Power Ballads - Bard Optimization

[Golden Ladybug]

Hi, Everyone, how are you?

The end of my current campaign will soon be upon me, and from what I've been told by the DM, the next campaign will be taking place in a homebrewed world, which he will not give any details about. We'll be starting at level 8with a single base class (this part was said in the direction of our group's resident Gish player), "limited" magic items and 28 Point Buy. He also told us that we'll likely hit level 20 about 3/4 of the way through the campaign.

I don't know what anyone else is playing, I don't know what we'll be facing, or what we'll be doing. So, I'm going to play a Bard. Because you can't go wrong with Bards.

Heres what I'm thinking of right now, although my CO-fu is fairly supbar.


Race: Catfolk
Ability: Str 10, Dex 18 (+4 from Catfolk), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 22 (+2 from Catfolk, +5 From Level up)

Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Seeker of the Song 2/Virtuoso 2-7

BAB: 11/6
Fort: 5
Ref: 12
Will: 23

Skills: Balance 5
Bluff 23
Dimplomacy 23
Gather Information 12
Intimidate 4
Knowledge [Arcana] 17
Listen 15
Perform [String Instruments, Dance, Sing] 23
Profession [Astrologer] 6
Tumble 20
Spellcraft 6
Sense Motive 6
Use Magic Device 12

And 5.5 Equivalent Ranks in everything else.

Skill Tricks: Social Recovery
Collector of Stories

Feats: 1st - Melodic Casting, Extra Bardic Music [Flaw], Skill Focus [Perform] [Flaw]
3rd: Song of the Heart
6th: Lingering Song
9th: Obtain Familiar
12th: Versatile Performer [Dance and Sing]
15th: Jack of All Trades
18th: Force of Personality

Flaws: Vulnerable, Murky-eyed

-Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge
-Spellbreaker Song instead of Countersong
-Healing Hymn instead of Fascinate (Maybe, I don't know exactly how it works, but I get Fascinate for free off of Virtuoso, so...)

Masterwork Fiddle [With a +1 Instrument Blade 1d4 19-20/x2] +2 Circumstance Bonus on Perform, +2 Morale Bonus against Fear and Charm for Inspire Courage

What I'm going for here is a Generalist Bard; I want to be able to fulfill any role in the party well enough to plug any holes that come up. Bardic Knack will give me 5.5 Ranks in every skill, so I can function alright as a Skill Monkey, and I can use my plentiful skillpoints per level to develop the important things. Sublime Chord and Virtuoso let me develop my Spellcasting ability to 8th level spells. Seeker of the Song lets me combine my Musical Abilities to get some interesting effects, while still casting spells with Melodic Casting.

But, that said, I'm not the best at Character Optimization, so any help you guys can give me is hugely appreciated. I'm fine to change pretty much any aspects of this character, really. Until I give it a name, its just numbers :smallwink:

I have access to the Core Books, PHBII, Unearthed Arcana, CAdv, CW, CS, CArc, CD, RoD and RotW, but if you can give me a rundown of Feats or whatever that appear outside of them I can probably get the OK from my DM.

[Gwendol]

For feats I would propose melodic casting, since it lets you cast spells while performing, and you get to roll a performance check instead of concentration checks, thus dropping the need for investing valuable skill points in concentration.
You probably want to look at ways to optimize Inspire Courage/Dragonfire inspiration. Song of the heart (Eberron) is a popular choice.
A badge of valor from the magic item compendium is a solid investment.

Another popular choice is snowflake wardance, to get a kind of bardic (dance-) rage.

[Corlindale]

A pretty standard trick is to follow up Sublime Chord with the Virtuoso PRC from CAdv, because it allows you to advance both bardic music and sublime chord spellcasting.

Seeker is not that powerful, but I agree that it's cool fluff-wise, and after all you have the levels to spare.

I've always though Lyric Thaumaturge from Complete Mage was a cool bard PRC as well - unfortunately it doesn't really play nice with Sublime Chord at all. But if you could manage to fit 5 levels of it in along with high level Chord-casting you could become a pretty powerful blaster with a sonic damage focus.

[Golden Ladybug]

For feats I would propose melodic casting, since it lets you cast spells while performing, and you get to roll a performance check instead of concentration checks, thus dropping the need for investing valuable skill points in concentration.
You probably want to look at ways to optimize Inspire Courage/Dragonfire inspiration. Song of the heart (Eberron) is a popular choice.
A badge of valor from the magic item compendium is a solid investment.

Another popular choice is snowflake wardance, to get a kind of bardic (dance-) rage.



Yeah, I like the sound of Melodic Casting. Making a Perform Check rather than a Concentration check to keep up Combine Songs would be better, as well as using my Spells.

And doing all that at once is pretty cool, as well. Improvisation > Dirge Of Frozen Loss Refrain + Inspire Courage anyone? Its from Complete Mage, isn't it? If thats the case, I'm fairly certain I'd be allowed to use it.

I'll see if my DM allows things from the Eberron setting, but after looking up Song of the Heart just then, I'm thinking its pretty cool and I should probably use it.

Snowflake Wardance is interesting. I think I'll leave it at that.

I don't actually know what the Badge of Valor does :smallfrown: I have access to the Spell compedium, but unfortunately not the Magic Item.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions :smallsmile:

[Golden Ladybug]

A pretty standard trick is to follow up Sublime Chord with the Virtuoso PRC from CAdv, because it allows you to advance both bardic music and sublime chord spellcasting.

Seeker is not that powerful, but I agree that it's cool fluff-wise, and after all you have the levels to spare.

I've always though Lyric Thaumaturge from Complete Mage was a cool bard PRC as well - unfortunately it doesn't really play nice with Sublime Chord at all. But if you could manage to fit 5 levels of it in along with high level Chord-casting you could become a pretty powerful blaster with a sonic damage focus.

Oh, is that why people do that? I never really understood the Bard Builds of people taking a single level of Virtuoso, then 2 Sublime Chord, and then back to Virtuoso. Clever. Methinks I'll try it out.

Yeah, I know Seeker of the Song is never going to win any "best PrC" awards, but I like it for the utility it offers. Being able to Heal, Combine Bardic Music effects and sling relatively high damage around makes it appealing for my purposes though.

Lyric Thaumaturge, eh? I'll look it up and see if I could juggle some stuff around to make it fit, if it looks worth it.

EDIT: So Lyric Thaumaturge gets extra spells and slots for them, pumps illusions from the Bard list up, as well as letting me fire off a Shout at 9d6? Well, I suppose that pretty cool. Does the Bardic Music progression let you aquire new songs, or just give you more uses per day?

[Corlindale]

Unfortunately it just gives you uses per day, it doesn't advance music as such. So it might not be worth it depending on how much you're going to use the Sonic ability (the extra spells are not as crucial since you are going Sublime Chord anyway), Chord + Virtuoso gives you both powerful spells and better music, after all.

[Golden Ladybug]

Yeah, thats true. I think its the superior PrC if you have a limit of one, without a doubt, but since Bards can mix and match to get their spells and music progressing the way they want it to, Lyric Thaumaturge falls by the wayside a bit :smallfrown:

And besides, even with the ability to Deafen opponents, Shout is still outdamaged by Dirge of Frozen Loss for the same cost of one Bardic Music use, with the benefit of not requiring a spell slot.

[Optimator]

This should help you out. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0) As far as being a generalist goes, perhaps straight Bard with a two-level dip into Seeker of the Song for double music.

[Keld Denar]

Badass bard chick with a fiddle?
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a219/deathbylahar/Terrible_Things/1270351665349.jpg

I'd move Melodic Casting up to 1st level. The ability to make Perform checks in place of Concentration checks is incredibly useful. If you take it at 1st, you never really need to put ranks in Concentration, EVER. That means that the feat is effectively giving you +1 skill point/level, a pretty good deal.

Really, skip the Seeker. If you really want to heal big, nab Lim Wish off the Wizard list at 15 and use it to cast Heal off the Adept list. The Heal spell gets more than just HP, but only use it in an emergency since Lim Wish costs you some XP. You want the casting from Sublime Chord. Trust me.

One thing I like to deepen your pool of casting is to take Lyric Spell (CAdventurer). You can burn X+1 musics to cast an X level spell. This works off your Sublime Chord casting as well. You generally only need 3-5 musics per day, meaning that the other 15-20 musics are dead weight. Use them for something. In that case, Extra Music gives you an extra 3rd level spell per day, or 2 1st level spells, or half of a 7th level spell. Thats a pretty clever investment of those extra resources.

In conclusion, at low levels, your most powerful ability is gonna be your music. IC is awesome, and you can amp it up reasonably well to keep you company throughout the low levels while your casting is weak. Once you start down the Sublime path, however, you are now a full caster. Find the 5th and 6th level Bard spells that are lower level than their Wizard equivalents and learn them. Cast Greater Dispel Magic from 5th level slots, or Otto's Irresistable Dance from a 6th. Casting will save your day at high levels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So You Want To Be A Bard...

First off... what *kind* of bard do you wish to be? There's all sorts. However, it seems like you're wanting to focus on IC. That's a lot of fun. Here's how to make it moreso:

* Dragonfire Inspiration. Learn it, love it, live it. Anything in the party that is hitting things... hits it a lot harder.

* IC boosters. There's plenty of threads about optimizing IC, but basically get yourself a Vest of Legends, a Badge of Valor, a MW Mandolin, and the feat Song of the Heart.

* Alternate Class Features. Facinate sucks. Replace it with Healing Hymn (Complete Champion) for a definite boost to your healing.

Now then, do you want to inspire legions? Then, my friend, you are wanting War Chanter (from Complete Warrior). Read the capstone ability. Everyone's BAB is now equal to your HD. Have fun, go mad.

[Gwendol]

I'd also suggest getting the Spellbreaker song ACF instead of Countersong (which is not used much): it gives all enemy spellcasters within 30' a 20% chance of spell failure for spells with a verbal component (song can be maintained for three rounds).

[Golden Ladybug]

Badass bard chick with a fiddle?
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a219/deathbylahar/Terrible_Things/1270351665349.jpg

I'd move Melodic Casting up to 1st level. The ability to make Perform checks in place of Concentration checks is incredibly useful. If you take it at 1st, you never really need to put ranks in Concentration, EVER. That means that the feat is effectively giving you +1 skill point/level, a pretty good deal.

Really, skip the Seeker. If you really want to heal big, nab Lim Wish off the Wizard list at 15 and use it to cast Heal off the Adept list. The Heal spell gets more than just HP, but only use it in an emergency since Lim Wish costs you some XP. You want the casting from Sublime Chord. Trust me.

One thing I like to deepen your pool of casting is to take Lyric Spell (CAdventurer). You can burn X+1 musics to cast an X level spell. This works off your Sublime Chord casting as well. You generally only need 3-5 musics per day, meaning that the other 15-20 musics are dead weight. Use them for something. In that case, Extra Music gives you an extra 3rd level spell per day, or 2 1st level spells, or half of a 7th level spell. Thats a pretty clever investment of those extra resources.

In conclusion, at low levels, your most powerful ability is gonna be your music. IC is awesome, and you can amp it up reasonably well to keep you company throughout the low levels while your casting is weak. Once you start down the Sublime path, however, you are now a full caster. Find the 5th and 6th level Bard spells that are lower level than their Wizard equivalents and learn them. Cast Greater Dispel Magic from 5th level slots, or Otto's Irresistable Dance from a 6th. Casting will save your day at high levels.

Why yes, I will be playing a Badass Bard (cat)chick with a Fiddle. I'm expecting it to go amazingly, regardless of what happens :smallbiggrin:

Since I'm starting at Level 8-3000xp (level buyoff), the order isn't incredibly important, but I agree with you there, Melodic Casting is very important. I'll move them around.

I quite like the options Seeker of the Song gives me, though. Its not the most powerful Prestige on the Block, but Combine Songs especially is very powerful. I have also been able to pull my weight with the Refrain Dirge of Frozen Loss in Previous Campaigns when I played Seeker of The Song, by dealing Damage and Debuffing, but its really Combine Songs that makes it so appealing (Song of Life is great, but I wouldn't be completely shattered if I can't use it).

I'll consider Lyric Spell, although I'm not really a big fan of it. Its powerful, but I'm not a fan of burning resources as powerful as my Bardic Music for a single spell. Like I said, I'm starting at almost Level 8, so I can take it at 9, or even 12, if I'm consistantly having spare Musics to burn after every encounter. You're right about the Synergy with Extra Music though. An extra Glibness, or more Improvisations per day is a very powerful resource. Maybe.


So You Want To Be A Bard...

First off... what *kind* of bard do you wish to be? There's all sorts. However, it seems like you're wanting to focus on IC. That's a lot of fun. Here's how to make it moreso:

* Dragonfire Inspiration. Learn it, love it, live it. Anything in the party that is hitting things... hits it a lot harder.

* IC boosters. There's plenty of threads about optimizing IC, but basically get yourself a Vest of Legends, a Badge of Valor, a MW Mandolin, and the feat Song of the Heart.

* Alternate Class Features. Facinate sucks. Replace it with Healing Hymn (Complete Champion) for a definite boost to your healing.

Now then, do you want to inspire legions? Then, my friend, you are wanting War Chanter (from Complete Warrior). Read the capstone ability. Everyone's BAB is now equal to your HD. Have fun, go mad.

Well, my first impulse is to say a Generalist. I have no idea what the rest of the Party is going to be doing, so I just wanted to cover all bases; So, I tried to build a Competent Buffer, a Decent Caster, a Decent Healer and an okay Melee or Ranged combatant.

Inspire Courage is a large part of that, as is Inspire Greatness. Using those two together with Combine Songs, and casting spells at the same time using Melodic Casting, well, I think thats amazing for a Support Character. Being able to do that is one of the biggest reasons, other than the awesome fluff, that I'm taking levels in Seeker of the Song.

If the Magic Items aren't too 'Limited' for me to aquire a Vest of Legends or a Badge of Valor, I'll definitely use them. And I've never really used Fascinate anyway; I prefer to cast Glibness with a huge Bluff skill and use the Epic Instill Suggestion ability regardless. Practical? No. Incredibly Awesome when it works? Oh, god yes.

I have no illusions about my chance of getting Dragonfire Inspiration on this build. Last time one of our gaming group used things from Dragon Magic we got a Mini Pun-Pun somehow :smalleek:

Since then Dragon Magic and the other Splatbooks focusing on Dragons have been blanket banned in our games :smallbiggrin:


I'd also suggest getting the Spellbreaker song ACF instead of Countersong (which is not used much): it gives all enemy spellcasters within 30' a 20% chance of spell failure for spells with a verbal component (song can be maintained for three rounds).

Thats sounds pretty good actually. Countersong has been rather underwhelming for me in the past, and any chance of an enemy caster not being able to blow up the world is a good thing. Besides, Combine Songs let me keep buffing my Team while I disadvantage the enemy.

Thanks for all the Suggestions guys :smallbiggrin:

[Greyfell]

if you wish to get combined songs, don't forget it's also available from Warchanter (com warrior) at level 5. along with the fun stuff Shneeky mentioned already.

for IC optimizing, I highly recommend a wand of "Inspirational Boost" from spell comp.

I've played a bard/lyrical thaum/sublime chord recently, and the combination of melodic casting, lyrical spell, and all your other bard tricks while still wearing light armor and using a decent weapon? Priceless.

[Golden Ladybug]

if you wish to get combined songs, don't forget it's also available from Warchanter (com warrior) at level 5. along with the fun stuff Shneeky mentioned already.

for IC optimizing, I highly recommend a wand of "Inspirational Boost" from spell comp.

I've played a bard/lyrical thaum/sublime chord recently, and the combination of melodic casting, lyrical spell, and all your other bard tricks while still wearing light armor and using a decent weapon? Priceless.

Yeah, thats true, but Seeker of the Song is a quicker way of getting it, and I'd need to take 10 levels of War Chanter to get Inspire Legions. Its an amazing Prestige Class, certainly, but I think I'll have to use it on a different occasion.

On that note, if I have my Familiar (a Raven, because I don't have the space for Improved Familiar) floating above my shouldier, holding a Wand of Inspirational Boost in one Claw, and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds in the other, would it be able to cast Inspirational Boost, and then use the Share Spells ability to channel it to me?

[Golden Ladybug]

Aha, just got an Email from my group's GM, giving us the rules for this campaign. In short, we'll be starting at level 8, barring level buyoff, with only one Base Class. We're allowed only one Magic Item of any sort each. Besides what we spend on equipment and our Magic Item, we'll only have 200gp to spend at the start.

And we're allowed to only take one Prestige Class. Well, rats.

I'll keep this build for some other time, but it looks like I'm going to be playing Bard 14/Lyric Thaumaturge 6 for this Campaign.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone, it's been great :smallredface:

Now, I've got to see whether I can make my Instrument Blade's threat range big enough to justify making a Vorpal Fiddle...

[MikolasTheAngry]

Vorpal Fiddle

...Don't you usually hold a fiddle by your neck when you play it? :smalleek:

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, Complete Scoundrel offers hidden blades for an instrument, which go in the Instruments neck. So, the part that would be Vorpal is the Blade inside my Fiddle's neck (the bit you hold). I just flip it out and start slashing people with it. I could potentially make the blade Harmonising as well :smallcool:

So, I could potentially ditch all other weapons and attack using only my Fiddle. Probably take Weapon Finesse to get my Dex bonus on my Instrument Blade, and then go to town. With a Vorpal Harmonising Fiddle.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Well, Complete Scoundrel offers hidden blades for an instrument, which go in the Instruments neck. So, the part that would be Vorpal is the Blade inside my Fiddle's neck (the bit you hold). I just flip it out and start slashing people with it. I could potentially make the blade Harmonising as well :smallcool:

So, I could potentially ditch all other weapons and attack using only my Fiddle. Probably take Weapon Finesse to get my Dex bonus on my Instrument Blade, and then go to town. With a Vorpal Harmonising Fiddle.

Look up feycraft in DMG2! :D

[Golden Ladybug]

I love this Feycraft Harmonising Vorpal Fiddle so much!

Thanks Dictum Mortuum :smallredface:

P.S. Great work on all the guides you've done. They're really helpful :smallwink: