic Missile doesn't have an attack roll; you can't fumble with it. :smallconfused:

A lot of DMs use the "Rolling to Cast" rules. Sometimes it's rolling a Concentration Check, a Spellcraft Check, or just an overall Caster Level check.

My DM use this, and I use this as a DM. You roll a D20, and as long as you don't roll a 1, the spell will go off. This roll is also used to set the DC of the spell (D20+Spell Level + Relevant Ability Modifier). I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but it's not what this thread is about.

So yeah, I can understand it. However, generally I disagree with Critical Fumble rules for casting, UNLESS there is actually something interfering with your casting, which can force you to mess up that bad.

@OP: Yes, was kind of bull****. You shouldn't be able to blow your own arm off with a frickin' magic missile.

[Cole10000]

Yes, was kind of bull****. You shouldn't be able to blow your own arm off with a frickin' magic missile.


exactly what i said Alaris

[Calanon]

That is some really lazy DMing. If you can't induce the party to go a certain direction without a guy with an obvious DM hat on his head pointing and saying go that way, you need to work on your storytelling skills a lot! Heck, most published modules are less railroding than that.

My opinions on DMPCs in general have been fully expressed and I do not care to repeat them today.

The DM didn't want us to dictate us "Go that way now so the story can progress" thats so boring. Having a railroaded plot laid down and set in stone makes it so that your not really playing the character your just picking spells and moving for them. If a party moved down every single one way corridor than the campaign would just get predictable (One way hall way? Rouge checks for traps, Secluded Cave in the mountains? Wheres that paladin, just killed a Kobold? expect to be raided by more) if you can predict EVERYTHING that is going to happen in a game than its just pre-choreographer game play. Hell i remember one time my DM set up lever traps (unprotected lever? ITS A TRAP!) a save-or-die trap sprung, he expected us to survive (and we did) after climbing the ladder we were attacked by a hydra in the water surrounding us, the trap wasn't for us it was for anyone trying to release the hydra so we had to fight that (No way in hell...) we ran as fast as we could. The point is the DM gives us choices. walk down the scary corridor? or don't walk down the scary corridor. If you don't you probably won't get all the nifty rewards and such but atleast you'll be alive...

a DM who needs the players to move along a single plot isn't a good thing (God forbid they do something TOTALLY UNEXPECTED AND GAME BREAKING! than you need to wait 5 or so minutes to plan what to do next and slow down the pace of the game) a DM that is quick on there feet is better than a DM that needs to 5-25 minutes to plan for "omg he just disintegrated the door open!? i didn't see that coming!"

[Greenish]

This roll is also used to set the DC of the spell (D20+Spell Level + Relevant Ability Modifier). I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but it's not what this thread is about.The objection to that is that it basically amounts to nothing but extra rolling. You could have players roll all the rolls (player rolls for spell DC, monster has fixed save) or the current system and save yourself from the extra rolling.

5% spell failure chance isn't too unreasonable, as long as the spell in question is not expended by the failure, but I'd point out again that not all casters (and certainly not all characters who cast spells) are in need of a nerf.

[Cole10000]

ok im talking to him over a mic right now but he can't get to a comp.
according to him

concentration is the ability ito concentrate on attackng attacking a target,

spelcraft is your ability to conjure up said spell.

100 die is aparently his own personal spellchance failure

[Mystic Muse]

ok im talking to him over a mic right now but he can't get to a comp.
according to him

concentration is the ability ito concentrate on attackng attacking a target,

spelcraft is your ability to conjure up said spell.

100 die is aparently his own personal spellchance failure

Under certain circumstances, Concentration may be what it is he said. Is this a check you consistently have to make, or does it depend on your situation?

The other two rolls are just redundant, slow the game down, and make casters close to useless. Seriously.

[Cole10000]

constant when in combat, not when actually being attacked just in a combat situation,

and yes it takes forever for me to cast

[Safety Sword]

Please allow me to sum this thread up succinctly:

Your DM is a jerk who makes up his own rules on the fly and is literally out to kill your character because he thinks D&D is a game of DM vs PCs.

You're not having any fun because the "rules" he's using are all there to make it harder for the PCs to do anything without dying.

My suggestion, you'd be better off playing paintball. Or the My Little Pony board game.

[Mystic Muse]

constant when in combat, not when actually being attacked just in a combat situation,

and yes it takes forever for me to cast


You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

You only need to make concentration checks when it is something that would mess your casting up like a torrential downpour, a windstorm, or being attacked. Provoking an opportunity attack may screw the spell up, but you should not be constantly doing this in comment.

Dude, stop playing. The DM isn't being your friend, he is deliberately screwing you over by making you roll 3 completely pointless dice. What he says concentration is used for is nowhere in the description of the skill.Link for proof (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)

What he says Spellcraft is for isn't anywhere in the skill. Link for proof (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

Your DM is deliberately nerfing your character to near-uselessness.

[Knaight]

Ok first of all: What? Every DM i've ever played with has DMPC'd (Granted albeit weaker than the main party) the reason for this is so that he can lead us along to the next part of the game where the plot is going to take place, however most of our parties act as a form of democracy with the elected party leader actually leading us! if we disagree with the DMPC than thats fine and we can have a little side quest for us to get exp or gold or whatever but ultimately we're going to have to do the quest the Dmpc wants us to do (Otherwise its just us running around slaughtering every single dragon in creation) for example we get the options between...
Wow. Basically, what you are saying is that the only GMing you've seen is linear plot railroading, with the option to grind gold and experience. That's unfortunate. Its a valid play style, yes, but really, at least try a few others. Say, a player driven one, without "gold" or "exp" being significant focuses (though a greedy character who goes for wealth could make an exception in the first bit).

[Keld Denar]

concentration is the ability ito concentrate on attackng attacking a target,

spelcraft is your ability to conjure up said spell.

100 die is aparently his own personal spellchance failure

There already is a roll for attacking a target. Its called a ranged touch attack. Some spells require them. Some don't. If it doesn't require an attack roll, then it automatically hits (and the foe generally then gets a save to resist it).

The spellcraft roll and spellfailure rolls are just something he made up. Those don't exist ANYWHERE in the rules.

Seriously man, this guy is trolling you hard. He's making you uncomfortable, gleefully it sounds, and you keep putting up with it. Quit making excuses for him. He doesn't like you, and doesn't want you to have fun. Do you really want to be in a situation like that with someone who doesn't want you to have fun? Listen to what nearly EVERYBODY in this thread is telling you.

[Cole10000]

well it looks as though this entire thread has been rendered moot.

i tried chalenging him on the things and i basically got a lalalalalalalalalalalala im not listening.

well he didnt do exactly that but its basically what happened.

so i was just fed up and decided that i was done so i said i quit.

and guess what he ended the d&d game for everyone immeaditely. what the hell.

i mean yes im quitting and there might not be the exact amount of players you want anymore but that doesnt give him the right to end it for everyone, hell i even was talking to one of the other players at the same time with him.

now i kind of feel like an ******* because i ruined it for everyone, and hell i even tried apologiseing when i heard he was ending it for everyone, but nope he wasnt having it and hung up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

god i feel like a jerk right now, i just ruined months of work just because i was a litle frustrated about something.

hell i'd even try fixing it at this point but i know he isn't going to listen

[Hiro Protagonest]

now i kind of feel like an ******* because i ruined it for everyone, and hell i even tried apologiseing when i heard he was ending it for everyone, but nope he wasnt having it and hung up.

See, this is the point where you apologize to the other players before the DM tells them (or at least as soon as possible) and see if someone else can start a new game.

[Mystic Muse]

well it looks as though this entire thread has been rendered moot.

i tried chalenging him on the things and i basically got a lalalalalalalalalalalala im not listening.

well he didnt do exactly that but its basically what happened.

so i was just fed up and decided that i was done so i said i quit. Good move.



and guess what he ended the d&d game for everyone immeaditely. what the hell.

i mean yes im quitting and there might not be the exact amount of players you want anymore but that doesnt give him the right to end it for everyone, hell i even was talking to one of the other players at the same time with him.

now i kind of feel like an ******* because i ruined it for everyone, and hell i even tried apologiseing when i heard he was ending it for everyone, but nope he wasnt having it and hung up.

I'd probably feel the same way, but it's his fault, not yours. You weren't having fun and realized he was being an immature jerkwad so you quit. In response, he decided to boost the immaturity levels up to 11. The blame is on him, not you.

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, you are probably better off. How bad to things have to be before you put your foot down and say "I'd rather NOT do X than do X and be abused". That tingling feeling you feel, that is a spine, congratulations, you have one.

If you'd like to get more exposure to D&D, or RPing in general, check out our PbP boards, or look for a RL group near you. Gaming shops and universities are great places to look for other groups/players. Good luck, and I hope playing with this excuse for a person hasn't totally turned you off of our great hobby.

[Safety Sword]

Honestly, you are probably better off. How bad to things have to be before you put your foot down and say "I'd rather NOT do X than do X and be abused". That tingling feeling you feel, that is a spine, congratulations, you have one.

If you'd like to get more exposure to D&D, or RPing in general, check out our PbP boards, or look for a RL group near you. Gaming shops and universities are great places to look for other groups/players. Good luck, and I hope playing with this excuse for a person hasn't totally turned you off of our great hobby.

A new game is better than an old bad game :smallwink:

[Cole10000]

yeah i guess, again its just i didnt ruin it for just me i just ruined it for everyone who might've actually been enjoying it because i was unhappy with the spell system.

the fact i ruined it for everyone else is what i care about more here than anything.

edit: hell i was the one that even brought up the idea of doing a d&d game awhile after the dm had brought up he played before, but no when i get frustrated and dont want to play anymore its just nope we're done.

[Mystic Muse]

god i feel like a jerk right now, i just ruined months of work just because i was a little frustrated about something.


No, you did not.

You stopped doing something when you found out the DM was screwing you over, and you weren't having fun.

HE ended the game when ONE player decided he didn't like the way he was DMing and would rather do something else, and wouldn't even listen to why you didn't like it.

This is his fault, and his alone.

[Bovine Colonel]

So then start a new game without the jerkface DM.

[Keld Denar]

yeah i guess, again its just i didnt ruin it for just me i just ruined it for everyone who might've actually been enjoying it because i was unhappy with the spell system.

Incorrect. He ruined it. You didn't do anything wrong. And its not the system. Its your DM. The system is bad, but not THAT bad. Your DM's rules broke it. Its not your fault. Quit blaming yourself. Seriously.

[Psyren]

Your DM needs to grow up. You were fine.

[Acanous]

You should do a little dance. Don't apoligize to the DM, he was being a jerk.
Do apoligize to the other players and get them to start or join a new game, with a DM that actually follows Rules As Written.
Or at the very least informs you of houserules beforehand.

[Lord.Sorasen]

The objection to that is that it basically amounts to nothing but extra rolling. You could have players roll all the rolls (player rolls for spell DC, monster has fixed save) or the current system and save yourself from the extra rolling.

5% spell failure chance isn't too unreasonable, as long as the spell in question is not expended by the failure, but I'd point out again that not all casters (and certainly not all characters who cast spells) are in need of a nerf.

It amounts to a bit more than that. At low levels it amounts to a lot more.

Because typically in D&D3.5, when you make, say... An attack roll, you can get anywhere from 1-20. When both you and your target roll, there are suddenly two dice. Which means the variability goes way up. In short, results become significantly less consistent. The game becomes significantly less predictable. This tends to mess up the CR system (more than it already is), as more monsters means more rolls means the greater the chance of some wonky fluke.

[Alejandro]

Your GM killed the game because he realized that his scam was up; as soon as one player figures it out, the rest will. Honestly. Does he make the melee characters Concentrate successfully just to get a sword swing off? No? Then he's being an intentional **** to you, so he can always 'win'. Except tabletop RPGs aren't played to 'win.' They're played to have a fun, group social experience while arguing about monsters and robots and dragons.

The next step for you, if you like playing, is to join a different group, or form a new one, minus the assclown GM, and have a good time (after reading and knowing the game rules yourself!)

[Geigan]

Well it seems the guy wasn't cut out to be a DM if he can't take even a bit of criticism. Anyway, if you and your friends enjoyed the game it doesn't have to end here. You still have most of your group and could easily start a new game. Sit down and talk with the rest of the group and discuss how you want to continue and decide who should DM next. It's not that hard if you and your friends just want to have some fun.

Go read the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) and get a better grip on the rules minus the wonky houserules.

I'm sure you or anyone would do just as well or better, and I'm sure plenty of the people here would be willing to give you or any of your friends who asked advice on how to DM.:smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

I love playing a sorcerer. Wizards are fun when I want to play a scientist of magic, which believe me can be a fun role to play. But playing someone with charisma and zest, attributes I rather lack in real life believe it or not, is also a lot of fun.
Playing someone with charisma and zest who can blow up your face is even better.
Your problem, OP, isn't sorcerers. They are your DM with some nasty houserules.

[Calanon]

Wow. Basically, what you are saying is that the only GMing you've seen is linear plot railroading, with the option to grind gold and experience. That's unfortunate. Its a valid play style, yes, but really, at least try a few others. Say, a player driven one, without "gold" or "exp" being significant focuses (though a greedy character who goes for wealth could make an exception in the first bit).

Hmm I will admit to the greed part of it (Yes, we've dragged our heels getting to an actual mission but ultimately made the game a wee-bit more enjoyable from my perspective)

However to say that this is the only play style i'm familiar with is... well i feel a bit insulted :smallwink: I've been in games when the DM forces us into awkward positions and YES i will admit that i do enjoy trying to find a way out of those situations (and into another situation) I go to those DMs for a challange if i want to have fun with my friends we do it with a grind and exp style where we can freely roam the world

Its those DMs that impose ridiculous rules (roll a d100 + int*5 for example) that annoy me but i think thats just me being childish :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

Wait, why did you roll a d20 to cast Magic Missile? Were you casting defensively, or do raptors have SR I'm not aware of? Because if you were just casting defensively, rolling a one on a concentration check doesn't cause you to automatically fail or to fumble. It doesn't even always cause you to fail, though at 6th level I doubt you have a high enough modifier to auto-succeed on a check.

[Drelua]

Hmm I will admit to the greed part of it (Yes, we've dragged our heels getting to an actual mission but ultimately made the game a wee-bit more enjoyable from my perspective)

However to say that this is the only play style i'm familiar with is... well i feel a bit insulted :smallwink: I've been in games when the DM forces us into awkward positions and YES i will admit that i do enjoy trying to find a way out of those situations (and into another situation) I go to those DMs for a challange if i want to have fun with my friends we do it with a grind and exp style where we can freely roam the world

Its those DMs that impose ridiculous rules (roll a d100 + int*5 for example) that annoy me but i think thats just me being childish :smallbiggrin:

The one thing about this that bugs me is the DMPC always knowing where you need to go. It sounds like it can either be a sandbox-style game or one in which the plot progresses, and the DMPC has some magical insight into where you need to go, but I could easily be wrong. Personally, I don't have anything against DMPCs, since I'm usually in very small groups with as few as 3 people, DM included, so we need a DMPC to cover all the roles we need covered. Of course, if you've seen some of my earlier posts, you know I have much bigger issues to worry about with my DM, not the least of which is his...minimal system knowledge, to put it lightly.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Wait, why did you roll a d20 to cast Magic Missile? Were you casting defensively, or do raptors have SR I'm not aware of? Because if you were just casting defensively, rolling a one on a concentration check doesn't cause you to automatically fail or to fumble. It doesn't even always cause you to fail, though at 6th level I doubt you have a high enough modifier to auto-succeed on a check.
:smallsigh:
It was already established that his DM was a douche who either doesn't know the rules or houserules just to screw him.

[noparlpf]

:smallsigh:
It was already established that his DM was a douche who either doesn't know the rules or houserules just to screw him.

Yeah, I need to stop responding to OPs without at least skimming other posts first.

Also, I love your sig. I watched that series over the summer.

[Calanon]

The one thing about this that bugs me is the DMPC always knowing where you need to go. It sounds like it can either be a sandbox-style game or one in which the plot progresses, and the DMPC has some magical insight into where you need to go, but I could easily be wrong.

We usually tell the DM to not tell us anything. He can command the DMPC and tell give us a single quest (I.e. the storyline) but nothing more we usually ask that the DM not play a class that can scry... because thats just asking for abuse xD


Personally, I don't have anything against DMPCs, since I'm usually in very small groups with as few as 3 people, DM included, so we need a DMPC to cover all the roles we need covered. Of course, if you've seen some of my earlier posts, you know I have much bigger issues to worry about with my DM, not the least of which is his...minimal system knowledge, to put it lightly.

Oh no i understand your perspective and i respect it completely. I've had a DM before that barely understood the system. after the game we talked to him about his inexperience and we decided to have someone else be the DM and that we could play his campaign another day, He was a little depressed but when he started playing with another of our friends games he found that he really liked being a PC rather than having to come up with monsters that are just going to die, creating villains with recurring themes, or setting up dungeons for Players to burn through in an hour (Personally i like making super dungeons :smallwink:)

[Mad Gene Vane]

Invisibility is a level 1 spell. You'd have it far, far before flight.

If it isn't one of the 4 or 5 or whatever 1st level spells known by a 6th level Sorcerer, it doesn't do him much good, unless he has a scroll he can cast from.

Spontaneous casting, with a limited number of known spells, has its drawbacks.

[TOZ]

yeah i guess, again its just i didnt ruin it for just me i just ruined it for everyone who might've actually been enjoying it because i was unhappy with the spell system.

the fact i ruined it for everyone else is what i care about more here than anything.

edit: hell i was the one that even brought up the idea of doing a d&d game awhile after the dm had brought up he played before, but no when i get frustrated and dont want to play anymore its just nope we're done.

I need to point out that you are sounding like a battered housewife.

"I said I don't want to play anymore and got the game canceled, I'm a horrible person."

versus

"I said I don't want to play anymore and got punched, I'm a horrible person."

The guilt is not yours, and anyone that even tries to say you are at fault is tremendously wrong.

I have my own example of a bad DM that is quite similar to your own story. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49992)

Fixed link. Thanks Gavinfoxx.

[Gavinfoxx]

toz: you forgot the www.

[Acanous]

If it isn't one of the 4 or 5 or whatever 1st level spells known by a 6th level Sorcerer, it doesn't do him much good, unless he has a scroll he can cast from.

Spontaneous casting, with a limited number of known spells, has its drawbacks.

Which is why people advocate Wizard over Sorceror. But yeah.

[Eisirt]

There is no concentration check involved in casting magic missile.

There is no spell craft check involved in casting magic missile.

Magic missile is an auto-hit spell. You do not need to roll to hit with it, it just hits and deals damage. That's the entire point of the spell. There should not be any d20 rolling involved in the casting of the spell, because it is not a spell you can fumble.

This has nothing to do with being a sorcerer. This has everything to do with your ranger threatening to shoot you down, and your DM using house rules that screw you over.

Even ignoring all this, you cannot "Fumble" a skill check. Skill checks do not automatically fail on 1s.

There are concentration checks if he is threatened and casting defensively, but your point about the no-fumble on skill checks still stands.... Use Magical Device excepted ofcourse.

[Mystic Muse]

There are concentration checks if he is threatened and casting defensively, but your point about the no-fumble on skill checks still stands.... Use Magical Device excepted ofcourse.

Yeah. I meant as a general rule, though I could have said it better.

[Killer Angel]

so i was just fed up and decided that i was done so i said i quit.

and guess what he ended the d&d game for everyone immeaditely.


Bad Cole10k!
You should have warned us, that your DM was a 5 years old capricious child.

[SiuiS]

There is no concentration check involved in casting magic missile.

There is no spell craft check involved in casting magic missile.

Magic missile is an auto-hit spell. You do not need to roll to hit with it, it just hits and deals damage. That's the entire point of the spell. There should not be any d20 rolling involved in the casting of the spell, because it is not a spell you can fumble.

This has nothing to do with being a sorcerer. This has everything to do with your ranger threatening to shoot you down, and your DM using house rules that screw you over.

Even ignoring all this, you cannot "Fumble" a skill check. Skill checks do not automatically fail on 1s.

It's been said to death, but this bears repeating.


ok to everyone first off, i apologise for my hard to read posts.

Ok here's where this gets tricky, when this friend of mine sets his mind on something he usually doesnt change it.

If i tell him i want him to register just so i can have other people tell him he's wrong he probobly won't do it.

again with the situation, it's freaking hard for me to understand as i havent been able to look at the rulebook.

it's my first time playing by these rules as well.

while he has sort of screwed me over at times he has helped me out, but even so i perosonally think he's trolling me a bit for bitching at him about the dieing offscreen thing.

That's an understandable reaction. I wouldn't want to join a forum just to be told I was wrong. I probably would, because I like debating my side of thugs, but putting it that way is... Just asking to remove any credibility.



dos. i an in fact new to d&d in of itself

so when i heard all of these rules being explained i took them for standard.

the dm is actually the only one who has had prior experience with d&d

assume when your talking about something here that you feel is common knowledge assume i dont know,

because i probobly don't

Ok, that's fine.

Casting a spell is almost effortless. On your turn, you say "I cast this spell" and unless something stops you, you automatically succeed.

An enemy monster who is close enough can attack you when you start to cast a spell. This is called an attack of opportunity and is abbreviated as AoO. If the monster hits, there is a chance of your spell failing.
You then make a concentration check and if you succeed, the spell goes off. If you fail, then the spell does nothing but you sill lose that spell slot.

You can make a concentration skill check to cast defensively, and ifyou roll 15 or higher, the monsters don't get to make attacks of opportunity.

If you do not move in any other way on your turn, you can take a five foot step. Normally, moving away from a monster can provoke an AoO (attack of opportunity) but a five foot step does not. And a five foot step is almost free; you can still do all your other actions in that round. You just can't move until next round.

Fumble rules are NOT a normal part of Dungeons and Dragons. They are bad math, and Are guaranteed to mess up the players more than the monsters.
Also is the idea of confirmation. When you roll a 20, it's not automatically a critical hit. You have to roll again to make sure it is, and if the second roll succeeds, then it's a critical hit.

So why would a failure automatically be a critical failure? You should have to confirm that too, and if the second roll succeeds then it is a regular failure, not a critical failure.

Finally, only attacks and saving throws use the critical rule. If you roll a 20 on an attack you always hit the target. If you roll a 1 on an attack you always miss. Same with saving throws. Disarming is a type of attack roll, by the way.

Skill checks, level checks, ability checks, and such DO NOT automatically fail on a 1. A skilled enough character can roll a 1 on his climb check and not fall off of a building.

Your DM was obviously adding rules, which is fine. Except the raged and the cleric were both spell casters. Did they ever fumble? Did the cleric ever accidentally kill someone because he fumbled a heal spell?

The arrest sign of a bad rule is one that isn't fairly implemented. If the rule only targets players and not NPCS & monsters, the DM is being unfair.




and lastly

i am a true neutral sorcerer and the only reasons he hasnt killed the ranger chick

is one guilt, and two she'd probobly kick his ass she is really friggin overpowered imho.

around the dmpc thing, its kind of understandable because of the backstory

even though i didnt pick this as part of my backstory he just added it in
without my approval to my backstory which kind of pissed me off.

There is a special attack action that takes a full-round action to do, which means you can't do anything else that round at all. It also provokes an AoO, but it is often worth it. It is called a coup-de-grace (pronounced kind of like "coo duh graws") and what it does is this;

If you use a coup-de-grace against a helpless opponent (such as when they are sleeping) then you automatically hit them (without an attack roll) and it is automatically a critical hit (without having to make a confirmation roll). And if the damage doesn't kill your target, they have to make a fortitude save, with a Difficulty Class, or DC, of 10+ the damage you did with the critical. If they fail this saving throw, they die, even if the damage isn't enough to kill them. Even of your sorcerer can't use them, you should carry a 1-handed axe or pick because they have a high critical multiplier. The critical multiplier is the number you multiply your damage by on a critical hit. A sword does double damage, an axe does triple damage; a pick does four times as much damage as normal! If you have a strength score higher than 13, you also get more damage for using the weapon with two hands.

A heavy pick is a 1-handed martial weapon (martial is a class of weapon; there are simple, martial and exotic. Martial are stronger weapons but can only be used well by fighting classes like fighter and barbarians, without a feat). As a sorcerer you take a -4 to hit because you aren't proficient with - that is, your class cannot ordinarily use - martial weapons. But the coup-de-grace is an automatic hit so it doesn't matter. With a +2 strength bonus, you get [1d6 (weapon damage) + 2 (strength bonus) + 1 (half of your strength bonus again, for using two hands)] x 4; or 4d6+12. This does 16 to 36 damage, and that means the Fortitude save to survive it is 26-46! That's a lot, and in most cases, only a 20 on the saving throw will let you live.

This is why fighting with other party members is bad; when you go to wake up the ranger for her turn at night watch, you could just kill her instead. And the DM can't say she wakes up first, because if she wakes up just by you walking up, you wouldn't have to wake her up ;3


well it looks as though this entire thread has been rendered moot.

i tried chalenging him on the things and i basically got a lalalalalalalalalalalala im not listening.

well he didnt do exactly that but its basically what happened.

so i was just fed up and decided that i was done so i said i quit.

and guess what he ended the d&d game for everyone immeaditely. what the hell.

i mean yes im quitting and there might not be the exact amount of players you want anymore but that doesnt give him the right to end it for everyone, hell i even was talking to one of the other players at the same time with him.

now i kind of feel like an ******* because i ruined it for everyone, and hell i even tried apologiseing when i heard he was ending it for everyone, but nope he wasnt having it and hung up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

god i feel like a jerk right now, i just ruined months of work just because i was a litle frustrated about something.

hell i'd even try fixing it at this point but i know he isn't going to listen

This isn't your fault, friend. That's emotional manipulation, and that's not right.
The DM is trying to force you into a bad position. He is throwing a tantrum, and I am sorry you have to go through it.

In the end though, the DM felt that the only way to 'win' was to blackmail you and make you look like he bad guy. That's not a good sin, and proof that in he end he was being mean the whole time.


No, you did not.

You stopped doing something when you found out the DM was screwing you over, and you weren't having fun.

HE ended the game when ONE player decided he didn't like the way he was DMing and would rather do something else, and wouldn't even listen to why you didn't like it.

This is his fault, and his alone.

This, this is true.

-

Here is what you do, friend. You read the d20 system resource document (http://www.d20srd.org), learn the rules, and show them to all of your other friends who played. And then...

You start a game! Be the DM. It's not too hard to start out, and you can even restart the game the other DM forced everyone to quit. Ask him what the basic plot was, and invite him to play to show there are no hard feelings.

Or just start a new game. Have everyone make characters, and then tell them something like " you were hired to find the lost Tomb of Derek the Red. While marching through the swamp you fall into a cave! What do you do?"

I think you will find the experience very enlightening. And I'd you keep the same characters, then after every adventure you can have a different friend be DM. The best way to learn is by trying, and letting everypony have a turn in the DM chair is rather fun and zany.

Just my two bits though.

[Bovine Colonel]

It's been said to death, but this bears repeating.



That's an understandable reaction. I wouldn't want to join a forum just to be told I was wrong. I probably would, because I like debating my side of thugs, but putting it that way is... Just asking to remove any credibility.



Ok, that's fine.

Casting a spell is almost effortless. On your turn, you say "I cast this spell" and unless something stops you, you automatically succeed.

An enemy monster who is close enough can attack you when you start to cast a spell. This is called an attack of opportunity and is abbreviated as AoO. If the monster hits, there is a chance of your spell failing.
You then make a concentration check and if you succeed, the spell goes off. If you fail, then the spell does nothing but you sill lose that spell slot.

You can make a concentration skill check to cast defensively, and ifyou roll 15 or higher, the monsters don't get to make attacks of opportunity.

If you do not move in any other way on your turn, you can take a five foot step. Normally, moving away from a monster can provoke an AoO (attack of opportunity) but a five foot step does not. And a five foot step is almost free; you can still do all your other actions in that round. You just can't move until next round.

Fumble rules are NOT a normal part of Dungeons and Dragons. They are bad math, and Are guaranteed to mess up the players more than the monsters.
Also is the idea of confirmation. When you roll a 20, it's not automatically a critical hit. You have to roll again to make sure it is, and if the second roll succeeds, then it's a critical hit.

So why would a failure automatically be a critical failure? You should have to confirm that too, and if the second roll succeeds then it is a regular failure, not a critical failure.

Finally, only attacks and saving throws use the critical rule. If you roll a 20 on an attack you always hit the target. If you roll a 1 on an attack you always miss. Same with saving throws. Disarming is a type of attack roll, by the way.

Skill checks, level checks, ability checks, and such DO NOT automatically fail on a 1. A skilled enough character can roll a 1 on his climb check and not fall off of a building.

Your DM was obviously adding rules, which is fine. Except the raged and the cleric were both spell casters. Did they ever fumble? Did the cleric ever accidentally kill someone because he fumbled a heal spell?

The arrest sign of a bad rule is one that isn't fairly implemented. If the rule only targets players and not NPCS & monsters, the DM is being unfair.




There is a special attack action that takes a full-round action to do, which means you can't do anything else that round at all. It also provokes an AoO, but it is often worth it. It is called a coup-de-grace (pronounced kind of like "coo duh graws") and what it does is this;

If you use a coup-de-grace against a helpless opponent (such as when they are sleeping) then you automatically hit them (without an attack roll) and it is automatically a critical hit (without having to make a confirmation roll). And if the damage doesn't kill your target, they have to make a fortitude save, with a Difficulty Class, or DC, of 10+ the damage you did with the critical. If they fail this saving throw, they die, even if the damage isn't enough to kill them. Even of your sorcerer can't use them, you should carry a 1-handed axe or pick because they have a high critical multiplier. The critical multiplier is the number you multiply your damage by on a critical hit. A sword does double damage, an axe does triple damage; a pick does four times as much damage as normal! If you have a strength score higher than 13, you also get more damage for using the weapon with two hands.

A heavy pick is a 1-handed martial weapon (martial is a class of weapon; there are simple, martial and exotic. Martial are stronger weapons but can only be used well by fighting classes like fighter and barbarians, without a feat). As a sorcerer you take a -4 to hit because you aren't proficient with - that is, your class cannot ordinarily use - martial weapons. But the coup-de-grace is an automatic hit so it doesn't matter. With a +2 strength bonus, you get [1d6 (weapon damage) + 2 (strength bonus) + 1 (half of your strength bonus again, for using two hands)] x 4; or 4d6+12. This does 16 to 36 damage, and that means the Fortitude save to survive it is 26-46! That's a lot, and in most cases, only a 20 on the saving throw will let you live.

This is why fighting with other party members is bad; when you go to wake up the ranger for her turn at night watch, you could just kill her instead. And the DM can't say she wakes up first, because if she wakes up just by you walking up, you wouldn't have to wake her up ;3



This isn't your fault, friend. That's emotional manipulation, and that's not right.
The DM is trying to force you into a bad position. He is throwing a tantrum, and I am sorry you have to go through it.

In the end though, the DM felt that the only way to 'win' was to blackmail you and make you look like he bad guy. That's not a good sin, and proof that in he end he was being mean the whole time.



This, this is true.

-

Here is what you do, friend. You read the d20 system resource document (http://www.d20srd.org), learn the rules, and show them to all of your other friends who played. And then...

You start a game! Be the DM. It's not too hard to start out, and you can even restart the game the other DM forced everyone to quit. Ask him what the basic plot was, and invite him to play to show there are no hard feelings.

Or just start a new game. Have everyone make characters, and then tell them something like " you were hired to find the lost Tomb of Derek the Red. While marching through the swamp you fall into a cave! What do you do?"

I think you will find the experience very enlightening. And I'd you keep the same characters, then after every adventure you can have a different friend be DM. The best way to learn is by trying, and letting everypony have a turn in the DM chair is rather fun and zany.

Just my two bits though.

This. So, so much this. Thank you, SiuiS.

[Cole10000]

well thanks to everyone for your advice.

I have been reading up on the rules as well as being able to get my hands on a DM handbook for 3.5e.

Im planning on talking to the other players, even the previous DM to see if they'd like to play a game where im DM and where we'd play under 3.5e rules.

I have a campaign in mind already, but first i'm planning on doing a one shot quest.

If the quest goes well i'll think about doing the campaign

If anyone has anyadvice for an aspiring DM it would be greatly apreciated, thank you.

[Alejandro]

well thanks to everyone for your advice.

I have been reading up on the rules as well as being able to get my hands on a DM handbook for 3.5e.

Im planning on talking to the other players, even the previous DM to see if they'd like to play a game where im DM and where we'd play under 3.5e rules.

I have a campaign in mind already, but first i'm planning on doing a one shot quest.

If the quest goes well i'll think about doing the campaign

If anyone has anyadvice for an aspiring DM it would be greatly apreciated, thank you.

First piece of advice: The part I bolded? Absolutely don't do that part. I promise you, the guy will be just as much of a jerk to you as a player, as he was as GM. Instead of being able to pick on you with godlike impunity, he will be able to disrupt the whole game in myriad ways and then say "I'm just playing my character" smugly to you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

First piece of advice: The part I bolded? Absolutely don't do that part. I promise you, the guy will be just as much of a jerk to you as a player, as he was as GM. Instead of being able to pick on you with godlike impunity, he will be able to disrupt the whole game in myriad ways and then say "I'm just playing my character" smugly to you.

Yep. An olive branch might be good later. And by later I mean a couple of years. But now? No way.

[Eshi]

I have my own example of a bad DM that is quite similar to your own story. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49992)I will never understand how some people can muster up so much civility for such a stuck-up prick as this. Or the OP's DM.

[Yahzi]

Every DM i've ever played with has DMPC'd (Granted albeit weaker than the main party) the reason for this is so that he can lead us along to the next part of the game where the plot is going to take place,
That reason you cited as why DMPCs are OK? That's the very reason I was going to use to show why they aren't OK. :smallbiggrin:


we're going to have to do the quest the Dmpc wants us to do
Not true. There is a much better quest you can set yourself too. It's much harder, but it is vastly more rewarding. Your new quest is to kill the DMPC.

As Vangor said, DMPCs are not always bad, in the same way hydrochloric acid is not always bad. One good test is to kill the DMPC. If you can do that, and the DM is cool with it, then the DM can run DMPCs.

the DM does penalize us for doing the side quest.
Different people have different play styes. I run a sand-box game; that is, I create a world, you create a character, and then I say, "What do you do now?"

Other people like to build a railroad and then hire bandits to force people onto the train and kill them if they look out the windows. You know. Just a little difference of opinion. :smallbiggrin:


the more we delay our conflict the stronger there going to get...
Actually, that's a good thing. Your poor DM sounds like he wants to run a sandbox game, but his players don't. That's the opposite of the usual case!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not true. There is a much better quest you can set yourself too. It's much harder, but it is vastly more rewarding. Your new quest is to kill the DMPC.

As Vangor said, DMPCs are not always bad, in the same way hydrochloric acid is not always bad. One good test is to kill the DMPC. If you can do that, and the DM is cool with it, then the DM can run DMPCs.

It's not unreasonable to say that all good-aligned characters are now neutral, and one more act like that makes you evil. Unless he brings in another DMPC, then you have fun with your evil campaign. A better idea is to knock him out and leave him there while you teleport or use Haste on everyone then run at your boosted speed or whatever.

[Steward]

Not true. There is a much better quest you can set yourself too. It's much harder, but it is vastly more rewarding. Your new quest is to kill the DMPC.

This is a game where the DM forces the player to roll a Spellcraft check to cast 'mage armor' and if it fails, his clothes vanish. Do you really think he wouldn't cheat to protect his DMPC? I agree that that would be a good acid test for DMPCs in general but if you're getting to the point where a DM is abusing his power in pretty much every aspect of the game it's probably too late to try an in-game solution.

[Dimers]

a giant flaming douchewaffle

*snerk guffaw giggle snarf* Oh, the mental image! :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

With Maple Syrup

[CTrees]

With Maple Syrup

Artificial maple syrup :smallfurious:

[elvengunner69]

I actually realized he was playing with a bad DM as soon as I heard this one word....

Raptors...

They are fine in Jurassic Park but not in D&D /just saying.

Keep Dinosaurs out of your game!!! :smallsmile:

[MeeposFire]

I would recommend if you have enough players to get them to all play without the DM guy to see how it goes and so you can make a good rapport with the group. If the DM is really interested you might want to talk to the other players and see what they think. Otherwise wait a little bit before bringing back the old DM guy. Last thing you want is to have trouble when you restart the game.

[Jude_H]

They are fine in Jurassic Park but not in D&D /just saying.
Don't ever open an Eberron book. Seriously.

[MeeposFire]

Don't ever open an Eberron book. Seriously.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSyiX5DzwJke2FEE2jkvliwnhYTY15c bqmFpI3dnNotRHj3BvjGA

I heart Eberron.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2orFWHtz3lgp26Q274EAArQelvvTVq EnaBph4ol02G7PpbJwS7g

[SiuiS]

This. So, so much this. Thank you, SiuiS.

My pleasure. It's always nice to be able to help out a poor gamer before they become jaded and mean. I was that way once, and I still relapse. I'd love to spare folks that sort of living.


well thanks to everyone for your advice.

I have been reading up on the rules as well as being able to get my hands on a DM handbook for 3.5e.

Im planning on talking to the other players, even the previous DM to see if they'd like to play a game where im DM and where we'd play under 3.5e rules.

I have a campaign in mind already, but first i'm planning on doing a one shot quest.

If the quest goes well i'll think about doing the campaign

If anyone has anyadvice for an aspiring DM it would be greatly apreciated, thank you.

Expectations are the very first thing you need to work on. They are a good habit to get into for all of your games, but these first two especially. You want to make several things clear;

this is a training game. You won't know all the rules, and sometimes you just won't read them right.

we are hear to learn, but also play. If something happens that makes an argument come up, discuss it. But set a time limit; say, you have two minutes to make your case. If you can't convince me (the DM) in that time, then please wait until after the game, and we can talk it out then. That way the game won't grind to a stand still.

character requirements. It's often good to lay out a groundwork for what you are comfortable with. Saying "no evil characters" is fine. You can even say things like "one of you has to be a fighter" or "someone has to be related to the Duke of Ingwal". This way no one can accidentally mess up your game.
This is also a protection clause; tell the players that, if their actions are evil, the character won't do that action. This is not something to do very often, but if a player decides to screw up the game, you have already laid down the law that you will retcon it. Much better than doing so without hem already knowing it.
Finally, all the players agreed to these requirements before playing. So if someone is a real jerk, you can throw them out and say "I told you what we were doing. If that's not what you want to play, then don't play. But don't mess it up for everyone else."

Last,
These rules apply to everybody, not just players. Don't change rules without telling the players. If there are no evil PCs, don't make an evil DMPC.
Don't make a DMPC at all. Thy are very hard to play without ruining everyone else's fun. Don't use a fumble chart for PCs without making your NPCs use it as well. Though I would say definitely DO NOT use a fumble chart, period.


I also suggest you allow your old DM to play in this first quest you designed. That way you can see if he will be a good player or a jerk BEFORE he is already part of the campaign.


I actually realized he was playing with a bad DM as soon as I heard this one word....

Raptors...

They are fine in Jurassic Park but not in D&D /just saying.

Keep Dinosaurs out of your game!!! :smallsmile:

My first clue was 'fumble'. No word is more deleterious to playing than fumble.

[TOZ]

I will never understand how some people can muster up so much civility for such a stuck-up prick as this. Or the OP's DM.

Mostly so I don't drop to his level. I like to do my best to be the better person. I do fail sometimes, as that thread shows.

[Elboxo]

Being in a campaign with Crit fumble tables should be what angers you.

We have crit fumbles and it's hilarious, we recently had our party rogue shoot himself in the mouth with a bow and our engineer ( homebrew ) always plays melee classes, it also seems the more likely it is for him to crit on any of his characters, the less it happens. When it DOES happen he crits himself. His last character, a warblade died because it critical failed *Twice* getting 2d6 str/con damage and then breaking his ankle. The ogre bopped him on the head and he was done, he'd already been mugged after critical failing and throwing his heavy greatsword 50 feet ..... The other times he crits he nearly kills us.... the DM recently made 1's not automatic fails because it was getting out of hand, now we roll crit chances after that, and a low roll ( I think it's below our AC or it's just a 50/50 chance, not sure ) means we get a crit fail, then we roll the d% to see what happens, it's much more fun than just "You hurt yourself, dummy"

But it can get a tad weird when it happens to casters using rays or something, but if we get an unreasonable crit like throw weapon away, the DM usually gets us to roll again or miss/lose the spell (Concentration check )

[2xMachina]

RE: Fumble

It depends if you like slapstick. If you do, it's hilarious. If you don't, it's annoying like hell.

Personally, I prefer not to play a clown campaign.

[candycorn]

ok so i think you guys might be getting the wrong impression of my gm here he's a cool guy and a friend of mine.
First: cool guy, and good guy, do not always translate to "good DM".

I have several friends that I would smack if they tried to sit behind the DM screen. It's not that I don't like them. It's that I don't like games they run.

yeah what he said i mean before hand the dm said he was intentionally prepareing to deal with my flying ( translation, make it useless )Neutering player abilities without reason.


Ok here's where this gets tricky, when this friend of mine sets his mind on something he usually doesnt change it.Does not accept feedback.

while he has sort of screwed me over at times he has helped me out, but even so i perosonally think he's trolling me a bit for bitching at him about the dieing offscreen thing.
Kills characters offscreen.
Kills characters through critical fumbles.
Trolls characters in game for personal frustration out of game.

These are the mark of someone who detracts from the fun experience of his players, and lacks the neutrality required for being a good DM.

He may be great at parties, or an awesome guy who helps on moving day, or any of the other qualities that make for a great friend.

But he is lacking the qualities that make for a great GM.

[Gnaeus]

First: cool guy, and good guy, do not always translate to "good DM".

I have several friends that I would smack if they tried to sit behind the DM screen. It's not that I don't like them. It's that I don't like games they run.
Neutering player abilities without reason.

Quoted for truth. There are lots of people that are good friends that I don't want running games, some of them I don't want to play RPGs with at all.

Conversely, I know a few people who are EXCELLENT gamers, who I would always be glad to meet in character or behind the DM screen, who I don't much like personally.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

@ OP
you think of him as a good friend. But you should ask yourself: Does he think the same about you?

[CTrees]

RE: Fumble

It depends if you like slapstick. If you do, it's hilarious. If you don't, it's annoying like hell.

Personally, I prefer not to play a clown campaign.

This.

Elboxo? Apparently loves his game. From the sounds of it - from his examples of how crit fumbles are awesome - I can tell I would hate it. I'll play Toon if I want slapstick. Oh wait, I don't play Toon.

[elvengunner69]

Don't ever open an Eberron book. Seriously.

Damn I'm reading some now - no Dino's yet though. I always wanted to be a half-halfling. Kind of like this: http://www.joannagaskell.com/standardaction/?p=299 :smallbiggrin:

[Cole10000]

Well thanks for everyone's input once again. it's been a great help.

first off im going to start everyone at level 6, whatever class/race they want.

i've decided that in the campaign I'm running i won't have fumbles. While we did get a few yucks out of them, namely when the gnome archer killed himself when he shot himself in the foot.

Personally it just wasnt worth the frustration and how much it screwed me over on a regular basis.

but now actually down to the test quest i'm doing.

They're after an artifact in an undiscovered hidden room of a remote abandoned castle.

Main problem when they get there it's occupied by around a 20 so bandits.

i have it set up so there are about five ways for them to get in.

1.Batter down the gate and charge in by themselves
2.Sneak in by climbing the walls at night
3.Use a secret entrance they find out about if they talk to local townsfolk.
4.use a cave network that has two juvenile giant spiders living in it that they again find out from the townsfolk
5.rally the townsfolk to attack the bandits,

i'm still debating this but would around 20 level 1 warrior mooks, with about three higher level ones, be too much.

The group would be able to avoid them if they're carefull, even if they're found they could still just use a multitude of 5ft by 5ft hallways as a choke point for them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Be prepared for alchemist's fire, too.

[2xMachina]

Do you know about CR?

A lvl 6 party of 4 is expected to beat 3 or 4 CR6 encounters a day.

When you double the amount of opponents, the CR increases by 1.

Note that the D&D CR is not always accurate.

While 20 lvl 1 mooks seems like a lot (about CR 4/5 if they all come together), they die pretty quickly, causing the CR to drop pretty fast.

And having 20 opponents in a fight is rather troublesome. There's also the problem of them having the action economy advantage (sometimes can overwhelm a PC), and all the rolling/tracking needed will slow down the game badly.

It depends on the optimization though. A weak party may not be able to handle as much as a fully optimized party.

Taking in mind that I've never DM'ed...
I suggest going for safety first (under CR), then tune it back up slowly when they can handle it.
Maybe a squad of a CR4 leader supported by 5 of your warriors for an encounter. Have a max of 3/4 of these squads?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Do you know about CR?

A lvl 6 party of 4 is expected to beat 3 or 4 CR6 encounters a day.

When you double the amount of opponents, the CR increases by 1.

Note that the D&D CR is not always accurate.

While 20 lvl 1 mooks seems like a lot (about CR 4/5 if they all come together), they die pretty quickly, causing the CR to drop pretty fast.

And having 20 opponents in a fight is rather troublesome. There's also the problem of them having the action economy advantage (sometimes can overwhelm a PC), and all the rolling/tracking needed will slow down the game badly.

It depends on the optimization though. A weak party may not be able to handle as much as a fully optimized party.

Taking in mind that I've never DM'ed...
I suggest going for safety first (under CR), then tune it back up slowly when they can handle it.
Maybe a squad of a CR4 leader supported by 5 of your warriors for an encounter. Have a max of 3/4 of these squads?

Yeah. 20 level 1s tend to die pretty fast from AoEs like fireball.

[Drelua]

If you think keeping track of everything in combat is going to be a problem, try using Combat Manager (http://combatmanager.com/). It's meant for Pathfinder, but you can ignore the monster customization and stuff, and just use it for the dice roller and to keep track of initiative order and hit point totals. My DM always uses it and it really helps keep combat flowing.

[Jude_H]

I've had an easier time with mass combat when I divide groups into subgroups of 4-5 units.

"The goblin archers behind the wall" might be one subgroup, "those goblins with spears on the cliff's edge" might be another. The different groups are homogeneous in stats, they act together in initiative and movement, they roll attacks, skills and saves as single rolls. The only things tracked separately are HP, positions and niche partial-group conditions (maybe only several are caught in a Stinking Cloud or similar).

It messes with some metagame functions of crowd-control spells, but it makes battles with 15-25 opponents feasible without being as much of a slog.

[NNescio]

Do you know about CR?

A lvl 6 party of 4 is expected to beat 3 or 4 CR6 encounters a day.

When you double the amount of opponents, the CR increases by 1.

Note that the D&D CR is not always accurate.

+2, actually. Still, the CR system is remarkably inaccurate.