half ogre vs. goliath

[beskargam]

so, here's a question.......just on a purely mechanical standpoint, why would anyone want to pick a goliath over a half ogre? is there something I'm missing?

goliath = +4 str +2 con -2 dex....med size but has powerful build, mountain movement. for LA +1

vs....

half ogre= +6 str+2 con -2 dex.....Lg size, 60 ft darkvision, and +4 natural armor.... for +1 LA

so.....i came across these two while building a character for a new campaign, and i have used goliaths before. i happen to be a huge fan of goliaths, but the half ogre seems strictly better....for a melee brute type build.

so again i ask is there something I'm missing? (the theoretical build these races would be used in is a bear totem barbarian2/crusader 18, focused on tripping)

[Togath]

Half ogre is +2LA, which is part of the reason, and goliaths have a few goliath only feats that are fairly powerful.
edit; either could be good for a tripper, you'll get an extra level from goliath though.

[Tvtyrant]

Goliaths have an alternate rage for barbarian that lets them grow in size, so there is that.

[beskargam]

*quickly double checks books.........* for clarification i was referring to the base race, not the template. and my copy of savage species very clearly states at the bottom of the entry that they are +1 LA.


does my copy of SS lie to me? or did i get lucky with a misprint?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I thought RoD's template overrode the base race in SS (it's a half ogre half something), but I may be mistaken. In any event, Half Minotaur blows either one out of the water with +12 str, large size, and other bennies for +1 LA.

[beskargam]

I thought RoD's template overrode the base race in SS (it's a half ogre half something), but I may be mistaken.

does that mean i cant use the base race? am i solely relegated to the template?

[dextercorvia]

I thought RoD's template overrode the base race in SS (it's a half ogre half something), but I may be mistaken. In any event, Half Minotaur blows either one out of the water with +12 str, large size, and other bennies for +1 LA.

RoD has Half-Ogre as a race, which overrides SS. What is less clear is the legality of the Dragon magazine template. That probably is legal.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, figures I was missing something while AFB.

[beskargam]

i have heard of this half Minotaur, which book, pray tell may i find it in?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

i have heard of this half Minotaur, which book, pray tell may i find it in?Dragon Magazine #313

[Jopustopin]

Ol' half-ogre was hopin around
Tokyo city like a big playground
when suddenly goliath burst from his cave
and hit half-ogre with a hand gernade!

[Lord.Sorasen]

For final clarification:

Half-Giant exists 3 times in D&D 3.5. The first time, it's as a race in Savage Species. The next time, it's as an updated race in Races of Destiny. Finally, we see it in Dragon magazine as a template. It should be noted that the bonuses given to half-ogre through the template are outrageous. +12 strength as well as some other things (It's +6 strength plus the +6 from changing size.)

Half-minotaur only exists as a template in dragon magazine. It's stronger than the half-ogre template, for the same +1 LA price.

Also, the goliath has a couple benefits over the half-ogre. One worth noting is that it is not large, and while yes that means losing reach, it's also incredibly helpful for dungeons. Plus have you seen goliath? They are awesome.

I want to note that as an interesting little RAW issue, when applying the half-minotaur/half-ogre template to goliath, they change size and become large... But retain powerful build. This makes the hybrid between an ogre and the smaller goliath bigger than the ogre by a notable degree.

[faceroll]

Half minotaur can be applied to goliath.

[TheCountAlucard]

Half-Giant exists 3 times in D&D 3.5.You mean half-ogre. Also, Savage Species is 3.0 material.

Also, changing size does not, in and of itself, give you +6 Strength. :smallconfused:

[Gwendol]

Yup, a large goliath (by other means than Mountain Rage) typically wield Huge weapons and gains the Huge creature bonuses to STR related checks (tripping, etc). While all the large races, and the goliath, are "immune" to the X person line of spells (Enlarge person, for example), there is a ring of growth in Savage Species, but it costs 18.000 gp.

[faceroll]

Also, changing size does not, in and of itself, give you +6 Strength. :smallconfused:

Correct. It gives +8 strength.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You mean half-ogre. Also, Savage Species is 3.0 material.

Also, changing size does not, in and of itself, give you +6 Strength. :smallconfused:

Indeed, both the Half-Ogre template and the Half-Minotaur template very clearly state, "If the base creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains a size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there." I don't really see any gray area here, not much room for interpretation.

[DeAnno]

In terms of legit 3.5 non Dragon Magazine content, both Half Ogre and Goliath are pretty good as far as level adjusted races go. Generally they serve different purposes: Goliaths can get Knockback and have good strength and such, but the always on natural reach of the Half Ogre appeals to a lot of BFC type melee builds. Investing in Goliath raging is always an option, but usually its cheaper and less of a headache to pay the extra LA unless you needed significant amounts of Barbarian already for some reason or have one or two feats lying around for Extra Rage.

[Runestar]

If we compare a goliath barb with a half-ogre barb,

Both get +6str and large size (though the goliath barb gets this only while raging), -2dex, +2con. The half-ogre suffers some mental stat penalties and has an additional +4NA, but it is debatable if this is worth the additional +1LA.

Summary: Goliath is as balanced/desirable a LA+1 race as it gets, the half-ogre is clearly too strong to be had for LA+1, but seems a tad too weak for LA+2?