This Spell Is The Wrong Level

[thompur]

I was reading up on Sorcerer/Wizard spells, putting some into 'sorcerer only' and 'wizard only' lists, when I realized that, for a 3rd level spell, Flame Arrow is kind of weak, and for a first level spell, Color Spray is rather powerful. I think they would both fit better into 2nd level.
Then I started to think about Grease, and its potential to affect a battle. But upping its level seemed...a bit silly. After all, in terms of in-game logic, making something slippery is pretty basic, almost cantrip-like. So I conclude that Grease is in the right place.

So I ask the playground at large; what spells, if any, do you think should be lower level than they are, and which higher.

[dextercorvia]

I was reading up on Sorcerer/Wizard spells, putting some into 'sorcerer only' and 'wizard only' lists, when I realized that, for a 3rd level spell, Flame Arrow is kind of weak, and for a first level spell, Color Spray is rather powerful. I think they would both fit better into 2nd level.
Then I started to think about Grease, and its potential to affect a battle. But upping its level seemed...a bit silly. After all, in terms of in-game logic, making something slippery is pretty basic, almost cantrip-like. So I conclude that Grease is in the right place.

So I ask the playground at large; what spells, if any, do you think should be lower level than they are, and which higher.

Remember Color Spray has a HD cap for its best effect. It would make a very weak 2nd level spell.

Edit: Power Word: Pain is strong for 1st level.

[Calanon]

Idk what you just said but i believe mindrape should be a 1st level spell :3

ANYWAY joking aside:

Animate Dead NEVER made sense to me as a 4th lvl spell >_> (and the material component cost? {{scrubbed}}) It would be better as a lower level spell (Maybe 2nd or 3rd but 4th!?) and for Thor's sake remove the material cost! (25gp for something your just going to throw away later... {{scrubbed}})

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

4 angry faces for this god awful spell (Although i love it...)

[NeoSeraphi]

Idk what you just said but i believe mindrape should be a 1st level spell :3

ANYWAY joking aside:

Animate Dead NEVER made sense to me as a 4th lvl spell >_> (and the material component cost? fk that shyt...) It would be better as a lower level spell (Maybe 2nd or 3rd but 4th!?) and for Thor's sake remove the material cost! (25gp for something your just going to throw away later... yeah fk that shyt...)

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

4 angry faces for this god awful spell (Although i love it...)

See, the problem here isn't that the spell level is too high, it's that you're playing the wrong class. You should be playing a death mage (Dragon Compendium) which has animate dead as a second-level spell and gets to have a black bear skeleton as an animal companion at level 1!

Edit: Oh right the OP. Um, let's see...glitterdust is a pretty ridiculous second-level spell, blind is not fun, Will saves are the lowest of most CR 3 and 4 enemies, and preventing invisibility will screw the lowly rogue even more than being blind will.

Feeblemind is arguably a little too high level. Sure, it lowers two stats to 1 permanently, but it can be dispelled, and those stats aren't really combat-related. (I say that with caution, as my DM heard me comment that once and the next encounter completely nuked the party's spiked-chain tripper by dropping his Int to 1 and removing Improved Trip from the game)

[faceroll]

Idk what you just said but i believe mindrape should be a 1st level spell :3

ANYWAY joking aside:

Animate Dead NEVER made sense to me as a 4th lvl spell >_> (and the material component cost? fk that shyt...) It would be better as a lower level spell (Maybe 2nd or 3rd but 4th!?) and for Thor's sake remove the material cost! (25gp for something your just going to throw away later... yeah fk that shyt...)

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

4 angry faces for this god awful spell (Although i love it...)

It is a lower level spell. For clerics. And the gp cost is to hinder turning every single corpse into a minion.

[Steward]

There's also the issue with Deathwatch. Frankly, it's too powerful and dangerous to be accessible to casters.

[NeoSeraphi]

There's also the issue with Deathwatch. Frankly, it's too powerful and dangerous to be accessible to casters.

To be fair, as an [Evil] spell, it's not accessible to most adventuring parties.

[dextercorvia]

There is a spell from EoE -- Random Deflector(?) that is pretty strong for its level.

[opticalshadow]

Idk what you just said but i believe mindrape should be a 1st level spell :3

ANYWAY joking aside:

Animate Dead NEVER made sense to me as a 4th lvl spell >_> (and the material component cost? fk that shyt...) It would be better as a lower level spell (Maybe 2nd or 3rd but 4th!?) and for Thor's sake remove the material cost! (25gp for something your just going to throw away later... yeah fk that shyt...)

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

4 angry faces for this god awful spell (Although i love it...)

yeah, undead can get rather powerful, really fast. esp at later levels, but some classes get it earlier.

i think lesser shivering touch is a bit low, concidering how easily it can take out most things.

[Steward]

To be fair, as an [Evil] spell, it's not accessible to most adventuring parties.

True, but my main concern here is how early any caster can get it. It's basically an easier to use version of the spell 'Status', but it comes a level earlier. How is that fair? You're basically giving evil characters all of his raw, game-breaking power at 1st level. Maybe making it 9th level is too much, but I think level 3 - 4 is more than fair.

[Getsugaru]

Meteor Swarm shouldn't be a 9th level spell. I think it should be either 6th or 7th. Reason why: when compared to other 9th level spells, it seems a bit...weak. I mean, you could practically get the same results by using certain Metamagic feats on a Fireball. You could also do even more damage using a Widened Prismatic Spray. And that'd still be lower level.

[Zaq]

Dinosaur Stampede deserves to be no higher than 4th. I could see it as a strongish 3rd (definitely no stronger than Haste, but Haste is pretty top-shelf) or a fair-to-middling 4th. As a 6th? Waste of time . . . which is a damn shame, because dude, Dinosaur Stampede.

[Calanon]

It is a lower level spell. For clerics. And the gp cost is to hinder turning every single corpse into a minion.

Isn't that the point? Kill everything. its now your slave until you stop caring about it.

I just want to know why it has to be a higher level spell for Wizards that is all (And "Kill & Raise" tricks don't count as a viable excuse because everyone should know by now that is how you use the spell to its best potential)

Honestly Fell Animate does this but with less of a hassle (Scorching Split Ray Fell Animate or Fell Fireball)



See, the problem here isn't that the spell level is too high, it's that you're playing the wrong class. You should be playing a death mage (Dragon Compendium) which has animate dead as a second-level spell and gets to have a black bear skeleton as an animal companion at level 1!

I'm actually fascinated by this "Death Mage" gotta play it one day

[NeoSeraphi]

True, but my main concern here is how early any caster can get it. It's basically an easier to use version of the spell 'Status', but it comes a level earlier. How is that fair? You're basically giving evil characters all of his raw, game-breaking power at 1st level. Maybe making it 9th level is too much, but I think level 3 - 4 is more than fair.

"Any caster"? It's cleric only, at least that's what the SRD says. I'm not sure though, your argument is "Evil shouldn't get nice things" and that's debatable.

[sonofzeal]

Polar Ray should be 5th level, not 8th.

Enlarge/Reduce should be 2nd level, not 1st.

AMF should be 7th level, not 6th.

Greater Invisibility should be 6th level, not 4th.

Evard's Black Tentacles should be 5th level, not 4th.

Freedom should be 7th level, not 9th.

Energy Drain should be 7th level, not 9th.

[Togath]

True, but my main concern here is how early any caster can get it. It's basically an easier to use version of the spell 'Status', but it comes a level earlier. How is that fair? You're basically giving evil characters all of his raw, game-breaking power at 1st level. Maybe making it 9th level is too much, but I think level 3 - 4 is more than fair.

Dang, I thought you were kidding, deathwatch, to me at least, seems more fitting as a level 0 spell, is barely does anything, and if you’re worried about it being similar to status, status doesn't do much.

condensed version;
Status is probably at best a level 1 or 2 spell in power.
Deathwatch is basically cantrip power level.

[olentu]

There is a spell from EoE -- Random Deflector(?) that is pretty strong for its level.

Hmm off the top of my head Friendly Fire perhaps. Of course that is the only spell I can recall from that book out of hand but it does sound like it might be it.

[Steward]

"Any caster"? It's cleric only, at least that's what the SRD says. I'm not sure though, your argument is "Evil shouldn't get nice things" and that's debatable.


I got no problem with Evil characters getting nice things. I would have the same problem if the spell didn't have the 'Evil' descriptor (and I don't think that it should).

Honestly, from a mechanics perspective the spell isn't problematic. It fills the same niche as Status -- not the same way.


Using the foul sight granted by the powers of unlife

That's pretty scary stuff, isn't it? Is that something that you can trust a 1st level Cleric to be messing with?

I also get the feeling that the spell was intended to be used in conjunction with 'Death Knell' -- ie, you find the dying using Death Watch and you suck them dry with Death Knell, but you get Death Watch slightly too early.

[dextercorvia]

Hmm off the top of my head Friendly Fire perhaps. Of course that is the only spell I can recall from that book out of hand but it does sound like it might be it.

That is the one.

[NeoSeraphi]

Energy Drain should be 7th level, not 9th.

:smalleek: I'm...I'm sorry, what? Energy drain is not a 9th level spell because it's powerful enough to be a 9th level spell, it's a 9th level spell to prevent ridiculous metamagic abuse!

Enervation is bad enough, but if people started tossing around empowered maximized split twinned repeated energy drains...Orcus help us all.

[Zaq]

:smalleek: I'm...I'm sorry, what? Energy drain is not a 9th level spell because it's powerful enough to be a 9th level spell, it's a 9th level spell to prevent ridiculous metamagic abuse!

Enervation is bad enough, but if people started tossing around empowered maximized split twinned repeated energy drains...Orcus help us all.

If you've got enough metamagic reduction mojo to cast "empowered maximized split twinned repeated energy drains" when it's a 7th, you've got enough metamagic reduction mojo to do it when it's a 9th.

And really, Enervation does most of that. I can't think of any situation in which it would be OK to have that pile of metamagic on Enervation but not on Energy Drain.

[Ksheep]

Prestidigitation

[sonofzeal]

:smalleek: I'm...I'm sorry, what? Energy drain is not a 9th level spell because it's powerful enough to be a 9th level spell, it's a 9th level spell to prevent ridiculous metamagic abuse!

Enervation is bad enough, but if people started tossing around empowered maximized split twinned repeated energy drains...Orcus help us all.
Zaq is right, it's simply not enough of an upgrade over Enervation to be worth it. And what you described, even with the lower slot, is a 20th level spell.

In either case, the problem isn't the spell, it's metamagic reducer abuse, which is a separate issue.

[The Mister Guy]

Prestidigitation

...should be a 9th level spell. The abuse with that spell is mindblowing.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you've got enough metamagic reduction mojo to cast "empowered maximized split twinned repeated energy drains" when it's a 7th, you've got enough metamagic reduction mojo to do it when it's a 9th.

And really, Enervation does most of that. I can't think of any situation in which it would be OK to have that pile of metamagic on Enervation but not on Energy Drain.

Well, you're essentially doubling the number of negative levels...1d4 maximized and doubled by both twin and repeated, but if you double the base, you're doubling all of that, so instead of 12+ 1/2 1d4 negative levels, you get 24+ 1/2 2d4 negative levels.

Edit:
What you describe is a 20th level spell. The problem is the reducers, not the level

With the last level of Incantatrix, Arcane Thesis, and a single Practical Metamagic, you reduce that level to 10th, and you can easily push more of that. And by making it 7th level, you get it much earlier (13th or 14th level) so you can start dishing out serious negative levels much faster than you should.

[Zaq]

Well, you specified that the Enervation/Energy Drain is quickened, so we can double both of them by using a normal version after the quickened version. I can't think of anything that would be a problem after 24 + some negative levels that wouldn't be a problem after 48 + some. Anything that's still kicking after 24+ is probably immune. If they're not immune, they're 24 levels down, with everything that implies . . . meaning that they're probably no longer much of a threat. You're going to have to look pretty far and wide to convince me that there's enough things that (1) aren't immune to negative levels, (2) have more than 24 + some HD, (3) have less than 48 + some HD, and most importantly (4) could still be a legitimate threat after sucking down 24 + some negative levels to really make a heavily metamagicked Energy Drain is a problem in a way that a heavily metamagicked Enervation is not. As sonofzeal said, the problem's the metamagic (and its reduction), not the spell.

[Delcor]

...should be a 9th level spell. The abuse with that spell is mindblowing.

Isn't that more up to DM interpretation how powerful it is?

[sonofzeal]

With the last level of Incantatrix, Arcane Thesis, and a single Practical Metamagic, you reduce that level to 10th, and you can easily push more of that. And by making it 7th level, you get it much earlier (13th or 14th level) so you can start dishing out serious negative levels much faster than you should.
Incantatrix is broken all by itself. So is Arcane Thesis. You're not going to convince me a spell is broken just because Incantatrix + Arcane Thesis makes it so. Add those two onto Magic Missile and you can potentially break the game.

But I'm willing to grant I was a bit excessive. I do believe Energy Drain should only be 3 levels higher than Enervation, but the pair could be moved up at least one more step, to 8th and 5th respectively.

[Ksheep]

Isn't that more up to DM interpretation how powerful it is?

Yes, but because of the wording, it's powers can be interpreted to be either mind-blowingly powerful… or so worthless as to not be worth anyone's time. The main problem, however, is that DMs have a tendency to go in favor of more power, leaving us with a horribly broken spell.

[Togath]

Yes, but because of the wording, it's powers can be interpreted to be either mind-blowingly powerful… or so worthless as to not be worth anyone's time. The main problem, however, is that DMs have a tendency to go in favor of more power, leaving us with a horribly broken spell.

what part of it is vague?

edit; here is it's effect, stright from the srd

prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.

[Ksheep]

what part of it is vague?

… Looking over it, I'm trying to remember. There were some loopholes I remember being "exploited", but I can't remember what exactly they were.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised that the main use I remember being used on a regular basis is a house rule, specifically that it can act as a lighter, for lighting torches, camp fires, etc.

[Enterti]

what part of it is vague?

edit; here is it's effect, stright from the srd


There was errata giving it several more effect including a six inch flame in a later book. The name of the book escapes me but it might be tome of magic

[Zaq]

There was errata giving it several more effect including a six inch flame in a later book. The name of the book escapes me but it might be tome of magic

Tome and Blood had a page full of things you could do with Prestidigitation. It's 3.0, so I don't know how valid that list still is, if at all.

[NNescio]

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) the list.

[Togath]

Wow, some of those are pretty powerful for a cantrip, change, dampen, and firefinger mainly, though chill and warm could have torture uses.

[Eldan]

I honestly see Prestidigitation almost always as a flavour tool. I mean, it's just there to show that your guy is a wizard. You could hang your clothes near a fire, but it's more wizardly to cast a spell on them. You could just have a trick coin, like the rogue, but as a mage, that's not your style. The sorcerer doesn't just clean his clothes with soap, he uses a spell. Sure, you could have a flintstone, but why should your warmage use it?

And so on. But yeah, there are ridiculous uses. I think the silliest one I read once was using a bar of some kind of Osmium Alloy and then getting enough mages to cast Prestidigitation to heat it to a temperature hot enough to ignite the atmosphere, since there's apparently no absolute temperature limit, just one per casting of the spell.

[Runestar]

Energy drain should be 8th lv tops, what with a twinned enervation filling an 8th lv slot and all.

Meteor swarm...this spell does pretty good damage when you first get it at lv17 (24d6), but is let down by fire resistance applying 4 times, and its non-scaling nature.

I agree polar ray is too weak as well, most of the time, the higher caster lv cap is irrelevant unless you take advantage of circle magic or something. Too similar to freezing sphere, a 6th lv spell.

I think ice-storm does too little damage to be 4th lv? Though it does have a nice mini-battlefield control effect tacked on.

Circle of death - the 10HD cap makes it quite limiting for a 6th lv spell. By the time an 11th lv wizard can cast it, what are the chances of encountering foes with 10 or fewer HD?

Acid arrow - a tad weak compared to scorching ray, though it does ignore sr, but most of the time, the damage just gets applied too slowly.

Incendiary cloud - I suppose this spell is great for taking down tons of mooks (abused it to great effect in BG2), but averaging 14 fire damage/round, most foes at lv15+ will negate the damage by virtue of resistances alone. :smallannoyed:

In general, I find power word kill too limiting for a 9th lv spell, even if it is a insta-kill spell that does not allow for a save. It should at least be a swift-action spell or something.