Feat Choices for Swift Hunter

[prufock]

I'm building a human swift hunter (Scout 5/Ranger 12/Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 1) using ranged Combat Style. Wondering about my feat choices, with a specific question.

Feats (in no particular order)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Knowledge Devotion
Travel Devotion
Swift Hunter
Greater Manyshot
Woodland Archer
Improved Favored Enemy
Weapon Focus (Fighter bonus)
Improved Skirmish (Scout bonus)

The question is, am I better off dropping Weapon Focus, PBS, and Precise Shot to pick up Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run? I can see the SotR build working from a bit more distance. With 60' movement per round, I can essentially stay outside charge range, move in, shoot (using Rapid Shot + Travel Devotion), and move back out of charge range.

I know Weapon Focus is not a great use of a feat, and neither is PBS really, but should I just soak the -4 from Precise Shot to pick up two OTHER virtually useless feats just to get Shot on the Run?

Also any general comments are welcome.

EDIT: Should point out, built to 19th level if that wasn't clear. Sources: Any official WotC books with exceptions: No campaign-specific material (FR, Eberron, Dragonlance, etc), no magazines, no psionics.

EDIT: Okay, just remembered I need PBS to qualify for Shot on the Run. Making it an even worse choice. Any feats there I could lose if I were to go down this road, or is it a lost cause?

[deuxhero]

SotAO is FR only right?

[Greenish]

What do you think Shot on the Run will give you that you don't already have?

[prufock]

What do you think Shot on the Run will give you that you don't already have?

The ability to skirmish while staying out of melee range. Skirmish activates only within 30'. Normal charge range is 60', so the idea is move 20 (putting me just inside 30') - fire - move 40' (putting me more than 60' away). I have move speed of 60'. If they move toward me, second round I move 20' - fire - move 40' in a straight line, again putting me outside a 60' charge range.

EDIT: The more I think about it the less attractive this sounds. There are a lot of ways around this tactic (tactical teleportation, faster movement speeds, reach weapons).


SotAO is FR only right?
Yeah.

[Greenish]

The ability to skirmish while staying out of melee range.How is Shot on the Run going to help you with that?

You can already do Move (60 ft.) -> Manyshot -> Travel Devotion (60 ft.). With SotR, you'd be doing the same, except you'd move less and could only shoot one measly arrow a round.

[ZombiePunch]

Get ranged skirmisher
Apply skirmish damage to opponents within 60 feet instead of 30

[prufock]

How is Shot on the Run going to help you with that?

You can already do Move (60 ft.) -> Manyshot -> Travel Devotion (60 ft.). With SotR, you'd be doing the same, except you'd move less and could only shoot one measly arrow a round.

I may have been under a misapprehension here. I thought Travel Devotion didn't allow another movement in the same round, but reading it again it's only 5-foot steps that are disallowed.

The other thing I was thinking was that with Travel Devotion, I could get off 6 arrows (rapid + speed weapon) instead of 4 in between my move, but I'm not sure you can do that with SotR.

Okay, sticking with what I've got here, unless you have any other suggestions.


Get ranged skirmisher
Apply skirmish damage to opponents within 60 feet instead of 30
Looked it up, apparently that's Dragon Mag, specifically not allowed in my sources. Otherwise it would be awesome.

[Greenish]

The other thing I was thinking was that with Travel Devotion, I could get off 6 arrows (rapid + speed weapon) instead of 4 in between my move, but I'm not sure you can do that with SotR.Well, if you spend full round action, but then you can't move back beyond the charge range after shooting (assuming you moved into range with TD to activate your Skirmish).

And, as mentioned, SotR doesn't allow for full attack, or even standard action (such as Manyshot). You shoot one arrow.

[Big Fau]

I'm going to agree with those saying you should dump SotR. It isn't worth the feat slot or the effort. Secondly, doesn't Ranger give you some of your Archery feats for free? Third, the Fighter level isn't worth it. Weapon Focus is not a good feat.

Fourth, seeing as you are dipping Cleric, why not do the whole-hog and go Prestige Ranger instead of normal one? Human Cloistered Cleric 2/Scout 4/Prestige Ranger 14 is a really good build that gets 5th level spells, near-full Skirmish, Knowledge Devotion (in and of itself 5 times better than Weapon Focus), and Ranged combat like a boss.

[awa]

a prestige ranger is not a ranger check with your dm to see if swift hunter works

[prufock]

I'm going to agree with those saying you should dump SotR. It isn't worth the feat slot or the effort. Secondly, doesn't Ranger give you some of your Archery feats for free? Third, the Fighter level isn't worth it. Weapon Focus is not a good feat.
Yeah, I think I've decided to forget about Shot on the Run. Too feat-expensive, not enough payoff.

I didn't list the Combat Mastery feats, but yes, you get Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot from ranger levels.

Yeah, Weapon Focus is not good. I wasn't really sure what to do with that spare level though. Ranger 13 gives me Camouflage and BAB, which is okay but still not spectacular; Scout 6 gives Flawless Stride, BAB, and +1 all saves, which is a bit better. However neither advances skirmish or favoured enemy. But then, either would probably be better than Fighter 1 with Weapon Focus.

Is there a better fighter bonus feat worth taking there? Improved Initiative never hurts, I guess, though there are probably better things I could do with the feat (or the level).


Fourth, seeing as you are dipping Cleric, why not do the whole-hog and go Prestige Ranger instead of normal one? Human Cloistered Cleric 2/Scout 4/Prestige Ranger 14 is a really good build that gets 5th level spells, near-full Skirmish, Knowledge Devotion (in and of itself 5 times better than Weapon Focus), and Ranged combat like a boss.
Well, I DO have Knowledge Devotion. It's one of my favourite feats. As to the other point:


a prestige ranger is not a ranger check with your dm to see if swift hunter works
Essentially this. RAW, Prestige Ranger is a separate class from Ranger, and Swift Hunter doesn't apply, as far as I'm aware. Granted, DM might waive this, but I try to build characters based on RAW.

[Big Fau]

Well, I DO have Knowledge Devotion. It's one of my favourite feats. As to the other point:


Essentially this. RAW, Prestige Ranger is a separate class from Ranger, and Swift Hunter doesn't apply, as far as I'm aware. Granted, DM might waive this, but I try to build characters based on RAW.

At least ask. Having 5th level spells (with Practiced Spellcaster, obviously) would really help you out. You don't even need to cast stuff like Divine Power (seeing as you'll have 16 BAB anyway), so you can save your spell slots for long-duration buffs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Travel Devotion can also be used to blow your swift action to move at least 10' and activate skirmish so you don't use Manyshot, but a full attack. This saves from having to pick up Improved Manyshot to be able to get your skirmish damage on every shot instead of just the first one.

You're going to need a dip in something with turn attempts to continue fueling it, though. Fortunately, a cleric dip nets you not only the turn attempts, but knowledge and travel devotions!

[Darrin]

Yeah, Weapon Focus is not good. I wasn't really sure what to do with that spare level though.


For feats, I like Improved Rapid Shot. EWP: Bone Bow is also nice (Frostburn, basically a composite greatbow that auto-adjusts to your Str bonus).

Consider taking two levels of Highland Stalker for +1d6 Skirmish damage. Otherwise, see if Whirling Frenzy is available (UA) and dip a level of Barbarian for that.

[Cieyrin]

You're going to need a dip in something with turn attempts to continue fueling it, though. Fortunately, a cleric dip nets you not only the turn attempts, but knowledge and travel devotions!

There's a bit of a misconception with sacing Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion, in that you want the domain so you can have access to all knowledge skills to power Knowledge Devotion. I bring it up due to this specific clause:


Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Emphasis mine. Trading out Knowledge domain gets you just one Knowledge skill as a class skill from Knowledge Devotion. In this particular case, it works out, due to Ranger and normal Cleric providing all the monster lore skills except Local, which Knowledge Devotion can open up. ...hurray, I invalidated my entire argument. Carry on, while I go beat my way through a wall with my apparently thick skull.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a bit of a misconception with sacing Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion, in that you want the domain so you can have access to all knowledge skills to power Knowledge Devotion. I bring it up due to this specific clause:



Emphasis mine. Trading out Knowledge domain gets you just one Knowledge skill as a class skill from Knowledge Devotion. In this particular case, it works out, due to Ranger and normal Cleric providing all the monster lore skills except Local, which Knowledge Devotion can open up. ...hurray, I invalidated my entire argument. Carry on, while I go beat my way through a wall with my apparently thick skull.

Between Scout and Ranger, he's got all the knowledge skills he needs.

No, I'm not saying he retains all knowledges, I'm saying he's already *GOT* all the relevant knowledges, so you might as well get free damage out of them.

[elonin]

Are domains and devotions interchangable? Also, who do you use knowledge local against? And do you have to make the knowledge check to identify the critter in order to get the bonus? Also seems to me that needing planes, dungeneering, arcana, religion is a hit to skill points.

[Greenish]

Are domains and devotions interchangable?You can swap domains into devotion feats, yeah.


Also, who do you use knowledge local against?Humanoids.


And do you have to make the knowledge check to identify the critter in order to get the bonus?No.


Also seems to me that needing planes, dungeneering, arcana, religion is a hit to skill points.Yes.

[elonin]

Thanks. Where are the knowledge devotion feats at? Also, don't you need to use turning attempts to power the travel devotion? Doesn't seem like enough to base a build arround.

[Greenish]

Where are the knowledge devotion feats at?Devotion feats are from CChamp. Knowledge Devotion is but one of them, most core domains have their own.


Also, don't you need to use turning attempts to power the travel devotion?1/day it's free, getting more requires turning attempts (which the build has).


Doesn't seem like enough to base a build arround.Maybe that's why the build is based around swift hunter chassis.

[elonin]

Devotion feats are from CChamp. Knowledge Devotion is but one of them, most core domains have their own.

1/day it's free, getting more requires turning attempts (which the build has).

Maybe that's why the build is based around swift hunter chassis.

Thanks again. I've been trying to make scout ->dervish work but it didn't. Swift hunter does seem to be heads and shoulders above my other ideas. Travel devotion by itself is meaningless without the context of swift hunter. I need to be more careful in my posting.

My point is that even with 1+turning attempts this will run out during a typical adventuring day. Taking extra turning uses up already needed feats, while charisma would normally be a dump stat for this build. On the other hand it is useful for activating improved skirmish, expeditious dodge etc.

[Big Fau]

My point is that even with 1+turning attempts this will run out during a typical adventuring day.

No it won't. Travel Devotion's effect lasts a whole minute after you first activate it. If you can't end an encounter in 10 rounds, then your party is seriously underpowered or your DM likes fudging HP.

You only need to activate it 4-6 times each day, so you need around 6 or 10 turn attempts to keep it up for most of your encounters. A Cha of 16 and a Nightstick (both easily attained by 9th level, which Swift Hunters are in full-swing) is more than enough.

[elonin]

No it won't. Travel Devotion's effect lasts a whole minute after you first activate it. If you can't end an encounter in 10 rounds, then your party is seriously underpowered or your DM likes fudging HP.

You only need to activate it 4-6 times each day, so you need around 6 or 10 turn attempts to keep it up for most of your encounters. A Cha of 16 and a Nightstick (both easily attained by 9th level, which Swift Hunters are in full-swing) is more than enough.

Thought that each use was 1 round per level. That's what I get for talking about something without reading the material first. In my earlier posts I mentioned not knowing the difference between domain and devotion. That's becasue I don't have access to the feat.

At first blush a 16 is steep for what is otherwise a dump stat, though that only requires a 12 which isn't so bad.

[Big Fau]

Thought that each use was 1 round per level. That's what I get for talking about something without reading the material first. In my earlier posts I mentioned not knowing the difference between domain and devotion. That's becasue I don't have access to the feat.

At first blush a 16 is steep for what is otherwise a dump stat, though that only requires a 12 which isn't so bad.

If you know your DM well enough, you may be able to get away with just a 14 and a Nightstick or Extra Turning feat (or both).

[Godskook]

On subbing knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, don't do that. Sub the inqusition or mind domains for knowledge devotion, and have *BOTH*. Ah the beauties of the cloistered cleric dip.

[Big Fau]

On subbing knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, don't do that. Sub the inqusition or mind domains for knowledge devotion, and have *BOTH*. Ah the beauties of the cloistered cleric dip.

Well, it really doesn't matter since he's got the class skills needed to have all of the important Knowledges available to him.

[Godskook]

Well, it really doesn't matter since he's got the class skills needed to have all of the important Knowledges available to him.

Without Able Learner(Which I strongly recommend to the OP), I don't see the validity of this point. Each and every level you can afford to dump skill points into knowledges at 1:1 ratio is better than not, at least if you're not losing something huge from another Domain.

Besides, either I missed something the OP said, or this build is *HORRIBLY* short on knowledge skills outside the Knowledge Domain, since Ranger and Scout get the exact 3 options, only 2 of which are Devotion related, and they don't even cover the 3* biggest late-game threats or the most common** enemy type in a 'standard' campaign.

*The big 3 being Dragons, Demons/Devils and Liches
**Humanoids, via Know(Local). Yeah, scouts don't even get Know(local)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Without Able Learner(Which I strongly recommend to the OP), I don't see the validity of this point. Each and every level you can afford to dump skill points into knowledges at 1:1 ratio is better than not, at least if you're not losing something huge from another Domain.

Besides, either I missed something the OP said, or this build is *HORRIBLY* short on knowledge skills outside the Knowledge Domain, since Ranger and Scout get the exact 3 options, only 2 of which are Devotion related, and they don't even cover the 3* biggest late-game threats or the most common** enemy type in a 'standard' campaign.

*The big 3 being Dragons, Demons/Devils and Liches
**Humanoids, via Know(Local). Yeah, scouts don't even get Know(local)

You get Arcana, The Planes, and Religion from Cloistered Cleric... not because of the Knowledge domain, but because all clerics get it. That solves your 'big three' right there. Knowledge Local can be picked up with Urban Ranger.

[Godskook]

You get Arcana, The Planes, and Religion from Cloistered Cleric... not because of the Knowledge domain, but because all clerics get it. That solves your 'big three' right there. Knowledge Local can be picked up with Urban Ranger.

Doh, forgot to check the Cleric's list.

Still, OP, I'd grab Able Learner for the ability to keep your skills up as needed, and that's not just useful for knowledges. There's quite a few skills that you'll want to grab ranks in that're cross-class(Autohypnosis is handy to have a rank or two in, UMD is godly, etc, etc).

[Cieyrin]

You get Arcana, The Planes, and Religion from Cloistered Cleric... not because of the Knowledge domain, but because all clerics get it. That solves your 'big three' right there. Knowledge Local can be picked up with Urban Ranger.

...or, since Knowledge Devotion gives you an Adaptive Skill for a Knowledge of your choice, you could just pick Knowledge(Local) as that choice and, regardless of Able Learner, it'll always be a class skill regardless of class. Use what we already have.

[Greenish]

Travel devotion by itself is meaningless without the context of swift hunter.Moving your speed as a swift action is hardly "meaningless" for anyone.


My point is that even with 1+turning attempts this will run out during a typical adventuring day. Taking extra turning uses up already needed feats, while charisma would normally be a dump stat for this build. On the other hand it is useful for activating improved skirmish, expeditious dodge etc.If you have turning, and want extra uses of Travel Devotion, you'd take Extra Turning (+4 TU attempts -> +2 uses of TD). Even with just 12 Cha, though, you'd have enough for three encounters a day.

[prufock]

Thanks people, got it figured out now.